Forum Member Dilemma
 

I get put into the role of decision maker on things concerning members as it goes with the territory. Some decisions are easily made and others not so much.
I am in discussions with a member wanting to come back, after a recent banishment, and I am not sure about it so I will pose the question to the forum.
Long story short, I got a PM from a very long time member, and someone I know, concerning a deal that went bad on the BST. This member sold another member a card and when the buyer got it he said the case was cracked and wanted a return. The very good member said no problem. But when he got the card back it is clearly just a piece of tape on the holder. One second of rubbing it would tell you the case isn't cracked.
As I was looking at the registration of the buyer I noted he gave a false name on his registration. That is a huge red flag for me and generally a 0 tolerance issue and banishment. But this member has been here well over a year, maybe 2, with over 500 posts.
He said he just made a mistake on the registration.

In my mind these are 2 pretty big lies.
I will take this poll into consideration but won't rely on it completely. Did I mention how much I dislike lying on a registration?

* I should mention the buyer had put his user id down twice..instead of his real name....and said it was an accident ..

I think go with your first instinct.

I'm with Scott. Go with your instinct on this one.

I thought the unwritten rule was as long as no one lost cash no one got banned. Unless it is one of crazy Mathews many accounts, then ban.:)

Anyone can tell the difference between tape and a cracked holder. Then the fact that they could have come clean but choose to lie to you directly about putting in his user ID twice instead of his name isn't an accident. Seems like a serious future problem waiting to happen. Me personally, I would prefer not to deal with members like that. I would also say stick with your gut.

Edit: Spelling

I don't think I have as much problem with the lie of the return (maybe an infraction for that) but the lying about the name, when this forum mandates names, is potentially cause for more concern.
I do need to say, much after the fact, this member did put his name under his id....but the registration was a total lie to me. (as well as the case issue)
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and a card because every thread needs one, or some...

Leon, did the buyer have his real name under his user ID when making posts? I can at least understand putting the ID down twice a little better than making a completely fictitious name. I think it really comes down to intent and not sure the name issue would be intentional. With the cracked case it seems the buyer wasn't satisfied, would it have made a difference if he just said he wasn't satisfied and wanted to return it? I don't like that he lied about the cause but if he wasn't satisfied.

Another view
 

Okay I’m not sure about this and so I feel differently. The registration thing sounds plausible…. and it is so subtle an error that no one even noticed for over a year. The case crack deal…. kind of sketchy, maybe it was buyers remorse with a lame excuse? I’ve gotten delivery of a group of cards one time and they just weren’t what was described. The seller refunded my money and I didn’t even have to make up any BS story… most of us would probably issue a refund once any cards are received for whatever the reason the buyer wanted although it shouldn’t happen very often. Finally, there are some great guys on here and a few quirky ones too… not dishonest but just kinda different, maybe this guy is one of them. His 500 posts and otherwise good record would buy him a bit of leniency but maybe with a warning …. this is why I would be a lousy policeman, I always think the best and sometimes I get burned! LOL

If I purchased a card from a forum member and sent it back due to cracked case, and found out later it was just tape, I'd apologize profusely and make good on the original purchase and cover the extra shipping fees so the seller saw no additional loss of money.

Is this the action the banned member is attempting to make?

For registration, did they put "tiger8mush" (userID) in name instead of "Rob G."? Or did they put a totally false name like "Jose Canseco"? Some days there is a thin line between misunderstanding, low IQ, and being a liar :)

He put his real name under his id but I don't know exactly when. And I totally agree it was buyers remorse with a BS made up reason for returning. The seller is a great member and would have taken the return if the buyer was just not happy with it. That card has been sold to someone else now.
And the member in question offered, to me, to make good on that deal. But after the fact come-clean deals hold less weight.
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I like cards too

Character and integrity should mean something. Keep the ban

Is the offender sorry, because he misses interacting with fellow card collectors, and can no longer add quality posts that contribute to the forum's overall experience, knowledge, and value?

Or is he only sorry, because he lost access to the B/S/T venue?

I'm a second chance type of guy. However, that doesn't mean the offender should escape punishment even after a banishment period.

Maybe let him in, but banish him from the B/S/T venue for six months or however long you feel his offenses warrant.

Isn't this supposed to be the new era of personal accountability? Thumbs down.

I think integrity on this site matters a lot, I would keep the ban. Not the kind of behavior want to excuse or deal with.

I said yes. I also have hesitations about this too. With their contributions at some point the name issue became less of an issue because he posted his real name under screen name per board rules. I totally understand Leons view of this also. For registration maybe when they first signed up they were just checking it out and didn't want to fully commit info they thought was not important at the time. After they decided to stay it was to late to make changes. Leon should have been notified by them so the changes could have been made. I have been guilty of this with some other boards I visited. The ones I liked I registered again with my real info and the others I just closed out and have zero interest in.

As far as the BST maybe a severe or permanent ban would be best. That would allow them to still contribute but not make deals directly on the BST. Guess we would see how important the board is to them. In a few years or whatever they could get a review and decision on whether or not they could be allowed on the BST again.

To add: If they are of no contribution to the board and its members then hold them accountable for a full ban.

JMO, but most scammers give warning signs before they seriously rip a person off.

How would you feel if you let him back, despite the red flags and he scammed someone for a lot of money?

I don't remember the "form" I filled out when I registered here, but I do know that more than once I have filled out a form and made a dumb mistake, like putting last name in the first name box or whatever. If all his other information was correct, this might make me think it was a brain fart instead of malice.

The transaction comes across as a feeble buyer's remorse incident, I don't have a solid opinion either way on how to address that.

KS

Leon, I don't envy your position as the person that has to make these type of decisions. I agree with what some have already stated. Go with your gut. Do what you think is best for Net54 board. You have done a good job so far.

Not sure if this is sarcasm or not, but I'm not seeing personal responsibility anywhere!! I sure wish you were right!

Allow member to come clean in this thread, and then reinstate fully. If he's a good boy then all will be forgotten by the weekend :)

I don't know about all being forgotten but I have made this offer to the buyer. If he does, I would lean towards reinstatement. If not, I am leaning the other way....but the jury is still out.

and a 1941 Wheaties card of DiMaggio, 5 x 7...never seen another or even from the set. But a respected board member has some...not sure if he has Joe D...

Yes; broken window policing theory.

Leon, I don't envy you having to make these decisions. Thank you for taking on this load so that we can have a place to discuss our hobby.

About the name, to me, the severity of the mistake matters. If his name was Tim, but he typed Tom, or he flip flopped his first and last names, maybe he's just a bad typist, or he misread the form. But if he gave his name as Mickey Mouse, well, that's different.

For the buyer's remorse, I think a suspension from the BST is in order, and if he becomes a repeat offender, ban him from the site.

Leon

As others said we trust you and I agree I would not want to have to make that decision myself but since the forum votes and most agree with the ban it is more a group decision.
OR if you feel on the fence then ban that person for a period of time and then let them back in after time served

Break out the popcorn! Reinstatement isn't guaranteed though.
.

People deserve second chances. I'd give him a second chance, though with conditions.

I look at these situations in many different ways...
The following reply would be one of them!

I believe in sincerity... or lack there of!
Forgiveness with the opportunity to rejoin the community
is at Leon's discretion...

Forgiveness through banishment is also Mr Leon's weight to bare...

He's been doing this fir quite some time now!

"And He is very Very VerY Good at it!!!" :)

I like the decision in part
 

To me it comes down to facts and intent.

1) Name - facts sound clear - he didn't use his name - intent? Was there an intent to deceive - based on the fact that he didn't (deceive) anyone and did put his name in at some point this seems like good reason for a second chance on the boards with a public apology (as decided).

2) BST transaction - Are the facts clear? Did he admit to knowing there was no crack and just had buyers remorse? If so, I would support a time-limited (3 month, 6 month?) ban from the BST. If it's not clear that it was buyers remorse and could have been an honest mistake then I think the decision as made stands.

Reinstate with no BST for 90 days.

Some people use a fake name in profiles because they simply don't want to be found. I know of a buyer that uses a different name on facebook because he's a high school principal and is afraid of the kids finding him. Different strokes for different folks.

As for the tape, my eyes play tricks on me sometimes I find, as I get older. We don't all have 20/20.

I'd give him a strike 3.

It should be interesting. The buyer has said he might come on this thread.

FYI, here is what is asked for at registration, as you all know.

1. Username -
2. First & Last name -
3. Daytime ph# (might be called for verification) -




.

Make him wear a "I Love Kevin Mize" t-shirt and post it as his Avatar for 60 days then let him off the hook.

Or that picture of Adrian in his bedroom with the Wagner LOL
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Tough spot Leon. I don't like dishonesty one bit. But I don't like it when I over-react. I'm not insinuating an over-reaction on your part, but I've done it myself before. I favor the idea of re-instatement with a lengthy BST ban. Like Andrew mentioned, that will show if the member is here strictly for BST privileges or the overall comradery of the community.

AND make him copy verbatim the solitary post of AcellaGet 100 times. By hand. In crayon.

And after looking it up, I can see why you would remember it. LOL

Hope you all have your popcorn ready!

I am the member being discussed here.

The site registration. Yup, I totally entered fake info. Guilty. When I first heard of this site (mentioned in a reddit comment), I wanted simply to check it out, and when prompted to enter a bunch of personal info (as so many websites do these days), I entered the first thing that came to mind - a portmanteau of two Mets players from my youth.

I added my real name to my signature/avatar/whatever-it's-called probably sometime last year. I have no problem sharing any info with Leon or anyone else at this point, as I now know that this is not some spammy website that wants to sell my data, but a community of real people, many of whom have met each other in person. Had I thought to retroactively change it in the system, and had I known it was possible (I'm not sure if it is), I would have. I fully accept it if Leon and/or others come to view this as a form of irredeemable deception. I certainly regret it, if for no other reason than that it will have caused some in here to doubt my integrity.

The returned card. Not guilty by reason of being a moron.

Some background: the member who was selling this card, whom I'll call "Dave" (not their real name) and I have done B/S/T deals prior to the one being discussed, and have had what I have viewed as great relationship, talking cards generally and such. He even referred to me another member when I asked him about some cards, and I later ended up purchasing some from this other member. (This is relevant to what I write later on.)

The transaction: Yes, as unlikely it seems many responding to this thread will believe, I truly thought was a crack in the slab. I have attached more pictures to show how it looked from other angles. I feel incredibly stupid knowing how we got to this point, but that it what I'm guilty of.

Had I simply had buyer's remorse (I didn't, as the card itself was nicer than in the pictures Dave had sent me, and it was a HOFer at a fair price), I would have simply told him so, and with confidence that he would have gladly accepted it back.

So, I took these photos (within minutes of opening the package) and send them to Dave, asking him what he wants to do. He acknowledged the perceived slab damage when I sent him the photos, and apologized. He asked me to send it back so that he could make a USPS insurance claim. I immediately shipped it back to him (about one week ago) and sent him the tracking number.

I woke up Monday to find that Leon had banned my account, and had no idea why. Dave had not contacted me when he received the card back. Had he done so, I would have gladly accepted the card back and paid the shipping. When Leon explained to me the reasons for the account ban, I contacted Dave again and he had this to say:

"I almost had sent the claim off to the post office too but wanted to snap one last pic before I did...glad I did."

I wrote back to him that, despite his being apparently convinced that I intentionally "faked" a damaged slab (it would never have occurred to me to do that, nor do I understand what it is I would have been trying to accomplish by doing so), I find notable the fact that that he also, with the card in hard, thought it was damaged until the very last second before mailing it out. (And Dave has been in the hobby for decades, as opposed to me, who never handled a slabbed card until early 2020!)

As far as my reputation, I have done deals on here with everyone listed in my signature, and I am confident that not one of them will have a single bad thing to say about me.

That's about all for now I suppose. Whatever Leon and/or the group decides, I have enjoyed being a part of this community and I wish you all the best.

Matthew (my real name)

Never mind, I edited out my comment because it made no sense.

Honestly the whole thing with thinking tape was a crack thing sounds like something hastily stupid I might be prone to do. I sometimes get super hot if I think a seller has been careless in any way upon first opening something in the mail. For example, the guy who sent me a '67 Orlando Cepeda ("EX-MT") that was poking halfway out of an unsecured toploader last year.

Usually I get rational before making a return or moving to the next step, though.

Sounds sincere. Just a big misunderstanding all around.

https://media0.giphy.com/media/QtoG2...200w.webp&ct=g

I originally voted to ban, but after reading this I have changed my mind. The name thing with the site registration is bone headed, but if Leon banned people for bone headed things I would have been banned a long time ago (as with many others too). FWIW, there is another member that uses a fake name and I have even PM'd the admins about it, but he continues to use that name. Note sure why something hasn't been done, but I don't run the site.

As far as the card return, the explanation sounds plausible to me. I don't think it was a case of buyer's remorse.

That's just my $.02

I am of the mind that he should stay, but how about clipping those frickin' nails, guy????? :cool:

FWIW there are several including one with multiple fake names.

This is not the same Mathew I referred to in my other post.

I vote we let him stay. Others have done WAY worse without being banned.

After hearing his side and seeing all the deals he's already made with long time members, I voted No. I still believe some BST restriction should be implemented.

Matthew must realize that some may still be skeptical of dealing with him in the future if he is allowed back on the BST.

Never gets old.



Attachment 505281

I originally voted that he should be banned, but after reading his post I'm more willing to let him stay.

Both of these mistakes are certainly plausible/understandable, so I vote that we let him stay.

He should also rebuy that card now that we know there are no issues with the holder, and pay for the shipping back to him.

I voted to ban early on and would like to change that vote. Also, can someone add some backstory about the Wagner pic. Very interested.

Guy came on here claiming he had a Wagner to sell. Everyone called BS. He posted this photoshopped pic of himself. We had a field day. The paper towels in the background certainly didn't help his cause.

Folks then proceeded to photoshop him with everything from the Mona Lisa to who knows what else. It was damn funny.

I just tried to find the thread but to no avail - can someone better than me at searching on here find it??

Here's one of them.

The Nun's Wagner
https://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=163800

And here's the thread that started it all. Said he'd had the Nun's Wagner in his family for a long time. :)

https://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=163782

124. Ban of the Year Roast (also Adrianaline Rush)
A thread where people gleefully celebrate a certain member being kicked off of the site.

See also: Defrostracized - when a member is allowed to return after a temporary banning.

Interesting! Amazing how people rush to judgement without knowing all the facts, or being initially presented with only one side/version of a story.

Welcome back
 

My opinion.

funny but agree

I was originally on the fence about this. After giving more thought and his explanation I think a second chance should be in place. I am in his sig line as dealing with and that is correct. I had no problems with the transaction.
Bob

Thanks for sharing the Wagner story!

Looking at the pictures of Andrew holding the Wagner, does anyone else see a gap between his thumb and the slab? If he had actually been holding it that way, he would've dropped it.

i initially voted to ban...ive changed my mind

He probably hadn't used the paper towels at that point and it just stuck there.

member
 

Come back on probation

Ahhh, good times…..good times.

Now only if we can get a picture of that “archive” guy.

OK, that was funny!:

Just sounds like a new collector being overly cautious. If he buys the card again and adds $20 or whatever to cover shipping, I'd say all is forgiven.

+1

Let him stay. Simply a misunderstanding.

First and last, my thinking is I'm supportive of it being Leon's decision. That's a starting point and also a finish line for my thoughts on that. But in between the two, there's this:

That's a nice card. I sold one, through Mr. Brockelman, I think, some time ago. Mine was slabbed and was not that nice. ANYONE with the money to buy that card should have enough sense and experience to gently rub a... fingernail across that plastic and quickly realize that it's only tape. So, it seems like buyer's remorse, and I agree with what someone said about the fellow trying to sell that should get reimbursed some postal expenses. If someone doesn't have enough sense to realize a bit of tape on the edge of a slab is no big deal, then they probably have no business participating on the BST.

BST problems are likely to increase. I suspect more stuff gets sold through here now than 6 months ago, partly because of the way eBay rules and actions have changed. So, vigilance over what's happening over there will be needed more as time goes by. It's like that guy said on Hillstreet Blues, "Guys, let's be careful out there."

My experience is to be suspicious of zero tolerance policies. "Zero Intelligence comes my mind when I hear that. Whenever a zero tolerance rule appears, eventually some set of circumstances come along that begs for justified reconsideration.

The name thing, I don't think that's a death blow, as set forth, necessarily. If I looked at all applying new member USER ID's and NAMES, it would be immediately obvious if the two entries were identical. If the USER ID was something that looked to be a first and last name, then that wouldn't seem a red flag to me. But if both were DEUCE (the name of my slightly overweight Dalmatian), then it should be obvious that DEUCE isn't a person's first and last name. This leaves me with a lack of certainty at whether he had an intent to deceive. I don't like the idea that someone might hunt me down to try to break in and take what collectibles may be in my house. I've not gotten rid of them all, nor are all in safety deposit boxes. While I doubt someone attempting that would find much (hell, I can't find cards myself around here sometimes), I still have tried to stay off of the monthly pickup threads. That scares me. And it worries me when someone here emails me asking about some card, and eventually wanting to see a scan. Some of the folks I think I know are easily welcome to a scan (if I can find the card) and a discussion. But when someone I don't know or only recently knows has asked, it worries me. I don't think I've even looked at a monthly pickup tread in a couple of years... I'm afraid to even look.

Over the years I've seen/experienced a handful of Leon's decisions with which I did not agree at that moment. And in almost all of them, I've come around to thinking that he made the proper decision. Golly, my job is decision-making, and I think Leon's pretty good at it.

I didn't vote. I don't feel sufficiently well informed to make a sound decision. I think the decision should maybe be previewed to the fellow who sold that Cy Young card twice, suffering from an initial return. And I couldn't pull the I Don't Care trigger because I do care.

With all of that jammed in between my initial thinking and finish line as mentioned above, that's what I think. Along with an increase in scrutiny of new members and vigilance on the BST. I do think that scrutiny and vigilance is and has been occurring, thank you for that. I just think that Leon might benefit from a bit of help with that from a couple of board members (guys that already assist here, I'd think).

I wish you well with that, Mr. L.

I'm just kind of disappointed to find out Bobby Strawberry isn't someone's real name. :cool:

So buyer upon registration didn't want to enter his personal info. Seems reasonable and I wonder what a full member audit would show, no idea what I entered when joining. Suspect that data is not very accurate.

Continuing, buyer is a good member for a few years, posts under his real name and has consummated multiple deals. Thinks a slab is compromised and agrees to a return with seller. Seller, on last inspection, realizes it is actually tape. Instead of reaching out to buyer, contacts forum host to have buyer banned.

Seller doesn't look great here IMO.

I initially voted to ban him, but changed my mind. I thought his explanation was plausible, genuine and contrite. Moving forward, I do not think he will be a detriment to this forum, and would like to see him stick around.

All are plausible excuses.
If he was trying a scam, maybe not send the card back?
Intentionally damage the case?
Switch card out?

As far as the registration, sometimes I feel hesitant to put personal information on a random site that I just wanted to get a feel for. Then as time goes on you forget, or think what you registered was okay?

I voted let stay, but I voted after he responded.

FWIW , I loathe a cheat,liar,and thief. I do Not think that is what we have here.
And finally, I have never dealt with this person.
Thomas

Same here. Second chance with conditions sounds fair.

I don't have an opinion on banning either way - I'm just baffled anybody could think that was a crack in the slab. It seems obvious from the photos and you can see the tape hanging over and surely it would FEEL different than...plastic?

Maybe he’s just not comfortable feeling cracks.

I say let him back. The explanation provided seems plausible and I can understand the hesitance to provide any personal information to sign up for a bulletin board.

If "Dave" is good with this and Matthew has provided the real information required to sign up for the board, then call it square and let it be a lesson learned that Matthew realizes that this board is legit.

Just curious, who was the player in the slab?

I would vote for D, None of my business, but I voted B, No, because I've been on here since Yoda's board, and Bobby Strawberry is one of the few people that has ever agreed with one of my takes, I think it was in the Doncic card thread. Anyway, good luck, it looks like the tribe has spoken. To me, OJ's don't need to be graded, I don't see what purpose it serves, you look at the photo.

I have used fake names on websites I didn't originally plan to spend much time with - and I would call it an "alias" rather than a fake name. So that is plausible to me. I use Norton, and one of the websites I signed up with was hacked and my password used for that site is exposed. Fortunately for me, I use a different password for every site I sign up with, but some people don't. Anyway, it makes me tread cautiously when I want to explore a site new to me and right away I'm being asked a bunch of identifying questions.

Having said that, I fully understand why Leon needs to do this. And I wouldn't do deals with people without using my real name.

So... the registration issue is not something I'd hold against him, given his several problem-free transactions and the fact he later provided his real name.

The tape/crack is also a non-issue to me. Mistakes happen and no fraud or hint of it occurred. I'd let him stay.

I do not think this person should be banned.