Wow psa blowing away competitors
 

The Difference is Phenomenal PSA Is leading Big Time Maybe this is why that pressing video came out a couple weeks ago from SGC? SGC is Still Great in Vintage !!

Yeah, I saw those numbers recently...it's really not "the big three". It's the "big one, plus the next three".

Really surprised to see SGCs low number. Seeing a ton of the new tuxedo slabs on the market (pre-war right through modern) and assumed it would be way higher.

Interesting for sure. Herd mentality! Honestly I like PSA’s holder much better than SGC‘s… it’s design better and is much sturdier in my opinion. So it’s nice to buy PSA graded cards because you know there will be a bigger demand from the herd… The only time I’ve used PSA is through auction houses and at the national I have never sent my own submission in. But I have sent to SGC numerous times and got a membership for CSG and plan to send a few their way as well I look forward to the experience.

Less than 10 percent of psa’s number? Ouch.

I would have thought by now they would have put a dent in the market. Now, not so sure.

Any idea what the 23K and 67K figures represent for CSG? I'm assuming it is some breakdown between different kinds/types of items they grade that then makes up their total for the month?

Also remember those figures may not be telling the complete story. The figures say they are for cards "graded" in September 2022, not necessarily cards "submitted" that month. Remember, PSA had been sitting on a huge backlog of cards to grade for quite some time now, which is not really the case anymore with the other TPGs from what I've been hearing about turnaround times. A significant portion of that number of items they had graded in September may actually be for things they had been sitting on for months, or even over a year. If so, it is possible that PSA could have actually suffered a significant drop that month in the number of items being submitted to them, just like what appears to have happened to SGC and CSG. (No idea how to explain or read into the positive Beckett bump though.)

Also, could some of those drops possibly be at least partially explained by the timing of the National, and/or the further downturns in the market and inflation hitting the economy?

What would also possibly be helpful to know is a breakdown of those numbers between sports and non-sports/gaming cards, and then a further breakdown of the sports cards by sport (baseball, basketball, football, etc.). And then to take it one step even further, breakdown those sports cards by sport between vintage and modern. If you could get that kind of real, honest info from ALL these major TPGs every month, it would sure make determining and predicting trends and what truly may be going on a lot easier.

Also, it may help to better explain something that doesn't entirely add up otherwise. If PSA is truly kicking the butts of all the other TPGs seemingly this badly, why would they find it necessary to keep lowering their submission price? One obvious potential reason could be it is in direct response to the lowering of rates by other TPGs, and PSA is reacting to their price reductions to at a minimum, maintain their market share and continue what appears to be their dominance over all the other TPGs combined. Those numbers as they stand don't really give enough detail and info to possibly tell us the whole story though.

PSA sheep

The numbers do not surprise me. SGC had a shot to cut into that market share but SGC could not possibly be worse at promoting themselves. Despite the overly animated/caffeinated Peter, there is ZERO energy coming out of FL. They do a better job than PSA. They grade faster. I like their holders more than any other TPG but fact is that the bulk of the hobby prefers PSA slabs and those numbers demonstrate that.

At this point PSA could do everything wrong and it would not shift those numbers much. Kook Aid anyone.

https://postimg.cc/zy0C12LB

No idea ?

I could swear they already do. I have submitted a card twice and can't get them to label it correctly. I should be getting it back soon still mislabeled after sending it back in to get the label corrected.:mad:

Maybe the third time will be the charm. Sadly the price between being mislabeled and correctly labeled is worth the 3rd grading fee.

Well they're not leading the pack on logging in since they switched to the numb skull move of "same log in" for all 4 companies. Their IT had been working on it for 10 days now and folks can't submit or pay their bill. Sometimes being "too smart" bites you in the ass.

For many collectors, I’m going to sell it or my heirs are going to sell it.

And PSA maximizes value. Undeniable. For reasons well documented here and elsewhere.

End of discussion for many.

When I first started collecting, I loved SGC. For many cards I wish I paid up a little and got the same grade in PSA. Which is now worth like 30-50% more.

Csg / cgc
 

[QUOTE=BobC;2273460]Any idea what the 23K and 67K figures represent for CSG? I'm assuming it is some breakdown between different kinds/types of items they grade that then makes up their total for the month?

CSG is sportscards
CGC is non-sport (Pokemon, Magic, Marvel etc)

PSA sells for the most so PSA gets the most submissions.

Bottom line-my 10 year old nephew thinks PSA is part of the card company. They have already won, even though I love SGC slabs, the common joe being my brother and 10 year old kid know PSA and nothing else. It has to be PSA for Christmas.

Not to be a serious hater, but how many of those items graded in September 2022 by PSA were submitted before they shut it down during the pandemic? Some portion of this could just be getting through the backlog…

[QUOTE=Majestic;2273487]I was thinking it might be something like that. So which number would be for just sports cards?

You're not being a hater, that is exactly what I was saying and asked about back in post #6.

They still do a ton more business than all the other TPGs put together it seems, primarily because as has already been stated in various posts, everything else being equal, PSA graded cards will typically sell for more money than similar cards graded by any of the other TPGs. And since the hobby is turning more and more into a true investment/business vehicle every day that passes by, that additional profit margin/potential is impossible to ignore for a major portion of the hobby community. Our overall views and opinions as primarily big-time pre-war (and vintage) collectors here on Net54 are most certainly not representative of the majority of the people now involved in the hobby. Today you don't have kids collecting pop bottles anymore to take and turn in at the local corner store for the deposit money, and then use that money to buy a pack of baseball cards and stick of gum. We're definitely not in Kansas anymore. LOL

I’ve been submitting cards to SGC for 20+ years now and can’t understand why anyone would use another company, but to each his own.

You seriously, honestly can't understand why anyone would use another company. You can't think of ANY reason. Not one.

Ok.

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PSA sells for more, that's one reason.

[QUOTE=BobC;2273516]The first one in the breakdown, the second one is the trading card part. They did 23k sports cards.

I’ve never submitted cards to any of these companies….I’ve submitted tickets to PSA, not for the grade, but for protection…..I am more of a raw card and set guy but have a lot of slabbed cards in my collection….mainly PSA, SGC and some BVG…..I think SGC is the most consistent grading company - just an opinion…..

At the end of the day, when I do buy slabbed cards, I buy the card and not the company or grade….

I’ve been known to cut a few slabs over the years as well to get the card back into a raw state….

☺️

I fixed it for you.... ;)

I guess great minds think alike.

I’m guessing that once we start adjusting for stuff, it might not be quite as dramatic. I wouldn’t be surprised if 50% or more of the PSA volume was getting through their backlog. At one point a few months ago they announced that 85% of their capacity was dedicated to the backlog. I’m sure it has come down by now, but finally getting around to grading stuff that has been waiting on your desk for over a year seems like it’s maybe a bit of false bravado.

As others have noted, some portion of the items are also going to be non sport items, like garbage pail kids and Pokémon cards, and I guess Funko Pops, whatever those are…

My suspicion is that a good chunk of PSA’s action is in these items, and that’s before we even start talking about adjusting for other sports like basketball football soccer etc. Many of which seem to be picking up of late.

All of which is a long way of suggesting that the top line numbers probably obfuscate as much as they reveal in terms of real dominance in our market. Particularly if you define our market as simply the areas that this group primarily cares about.

I saw the title and my brain instantly translated it to "PSA blowing off customers"

brianp(arker)-beme

PSA is grading 1.083 million cards because the have the capacity to. They have invested in their business so they can grade that many cards because the demand is there. I don't see that changing in the near term. Their bulk pricing is 18, it was 10 with specials at 8 before the pandemic. There are people holding cards waiting for PSA's pricing to go lower. PSA will continue to adjust their prices to keep operating at these levels.

Wow psa blowing away competitors
 

Market share, blah blah blah. SGC isn't trying to be PSA or have their volume. They are trying to have zero or minimal backlog, which they have managed to become wildly successful at, at least over the last 6 months plus.

If you are into subbing or buying PSA slabs for your collection only out of consideration for the $ and turnaround, I get it. But in virtually every other way - customer service, pricing, turn time, presentation - SGC has made strides over and above PSA that are noticeable. And at least for vintage, please don't try to say that PSA is tougher than SGC anymore. It's simply not true. Both have their quirks and differences (PSA tougher on corners maybe, SGC tougher on centering) and things like that, but SGC is not exactly the cakewalk for vintage that BVG historically is.

PSA may have won at least the early long term game with their registry, but increasingly just for a professional presentation and an accurately graded card, it's difficult to see them maintaining a 30-50% resale advantage in the long term to come. I would agree that it has defied logic so far, but SGC is the company you see changing and making progress in the last 5 years and doing things differently, PSA not so much. Either the backlogs are endless, or the prices are unreasonable - or some combination of both.

I'm leaning more towards raw vintage cards myself in the days ahead, simply because I've realized that I don't actually value a bunch of things in my "eye appeal" collection that I've ostensibly ascribed to for years - but that said for the few things I still want in a slab for whatever reason - I'm sticking with SGC for submissions. When buying 3rd party I buy the card first and not the slab, thus I have a variety of slab brand labels - but have only ever submitted myself with SGC.

Could these numbers be as accurate as political polls in late October?

Just a thought.

Kind of surprised some private equity people haven't swooped in and bought SGC, poured money into it, and turned it into a real company. Where someone actually does normal things you'd expect from a business, like, you know, answer the fukkin phone.

I'm not surprised that PSA outsells SGC, but SGC is just leagues better than PSA in my opinion. Lightning fast turnaround and the cases are much more aesthetic.

Wow psa blowing away competitors
 

The black insert was a good idea, and the contrast makes many cards pop. I will admit I’m not a huge fan of the corner cutouts and “framing mat” concept of securing the cards; they’ve had noted issues with this in the past - both with cards that aren’t held in place tightly enough, and jagged corner cutouts with the potential to damage card edges. For the latter before they fixed the issue, I popped more than a few SGC slabs, cursing under my breath the whole time.

PSA’s enclosure and rail system isn’t perfect, but it’s been less problematic overall than SGC’s gasket insert. All bets are off however, when PSA (frequently recently…) just says screw it, and uses the wrong sized slab alltogether, oftentimes leaving a valuable card floating between rails that are not sized for it.

I think if SGC could find a way to ditch the gasket for rails and still keep the black background contrast, that might be something worth looking into. I will say that even if the gasket is imperfect, SGC’s cards seem to move a lot less naturally in the enclosed space anyway for whatever reason — thus rendering the gasket as less of an issue. At the end of the day it is just a different approach, I suppose. And really just comes down to personal preference.


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Psa
 

PSA can have the quantity, I'll take quality every day- that's SGC. PSA needs
to be "too big to fail" in the eyes of many investors. Trent King

This^^^
What is Gemrate, who owns them, are they credible and how long have they been around for?

Not saying anything nefarious or fishy is going on, but this is the 1st time I have ever heard of them so I am just curious is all.

Edit: Just found this. I'm skeptical, but that's me.
https://www.gemrate.com/faq

If the combined total of 1.3 million is real, which I doubt, there is one hell of a crash coming in the graded market.

Come on...seriously. you are saying that SGC wants no backlog. They just don't like money.

You do know the true reason why the turnaround is like 24 hrs for SGC right?

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No, please tell

So they’re just lying? Ok. They were overrun with volume they couldn’t handle in the summer of 2020, with the old lower prices. They raised them in order to slow submissions and get through the backlog, which they did. There were a few hiccups yes, but it’s largely worked. If they wanted to be PSA clones with economy subs and months-long backlogs, they could lower sub prices to $10 or less and easily overwhelm the queues again. Many of those scenarios have actually happened since 2020 at this point as they were trying to figure out the price points. Maybe not everyone wants to wait months or a year to get their cards back in the name of some great special or economy price? I don’t think it’s crazy to think that SGC might want to differentiate their business model in the ways they have instead of just blindly / slowly emulating PSA. Their stated goal was to continue to grow while maintaining turn times that were not PSA cringeworthy. Obviously that will take longer to do than if their only goal were a quick money grab.


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It is true that some companies, privately owned primarily, may not desire to be the biggest company out there. There are still some companies that just want to make a decent living for themselves and their employees. Just guessing that demand at the time necessitated SGC to hire more employees to keep up with demand when PSA and BGS suspended their services. When the flood gates opened again, customers started submitting back to the companies that failed them previously. Hence, SGC I'm guessing wanted to maintain their upscaled work force but is struggling because customers went back to their "old girlfriend". New hires and proper training costs money, lots of money. It would be a hard blow to turn around and lay off those new hires that came aboard with the expectation they would be there for the long term.

We must ask our self at what point is it "not ok" to tolerate backlog, poor customer service, etc. etc. etc. It's not ok when you are awaiting the return of a treasure that has been out of your possession for months and see where the same company is touting submissions of 1B new submissions for the month.

I watched the SGC video. It pained me to watch it, as all my experiences with SGC have been positive. I can't say as much for BGS and for sure PSA. However, I turned around and submitted a couple of bulk submissions to PSA because of the lowered pricing, and yes, I paid the membership fee in order to do so. My little submissions won't create change if I don't submit them to PSA. However, they may have a small impact on SGC, with whom I have been very happy with.

There are cases, photos for example and sealed pack certification, where I have no other options. Not the case with cards. I have options. The main question I need to ask myself is, if I submitted them to SGC when I had no other options, and was happy with the price and service, why would I go back to a company that basically closed the door on me.

Does anyone else feel the same or is it just me?

I’ll have to admit that I’m not entirely sure what you’re suggesting…you made so many points and counterpoints that it’s hard to evaluate whether I feel the same.

Want to boil it down a little for us?

It almost seems like you’re suggesting that we should all dump PSA for their past failures, but then you admit that you’ve personally gone right back to them, including paying your membership fee to get bulk pricing.

But maybe you had another message in mind?

I do like SGC for vintage however what upset me the most was completely giving up on-site grading. More specifically at the National. Especially at last year's National 2021 the first one after the Pandemic. The pre-grade at this year's National was half-ass if you ask me.

SGC used to grade on-site twice a year at Philly, Once In Strongsville, along with at the National. Come to think of it in 2015 and 16 they would do White Plains too! Now Zip. At least PSA does The National and Long Beach on-site.

Maybe this will come back. Idk not holding my breath.

Nope, you hit it right on the head. I did it - I went right back to PSA and submitted about 40-50 cards under their vintage grading special. I guess I'm just trying to figure out why I did it when I was very satisfied with SGC. Maybe it was because in my mind they would hold more market value with PSA than SGC. Maybe it's because I've been submitting cards to PSA forever.

The comparative submission numbers were stunning.

I would just find it interesting to know why other members went back to PSA that were also very satisfied with SGC. Maybe it's not one thing but a combination of several; market acceptance, PSA Registry, Branding, advertising, location, public shows, etc. etc.

By the way, I'm retired and don't have a "Dog In the Fight" one way or the other.

I'll have to figure out why I did on my own.

The First reason you said is why many don’t want to admit it but that’s the primary reason for many. Because in your mind they would hold more market value with PSA than SGC. When people say it’s not about the money they’re fooling themselves it’s always a major factor.

Wow psa blowing away competitors
 

Right. I'm guessing that SGC had a desire to become somewhat more than the boutique shop that they were in say 2000, or 2005 - but they pulled a pretty major gaffe in 2020 with the whole "We're open, send us your cards!" campaign when they got big eyes at the idea of PSA being shut down, even if temporarily. For once, and for the first time ever I believe - collectors called their bluff and absolutely inundated them. They had to backpedal and hire more employees immediately to keep from drowning, and even so it took them months to clear the 2020 backlog. Quality slipped during this time as well, as I know their move to treat centering more strictly got wildly out of hand at one point around that timeframe - new graders were giving cards that should have been like 7's and higher 5's and lower due to centering alone. Luckily it seems they fixed that problem relatively quickly.

Again, I could be wrong but I'm guessing some of SGC's recent growth trends were unintended and just had more to do what the market dealt them, and with some of the other stuff - you have to imagine it's going to be different in ways with Peter and the younger folks in charge. I just don't see them setting their sights on grading a million cards in whatever period of time to keep up with PSA on a chart. Many people that submit to SGC regularly have reasons why they DON'T submit to PSA. What would be the point of trying to lead all TPG's in volume if you had to totally change who you were to do that?

SGC seems to do a fine job and all but psa is king of the market, no doubt about it. Some people have varying degrees of feeling about this but I also think overall sgc is an easier grader to the point where a new label psa 3 equals a new label sgc 4 or higher. Just my view and plenty of exceptions.

Wow psa blowing away competitors
 

I would disagree on your notion of strictness. Were they an easier grader 20 years ago? Sure. But SGC is both tough and consistent on vintage these days. PSA from what I have seen is more inconsistent than anything recently, which I guess also means that they are sometimes tougher. Also just my view.


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HA.

I’m not going to psychoanalyze you, if for no other reason than my accounting training isn’t much help.

It does seem like there are plenty of SGC acolytes around here, many of whom proclaim their intent to stay away from PSA. I’m guessing that’s largely a function of the crowd that hangs out around here.

For me personally, I’ve never submitted to SGC. When I first got back into the collecting world about 7 years ago, I merely bought pre-graded items. And with the registry, I somewhat unwittingly went with PSA, also in part because PSA graded items were more abundantly available, not realizing at the time that in some ways, I was sort of locking myself into their system.

Over the years, I’ve sent items in to PSA for grading, although typically only because some low-pop items weren’t available on the market, and this was the only way to fill out my sets. If I had to guess, I’ve probably spent about $15k on having items graded at PSA, although the majority were at the “old” bulk pricing of $8 apiece.

I really don’t have anything against SGC. Certainly I wish them luck, if for no other reason than having some healthy competition will help to keep the 800 pound gorilla in the industry from taking over everything and all of the insalubrious outcomes that arise from having a de-facto monopoly. At the same time, some would probably argue that we are already there!

All great points.

And notice how of everyone looking at this thread, the two CPAs are apparently the only ones noticing and possibly questioning the true nature of theses figures for PSA. That's what happens when you are professional skeptics like us when it comes to numbers. LOL

Would love to see more breakdowns and better info behind all these TPG figures though, on a monthly basis over a period of time. Then we might be able to get a better insight into what is happening.

Wow psa blowing away competitors
 

To be clear, I have nothing overarching against PSA. I buy their slabs 3rd party regularly. I’ve just never submitted to them, because I’ve never found a combination of their turn times and price that seemed reasonable to me. When I submitted for the first time ever in 2006, I did a study of all the major TPG’s at the time - and wound up going with SGC. Though I have had the occasional issue with them, I’ve never had cause enough to change that approach as a fairly infrequent submitter.


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I've raised the thought/question before of CSG's parent company doing just that. Then keep SGC for the pre-war/older vintage, and continue with CSG doing the newer vintage and modern stuff, along with all the non-sports cards and stuff.

I thought CSG was supposed to be working on their own Registry as well. If they can get that up and going, and then include SGC in it, can see that have a positive effect on both of them going forward.

I’m by no means an expert but it seems like psa is stricter in terms of 50s and 60s. Pre war probably closer to the same.

Wow psa blowing away competitors
 

My wheelhouse is 50’s through the 70’s. I’m not going to say with conviction that I think SGC is tougher than PSA, but they certainly aren’t any easier right now.

Tomato / tomaato. I’ve seen older PSA slabbed vintage in a 5 that would be lucky to get a 3 today. It’s a slow pendulum that swings back and forth. I think we are a product of our experiences. And to your original point there are a lot of exceptions either way.

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Psa
 

PSA is NOT stricter on vintage than SGC currently. I'm an SGC "acolyte"-
nice Dungeons and Dragons term!- but even I admit SGC is far, far too
harsh on vintage (not just baseball) as of October 2022. The main difference
is the SGC submitter knows this and also knows their card will return in the
same calendar year it was submitted. PSA submitters have no idea a) when
their cards will return and b) what grade they will receive. Anything is
possible with PSA grades, there is a lack of rhyme or reason. It's an
imperfect reality, but still reality. Trent King

PS- the best answer for hobbyists who prefer slabbed, is to deal with
previously slabbed cards. That way, you can avoid the current uncertainty
with submitting and judge slabbed cards on their merits.

I disagree. I'v crossed far too many recently graded PSA slabs into higher grade SGC slabs recently for me to believe that is the case. Yes, there is variance among graders, but right now, in my experience, PSA is grading ridiculously harsh. I've seen so many EX cards in PSA VG holders recently. It's absolutely mind-blowing.

What???a.

What???

Lol, just watched a YT video in which some experienced vintage collectors were saying pretty much just the opposite. They had cracked some PSA 8's, perhaps with the notion of them getting 8.5's or 9's with SGC. And SGC sent one card back a 7, and the other a 7.5.

I think it's probably fairest to say right now that the two graders are very close in their standards, and on any given day it probably could go either way as to who is the toughest.

I can only imagine trying to explain a finer point of something about cards to a guy in a call center somewhere....

I haven't had an acceptable call to a large company in years, between the outright lies and willful lack of understanding anything.

I've told a couple they should rename it to the "customer disservice" department.

I wanted to contact Toyota customer service the other day and they've shut down the email option, you literally cannot email them. And the phone option is a menu tree cluster fork that you can't bypass by saying representative or customer service.

You know who is actually good now IMO is ebay, very easy to reach on the phone.

psa & sgc
 

Any company that refuses to answer a phone call for customer service, I will not transact with that company anymore no matter how much I liked them in the past. It does not matter the product or service, whether is autos or cable service
, baseball cards or anything else, dont support companies that do not even allow you to speak to them.
SGC made a huge mistake not allowing phone inquiries, no calls after Covid became a lame excuse.

Yep , pretty much sums it up for me as well.

And at PSA you will be #43 in the queue by 7:30AM PST M-F and by 8 you can try your call tomorrow. Both companies blow on so many different levels. Hasn't SGC handed out their email addresses? I thought they had at one time and were always great with replying.

I haven't seen it before, and I salute you if you are the person to have come up with ' menu tree cluster fork'...so very appropriate for the looping hell that can be an automated customer service phone situation.

I can almost see a graphic of a phone in the shape of a fork with tines all twisting in knots and curving back on themselves.

Brian

I see these posts comparing number of cards graded over the previous month frequently enough on social media. It just reminds me of McDonald's and their "billions and billions served" slogan, assuming they still do it.

Sure, they serve a lot more burgers but they're far from the best burgers around.

That is a great comparison.:)

They also both regularly get your order wrong.:eek::D

They've been chasing me about the airbag on my POS Sienna for a while.
They even came out and left a note on the car!
Like WTF, just bring the d*** airbag if you're making the trip.
And while they're at it, some rims that don't leak air down to flat in 2 days because unlike real car companies they haven't figured out that uncoated aluminum and salt water from wintry roads don't mix.

Odd about Ebay, they used to be in the "wait a couple hours if you can even find the secret phone number" club.

Graded cards
 

I agree.
I used to submit many cards to both PSA and SGC.
I will now only buy cards that are already graded.
I know the grade when I buy it and get the card right away.
No mystery or disappointment.

Regards
John P

A human being for customer service would be nice. What happened to Earl??

So email is not good enough? You demand someone pick up the phone?

I mean, as long as we're asking for stuff, we might as well get greedy.