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Talkin "Black Sox " guys....show your Tobacco, Candy, etc. cards of those "involved"
I will start this show with "Chick" Gandil......
https://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan...460x%20_2_.jpg https://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan...60xb%20_2_.jpg http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...andilRHx50.jpg . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...ndilRHx50b.jpg The "Black Sox" scandal of the 1919 World Series has been a controversial story for 102+ years. I recommend a well written book on this subject titled "RED LEGS and BLACK SOX", by Susan Dellinger. Susan's source for the events in that BB season of 1919 are her Grandparents.....HOFer Edd Roush. . https://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan...v460%20_3_.jpg https://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan...460b%20_2_.jpg TED Z T206 Reference . |
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Here’s a couple with ol’ Buck.
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"Sleepy" Bill Burns.
16 year old me first heard the name in Eight Men Out. Christopher Lloyd turned in a very good performance and brought the character to life. I have never been able to separate the two. |
Ted,
Although he was considered to be uninvolved, "Cocky" Eddie Collins, did hit a measly .226 that world series. I really need to work on my prewar collection! https://i.imgur.com/qMXQk10.jpg?1 |
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"Knuckles" Cicotte, the grossly underpaid White Sox star pitcher, lost 2 of his 3 starts in the 1919 World Series. He was the first of the 8 men to confess his participation in the scandal.
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Here a few, the 1922 strip has Eddie Collins and Ray Shalk
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Talkin "Black Sox " guys....show your Tobacco, Candy, etc. cards of those "involved"
Two 1919 World Series opposing Infielders from neighboring towns here in Pennsylvania....who grew up near where we live here in Pennsy.
https://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan...Daubert50x.jpg . . . . https://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan...erObak1911.jpg https://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan...rObak1911b.jpg RED LEGS -------------------------------------------------------- WHITE SOX TED Z T206 Reference . |
The "9th Man Out".
I like to throw curve balls. https://www.net54baseball.com/pictur...ictureid=33175 Ben "I love baseball history backstory; especially when it involves cards." |
Et cetera
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On his way back to Chicago after a game in Boston, Chick Gandil met with a group of gamblers at the Ansonia. The rest, as we say, is history.
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T205 Cicotte
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Here is my Blacksox contribution.
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Don't recall seeing this posted:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/4GdVT72Cnt2WrDPdA https://photos.app.goo.gl/4GdVT72Cnt2WrDPdA |
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He picks up the save in Game 1 and no-hits this squad in Game 2. (May 6, 1917) https://www.net54baseball.com/pictur...ictureid=33178 Ben "I love baseball history backstory; especially when it involves cards." |
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here are a couple to contribute
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Here’s an auto of Abe Attell I picked up off here last month
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................ just to add to Ted's fine Chick run ............... :)
Attachment 511762 Fun, fun, Scott :rolleyes: |
Talkin "Black Sox " guys....show your Tobacco, Candy, etc. cards of those "involved"
Joe Jackson
In the 8 games of the 1919 World Series his stats are..... AB = 32 BA = .375 H = 12 HR = 1 RBI = 6 OPS = .956 Does his batting performance look like he "he was in on the fix" ? ? Furthermore, his fielding performance in the Outfield was great (including throwing-out runners trying to score at Home Plate). .https://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan...duSR%20_2_.jpg . https://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan...JacksonNOb.jpg Joe Jax card courtesy Scot Reader TED Z T206 Reference . |
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Here is my contribution
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I agree I love the look of that Buck Weaver Card and sharp colors |
Could someone fill me in on why general consensus is certain that Collins wasn't involved?
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...b6d31cfc_c.jpg |
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I just cosigned and sold most of my Black Sox cards to pursue other endeavors (including my 1915 Zeenuts of Risberg and McMullin to REA) but will never part with this one...1917 Bill Burns Zeenut
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Hi Ted!
I hope that all is well with you. Is that T206 Chick Sovereign in your first post missing the red color pass? Great cards Ted (and everyone else as well!! |
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Eddie
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My humble contribution to this thread
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Black Sox
Great stuff guys, never enough Black Sox for me ! Although not cards thought you guys would like to see these Sox related pieces. First a full page newspaper, The Boston Post from Sept. 1920 only one day after Cicotte and Jackson first confessed to being crooked. Second a rather unique auto of one of the scandals ring leaders, Arnold "Chick" Gandil.
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...e4de7169_c.jpgBoston Post Headlines, September 29`th 1920 by Hugh Murphy, on Flickr https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...f3d25ed7_z.jpgArnold "Chick" Gandil, Ring leader of 1919 Black Sox by Hugh Murphy, on Flickr |
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https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...ce8c5b52_c.jpg |
Talkin "Black Sox " guys....show your Tobacco, Candy, etc. cards of those "involved"
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Great to hear from you, Steve That was an old scan taken with my old scanner 14 years ago. Here is a scan of the PIEDMONT and SOVEREIGN Gandil's taken this evening with my new scanner. The SOVEREIGN version has just a tinge of red (or is it pink ink). .https://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan...v460%20_2_.jpg https://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan...460b%20_2_.jpg TED Z T206 Reference . |
Jackson
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Cool cabinet of the 1908 Greenville Spinners team who he was with (pre-rookie) when he went shoeless. 12” by 14”. Beautiful silvering and detail. ❤️⚾️
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Here's my Abe Attell rookie (at least I've read it is his rookie somewhere).
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That's 122 lbs., for those keeping score at home. |
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Talkin "Black Sox " guys....show your Tobacco, Candy, etc. cards of those "involved"
Buck Weaver is my favorite OBAK card, too......along with Ten Million.
https://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan...erObak1911.jpg ------ https://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan...TenMillion.jpg TED Z T206 Reference . |
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Buck
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I guess my uncertainty is that without being in the room that the discussions were happening, some of who was or wasn't involved is hearsay. Were there multiple, definitive, under oath statements that cleared Collins from any suspicion? |
Am a bit embarrassed to admit that I'm not sure if this photo is mine or that I just scabbed the jpeg from the internet. My collection is a tad disorganized. Either way Happy Landis belongs in this thread.
https://photos.imageevent.com/kawika...M%20Landis.jpg Plus some more of Buck Weaver . . https://photos.imageevent.com/kawika...7%20Weaver.jpg https://photos.imageevent.com/kawika...k%20Weaver.jpg https://photos.imageevent.com/kawika...0%20Weaver.jpg https://photos.imageevent.com/kawika...B%20Weaver.jpg https://photos.imageevent.com/kawika...k%20Weaver.jpg OK. I'm done. |
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Charles A. "Chick" Gandil. First baseman for the Washington Senators in 1912-1915. 1,176 hits and 151 stolen bases in 9 MLB seasons. 1917 World Series champion. He led AL first baseman in fielding percentage 4 times. He debuted with the Chicago White Sox in 1910. His best season was 1913 with Washington as he posted a .363 OBP with 72 RBI's and 22 stolen bases in 603 plate appearances. He finished his career with the Chicago White Sox in 1917-1919. He is best known as the "ringleader" of the players involved in the 1919 Black Sox scandal.
From Gandil's SABR biography: Prior to his infamous involvement in the 1919 Black Sox Scandal, Chick Gandil was one of the most highly regarded first basemen in the American League, both for his play on the field and his solid work ethic. In 1916 a Cleveland newspaper described Gandil as “a most likeable player, and one of excellent habits.” From 1912 to 1915 the right-handed Gandil starred for the Washington Senators, leading the club in runs batted in three times and batting .293. In the field Gandil paced American League first sackers in fielding percentage four times and in assists three times. He continued his strong work with the Chicago White Sox from 1917 to 1919, helping the club to two American League pennants before forever tarnishing his legacy by helping to fix the 1919 World Series. Yet Gandil may have been the only banished player who gained more than he lost from the fix. After the 1919 World Series, the first baseman retired from major-league baseball, reportedly taking $35,000 in cash with him. https://www.net54baseball.com/attach...1&d=1649866424 https://www.net54baseball.com/attach...1&d=1649866428 |
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Cicotte in green.
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I am sure you can google and find more history about it. But other were suspended for life for their roles and he was not. He not only was not suspended but kept playing to a great HOF career. Remember technically the 8 were acquitted in the courts but Landry the New Commisioner took the facts he had in front of him and made his decision. And the rest is history |
David, I always thought this was a great photo of Landis...I sometimes like to attach it to my posts to make sure my disgust/disapproval is properly and effectively expressed.
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In any sad tale, there needs to be an antagonist that pushes individuals to extreme, regretful measures. Charles Comiskey serves in this capacity for the Black Sox, and shall be known forever in this thread as the 'Tightwad Disgruntler of the Disgruntled'.
Brian (M101 blank back, either M101-4 or M101-5...who knows). Post-script...Todd knows! It is a M101-4. Because in M101-4, Comiskey has his name spelled correctly, while in M101-5, his last name is missing the 'e'. I have just enough of the bottom of this card to make this identification. Thanks Todd! |
Talkin "Black Sox " guys....show your Tobacco, Candy, etc. cards of those "involved"
In the 1960's, Chick Gandil was interviewed by a Sports writer regarding his Chicago White Sox teammates. Gandil's comment about Buck Weaver......is interesting: "At 3rd Base he was an aggressive, snappy type. A good hitter, he always knew the latest jokes, was a master bench jockey and a scrapper, as Billy Martin is today." https://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan...460x%20_2_.jpghttps://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan...erRC%20_2_.jpghttps://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan...illyMartin.jpg TED Z T206 Reference . |
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Cicotte & Jax
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Forgot the Jax
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Talkin "Black Sox " guys....show your Tobacco, Candy, etc. cards of those "involved"
Eddie Cicotte's 1917 W - L = 28 - 12 (White Sox are World Champs)
Eddie Cicotte's 1919 W - L = 29 - 7 (White Sox are AL Champs) Comiskey had promised Eddie Cicotte a $10,000 bonus if he could win 30 games in a season. In 1919, when Cicotte closed in on the 30-game goal, Comiskey had him benched to keep him from reaching the mark. Comiskey's stated reason for having manager Kid Gleason bench Cicotte was that with the Sox headed for the World Series he had to protect his star pitcher's arm. What a laugh....Cicotte was a "knuckle-ball" pitcher (and a very effective one). Both Cicotte and Gandil requested salary hikes.....Comiskey denied them both. The rest is history. https://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan...150b%20_2_.jpg . https://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan...d150%20_2_.jpg TED Z T206 Reference . |
A couple more
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A few more of dishonest (?) Abe (accused but not convicted)
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Brian |
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I have the matching Joe Jackson |
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Cicotte won his 29th game on September 19, he made 2 more starts after that. On September 24 he pitched against the Browns and gave up 5 Earned runs and 11 hits in 7 innings. His last start on September 28 against the Tigers, he only pitched 2 innings and gave up 1 run on 3 hits. He had a legitimate shot at 30 wins but pitched poorly. |
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Im just disputing the myth that he was benched. 8 Men Out has so many lies and myths, it should be a work of fiction. Its a shame that people continue to believe the lies when everything can be so easily checked today. |
Talkin "Black Sox " guys....show your Tobacco, Candy, etc. cards of those "involved"
James..... "You're getting this from 8 Men Out and its wrong."
I have never seen the movie "Eight Men Out".....so, your assuming I did is incorrect. I read what I posted regarding Comiskey / Cicotte many years ago; and, I don't recall the source. Much information regarding this situation has been Sports writers theories, so we really don't know what the real facts are. And, we'll most likely never know. TED Z . |
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Various larger sized items...
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Brian |
Talkin "Black Sox " guys....show your Tobacco, Candy, etc. cards of those "involved"
From my archives and found this "rustic" W519-2 card of Manager Kid Gleason (issued in 1920). He managed the White Sox from 1919 - 1923.
His best season was 1920 with a W - L record of 96 - 58 (good enough for a 2nd place finish in the AL. https://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan...W519%20_2_.jpg TED Z T206 Reference . |
Talkin "Black Sox " guys....show your Tobacco, Candy, etc. cards of those "involved"
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Really great team pictures....thanks for posting them. TED Z T206 Reference . |
Talkin "Black Sox " guys....show your Tobacco, Candy, etc. cards of those "involved"
I acquired this 1919 White Sox team poster some years ago.
It is framed, and on display in my Sportscard office surrounded by all my vintage BB and FB uncut sheets. I have no idea where it originally came from. Perhaps someone on this forum can identify the source of it. 10 1/2" x 16" Poster https://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan...pper%20_2_.jpghttps://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan...ower%20_4_.jpg TED Z T206 Reference . |
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https://www.ebay.com/itm/33415554707...SABEgLMTPD_BwE It's a 75th anniversary commemorative poster numbered to 1500. |
Talkin "Black Sox " guys....show your Tobacco, Candy, etc. cards of those "involved"
Thanks Pat
The poster currently on ebay is slightly different than the one I have. In size and color. Apparently, this poster was replicated by more than one printer. I usually remember where (or from whom) I acquire my stuff from. It was quite a number of years ago that I purchased this poster. I think it was from a Hobby Shop in Bucks County, Pennsylvania. I do recall though, that I paid only $5 for it. It cost me $55 to frame it. It is a cool poster, so it's worth it. TED Z T206 Reference . |
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Lucky to have an original supplement from Feb 1919 (the full supplement which also features the 1919 Cubs on another page)
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that 1919 team Underwood photo is missing the last player on the right sitting name and thus the person who underlined the 8 men out incorrectly has Byrd Lynn underlined instead of Lefty Williams
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Win Noyes
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Win Noyes 1912 Home Run Kisses. Interesting coincidences...Noyes a solid PCL player (like most of the Black Sox) was invited to spring training in 1920 but didnt show up and ended up playing in the same league (Snake River League) as Chick Gandil...
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Fact of the matter is Cicotte did have a 30 game bonus kicker on his contract for 1919...it was a carry over contract from the previous season 1918. The amount of the kicker is not presently known (10,000 seems way to high). Was he bench on purpose...was he mad...who knows...Cicotte in his own grand jury testimony did not mention this at all so that seems to point to it not being a motive of his....
HOWEVER this does sound like something he would have told his wife and kids to try to mitigate his own actions and thus lived on and is still believed by the Cicotte family (several have given newspaper interviews saying as much). Asinof writing Eight Men Out simply went with the prevailing thought of the time (1950s-60s) so I give him a pass. He did interview Hap Felsch, Red Faber, Hugo Friend, and Abe Attell which all had involvement in the scandal in some way which is more than anyone writing now can say. (attached Feb 1918 newspaper clipping citing Cicotte's 30 game bonus) Likely Cicotte had bonus kickers several win levels (like 20 games, 25 games and 30 games or something like that) |
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Yes the ones on ebay are a copy of an original Chicago Tribune page that sold in a heritage auction. Here's the original that sold in Heritage with the same stain as the copy's. https://sports.ha.com/itm/baseball/1...ription-071515 |
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Baseball reference says he received a $2000 bonus in 1917 for winning 28 games but a newspaper clip states that Chick Gandil said he never received the bonus. March 14 1921 Attachment 512343 January 23 1918 Attachment 512344 September 20 1919 Attachment 512345 The real facts of the bonus should be known if his 1919 contract does come up for sale this year. https://www.sportscollectorsdaily.co...ter-this-year/ |
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Talkin "Black Sox " guys....show your Tobacco, Candy, etc. cards of those "involved"
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https://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan...Book%20_2_.jpg TED Z T206 Reference . |
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Ted, this rarity might fit in with your Gandil back run:
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1914 Polo Grounds Collins
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I’ll add my humble 1914 Polo Grounds Collins to the mix
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My W514 White/Black Sox strip cards.
Currently just missing the Cicotte to complete the team set. https://i.ibb.co/563vX5f/IMG-3021.jpg |
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