National location in 2024 and future
 

When will the location for the National in 2024 be announced? And future locations as well?

I think the dealers sent their votes in. From what I recall overhearing it was three choices. Chicago across the board. Chicago, Cleveland Chicago. And can't remember what I heard the third option was.

I think the third option was Cleveland/AC. I’m guessing that’s going to be a no lol

It has been since 2012 the National was in Baltimore. It has rotated in the three cities mentioned since then. Still, with the Cleveland building closed at the airport and the Ferris Wheel removed, the rotation is simply Atlantic City one year and Chicago another. Man, that puts miles on the car.

From what I've read -- the Convention Center downtown is where the NSCC will be held in Cleveland but if the I/X Center is needed, it is available

https://clevelandmagazine.com/in-the...center-is-back

Regards
Rich

If it goes to Cleveland, it will be at the IX Center. The downtown center is not close to being large enough and they will not eliminate 1/3 of the dealer booths to go there.

Not true. It is larger than Atlantic City and almost as large as Rosemont's. https://www.clevelandconventions.com/

Attachment 531130

Selfishly, Cleveland would be an easy drive for me. And Ohio generally seems like a collecting Mecca. Maybe this has been covered but it seems like the best idea would be an airport hub city so people can fly direct. Detroit, Chicago, Charlotte, NYC, Atlanta, etc.

One thing you need to keep in mind is exhibit space vs total space. AC has ~490k sqft of exhibitor space across 5 connected halls. The Cleveland convention center has ~225k sqft across 3 connected halls. Cleveland than has an additional 140k+ sqft of meeting and pre-function (hallways/lobbies) space and additional auditoriums and ballrooms in the hotel on the full campus. It is only when you combine all these extra spaces is it actually larger than AC or close to Chicago. While this type of space is great for some types of shows and events, all the extra space outside the exhibition halls would not be conducive for a card show in my opinion.

Here are links to the actual floor plans for AC and Cleveland. When you start to look at the actual floor layouts and how the space is broken down you can see why some spaces, even though the total space may be larger, just won't work due to how the space is designed.

AC 2nd level - https://meetac.com/meet/specs-floor-plans

Cleveland - https://www.clevelandconventions.com...oom-Map_v2.pdf

and for additional comparison, here's the floor place for Chicago - https://rosemont.com/desconvention/w...1_RGB_2014.pdf

Not to intentionally rain on your parade, but read the info in that convention center link you included. It is put out by the Cleveland Convention Center, so would assume it is accurate, and it states that the center provides 410,000 SF of prime meeting and event space, which includes only 225,000 SF of main Exhibit Hall space. Where did you get those other SF figures, in the chart you posted, from? My guess is those other figures may be gross, overall building dimension SFs, and not truly representative of the actual, contiguous main exhibit floor space available.

In contrast, the Cleveland IX Center has a gross building size of 2.2M SF, and an exhibit floor space of 985,000 SF, more than 4X the 225,000 SF main exhibit hall space in the Cleveland Convention Center, per your link. And based on how the SF numbers for the Cleveland Convention Center in your
chart don't seem to jive with the SF size per the Convention Center's own site, the actual main exhibit hall SF for Rosemont and Atlantic City per your chart may be suspect as well. When they first opened the IX Center in 1985, I believe it was then the largest exhibition center/building in the US, if not all of North America.

Per the Donald E. Stephens Convention Center website, it has a total of 840,000 SF of exhibition space, but that appears to be spread out over various halls/rooms. Their site says for larger shows they have a 250,000 SF continuous exhibit hall/space, which I'm assuming is the same room/hall they use to host the National. If that is the case, then the IX Center's main exhibit floor/room is once again, multiple times bigger.

Just saying........

Understood. You all might be right. I'm unclear about total contiguous space of the new convention center. Perhaps the facility can be enlarged at some point to make it work.

Detroit use to have some of the greatest hobby shows. One of the few cities with all 4 major sport teams. What about the Huntington Place convention Center. See all the details at their website.

Between the cities of Chicago and Cleveland. Across the river from Canada collectors, with Toronto only a few hours away.

Free high speed WI-Fi.
4200 parking spaces + 1000's more close by.
Greektown, many eating places etc.
Several Casinos in Detroit.
623,000 sq ft in contiguous floor space. Several other event rooms etc.
Etc.

https://www.huntingtonplacedetroit.com/


Just a thought and another option to consider.

Taking it back old-school would be awesome. Cobo (Huntington place, bleh) dwarfs all of them if you count the other open space built for the North American Auto Show. -

Dimensions
Ballroom Space
51,527 Square Feet
40,000 Grand Riverview Ballroom
5,368 Portside Ballroom
6,139 Ambassador Ballroom
Exhibit Hall Space: 723,000 Square Feet; 623,000 Contiguous
Flex Space: 200,000 Square Feet
Meeting Space: 100 Rooms, 200,000 Square Feet
Atrium: 3-story Glass Atrium 30,000 Square Feet

Don't fall for the national ruin porn they show for Detroit. Working downtown for 11 years and the crime in the financial/sports district is near nothing. Now if you want to jump off into the neighborhoods, well good luck. But I don't hitchhike in Compton either.

Florida Would Be Awesome as an alternate along with Las Vegas. WOW

Probably Pie in the Sky but one can dream.

Yeah, I don't see that happening, but I'd go if they had it anywhere in Florida. As it is though, it never passes within 1,200 miles of my house.

Dare to dream...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qwju6iTsgBk

Detroit !!! Hell yeah !!!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DgGr1-JA5io

perfect!!!!!

That was a great video! Brought back so many memories... we probably will never see another National there in our lifetimes, but thanks for posting it!

Speaking of Cleveland
 

I had no idea he made a 3rd video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SDza6G2AyQU

Rich

Bring it to DC

Wonder if they released attendance for this year’s show. I know from reading the board carefully that no one was going to AC because of the crime and decay. Very Curious to see how bad of a disaster it actually was.

lol

If I ran a business and the leading industry group said we are going to move our annual marquis event from the NJ/NY/Philly area to Cleveland I would be over the moon.

Trying to get that far away?
Those videos are great.
.

That is disgusting and insulting to anyone from the area.

+1,000! Is the D.C. convention center not big enough, is that the problem? And what about Philly or Baltimore for East Coast venues, why don't they get consideration? What's the big deal about Cleveland, anyway? It's not really central for West Coast or Southern folks, and if that's the main criterion, why not just have it in Chicago or some other midwest location every year and leave it at that? As for A.C., I'm waiting for the crime reports: all the muggings, street robberies, carjackings, etc. Apparently, the National was very well attended, so the accompanying crime and carnage as predicted must have been horrendous, right?

It doesn’t matter where the show is. People with money will travel anywhere. As the popularity of the hobby has exploded, the scale of the national should as well. And the IX Center is the best location on the current schedule to continue expanding the number of tables. How sweet would a 2,000-3,000 table show be?!

Cleveland could easily support expansion and in a decent location to travel into for the majority of attendees. They could add corporate and dealer tables simultaneously. The hobby is strong, now is the time to test the limits of possibilities.

I’d also suggest an early admission daily ticket option for more than a 1/2 hour early admission as is the current norm. Charge $50 per day.

For reference AC as I mentioned above is 490k sqft.

DC (Walter Washington Convention center) - Hall ABC looks to be 473k sqft - so a little small but maybe possible especially if you would be willing to separate into the 2nd floor hall as well. But I'm not sure breaking the show into multiple areas would be a good thing.

Philly would work based on size (main hall is 528k sqft + the ballroom if you wanted to separate for more space).

Baltimore - IMO the show has now unfortunately outgrown the convention center. The main hall is only 300k sqft.

Great info. Thanks!

Nothing against Cleveland, I did several Nationals there and except for the union rules (nothing against unions, either, but those were ridiculous), I liked it as a venue. Didn't realize it was so big and suitable for expansion of the show, but I agree that would be a good reason to go for that and maybe just stick there, including the revival of the Ferris Wheel! I don't quite agree about location not being important, some parts of the country are better than others for our purposes, IMO.

DC has a great layout. Push the breakers/corporate areas to different halls. Washington, D.C. has over 200,000 more sq feet of exhibition space in the building than Atlantic City. The building is bigger than the San Diego Convention Center which hosts Comic-Con for example... it could definitely host the national.

Given the growth of the hobby maybe not a bad idea to add more space. I'd also argue for modifying the floor plans for the show:

1. Put the autographs, breaker area and the card grading services in a separate room. Those activities are sufficiently differentiated from the basic buying and selling of cards and memorabilia that there is no real loss to having them off the main floor.

2. I'd also put the true corporate booths (the ones that don't actually sell stuff) at one end of the main floor away from the dealer tables. It is a PITA to circle around or traverse the no-man's-land of the corporate booths twenty times a day moving between dealer table rows.

3. I would also segregate the auction houses from the dealer tables. Candidly, I don't care what trinkets the AHs have on display; that's maybe something I briefly look at while having a snack.

I'd love to see 700-1000 dealer tables concentrated into one area.

I'd also like to see more tables and chairs available besides by the concessions. The IX Center certainly could accommodate a series of sitting areas on the show floor. Might be nice for visiting and trading.

ETA: my last few shows in Cleveland have been really good, and I have come around to not minding the IX Center, especially if they've gotten rid of that f***ing annoying Ferris wheel dead zone in the middle of the room. The airport is the size of a small regional airport here in LA, so easy to get around (I still get lost in O'Hare every time) and I've found some good areas to go to eat. Having to get a car is a drag, but it isn't a deal-breaker for me.

Add as many dealers at the IX Center as the facility can possibly hold. 800 or 1000 or whatever Attachment 531338Attachment 531338Attachment 531338

Hoping that the new blood running the forthcoming shows might have some fresh ideas, such as "Maybe we can actually pay a little bit for a venue instead of expecting one to be handed to us.". It would sure open up a lot of possibilities, wouldn't it? I understand that several venues wouldn't be ideal for one reason or another, but maybe, just maybe, there might be something out there that is affordable enough that it would freshen up this event and not cut too much into their profits. Variety is sorely needed. When is the last time this idea was even tried (paying for a site)? Certainly far prior to the COVID hobby boom.

(Maybe I am mistaken, but am fairly certain that "free venue" was always the former promoters' main point for the same, tiresome drudgery and the reasoning for not even considering to explore so many other avenues.)

They haven't been paying for the venues? Wow! How does that work?

Great suggestions! Unfortunately, I think the folks that operate the National are not concerned about the dealers. Seems to me the show is all about the corporate booths, auction houses and the breakers. How come the corporate folks don't have to wait in line in the dealer lottery to get booths? I also wonder with new management all based out east, what is their incentive to hold the show anywhere but east?

I have observed that there are more and more large shows being held across the country. I think these large regional shows will become better alternatives for dealers in the future as the National continues to cater to corporate, auction houses and breakers (someone take away their microphones!!). I also would like to see more vintage-only shows like Strongsville.

Virginia Beach or Richmond!

Any contact information available for the new owners/promoters of the future National Shows ? I can't find how to contact them. Thanks

Even combined they're not large enough. VB is 180k sqft including the separate ballroom and Richmond is 178k sqft.

I would love to see the National return to Baltimore (only an hour away). At the time, I heard the problem with Baltimore was the venue could not be booked years out, which is a problem when rotating sites. I have attended the show in Cleveland as well. The IX center is huge and tons of parking. DC would be an interesting location. Parking would be a nightmare, especially during the week. Metro access helps alleviate the parking situation.

Chicago - amazingly convenient. Easy to fly to. Location of hotels to center is awesome. Great American city with a lot to do.

Atlantic City - close driving distance for a large section of the population of the country, so much of hobby is actually based on NJ, not a city to spend a lot of time walking about but many people enjoy the selection of casinos and other night life.

Cleveland - honestly not much of a tourist destination and not as easy to travel to as chicago. No offense to Cleveland, been there a few times and don’t need to go back.

Vegas - if it worked out sure. Same with Orlando or one of the California large cities. Places you’d want to go to for a vacation.

I disagree that people will go anywhere. I travel for leisure maybe 2 x a year. I’m not taking a trip to East Jabib because their is a card show there. Has to be other things pulling me there.

The Washington Convention Center is not a great place for the show. I have gone there for the auto show, World Stamp Expo, Health and fitness expo and small events. The main hall is only about 160' x 90', or 155' x 60'. I used their virtual floor plan program with measuring tool and got several different measurements. The Auto Show uses multiple floors. Even though the main hall is a nice rectangle, it would not seem practical. I believe the main hall is also in the basement.

I have walked in the area quite a bit when I go to the D.C. Archives for research. The convention center takes up about 3 old city blocks. Directly to the north is mainly residential rowhouses and Howard University. To the west is mostly rowhouses, small condos. To the east is low income housing and Dunbar High School. To the south across the intersection of two major avenues (New York and Massachusetts) is Chinatown and Capital One Arena. There is not enough parking close to the building with no parking structures. There is a parking area in the building, but that may just be for exhibitors and deliveries. Very few places to eat - Subway and some small restaurants. As for hotels; there is one in the next block - Marriott Marquis. After that all of the larger hotels are 5-8 blocks away - Grand Hyatt, Hilton Garden Inn, Sofitel, Washington Marriott, Washington Hyatt.

The only positive is the Mt. Vernon/Convention Center/7th Street Metro stop is directly below the building. The exit/entrance to the subway station is under part of the building so you come up the escalator and walk 30 feet into the building. One of the subway lines that stops here goes to Crystal City in Arlington, future home of Amazon HQ2, and there are 13 hotels there.

The big hall(s) down below street level is/are 473k sqft. The big hall up the giant escalators is 230k sqft. It might be acceptable to stick the graders and signers upstairs, and then have the dealers and mandatory corporate booths downstairs. They could even put some corporate stuff on the mezzanine between the street level and the lower halls; everybody will have to walk by it.

There is also the matter of some onerous union rules. You can take it in yourself, but no carts.

Edit: Looks like DJ already had the measurements. 473k sqft works out to 500' x 940'.

When I first pulled up the site the ABC hall showed up as much smaller. When I reentered the site the real exhibition hall came up and it is 1290' long 290' wide for half the hall and 370' wide for the other half. So roughly four football fields long and one football field wide, more or less. That makes it seem like it is longer and wider than AC. City owned convention center so not surprised it is union. It fits the cities' politics. Other than that there are still the parking, food and hotel issues. Those pretty much put it out of the running.

I would love for them to just make it simple. Find the Convention Centers that have the right size to handle the Show and the right number of hotel rooms to handle it and then rotate it thru out the country each year. This gives those that do not or cannot travel the opportunity to go every so many years and it gives those able or willing to travel the ability to get there but also explore that city or surrounding areas, take in games and events in different parts of the country.

The economics is the only factor that may affect this from the cost of the venue and the area of the country that the Shows organizers feel if an area can support the show.

Regardless Book it and lets go

Why not Richmond, VA? https://www.richmondcenter.com/about

One think a lot of people aren’t considering is air fare. Those who travel for business a lot realize that tickets to Chicago and New York are DC are usually way cheaper than smaller and midsized cities. See how many people fly to one of the smaller cities being mentioned when the airfare is $2000.

Very good point air travel cost should be considered as a factor but I still believe there are enough good locations that could support a healthy rotation thru out the country.

Regarding the Washington, DC convention center, there are plenty of hotels within 2 blocks of the facility. The problem is there isn't much parking.

That's a general issue in DC IME. Wonder what the story is in Philly?

I've been to large trade shows in Atlanta and Orlando recently and both of those cities have large convention centers and plenty of hotels and cheap flights. Next year it will be in Denver.

I agree with the above poster about segregating the floor space depending on the type of wares you are peddling. That could actually open up the choices since a single large, contiguous floor space would not be the only deciding factor.

Let's give the new management team a chance. I am hopeful they will bring some fresh ideas to the table.

I've worked all over the Detroit area. The area by the stadiums and casinos is quite safe. The area by the Penobscot building downtown is also pretty good.

With the construction of City Center a lot of hotels have opened up in the area. Unfortunately most, if not all hotels, are valet parking only. The Hampton Inn on Mass. Ave charges $59/night and the Homewood Suites on New York Ave charges $49/night. The Marriott Marquis next door charges $60.18/night. The closest parking garage is at City Center on 9th and H Streets about 3 blocks south. During the week it is $19 all day or $14 early bird (in by 9 out by 6). Weekends is flat rate $10.

The Marriott Marquis is directly next to and connected to the convention center. There are two smaller hotels very close to the Marquis on the opposite side. I think that's 2 blocks from the main entrance of the convention center. The Renaissance Hotel (side entrance) is directly across the street from the Carnegie Library. The main entrance (valet parking drop off) of that Renaissance is directly across the street from a parking lot (which was the site of the old convention center pre 2003). The Grand Hyatt is behind that parking lot and it is directly diagonally from the Convention Center. I think that's about 2 blocks.

The convention center's largest space is two levels from street level to their main exhibit area and I believe (when all partitions are opened) that it is large enough to have the National there.

Grand Hyatt is on H between 10th and 11th. City Center is part of the former Convention site along with the building on NY Ave that has Tiffany's along with the parking lot.

You are right about the lower space in the Walter Washington Convention Center. Earlier post I mentioned it is about 4 football fields long and one half of the width is a little less than a football field and the other half is a little larger than one.

As someone mentioned earlier it is a heavily unionized building. You cannot cart your own items in, only carry them.

Of the other venues Chicago seems to be the easiest for dealers - drive your car into the building and use any cart you wish. The IX Center only allowed two wheel carts. I cannot speak about AC, but several dealers mentioned it is unionized and they dared not move anything.

I would be fine with it staying in Rosemont.
.

+1. It's got all the bases covered, settle in there so going to the National will come to be routine as to the particulars.

There are two major hotels directly adjacent to the Richmond Convention Center where any number of specific activities like autograph signings could take place.

Smaller venues are fine too if you’re bringing the show to other parts of the country besides the major cities. Not everyone can make it to AC or Cleveland. Route 95 runs right though Richmond and the airport is 15 minutes from downtown. It’s a great location.

Besides being too small, I'm not envisioning many people being interested in heading to Richmond for a week. While one side of the argument can say it's a decent midpoint for NY/NJ and Florida collectors (both of which represent a huge portion of the hobby), others just wouldn't understand it as a destination for such an event. I'm quite amazed how much it's been brought up in this thread.

I think I've asked this before, but what about Cincinnati? What a perfect town from a baseball history perspective. It's also going to be about the same amount of travel for most people as going to Chicago. There has to be a space with enough room in that city, doesn't there? Lots of hotels.

Similarly, how about St. Louis? Might bring in more people from west of the Mississippi. Let's make everyone travel!

With the rich baseball histories of both cities, in addition to the fact that they were both historically booming places, there would be a lot of opportunities for great surprise walk-in discoveries!

I may be wrong, but I'm guessing that more dealers had rather spend the night in a casino than at a ballpark.

Richmond is 2 hours from Virginia Beach, 2 hours from DC and 2 hours from the mountains. Baltimore is an easy 3 hour drive. The city is a foodie destination with tons of Civil War history, NASCAR and Class IV rapids running right through the city on the James River. Historic Charlottesville is an hour to the west and Colonial Williamsburg is 45 minutes to the east. With Route 95 (north and south) and Route 64 (east and west) running through the city, its a great location for those traveling by car. Richmond International airport is here, Norfolk International is 90 minutes away, and Dulles or Reagan airports are 90 minutes to 2 hours north. That's 4 major airports nearby.

Richmond deserves serious consideration.

I used to love the Tuff Stuff shows at the Virginia State Fairgrounds in the 1990's Attachment 532141

I moved to Richmond in late 1997 and enjoyed the remaining years of the Tuff Stuff shows. They had quality autograph guests and put on a great show.

Me too. It is an easy trip and always a pleasant show.

And pizza!

There is no way that they would be looking to go to a smaller venue. They are looking to expand the size of the show, not make it smaller. I am also in the keep it in Chicago every year camp.

If the people in charge of the show think that, then that is exactly the pedestrian thinking that will not allow the hobby to grow. You have to bring the hobby to people who otherwise won't get to experience a show like that. Doing a smaller venue entices people to go visit the larger venue the next year because then they're hooked. Richmond used to have the Tuff Stuff shows here for years and they were extremely well received. CSA does major sportscard shows in Northern Virginia and they do well and have great autograph guests.

Do Richmond, then Chicago, then another smaller city, then another larger one.

I'm not sure, but I believe the decision on the National's location for 2024 and 2025 gets decided this week. Attachment 532232

Appreciate your passion for Richmond. Not seeing the national happen there though. The Civil War history there that you referenced before is probably not a big draw for many.

Jim, I've lived in No. Va. my entire life, and I enjoyed going to the Tuff Stuff Shows back in the 1990's. But, tell me Jim, what caused their demise? Naturally, I'd love for the National to be held in Richmond, but quite frankly, there isn't a snowball's chance. BTW, how many Nationals have you attended (not trying to be mean - just curious)?

I can certainly understand that, but its just one of the many cool things here.

If I remember correctly, the company that owned the Tuff Stuff show was bought out by Krause Publications and moved shop to Iowa, maybe?

I have been to 2 Nationals. Both of them were more years ago than I care to think about and probably older than than some people here. I have also been to dozens of card shows over the years, both large and small. I would have loved to attend more Nationals over the years but job and family cut into that. I had actually thought about making the drive up 95 to AC but other things became a priority, sadly.

I like Chicago...many flights, variety of other entertainment that should hit everyone's desires, lakefront, food, sports, etc. I am happy with how they have it now with Chigao every other year though...every year and you are still in theory eliminating a portion of your audience (travelers with limited mobility, those that can only drive, etc.). What I think would be a better option is truly rotating that "off year" all over. Cleveland has done well...then jump it to LA...then Houston....Orlando...Vegas...AC (ugh)....try to reach as many people a you can. I am happy to go every other year if it lands in a location I don't want to haul my butt to on the "off years"...and if it lands in a place convenient to me...Cleveland, LV, LA, San Diego, Detroit, etc...great....but try to cater to the larger community.

I think that’s a solid take. I like AC because it is convenient for me and I like the casino diversion, but Chicago every other year and a rotation of 5-6 other locations makes a lot of sense. If I was a dealer I would be concerned about an untested location bombing but that’s prob not likely in this environment.

QUOTE=isiahfan;2259140]I like Chicago...many flights, variety of other

entertainment that should hit everyone's desires, lakefront, food, sports, etc. I am happy with how they have it now with Chigao every other year though...every year and you are still in theory eliminating a portion of your audience (travelers with limited mobility, those that can only drive, etc.). What I think would be a better option is truly rotating that "off year" all over. Cleveland has done well...then jump it to LA...then Houston....Orlando...Vegas...AC (ugh)....try to reach as many people a you can. I am happy to go every other year if it lands in a location I don't want to haul my butt to on the "off years"...and if it lands in a place convenient to me...Cleveland, LV, LA, San Diego, Detroit, etc...great....but try to cater to the larger community.[/QUOTE]

Pizza? You mean that four inch deep fondue of cheese and sauce?

Correct, Tuff-Stuff sold to Krause publications. I recall one of the last Tuff-Stuff shows where the owners (brothers I believe) were sitting at a table near the entrance answering questions. Not an engaging happy pair. I knew then, that Krause was not going to continue promoting shows. The Tuff-Stuff shows coupled with the monthly show in Tysons Corner was a boon for my collection.

National sites announced
 

FUTURE NATIONAL SITES ANNOUNCED
The results of the ballot sent to eligible voters are in and the NSCC Board of Directors is pleased to announce the sites for future events.

2023 Chicago (Rosemont) July 26-30, 2023
2024 Cleveland IX Center July 24-28, 2024
2025 Chicago (Rosemont) July 30-August 3, 2025

Generally super happy with this...but would really hope the next location listed is West of Chicago.