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Who are your Inner Circle Hall of Famers?
I think the general hobby consensus is that cards of the inner circle hall of famers are most likely to appreciate in value. These are the guys who are always included in the "best ever" lists, and are generally famous enough to be known to non-baseball fans. There's always a great debate over who is an inner circle guy, and who is a "regular" hall of famer. Johnson, Ruth, Mays, Aaron, Robinson, and Cobb are obvious inner circle players. I think Gehrig, Mantle, Clemente, and Cy Young are a step behind, but are probably included on most lists.
The next tier is the one that's interesting to me. Is Wagner an inner circle guy, or is he Tris Speaker with a famous baseball card (and is that significant enough to keep him among the inner circle)? Does Mathewson miss the cut because he wasn't as good as Walter Johnson? Does Satchel Paige's Negro League fame overcome the obstacles placed in front of him? Joe DiMaggio had a great career, but was it long enough (I will accept arguments that Marilyn Monroe tips the scales in his favor)? Same question for Koufax (albeit minus Marilyn Monroe)? Are Ted Williams and Warren Spahn's obvious talents enough to overcome the years lost to military service? Does Barry Bonds make the list? Who are the "fringe" guys you would include on your inner circle list? How many players are on your list? |
I feel like you have it right. I wouldn’t have Gehrig anywhere but in the super core of hall of famers though. I think Wagner makes to cut too but a fair question. Musial is at least on the fringe. In terms of more modern players, Rickey Henderson makes my fringe list. I of course put Spahn there too but I am beyond biased there.
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Let me just add 3 more: Foxx, Ott and Greenberg for the fringe. I put Plank there too but I think that’s a famous card effect.
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"inner circle" value appreciation
I realize we are dealing with opinion here. It's been my experience that
Mickey Mantle and Roberto Clemente belong, without question, at the cream of the crop point. They are "1a" not 1b". Their values go only 1 direction- up. Here's an intriguing one as we sit in 2022- Nolan Ryan?? Trent King PS- in terms of value, Wagner is 1a as well. |
Ruth, Cobb, Wajo, Wagner, Mantle, Mays, Aaron, Robinson seems to be most peoples. Ruth, Cobb, Wagner to me.
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Hof
Sean- right. I was talking about increasing card values, which you mentioned
in the original post. The reason I think Ryan is interesting is that, through card values alone, he's been a recent steady climber. The others have been decades long climbers. Just talking about card values. Trent King |
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Hof
Sean- yes indeed. Nolan's not my favorite, but he was the man. "The Express".
I'll never forget him showing Robin Ventura why it's not smart to charge the mound:) Trent King |
I presume betting with the current hobby consensus is a pretty bad strategy for ROI. If you could predict which players will be considered much better a generation from now than they currently are, that's the real trick. But if you're asking me who the best players ever were? Babe Ruth, Walter Johnson, Cy Young, Barry Bonds, Willie Mays, and Roger Clemens.
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Opinions only when it comes to these questions.
For me, Ruth, Gehrig, DiMaggio, Williams, Koufax are the innner circle all-time greatest, whose cards I value over all the others. IMO, after about 1970, no one can carry these guys' jock straps. Baseball went straight to Hell from that point on. In my opinion. |
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Bonds, Ruth and Williams are the three best hitters in history (yes, I know Bonds isn't in the HOF, just saying) so Teddy Ballgame is an automatic for me. I'd say the no-brainers are
Position Players: Ruth Gehrig Foxx Williams Musial Aaron Mays Henderson Hornsby Collins Lajoie Wagner Schmidt Bench Berra Robinson: Jackie and Frank Morgan Cobb Mantle Ott Speaker Brett Pitchers: Johnson: Walter and Randy Spahn Grove Mathewson Young Alexander Seaver Carlton Maddux Gibson Rivera I've probably forgotten a few. |
Robinson...
The one with a WAR over 100, with almost 3000 hits, and almost 600 home runs? I think you guys are talking about the one with a WAR just over 60, with just over 1500 hits and just under 150 home runs.... Jackie was a gentleman (not that Frank wasn't), well educated, and the right man for Rickey's integration movement. Jackie went through hell. But that's not to say that Frank Robinson didn't. Frank about doubled the baseball results that Jackie did. They're both HOFers, but if one of them is gonna be in the inner circle I'd lean toward that being Frank. Wagner, W Johnson, Cobb, Ruth, Gehrig, Hornsby, Mathewson, C Young, E Collins. Williams, Mays, Musial, Ott, Foxx, Spahn, Speaker, Lajoie, and Old Pete Alexander. Tempting to add McGraw, he was everything. Much of it was long ago and not remembered. Someone who gets no love in all of these comparisons is Eddie Collins. A third of his At Bats resulted in hits. Add for consideration 1499 walks. He was a hitting, walking, base stealing, run scoring, fielding machine. All time leader in sacrafice hits. He was a White Sox good guy when the Black Sox were throwing the World Series; more people would remember him if he'd been among the Black Sox. |
Wagner is absolutely inner circle. He was the greatest player of his age and one of the inaugural 5 inducted into the HOF. He is much much more than a good player with a baseball card. And, I think Joe Jackson is deep “inner circle” re cards, even though he is not an HOFer
With respect to Pre-War (WWII), I think these are your top tier, and almost every iconic/most expensive card contains one of these people Ruth Cobb Jackson Wagner Mathewson Johnson Gehrig Young DiMaggio (goes into vintage) Williams (goes into vintage) |
I would agree with McGraw, Eddie Collins too. Collins continues to get respect far below his statistical performance.
Robinson, Clemente and Ryan are hobby inner circle, but not performance inner circle. Clemente has almost the same statistical value as his contemporary Al Kaline. Obvious HOFer but nobody wants to put him in the inner circle. Jackie ends up being overrated and underrated at the same time somehow. He’s not the best 2B of all time, but he’s probably like 7-12 off resume, an obvious statistical hall of famer but his actual performance is rarely discussed and the focus almost solely put on being a historical first instead. |
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I would change just one player from each... * Replace Henderson with DiMaggio, Greenberg or Griffey Jr. * Replace Rivera with Walsh, Plank or Hubbell Just my meager .02 |
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Maranville, not the small village in France, the shortstop.;)
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Luca Doncic
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DiMaggio, Griffey and Plank are top-tier. Pujols is not eligible yet. I forgot about King Carl and I collect him. D'oh! Sorry about that, your majesty. https://photos.imageevent.com/exhibi...%20Hubbell.jpg ETA: heh, that's exactly what I did, Mark. |
Ah I was thinking all time greats so was premature on a couple of the additions. Nice Hubbell, that's a work of art.
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If your angle is the hobby, there are some other names that warrant mentioning.
I have an interesting vantage point because I collect game-used lineup cards of just about every player. I have bought collections from umpires and managers, and often look to sell some of them to recoup a portion of the cost. Admittedly the vast majority are from 1980's on so it is skewed towards more recent times, but there are two names who come up all the time: Don Mattingly and Nolan Ryan. For every mention of Griffey, Bonds, McGwire, etc there are 10 requests for Mattingly and Ryan. Next behind those two are probably Mariano Rivera, Jose Canseco and Ivan Rodriguez. Frank Thomas as well. It's not remotely the list of the best players, but they seem to be the most popular and then ones that people are the most interested in. |
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I like Satchell Paige. Nolan Ryan. Aaron & Mays. The first 5 into HOF. Cy Young. Ted Williams. Mantle. Maybe Dimaggio. I feel Lefty Grove & Foxx are somewhat under appreciated in the card collecting world. Oh, yeah, for sure put in Gehrig.
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Within the Hall of Fame, these guys reside in my “pantheon of the immortals”. I might forget a player or two-getting old and senile is the suck-but this should be pretty close:
Babe Ruth Walter Johnson Ty Cobb Honus Wagner Christy Mathewson Rogers Hornsby Lou Gehrig Lefty Grove Stan Musial Jackie Robinson Joe DiMaggio Yogi Berra Ted Williams Mickey Mantle Hank Aaron Roberto Clemente Willie Mays Bob Gibson Tom Seaver Johnny Bench Joe Morgan Mike Schmidt Pedro Martinez Greg Maddux Randy Johnson Just as an aside, anybody compiling a list without #42 needs to go back to the beginning again, and re-think who they’re putting on it, and who is being excluded. Respectfully, Jackie Robinson is an all-time great. Beyond the unquantifiable levels of grace and courage he exhibited in being confronted by the most repugnant form of racism imaginable, turning the other cheek and maintaining his promise of silence to Branch Rickey, enduring taunts, slurs, and physical abuse from opposing players (I’m looking at you, Enos Slaughter), Robinson was a transformative talent. So much is made about how Babe Ruth transformed the game-and he did. Ruth was smart enough, and physically gifted, to recognize and take advantage of the changes made to the game, when the ball started getting changed out, when the spitball was outlawed, etc. Ruth would have been an all-time great in any era. But so would Jackie. Jackie’s play, representative of what was going on in the Negro Leagues for so long, completely changed the Major League games. He was a runaway train that couldn’t be stopped. He was a monster offensive player, and a plus defender. The man reached the Majors at age 28, retired after his age 37 season, playing a comparatively short time in the Majors (1,416 games and 5,949 plate appearances), and he still put up 63.9 bWAR. A single season of 7-8 WAR is considered MVP caliber. Robinson was a top 2-3 player in baseball. 1951, 9.7 WAR 1949, 9.3 WAR 1952, 8.4 WAR 1950, 7.3 WAR 1953, 6.9 WAR Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk |
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I'm not taking anything away from Robinson or his historical significance, just saying Rickey was the one who had the ability and the will to break the color line, and he had several viable options. He chose Robinson and it was an excellent choice. But there were other black players, some who were better talent wise. On talent, Ruth was the most important baseball player in history. |
Just for fun, I asked five guys at my gym (one was actually a 2nd round MLB draft pick in 2006) if they knew who Walter Johnson is, and if so, what is his occupation. All of the guys are in their late 20's/early 30's and none of them knew him. Their occupation guesses included Politician/Senator and NASCAR driver.
I'm not sure that I 100% understand the question, but your average non Pre-War card collectors probably consider the following as "tier 1" HOFers: Ruth, Cobb, Cy Young, Gehrig, DiMaggio, Jackie Robinson, Mantle, Clemente, Mays, Aaron, Nolan Ryan, Henderson, Ripken, Griffey, and Jeter. Basically guys who are known in pop culture. Rose, McGwire, Bonds, and Clemons would count too if they were in. My best guess for "tier 2" from average fans today could include Yogi Berra, Seaver, Reggie Jackson, Schmidt, Randy Johnson, Pedro Martinez, and Mariano Rivera. They might know Wagner for the "million dollar" card but I doubt they know how good he actually was. |
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I believe that the inner circle is Cobb, Ruth, Wagner, Mays and Aaron. I don’t think a pitcher can be in the inner circle. Next group would include DiMaggio, Williams, Hornsby, Mantle, Jackson, Lajoie, Delahanty, Gehrig, Foxx and Trout.
I think the pitchers have to be grouped separately. Their inner circle would be Young, Johnson and Mathewson. |
Kid Nichols seems to be unjustly forgotten. Nine straight years of 27 wins or more. Yes, this was 19th Century, but he was still the best pitcher of his time, aside from Cy Young.
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The list would be different if steroid users were included. Then Bonds would have made the inner circle and Aroid the next level.
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My inner sanctum players are the guys I rooted for as a kid. TP Terry Puhl, Jose Cruz, Bob Watson, JR Richard, Cesar Cedeno, etc. Jeff Bagwell and Craig Biggio are not in my inner circle, because they are my age, and I view them as peers, and not heroes.
Here's the top 10 in WAR...(the inner circle) Ruth Johnson Young Bonds Mays Cobb Aaron Clemens Speaker Wagner The problem with Bonds, Aaron and Clemens is that they don't have any cool cards to collect. The story at the gym where no-one knew who Walter Johnson was, was the point I was trying to make about Doncic in the other thread, not that he's not good, he's not famous. George Washington is famous, and even he has a Q-rating of about 44. |
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https://photos.imageevent.com/exhibi...es%20Aaron.jpg https://photos.imageevent.com/exhibi...an%20Aaron.JPG https://photos.imageevent.com/exhibi...ps%20Aaron.jpg https://photos.imageevent.com/exhibi...stolen%201.jpg https://photos.imageevent.com/exhibi...0Aaron%201.JPG https://photos.imageevent.com/exhibi...0Aaron%201.JPG https://photos.imageevent.com/exhibi...0Super%201.jpg https://photos.imageevent.com/exhibi...3%20HRLDRS.jpg https://photos.imageevent.com/exhibi...ron%20num1.jpg https://photos.imageevent.com/exhibi...ry%20Aaron.jpg https://photos.imageevent.com/exhibi...n%20Royale.jpg https://photos.imageevent.com/exhibi...es%20Bonds.jpg https://photos.imageevent.com/exhibi...20Pettitte.jpg |
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Maybe another guy could have painted the Sistine Chapel. They didn't, Michelangelo did - because the Pope selected him. Perhaps, like Rickey, the Pope knew what he was doing. |
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There was a time when Aaron's 1976 RB was the best card in my collection. It's almost like they made the list, and created a stat called "WAR" to back it up with a math formula. 15 Alexander 16 Arod 17 Nichols 18 Gehrig 19 Rickey Henderson 20 Ott 21 Mantle |
58 First Ballot Hall-of-Famers
David Ortiz became the 58th player elected to the Hall of Fame on the first ballot. Here's a link to the list: https://www.mlb.com/news/first-ballo...ers-c300943350
Why not decide how many you want in your Pantheon and start striking names off this list? It would be the "eyeball test HOF," but maybe also the "vote-with-your-heart HOF" too. Interesting that, according to the list, there were no first ballot HOFer's between 1936 and 1962. Can this be true? Not DiMaggio? Answer in supplementary article from MLB on ten greats not selected on first ballot: https://www.mlb.com/news/hall-of-fam...t-first-ballot |
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How "tight" is the "inner-circle" supposed to be? I look at any player that has reached the basic milestones (500HRs, 3000H, 300W) are inner-circle. I'm sure other milestone criteria could be used. I suppose PED users are considered if you don't mind adding them.
Then there are those that haven't hit any of the milestones like Gehrig or DiMaggio that some might consider for their inner-circle. Bottom line, it would be fun to put together a survey of this board to see who their top 50 or even 100 players are. Provide a rank number and the end result would be the highest ranking players. My guess is that a lot of the players selected by the old veterans committee wouldn't make the cut. |
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If Rickey chooses to make Campanella the guy to break the color line, Robinson would be a borderline HOFer. Roy won 3 MVP awards and was the better player, and that's just one example. |
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Many of the names have already been mentioned. I'm going to provide three Negro League Players that everyone should consider.
1. Satchel Paige 2. Josh Gibson 3. Oscar Charleston Paige is very self explanatory IMO. His two seasons with the Indians, in 48 and 49 while he was ages 41 and 42 respectively gave a brief glimpse into his dominance as a pitcher. I have little doubt that if there was no Color Barrier, he'd be considered right there with Johnson, Grove, Mathewson and Young as one of the greatest pitchers to ever take the mound. Concerning Gibson and Charleston. Gibson's dominance as a hitter was borderline unparalleled by anyone in his day, and the same goes for Charleston's prowess in both hitting and pitching. |
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How BIG is the Circle?
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If you make the circle big enough, a lot of players fit.
I think 5 or 6 batters is the right amount for my version of the circle. Here they are, but I reserve the right to expand the circle. Pitchers will be included once I scan more cards. It's pretty hard to keep it to so few... |
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What if Rickey choose someone who got fed up with being called the N word and took a bat to someone's head? How many years would that have set integration back. Jackie did it. Quite well. Others woulda, coulda, shoulda. But we have to give kudos to the man who actually DID IT |
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In 1952, Campanella's second MVP year he had a WAR of 6.8. Jackie beat him out again with 6.9. And in 1953, Campanella's third MVP year, his war was only 5.2, tied for 12th in the National League with Ted Kluszewski and teammate Don Newcombe. The fact is that for some reason if you were a catcher, it was easier to win MVP in the 1950s. Just look at Yogi Berra's 3 MVPs including in '51 (WAR of 5.3), '54 (WAR of 5.3) and '55 (WAR of 4.5 which was 11th in the league). https://www.espn.com/blog/sweetspot/...st-mvp-winners Its hard to think of Jackie Robinson has having been underrated as a player, but he may very well have been. https://www.mlb.com/news/most-underrated-hall-of-famers |
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On the subject of Gehrig because I've seen his name brought about a few times, to me he's inner circle, I don't know how anyone could disagree. The consensus greatest first basemen ever, if he didn't contract ALS he would've been a lock for 3000 Hits and 500 Home runs. Gehrig is believed to have started showing symptoms of it in 1938, which diminished his performance. Obviously by 1939 he was out of the league due to his illness. I'd wager that a healthy Gehrig would've probably continued to churn out 30 home run seasons well into his late 30's. He was in good shape and took care of his body. I think we can speculate that Gehrig would've hit in the ballpark of 600 homers for his career and had at least 3100 hits had he not tragically passed away. |
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http://www.thehypertexts.com/Basebal...e%20season.htm And couldn't agree with you more about Gehrig. Definitely inner circle. A top 10 player of all-time probably. Guy averaged ~8.5 WAR per 162 games and had the most RBIs in a season for an American Leaguer after all. |
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First, Campanella won the MVP in 1951, 1953 and 1955, not 1951, 1952 and 1953. Second, in 1953, his second MVP season, he had a higher WAR than Jackie - 6.8 vs 5.9. It would be hard to argue that a catcher playing good defense while hitting .312 with 41 homers and a 154 OPS+ is NOT the right choice for MVP. Third, their 1951 seasons show just how goofy WAR is when comparing players. Campanella hit .325 with 33 homers and a 159 OPS+ while playing good defense (dWAR of 1.1) but gets a WAR of 6.9. Jackie hits .338 with 19 homers and a 154 OPS+ while playing great defense (2.4 dWAR) and gets a 9.7 WAR. Basically, Jackie benefited from the rest of his contemporaries at 2B being relatively terrible so he gets a bump from WAR. I think Campy had the better season, your mileage might vary. Finally, during his actual third MVP season of 1955, Campy had a WAR of 5.2 while Jackie had a 2.6 while missing 49 games. |
I think most would agree Jackie is obviously important beyond his skills. And then the debate about whether he is the most skilled player that could have broken the barrier can be debated.
Turning back to the inner circle as far as collecting goes is it universal agreement that Ruth is number 1? If so, who is 2? Cobb? If Ruth is 10 on a scale of 1-10 where do the others fall? |
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Are you using Baseball Reference for your WAR, or FanGraphs? Or something else? Let's not forget the year Jackie won MVP where (according to Baseball Reference) Jackie's WAR was 9.3 compared to Campanella's 4.5 https://www.baseball-reference.com/a..._NL_MVP_voting I am not trying to argue who is the best player, I am just saying that going based off of Campanella's 3 MVPs is not a great indicator that he was a better player than Jackie. |
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https://www.baseball-almanac.com/leg...lisab100.shtml While other websites have Mays: https://baseballegg.com/all-time-pla...eball-history/ |
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I think the voters made the right decision in each of the three years, at least insofar as selecting Campy over Robinson. |
ESPN top 100
ESPN posted their top 100 Baseball Players this week.
https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/...s-all-nos-25-1 Their top 10: 1) Ruth 2) Mays 3) Aaron 4) Cobb 5) Ted Williams 6) Gehrig 7) Mantle 8) Bonds 9) Walter Johnson 10) Stan Musial Rounding out the top 25: 11) Pedro 12) Wagner 13) K Griffey Jr. 14) Maddux 15) Trout 16) DiMaggio 17) Clemens 18) Schmidt 19) F Robinson 20) Hornsby 21) Cy Young 22) Seaver 23) Rickey Henderson 24) Randy Johnson 25) Christy Mathewson I think its a pretty defensible list, with a decent balance of old-timers and recent guys. Maybe pitchers could have done better on the list (Carlton was 58, Grover Cleveland Alexander 57, Kershaw 52, Feller 50, Spahn was 47, Satchel Paige 41, WaJo could be top 5). But I think they did a decent job of balancing peak vs. overall WAR with maybe a higher emphasis on peak. They had some peak guys pretty high with Koufax at 32, and Bob Gibson at 33. I think Cap Anson was the only 19th Century player. No Kid Nichols, Dan Brouthers, etc. I do think Jeter was probably ranked too high at 28. I don't think he is better than every catcher to ever play the game (Bench was the highest ranked catcher at 29) or a lot of players ranked lower than him. I would have liked to see Sam Crawford, Al Simmons, Goose Goslin, and Carl Hubbell make the list, but they didn't. Ed Walsh and Dizzy didn't make it either. |
Of course, a list like this will generate a lot of debate and disagreement, so I will just mention one thing that stands out to me. I love Pedro, but saying he is the 11th best player and second best pitcher (behind only Walter Johnson) of all-time seems like a very strong take. It looks like he got a lot of credit for peak performance versus longevity and for his ERA+ (essentially, ERA as compared to league ERA).
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Would be interesting if they did the 100 best seasons by a player. |
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Based on career WAR, Hall of Fame status, peak performance and overall contributions to the game, we selected an initial pool of more than 200 players from both the major leagues and Negro Leagues, dating back to the late 19th century, plus a few of today's biggest stars. From there, we asked dozens of ESPN editors and writers to contribute to a balloting system that pits players from the list against each other in head-to-head voting. The question we posed: "Based on a combination of career value and peak performance, which player would you rank higher?" Would you choose Barry Bonds or Ted Williams? Mike Trout or Joe DiMaggio? Walter Johnson or Roger Clemens? Our participants voted more than 20,000 times. Based on those votes, the players were ranked by the percentage of the time they were chosen over any competing player. Our No. 1 overall player, for example, was chosen 99% of the time. Our No. 100 player? He was taken 31% of the time. Despite that seemingly large range, the competition was fierce -- a single percentage point could raise or lower a player's ranking significantly." |
Here is a link to the methodology https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/...lb-players-all
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I wonder why there has been no mention of a worthy candidate to the inner sanctum: George Sisler. He played in the same era of Ruth, their RC's coming from the same set, batted over .400 twice and played a stellar first base. I know he played for the lowly Browns but records are records.
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https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/...snubs-our-list "George Sisler, the initial first baseman elected to the Hall of Fame by the Baseball Writers' Association of America in 1939, might well be the best all-around player in the history of that position. In 1920, Sisler collected 257 hits in a 154-game season, a modern-era record that stood until Ichiro Suzuki had 262 in 2004. In 1922, Sisler hit safely in 41 consecutive games, a modern-era record that stood until Joe DiMaggio's 56-game streak in 1941. He led his league in stolen bases four times, and his defense is celebrated on his Hall of Fame plaque as follows: "Credited with being one of best two fielding first basemen in history of game." -- Paul Hembekides" |
I would agree with this, but would put Jackson (non-HOF) in the inner outer circle collectibility wise.
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He had more great seasons than Sandy Koufax and his peak reached higher than anybody's ever did. Is #11 too high? Maybe. I think Roger Clemens was better thanks to his longevity. But I certainly understand how they put him there. |
Sooooo.... how many players are considered "inner circle"? All I know is Babe Ruth is #1 and there is no convincing me otherwise.
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And I agree about Babe Ruth. He showed everyone the possibilities. Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk |
No doubt Ruth is number 1 and it applies to everything Ruth. I guess that’s the key. The inner circle probably includes Honus and Cy Young and a few others because all of their issues are pretty desirable and now expensive. A guy like Bob Gibson, on the other hand, may not be in the inner circle but his rookie will always be hot (awesome pink too!). So the inner circle might be rarer pre-war big names but post-war biggish names and especially their rookies are also close.
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Shhhh! More talk like that and people will want to collect him! :D
Sisler could also take the mound in a pinch. Quote:
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340 HOF members
10, 22, 40 (Umpire, manager, executive) Total = 268 players 10% is about 27 players. Ok, that sounds easy to pick 27 top players but I'm going to guess by the time you get to #27 there's going to be a lot of second guessing yourself. |
These are the best I have seen play in person. Pujols isn't in the hall yet and Roger is in my humble opinion the best to ever take the mound.
Wade Boggs Ken Griffey Jr Derek Jeter Alex Rodriguez Albert Pujols Roger Clemens Mariano Rivera Nolan Ryan Randy Johnson Pedro Martinez |
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