Do you utilize a vault service for your cards?
 

Do you utilize a vault service for your cards? If yes, why?

No

"If no, why?"

I am not ready to view my cards as strictly an asset.

Brian

No, and I don't plan to.

Can someone sum up what the vault service is for? I don't understand the concept.

It is for legally avoiding paying taxes. At least that is my take on it, from all of the marketing I have seen. And it could be convenient if you are a flipper, I guess. And of course the Vault owner is going to want to sell the cards *as mentioned below.

edited for clarification
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I don’t use vault services. I don’t want any third party having control of my cards….that’s just me. Don’t buy online so the sales tax is no big deal to me. I also don’t utilize auctions to sell my cards so another no-big deal for me.
The way I see things the concept is to save you the sales tax burden while giving you their platform as a most likely first place you use when you sell or there are obligations to the said platform first and foremost. So an auction house offering this isn’t just doing it for your benefit, trust me it’s working for them. They’re benefiting. Never underestimate the power and reach of fancy marketing.

When I buy something I possess it. End of story.

No thank you. And if I owe sales tax on a purchase, so be it.

Vaults are all the rage these days. Anybody who’s anybody has a vault. All the cool kids are getting one. Off the top of my head, I can think of 3, although there’s probably another dozen or so other vaults out there:

1) PWCC - pretty sure they started advertising about 2 years before they actually launched it. They might have been the first vault.

2) eBay

3) Goldin/Collector’s Universe

Not surprised that there aren’t many vault users around here, at least few who want to admit it.

I suspect that the charms of the vault are mostly lost on this crowd:

1) Avoid paying sales tax. I suspect that if someone around here is into the vault, this is probably a big factor. I understand that the vaults are all located in states with no sales tax, so if you ship your items there when you buy off eBay or another site that charges sales tax, you avoid it this way. Being in Oregon with zero sales tax, this isn’t a factor for me.

2) No shipping if you’re buying from the same platform. So if you’re buying from PWCC and sending to the PWCC vault then you pay no shipping. I think I’ve heard a similar pitch from the other vaults, so I’m pretty sure this is a thing.

3) Discounted fees if you sell your vault items through their channel. Discount varies depending on the venue, but could be attractive, particularly if you’re buying an item with the intent to flip it in the near future.

4) You don’t have to pay for storage and insurance, or at least maybe less. Each vault has somewhat different cost structure. My recollection is that early on, most of the vaults were advertising very low fees. And then because I think they weren’t getting many takers, to incentivize people to use it, they have switched to lower and/or no fees. They advertise that your items are safe in fancy bank-like vaults with lots of security. And they claim to be insured.

5) You can borrow cold hard cash against your items. Some/most/all of these vaults offer a lending program. My experience is that the loans are pretty short term. And they’re not cheap. You can usually only borrow a fraction of what your item is worth. But I guess if you want more debt in your life, this gives you a chance to go out and buy more items without having to sell the ones you just bought.

6) They take some nice fancy pictures of your items, and you can enjoy them that way. Who needs to see it in person when you have a nice picture instead!!???

Not surprisingly, I don’t use a vault. I could see the sales tax as a factor if I didn’t live in Oregon. Obviously I’m not a fan of not having, holding, and enjoying my items in person. Almost everything that I buy is something that I’m planning to hold for decades. Even if I do list it as available for sale, because I’m asking museum prices most of the time, I don’t actually expect anyone to actually buy it.

And fundamentally, I don’t trust any of these vaults to actually take care of my collection. I think there are a lot of unresolved issues around what happens if the company goes under or suffers from a big robbery, and whether I can really get my items back, or whether I would be a beneficiary under the insurance. For a big shop, maybe it doesn’t seem quite as scary, but even big shops have failed in the recent past, with insalubrious effects for anyone who entrusted their stuff to that shop.

So thanks but no thanks. For a flipper, the vault might seem more exciting. And maybe just maybe the sales tax exemption is enough where you might use it sometimes. Just until you can ship it to your cousin who lives in a state with no sales tax.

The sales tax thing is mostly BS. UNLESS you never take possession of the card and the vault owner sells it for you, or you leave the card there for a long time probably six months or more, you still owe your home state a use tax when you get the card. Of course, that doesn't mean it doesn't make it easier to evade (not avoid) taxes, it does.

Right. I’ve heard stories from others that if you try to get your items out of the vault shortly after acquisition, then you have to pay the sales tax anyway. Not sure if there is a time limit for how long you need to leave them in, or if your only hope is to sell directly from the vault, or eventually ship to a state with no sales tax.

I get the concept, I get being an investor, and I get avoiding as many taxes as one legally can. But seriously, how are people stupid enough to leave their valuable property with PWCC, an almost openly criminal enterprise? The odds that PWCC ends up 'mishandling' property or that the government finally puts a stop to their ring and your cards go missing or are tied up in court are fairly high. PWCC's vault is about the only way that trusting Goldin instead makes sense. The victim of a crime is never to blame, but it will be hard to sympathize much when one of these vaults ran by dirty profiteers and/or fraudsters ends up blowing up.

My father always told me don't tell anyone what you have..

I guess you're serious, absolutely not, ridiculous.

I prefer to sit on my own assets

What he said +1.

I bought two $5 cards using the PWCC auction and have them in their vault because I wanted to try it.

I can somewhat see the appeal on stuff you are solely buying to resell.

No, I just insure it myself, store it myself. If I can't look at them from time to time I don't see the point. I think the only way I'd use a vault is to save the taxes on a big item.

True you are Nic. We've had this vault discussion before you started posting on the forum, and I went into it about the idea of removing one's items from a vault after waiting a reasonable period of time to do so. Pointed out to everyone how each state with sales tax has their own specific sales and use tax laws, so you'd want to research the specific state you're in to be sure there isn't something specific in their laws to catch you. Otherwise, I'd said that to my knowledge, no state with a sales and use tax has a specific time deadline or threshold written into their laws stating how long you'd have to own something before moving it into their state and not owe sales/use tax on it.

For example, you live in Oregon, and I'm guessing bought most all your possessions in-state, sans sales tax. So, if you picked up everything and moved to California tomorrow, no California sales tax agent is meeting you at the border or ever going to come looking for you to now collect sales/use tax on all the property you just brought into their state. I used California in my example as it is one of the most onerous states when it comes to state taxes. Also, though no such specific timing deadline/threshold rules for general property or possessions brought into CA exist, their sales/use tax laws do have a very specific timing deadline/threshold for bringing a registered vehicle into CA, of exactly one year. So, if in my example of your family moving to CA from OR, any cars/vehicles you brought with you and re-registered in CA that you had purchased less than one full year earlier, are now subject to CA sales/use tax based on the amount of CA sales tax you would have owed had you originally purchased the vehicle in CA, less whatever sales tax you actually did pay to whatever other state you did buy the vehicle in. But own that car/vehicle for 365 or more days prior to the move to CA, and there is no sales/use tax now due on it to CA.

As I pointed out to everyone, this clearly demonstrates that there is likely no infinite period of time during which a sales/use obligation will or can be imposed on items first put into a vault to escape sales taxes, and later taken out and brought back into an owner's home state that does have sales/use taxes. If you're in CA, I would think this one-year period for escaping sales/use tax on vehicles could very easily be used and crossed over to cards in a vault. For other states, I'd again suggest researching that specific state's sales/use tax laws to see if there are any timing deadlines/thresholds that are mentioned, and that you can then possibly use to determine how long you want to wait before trying to bring items you initially had sent to a vault, home to you.

And as mentioned, this vault thing is really set up more for the flippers/dealers/investors, and not something any true collector normally ever wants to get involved in or with. And that includes potential issues with someone else holding your cards and how these vaults are NOT like bank safe deposit boxes, where if something ever happens to the bank, whatever is in your safe deposit box is always your property, without question, period. I believe it was Adam (Exhibitman) who pointed out to truly safeguard items you have sitting in someone's "vault", you should probably be preparing UCC filings, and continuously updating and filing them with the applicable Secretary of State's office, to truly protect your cards and items being held for you by someone else.

Seems like services mostly pointed towards those looking to do a quick flip, maximize short term profit, and minimize their work storing and shipping items. Kind of the "day traders" of the card collecting world.

I think most people here are more "buy and hold" types. For us in that camp, especially those of us that are collectors first, we'd prefer to hold the card, look at it, and don't mind not maximizing short-term products if it'll be months/years/decades before we sell a card.

Exactly!

I suppose there is a place for vaults, but I don’t have a use for them. Safe and safety deposit boxes work well. Also, secret shelf in grandma’s attic by the chimney is an underrated safe spot :D. Don’t tell anyone!

I hate that eBay pushes this service so hard in listings… annoying.

I have been with Golden (soon to be Collectors vault) since Golden began offering this service. None of my cards in the vault were purchased and stored to avoid sales tax. They were all transferred in. I was paying exorbitant fees for safe deposit and back up collectors insurance. I realize there is a 1% removal fee unless I consign to Goldin but that will typically be paid by another AH to handle my collection if I choose to switch. Goldin has excellent customer service and has been VERY accommodating to my wishes when it comes to adjusting insured values on my premier cards. My only complaint is that their scans (for vault purposes) could be much better. I am hoping Collectors Vault will do a better job. The PWCC scans look very nice but I would personally choose Goldin over PWCC.

I started using PWCC earlier this year as I like their curation process. I picked up a near complete t206 set during the summer and I had very nice scans within a few days of them receiving it. I typically scan front/back of all of the cards in PC so basically paying them to do it for me made it completely worth it.

As for the tax aspect, I like the fact that I can decide when I'll pay the sales tax versus at the sale but I get that may not be what everyone else does (if they pay any tax at all). PWCC just changed their removal fee to 3% if taken out of the vault within 90 days of being in their vault and 1% thereafter. Their shipping costs are expensive as well.

All of that said, I'm guessing I'll use them less on single purchases and likely switch to Goldin if I win/pick up a big group of cards. PWCC's business practices are a little suspect at times and I don't tend to trust keeping any of my stuff there for any length of time as a result.

You use very harsh language describing PWCC. Perhaps you should look up libel and slander in the dictionary. I have no beef with the PWCC vault and think their sample vault inventory looks better than Goldin.

When I lived in Massachusetts we ran into "use tax" concerns many times with clients purchasing high value items in New Hampshire (a no sales tax state) and bringing them over the border as an end user to Massachusetts. It is virtually impossible to police unless you have MA DOR agents at the border. After the SJC ruled on South Dakota v Wayfair it opened the flood gates for online sales from large sellers who have "nexus" in each state to collect and remit sales tax (e.g. Amazon ) Now with Ebay collecting and remitting sales tax on behalf of sellers it is a bonanza for all states.

May work for some but it is not for me.

Great recap above about them.

I as a collector like to have them closer to me to enjoy and more control over it

Thanks for the responses about the vault. Based on what I read, I guess I'm a traditional collector and not very progressive. I like to hold the cards I acquire. Holding them (to me) is what it's about.

What happens if one of these companies declare bankruptcy or is sued and forced into receivership? Is there a contract which ensures that the "owner" of the card(s) will receive them and that the cards are not liquidated to pay off creditors? I'm assuming this is the case.

Ha. Libel? Slander? More like fact. The evidence of their guilt is overwhelming. Being a PWCC shill is hard work these days. Glad there’s two of you here now. Feel free to file suit.

If there is a contract, I haven’t seen it. But perhaps a few of the posters who noted above that they use the vault have seen one.

I will admit that I’ve only had one item on a vault, albeit unwittingly. I won an auction from a site, and the default shipping option when checking out was to ship it to their vault. Not taking the time to inspect the details, I paid my small bill and patiently waited for my item to come in the mail. It was probably about $30, so definitely nothing exciting.

A few weeks later, I realized my item still hadn’t arrived, so I logged in, and noticed that I now had one item in my vault inventory. At that point, I clicked a few buttons and had them ship it to me. No big deal. However, at no point was there any paperwork involved, or if there were details, terms and conditions, they were artfully hidden somewhere in the fine print that I wasn’t paying attention to when I completed my purchase. It’s possible that it exists somewhere if you dig hard enough to get it, but it’s not like they sent me anything formal (not even an email) to evidence their stewardship of my assets and the terms that would apply to that custodial relationship.

Even if there are terms and conditions that are written as favorable to me, and even if they were enforceable (some important ifs there…), I’m not sure that I want to have to go through the heartache and trouble of getting my items back if anything terrible were to happen. Any given collector may be up for that process, but it‘s certainly one of the big reasons why I’ve never seriously considered using a vault.

I do not use the vaults and personally never will. I've never understood buying an item and sending it to a vault or even a safety deposit box. Everything I own is insured and kept at my house to enjoy.

No thank you.

https://www.instagram.com/p/CLMhMxEn...=1mee41wy16nl6

Last paragraph, post #20. Had been discussed before in other thread(s) how if the vault company has a problem (bankruptcy, etc.) that your cards may not be automatically returned to you. Making a UCC filing with the applicable Secretary of State's office listing all your cards held in a vault would be how to protect your property being held for you by someone else. The filing documents your ownership of the listed property. You'd need to update and keep making new UCC filings as you made changes to what was being held in a vault for you, so it isn't necessarily just a one-time filing to protect your assets being held in a vault.

How bulletproof is a UCC filing in this situation?

And how much time/energy/work would it take to enforce your rights?

Surely PWCC, esteemed and honorable card business, would never mishandle expensive cards owned by their customers who they would never cheat or screw over.

"Babe Ruth Rookie". Lol. Lmao.

IMO a UCC filing is not necessary as a technical matter for reasons previously discussed at length, but it sure as hell cannot hurt, is inexpensive, and would make things cleaner should there be a problem. But to me that someone even needs to contemplate filing a UCC is a red flag that this is not a great idea.

Adam (exhibitman) pointed this out in an earlier thread. He's the attorney, I'm just repeating it since he hasn't weighed in on this thread yet. I'll defer to him or other attorneys as to the effectiveness of filing, but he seemed pretty confident in it as an effective way to more fully protect your cards/items being held in a vault. He mentioned being able to easily download the UCC form(s) online, and that the filing fee(s) are negligible (believe he mentioned something like $5). Of course, you have to file with the Secretary of State's office for the state where the vault is actually located. So, there could be some differences in the filings or costs, depending on which state(s) you would end up filing in. And I guess the time/effort would also be dependent on how many different items you have to list, and how often you add or remove things from your vault so you end up having to revise and update your UCC filing. Again, I'll defer to the attorneys for better details.

I don't see any risk other than there can always be wrong decisions and there can always be a hassle when one is dealing with bankruptcy courts. If the law is applied correctly, your stored cards should not become assets of the debtor's estate subject to creditor claims, even without a UCC-1.

Adam (exhibitman) seemed pretty convinced it was the smart thing to do, if I remember correctly, for anyone going to use one of these vaults. I agree with you, technically you don't/shouldn't need to do such a filing, but if something did end up happening with a vault owner/operator, I can see and understand how such a filing could help you in getting your cards/items back as quickly as possible, and with the least amount of potential hassle.

Yes i agree it's a smart thing to do, it makes documenting your ownership much easier for little time and money spent. What I don't know off the top of my head is how specific the filing needs to be, in other words, if your stored inventory changes constantly do you need to keep refiling/amending. I suspect the identification of what's yours needs to be precise but again I don't know that for sure.

And exactly why I said I agree with you. But in the case of say a bankruptcy, there can end up being some confusion as to what items really belong to whom, and no telling how long you might have to wait to get things sorted out and items returned to their rightful owners. The UCC filing could prove helpful if issues or delays do come up, or ownership questions arise. It can't hurt.

Yes we are on the same page.

I'd posed that exact question to Adam, and he agreed you would want to try and keep the filings up to date with your actual inventory of items on file with the Secretary of State's office being as accurate as possible. As I mentioned to him though, I doubt if many people would ever spend the time, effort, and money, to continually keep doing this, let alone making the initial UCC filing to begin with. But if you have enough value in cards/items sitting in a vault somewhere, better safe than sorry, right?

Yes.

I occasionally send cards to a PWCC vault if I'm looking to upgrade them in my collection. That way, as soon as I find a replacement for them, I can just send the current copy to auction right away and put those funds toward the upgraded copy. But that's pretty much the only thing I use the vault for. I prefer being able to actually look at and enjoy my collection.

I learned the hard way as a creditor who didn't file one, that a properly filed UCC-1 takes senior position over debt not protected by one. The Vault assets may not be viewed as company assets but you never know what the BK Trustee is going to do when things go South, your cards could be tied up for years. If you have a substantial dollar amount in the vault it would be prudent to file a UCC-1.

Like my Dentist says, "you don't have to floss all your teeth, just the ones you want to keep".

(I watched without sound). I find it interesting that in a video full of modern and shiny cards, the two cards they stop on are the 33 Goudey Ruth and Leaf Jackie. It seems even collectors of the shiny and modern recognize and respect the older stuff as being particularly noteworthy

interesting usage. Never thought of that.
Not sure if I would do it but I can see that as a strategic move

LOL, that's it in a nutshell for me too. I guess we're funny that way. :)

LOL, It's not libel and slander if true:D LOOK IT UP!:eek:

Remember when the PWCC fanboys sounded like they had an IQ over 35? This is what’s left of them :D

The first minute and a half accurately sums up what's going on here . . .


https://youtu.be/4x_QkGPCL18

It seems that a 1986 Fleer Jordan PSA 10 is more popular compared to a T206 Plank (29 to 158) than using a vault vs not using a vault (14 to 169).

I do not use a vault, but have no issue with the concept and could one day consider using one

i suspect most of the vault customers are modern guys doing a fair amount of flipping, and not vintage collectors looking for a place to store their collections. So results not surprising given the demographic here.

Exactly right Casey (and sorry to hear you ended up having to learn it the hard way). Plus, does anyone truly know what the exact recordkeeping and documentation functions and procedures are of these vault operators? If their records and/or documentation are not all they should be, it can make proving someone's ownership of items they are holding all the more difficult and definitely prolong recovery of them.

Believe it or not, there actually may be a way to find out and better assure yourself that these vault operators are handling and keeping your vault-held items safe and properly accounting for and keeping records of them. And you can thank CPAs for it. If you are already using, or thinking of using, a vault service, simply ask them for a copy of their most recent SOC-2 report on their vault service. And if they tell you they don't have one done (or even worse have no clue what you're talking about), ask them when they're going to start having one done so you can get a copy.

I'm going to guess none of them currently have one done, nor want to voluntarily go through the time and expense of doing so. But if they did, doing so would definitely enhance their transparency of what and how they do things and add tremendously to public/customer confidence in their services being provided.

And for those that don't know (which is likely most anyone reading this) what an SOC-2 report is, SOC now stands for "System and Organization Controls" (and originally stood for "Service Organization Controls) and is basically a detailed description, examination of, and report on what a service company like a vault operator/provider does (or at least says they're supposed to be doing), how they do it, and how well they do it. There is no explicit legal requirement for any service company to have such a report done, but can be a definite determining factor in people and businesses deciding who they will ultimately choose and hire to provide services for them.

Think about this in March 2020 the Jordan Fleer RC PSA 10 was a $35,000-$40,000 card.

Aren't those two polls basically measuring two entirely different things? One (Plank vs. Jordan) is about WHAT you collect, while the other (vault vs. no vault) is about HOW you collect.

Forgive me for not noting/bringing this up before, but isn't the idea and protection from such a UCC-1 filing then also technically applicable in the case of cards sent to a TPG for grading as well?

Obviously, this was much more pertinent during the recent height of the pandemic when cards were known to be in the possession of TPGs for in excess of a year in many cases. And even with the vastly reduced turnaround times TPGs have gotten back to today, there still exists the ever so faint risk one of them could suddenly go bankrupt (or maybe get raided and shut down by the FBI) and thus put one's recent submission at risk of not being promptly or properly returned. Any red flags for you there as well then?

Yes. But Peter got my point: Those inclined to chose a T206 Plank over a Fleer Jordan are likely most of the same people inclined to NOT use vault services. Alternatively, Jordan owners (modern) are more inclined to use a vault than Plank owners (vintage).

WHAT one collects is often indicative of HOW one collects.

I agree with your point also. Just getting to the same place on a slightly different path.

That is good point.

Just curious, regarding that video (linked to in one of the posts) -

Who are those guys? Is that a "vault"? Perhaps a small sample size, but most of that stuff looked new and shiny, however the Ruth and Robinson cards were pretty nice.

That is an intuitive assumption, but has nothing to do with the math of the two polls. You can't assume the people who prefer Plank are the ones who prefer to not use a vault service, simply because those are the majority positions in both polls.

Very true. The sticking point, I think, may be the use of the word "collect" or "collector", and how we're defining it in this instance. A true "hobby" collector with that collecting gene in their makeup seems to typically want to have a closer physical presence and attachment to the stuff they collect, so as to better enjoy it. A true dealer or flipper has much less, if even any, real desire to hold and keep around as "hobby" collectibles what to them is not actually a collection, but simply inventory.

Card collectors can be into pre-war baseball, or modern basketball, which will usually dictate if they'd rather a Plank or a Jordan, the WHAT they collect part of all this. But at the end of the day, a true "hobby" collector will most likely not keep either their Plank or Jordan cards in one of these vaults, at least not long term.

A dealer or flipper collects, or accumulates if you will, a Plank or Jordan card not for the enjoyment or aesthetics of the card itself, but more likely for which can make them the most money, while involving the least amount of work/effort and expense to do so. Using one of these vault services can save time, effort, and expense for dealers and flippers looking to make the most profit possible, as quickly as possible, off of either a Plank or Jordan card. A true hobby collector/accumulator merely wants to own and keep whichever of the two cards they prefer. The HOW they accumulate/hold their inventory or hobby collection part of this.

As someone else opined, if you took these polls on a predominantly basketball-oriented collector site instead, you'll likely see the Jordan card come way out on top. But if that select group is also primarily made up of true hobby collectors, the vault still gets its butt kicked.

The one poll deals with WHAT someone collects. The other with do they operate more as a dealer/flipper, or as a true collector, and thus, HOW they like to accumulate and hold their cards. I agree there is not necessarily any obvious or direct connection or correlation between the outcomes of the two polls. However, there is a large gray area overshading and possibly influencing the poll results as well though. Seems many people nowadays are at least a little bit of both, collectors AND dealers/flippers at the same time. And the extent to which way they lean can vary by card, and over time and specific circumstances.