PWCC Boggles the Mind. New Auctions
 

In case you haven't heard, the PWCC website has declared that their regular Monthly auction has gone away to make room for their new Weekly Auction. Now you can bid on cards "every day of the week".

The Weekly Auction now.. get this.. includes a 20% Buyer's Premium on every sale. I don't get it, but them not getting it, makes sense.

i like the idea of the 24/7 marketplace...in this day and age...but the 20% bp...I'll pass!

I do not like either the 24/7 card auctions or the 20 % BP

But for those that it works for so be it

So I will respectfully pass

If they only auction 95% of the original card, will they reduce the BP by 5% as well?

24/7 marketplace. Wow. Unprecedented. Sort of like eBay.

People just don't get that the BP is irrelevant except to the consignor. Factor it into what you bid. This has been discussed ad nauseum.

If this was any other auction company, would we care or make a big deal of it? and how is this any different than HA's weekly auction that they've been holding for years? 20% is pretty much the hobby norm for BP so no different than what most other companies are doing.

I guess just odd in that all of us know them as an eBay seller where we weren’t charged a premium . When they said they were leaving eBay to create their own marketplace I’d didnt figure they’d be charging a buyers premium. But as Peter says shouldn’t affect a buyer if you plan accordingly.

They have to earn a fee. It's the same difference if they take it off the hammer price and call it a seller's fee, or add it to the hammer price and call it a buyer's premium, because any rational buyer will bid factoring in the premium and will end up paying the same either way.

Simply stated, rather than bidding 120 for an item on ebay, you would bid 100 knowing 20 is going to be added.

Why buyer's premiums remain an issue for people really is beyond me. They're an issue for consignors to be sure, because they affect their take by depressing hammer price, not for buyers.

Not trying to go into a deep discussion about this issue, but if I’m going to get nailed with a BP then I should receive top quality service. Websites routinely crashing, AH’s bidding on their own cards, listing cards that are knowingly altered, etc. I have to pay 20% extra for that? It seems like everything is very difficult bidding with a true auction house, it really shouldn’t be. Hard pass on bidding with PWCC.

I think you should expect that service from anyone you are bidding good money with, whether or not they call part of your payment a premium or not.

I have never consigned with them but I imagine they were charging seller fees than 10% when they were on ebay and I assume they paid the ebay and paypal fees out of that 10%. Now they get their own website and charge 20% fee. 100% increase. Must be a nice business to own. Good luck to them.

I would imagine that between doubling their effective seller's fee and no longer being visible as they were on ebay, they would not keep the same level of consignments?

Agree. They seem to have their stuff together. Probably figured volume will decrease slightly but price per sale goes up.

I agree. It's hard to run a profitable business, pay fair or above avg wages to retain staff, please both suppliers and clients while maintaining a high level of customer care. If the consignors are pleased then cards are selling because buyers are paying. They disclose the fee up front and providing supply to meet demand. A 20%gp is not substantial.

+1. 20% BP is standard; other AHs run weekly auctions; if you don’t like, don’t buy. Frankly, this is a big nothing-burger and hardly “mind-boggling” in my opinion.

It does make a difference Peter. For those on a relative card budget, 20% could mean paying significantly more for a card. You gave an example of winning a card for $100 but now having to pay $120 with BP. What if you win a card for $400, now it becomes a $480 card, etc. That will limit the smaller collector who may want to bid on multiple cards. I for one, don't like forking over an extra 20%.

Maybe this keeps PWCC in business. They are certainly scrambling around lately, quite clumsily. They had a brief niche, like Ebay. Now they are like all the other auction houses & crappy servicen thrown in too.

I am sorry you really don't understand how this works. Read what I posted again. The same card you "win" for 400 (plus BP) would have cost you 480 on ebay because people would have bid 20 percent MORE if there was no BP. It's a 480 card in both worlds. You aren't saving anything on ebay or paying more to PWCC.

I think the thought is of you value you a card at $100 you now bid it at $82ish. From the buyer side really no difference. Maybe I’m missing something.

Exactly.

All premiums are paid by the consignor. Unfortunately, 20% seems to be the norm.

Right, and we can debate if that's too high, but the angst by BIDDERS about buyers' premiums is completely misplaced and reflects a basic lack of understanding unfortunately.

Here I thought the buyers premium was just a way for the AH to pay the consignor less than the real sale price.:confused::D

I think most...if not all buyers keep the BP in mind when bidding and factor it in as a cost. If cards had absolute values, and they don't, then the high bid would be placed at a point where the added BP would take it to that magic absolute value. In your example if the card had an absolute value of $400 and there was a 20% BP then your high bid could only be $333.

Ebay auction listings for pre-war and vintage have dried up since PWCC was shown the door. BIN's are even more ludicrous than before. Even with Moser and Co. and known shilling, it was nice not to know there was an extra 20% added on if you won a PWCC auction.

I mostly like the changes that PWCC has made except the 20% BP
Not a fan of the BP since they started out not charging it in their monthly auctions
They initially had a scale that they paid the sellers a percentage of the final price
But like Peter said you just need to factor the BP into the price you are willing to pay now

This is how I view it.

It’s not a flat 20% commission, it adjusts depending on the sale price. It seems fair to me

The buyer premium of 20% is irrelevant, you still bid on what you think the card is worth keeping in mind the extra 20%. This is standard for pretty much all auctions

Well, I hear they slash their, er, commissions...

The issue that many have with the BP, I would guess, is that auction house hopes that you don't factor it in when you're in the midst of bidding, since it is invisible during the auction. I give Lee a lot of credit for showing the total bid with BP at Sterling. Many auction houses don't do this, though they very easily could. Ask yourself why they don't. It's in the hope that bidders feel like they're paying less in the moment (or perhaps are new and don't know about the 20% BP yet), thus hopefully resulting in higher closing prices. It could be argued that it costs even the winners who are fully aware of the BP, if they are bidding against someone who is either not aware of it or is aware but still influenced in the moment by the 'lower' price (without BP) being displayed.

I agree, but in the frenzy of an auction closing with extended bidding and passions running high, it is hard, in the heat of the moment, to be rational and factor in that 20% into your total acquisition budget.
Like the famous Mark Twain quote, "An erection has no conscience." Cards do provoke animal instincts.

Agree 100%

You said it all, Brian. Auction houses differ in the services they offer. Regular communication after the sale, premium packaging, returns made easy, hi-rez scans sent in email, etc. PWCC charges the premium but gives an EBAY experience. an EBAY experience, i.e. getting one tracking email, hit or miss packaging quality and cheap post office shipping = no premium. Charge me a BP, make it a premium experience. I bought an altered card from them so I'm still not happy with Brent and his company, thus I guess I'm NOT a PWCC fan.

Would you be happier if there was no premium but you had to bid 20 percent higher to win?:eek:

I have found myself getting wrapped up into this frenzy at the end of an auction.

Like everyone else, I am just elated that PWCC is not in prison and can still offer me cards, altered or not and shilled or not, so that I can get that much closer to completing my collection. I would pay as much as a 30% BP to boot! I mean I as hard as I look, it seems PWCC is the only seller offering cards for sale in an auction format. Without him, we might have to collect stamps or action figures.

Merry Xmas and Happy New Year to everyone working us...I mean working hard for us...at PWCC.

I think many of us agree with you in theory Peter. But as a few have stated, in practice, likely many of us have failed to fully do the "mental math" and thus have overpaid. I believe, as expressed by others, that's not uncommon in the heat of the moment. And while I agree that would be the buyer's fault, I'm confident the AH is counting on such lapses to inflate their margin. Why else would most AH's not display the true cost of purchase?

I have been caught up in the heat of the moment many times and doubtless bid too high but that doesn't mean I somehow FORGOT there was a BP. Badly wanting a card doesn't make one brain dead.

I think auction houses should start rebating a portion of the buyers commission to buyers. Again, this theoretically should have no impact on buyers net bids, but somehow it would make me feel better.

My thoughts as well. If Covid, Inflation and PWCC all fade away in 2022, it will be the best year ever! :p

That said... I can't believe the level of "debate" over the Buyers Premium. As much as I dislike this particular seller, you cannot begrudge them standard operating costs that virtually all of their competitors also employ. Just factor in the costs and bid accordingly.

I have no problem with auction houses who produce a nice catalog charging a 20% buyers premium. Catalog production and mailing costs are high. I do have a problem with on line auctions charging that. Again, does it affect my bids-no. I just somehow find it offensive.

+1

Again, it only affects consignors, and if they thought it was too high they would vote with their feet.

I joined this forum 9 years ago, and the "old timers" back then were sick of this topic. Nine years later, and we still have to explain it. Ad Nauseam doesn't even do justice to how often this topic has been raised and explained.

To me, the biggest change will be when payments are due.

Up to now, winners could wait until the entire auction ended at the end of the month, and then have five days to make payment. This worked great, as I, and many others, get paid once a month. You could win an auction on, say, the 12th of the month, and then wait until the end of the month when you get paid, to send in your payment; allowing you to get a card you may not have been able to get had payment been due sooner.

Now, with the change to weekly auctions ending every Sunday, payments will be due more often, eliminating this payment "float". It looks like you'll still have ten days after the auction, to make your payment, but in many cases, you won't be able to wait until the 1st day of the following month.

Steve

I've glanced at PWCC 3 or 4 times since this summer. Not registered with them and just wanted to see what vintage they were rolling out. Massively unimpressed. I'll stick to LOTG, Heritage, Brockelman, Collectors Connection, Huggins & Scott, Hunts, Hakes for memorabilia, and a few others.

There is something of course counter intuitive in agreeing to pay a certain price for an item and then receiving a bill for 30% more (BP, tax, shipping). Do I forget about it? No. Do I always have it top of mind? No. Many auctions I don't go in with a fixed idea that I'm spending $3885 and not a penny more. And when you see heating bidding it's easy to think "hey maybe this is worth mote than I thought. Other people want it too. . . " All I ask is that the AH post at time of bidding what the actual price with BP will be. Don't think that's unreasonable to ask.

How hard is it to figure out? One simple calculation. Geez. And when one has bid in countless auctions how can one not have the BP and extras in mind? It's not like any auction doesn't charge a BP. I dunno Steve, shaking my head at this one.

One wonders how many people did the same. A fair number, I suspect. How it impacts them in the long run, we'll see. Brent may have bigger problems still, although it's sure been a long time in the works.

I looked and surfed away when I saw a Luca Doncic for $780,000, which is not really on my want-list. Maybe if he was a little bit better player.

On the vig. You factor in 30% for tax and commission. With all the debate, I realize that I'm often the underbidder because the winner doesn't know how much they are paying for the card. Happy Holidays, gang.

+1

I've been there quite often.

This may be the reason for buyers' angst over the BP. They feel as though their high bid didn't win because somebody paid the "didn't read" tax.

Far more likely, you lost to someone who wanted it more than you did.

So, I'll charge PWCC 20% of my bid. :)

Fair enough. I'm not one of the angry buyers to whom I referred in my post, though. I just tried to figure out the psychology.

The BP (and sales tax, shipping, insurance, etc) is something I take into account when bidding at an auction. My estimates are fairly accurate and I enter everything in Excel before extended bidding starts. That way, I can adjust on the fly.

Am I willing to pay X? I'll enter that number in the appropriate cell and it will recalculate my max bid.

The next bid increment is Z? I'll enter that number in the appropriate cell and it will recalculate all-in cost.

I think there are bidders who don't think things through. They'll have an "oh, $#!t" moment later, followed by a dash of buyer's remorse.

Auction House terms
 

While a lot of Auction Houses do charge the 20% BP, there is some variability. Some charge as little as 12.5%. Again, all bids should in theory be equal regardless of BP as bidders take into account differing BP amounts and adjust accordingly, but imperfect information leads to market failures to use lame economics jargon.

There is also variability in sales tax.

As member SAllen2556 mentioned in the "Ethical Concerns Regarding Heritage?" thread, there are no governing body/standards for the sports card industry. To combine threads, my Festivus -- Airing of Grievances would be for some standardization. Would be great if ALL auction houses showed the sum total of your bid including the Buyer's Premium. I am only aware of two that show the total including BP--Heritage and Sterling.

I haven't noticed that Goldin provision because I haven't bid there seriously, but that doesn't seem right, that out of state residents pay NEW JERSEY sales tax. Internet sellers typically, where required, collect sales tax on behalf of the buyer's state. No?

I put the spreadsheet together pretty hastily, so yeah, you are right. From Goldin's website: https://goldin.co/conditions

"Unless exempted by law, the purchaser will be required to pay New Jersey sales tax on the total purchase price, including the buyer’s premium, on any property picked up or delivered in New Jersey, regardless of the state or country in which the purchaser resides or does business. In addition, unless the purchaser provides GA with a valid resale certificate prior to shipment, the purchaser will be required to pay applicable sales tax where GA determines, in its sole discretion, that it is legally obligated to collect such tax.

If the lot is delivered to a state where GA is not required to collect sales tax, it is the responsibility of the buyer to self-assess any sales tax, use tax or valued-added tax (VAT) and remit it to the taxing authorities in that state or country."

Sigh. Who said it was hard. It's not hard. All I said was there have been times where I've been caught up in the emotion of an auction and bid more that I probably should have in light of the 30% markup that is tacked on.

Some of you guys shouldn't be wasting time on the board but should be re-writing most of the major texts on economics. The economics classes I took all talked about how people make imperfect decisions in the marketplace based not only on information but based on emotion and a plethora of other non-quantitative factors.

I guess I've never been so emotional about an auction that I haven't understood what number I was really bidding. I've certainly bid too much many many times, but with full understanding of what I was doing. I guess I don't really understand the concept of losing sight of that, once you know it how can you unknow it, but I'll take you at your word.

My thoughts exactly, Memory Lane, Heritage Auctions, REA send out some amazing catalogs, many I keep for reference material. 20% for a front and back scan and an often recycled card description, that is a rip-off and they’ll likely lose consignments. I’m seeing Heritage pick up market share lately on vintage. Anyone else noticing that trend?

we charge sales tax in PA and unfortunately will be adding states next year.

So I know the tax code changed a couple of years ago for internet sales, which leads to more sales tax collected.
But I am confused as to why a lot of the larger AHs charge sales tax in more states than some of the smaller ones that only charge in the state they are located and maybe a few others.

Does it have to do with volume of sales to each state or something?

As I understand it doing a certain volume in a state can require a seller to collect tax for that state on sales to its residents. Massachusetts works that way, I know. I forget the threshold now but it ain't that high.

For those that think they are paying more by having a buyer premium. All VCP prices include the buyers premium (final bid price + buyer premium), the Ebay prices are the final bid price. So the record prices you hear about are the final price the buyers pay.

Ebay is not a normal auction service they created there own format that many are use to (by the you are doing your own work and have to deal with customers on ebay and pay them. What is your time worth and the potential headaches?) and have never used an Auction service for any buying or selling.

As an auction service Sterling is providing a service to help make the selling process easier for consignors and the best possible experience for the bidders.

Always willing to listen to any suggestions,

Lee

Yes, in 2018 the SCOTUS upheld South Dakota against Wayfair and determined that a seller no longer had to have a physical presence (inventory, employees, store, etc.) before SD could legally force that seller to collect and remit sales taxes on sales to customers in SD. The SCOTUS agreed with SD's threshold for out-of-state sellers to have to start collecting SD sales tax once they reached $100,000 of gross taxable sales in a single calendar year, or had 200 or more taxable sales transactions to SD customers, also in a single calendar year. Once that happened, other states with sales taxes started changing their sales tax laws to be more in line with what the SCOTUS approved in SD.

So of course, larger AHs and sellers will more easily reach whatever the revised annual sales and/or transaction thresholds are in all those other states (and SD) than will smaller AHs and sellers that don't have as much sales or transaction volume.

So all these AHs and sellers now have to keep track of their gross taxable sales and the number of sales transactions they have each year on a state by state basis, so they can tell when they might finally reach and go over a particular state's sales tax thresholds. And once they've crossed over one of a particular state's thresholds, generally they are then legally required to register with whatever group or department oversees sales taxes in that particular state, and to then start charging, collecting, and remitting sales taxes on all taxable sales to customers in that particular state going forward. And once a seller/AH has to start collecting sales tax in a particular state, they don't generally get to stop being liable for collecting it in subsequent years should their gross taxable sales and transaction volume fall below the thresholds.

The smaller AHs and sellers are always going to be required to collect sales taxes in states they are located in because they have an actual physical presence in those states.

As Lee said, Ebay is an auction platform and not an AH/seller themselves. AHs like Lee's Sterling Sports Auctions generally pay some third party to use their software platform to put their auctions on, and pay these third-party auction platforms out of the seller's and/or buyer's premiums they collect.

When Ebay was originally started, it was for people to come on and directly sell items themselves. I don't believe it was originally contemplated that one day large consignors would be selling things on Ebay on behalf of many others like happens nowadays with a seller like Probstein. Someone coming on Ebay to maybe sell a few items a year, like in a garage sale, wouldn't be paying for a software auction platform like a Simply Auctions platform that some AHs use. And that is most likely why Ebay set up their software to charge users a seller's fee, based on a set percentage of each individual sale. Which was fairly easy to do since Ebay also handled the collection and dispersion of monies to sellers. Auction software/platforms used by AHs, like Simply Auctions, don't collect and ever handle the money from buyers, which is another huge difference from Ebay.

Got it, that makes sense. Thanks!

I agree. The BP should be shown/included when bidding.

Although I have only bid on a couple/few items from an auction house, imo, the process should be as seamless and friendly as possible since the AH's main objective is to attract potential bidders and keep them coming back.

Like any business/store, etc, when things are difficult to find and spread all over the store without any semblance of being organized, easy to find, making the purchasing process as easy as possible, I can't help but believe that that business/store might not be in business for long, or it sure won't get the customers that another store that does the opposite of those things will see.

Just my .2 cents, for what it's worth. :)

The main thing I understand selling is if I sell a $1000 item on eBay I get approximately $875 after fees. Now if that same $1000 item sells with the usual 20/20 AH pricing I get approximately $665. That makes it an expensive service but worth it to many to not have to deal with eBay.

I do basically the same thing in Excel so I can tell what final cost my bid will ultimately translate into including bp and tax. All the AHs include what their bp is in their auction rules so it's easy to find even if they don't show it when you place a bid. What isn't easy to know is how much shipping will cost. A few AHs have set prices for shipping based on the total invoice which makes it easy. However, most don't so it can sometimes be a surprise to see how much shipping is added onto a fairly low-priced card.

I deal w/ many auction house & not one charges me any sellers premium.
& most of my consignments is lots under $1000

Hi Ben, not sure where you are getting your figures from but the 20% buyer fee (if there is any out there) I would think would be for a lot that is intensive high in labor. Personally at Sterling our standard contract is never goes over 15% seller fee and that is on a rare occasion for ungraded or memorabilia that would take alot of time to photo/scan, description and pack and ship. Otherwise 10% seller fee on those items that can be flexible if the dollar amount is higher. Graded cards almost always have no seller fee.

So your example at Sterling almost always nets you $800 for a graded item and at worst $700 say if you have a complete set of cards selling for $1000 that would have a 10% seller fee. Once again what is your time worth and are you willing to deal with any potential headaches from the sales.

I would say if you have to pay a 20% seller fee at AH start shopping.

Happy Holidays

Lee

GOLDIN does not charge sales tax.

I just won several lots from them last week and i just rechecked the invoice. No sales tax. So you are wrong.

In addition I only paid $9 shipping (plus insurance) for 3 decent sized lots. +1 for them.

(I won a lot from them several auctions ago which included one obviously trimmed card. I took photos and sent them in. Within 90 minutes they had given me a very satisfactory credit to my account.)

I would hardly congratulate Goldin for low shipping when you factor all the shipping costs together. Last auction my invoice showed shipping of $9.81, $8.00 handling, and $21.65 insurance for a total of $39.46 to my door. This was for one lot of 9 postcards valued around $3k after BP. The same lot would have been $20 from REA or LOTG.

Maybe they don't sell enough into your home state to require them to collect tax but they obviously DO charge sales tax when required to do so.

Tax

Unless exempted by law, the purchaser will be required to pay New Jersey sales tax on the total purchase price, including the buyer’s premium, on any property picked up or delivered in New Jersey, regardless of the state or country in which the purchaser resides or does business. In addition, unless the purchaser provides GA with a valid resale certificate prior to shipment, the purchaser will be required to pay applicable sales tax where GA determines, in its sole discretion, that it is legally obligated to collect such tax.

If the lot is delivered to a state where GA is not required to collect sales tax, it is the responsibility of the buyer to self-assess any sales tax, use tax or valued-added tax (VAT) and remit it to the taxing authorities in that state or country.

The 20/20 is what has been mentioned on here several times on lower price items. It was just an example and not aimed at anyone. I have very little experience myself.

I just noticed you are fairly close to me. For living out in the middle of nowhere anyway.:)

I will be selling a set worth more than the above price. I will have to PM you when that time comes fairly soon.

Rather have ebay garner the fees. Honestly shocking people still bid with PWCC.

I dont even look at their auctions, and if I miss out on deals, at least I have my integrity.

Y'all might want to look up that term, if you arent too busy scrolling through weekly auctions hoping for a deal