Rick Probstein interviews Bill Mastro
 

This is a pretty good interview. Probstein talks with Mastro on his Instagram channel for about 40 minutes. They discuss the trimmed Wagner card and shill bidding operation at Mastro Auctions among other things.

The interview starts at about 1:45.

https://www.instagram.com/tv/CT2hwihp0Vd/

Cliff notes?

The Wagner card was sheet cut by someone else. He bought all the cards from that sheet from the guy who cut up the sheet. The Wagner was cut ridiculously wide left to right, and bowed out on both sides. Mastro said it looked like a football with a flat top and flat bottom. Mastro trimmed it for himself, not to resell it, and he trimmed it to size. He said it's not undersized at all, and that if you measure it, it would be of above average size for non-trimmed T206s.

He also said the majority of the auctions that were shill bid at Mastro Auctions were actually of Americana or other non-sports card collectibles. He said it was mostly stuff that had very interested few buyers. He said most of the cards had plenty of action and that they didn't "need" to bid on those, but that sometimes they did anyhow because they had access to everyone's bid amounts and they got greedy.

Lots of other great stories though. Worth a listen.

Thanks for sharing!

I didn't think Alan Ray -- the pre-Mastro owner -- was the one who cut the Wagner from the sheet. I had thought the provenance did not go back all the way to the sheet and I also thought Ray would not say where HE got the card.

But there are several members at least who know the story better.

Thanks for sharing!
 

Thanks for sharing!

Interesting to hear him speak. I expect that there will be a tell all book.

Found it interesting that he said he hated Lew Lipset.

Patrick

Very interesting and entertaining. He should write a book. His enthusiasm for cards is obvious.

Didn't Mastro buy the sheet from Rob Lifson, or Rob loaned him the money to buy it himself?

Prison really aged him.

Let that be a lesson to all you youngsters out there.

I think Rob was a lender, not a seller.

He actually is a good speaker and told some fascinating stories.

IT was a bit long but pretty entertaining.

As for the truth of it all

That is for others to decide

Worth the watch

Will Doug Allen be next?

.

So basically he was "THIS" close to being innocent and certainly not a bad guy, and everyone should just enjoy what an entertaining fellow he is. Gotcha.

He admits to his guilt in the video and served his time.

I've heard Doug's a good storyteller

I enjoyed the interview.

Don't think I said anything that contradicted that.

Yeah like Lionel Carter and the gypsies.

Mastro and Lifson actually bought the Wagner in 1985.
He kept quoting 1996. It overall was an interesting interview

Then what was even the point of your comment??
Did you actually have one?
Or just a snide, condescending remark?

Haven’t watched yet but why did he hate Lipset?

Fascinating interview. Brought back a lot of memories of the people who set up at shows starting in the early 1970s. I especially enjoyed the stories about my hobby mentor Frank Nagy.

If you read his comment carefully, you'll see that he was projecting that statement onto me. He was saying that was *my* opinion of Mastro. Hence he said "gotcha" as in "got ya" rather than "got it" at the end.

To be clear, this is not my opinion of Mastro. Someone asked for the Cliff Notes so I provided them as delivered in the video, and without bias, for the two topics I thought people would be most interested in.

I don't think there's anything wrong with him trimming that sheet cut Wagner. I just think it should have been graded for what it is, as a sheet cut card. But I have a big problem with how he ran his auctions. However, I find him to be remorseful and he's paid his debt to society. I'd give him a second chance. But I understand others who wouldn't. To each their own.

You are reading WAY too much into my reply. I was being snarky about Mastro himself and nobody else.

mastro interview
 

Boy, the crack about Lew Lipset was gratuitous.

Lew Lipset wasn't there from the beginning, but he was a very big deal from the mid 1970s on. The older collectors (like Nagy, Elwood Scharf, Al Price and a lot of other people nobody remembers today) felt comfortable around him.

He was one of the early go-to guys. Lipset, as was mentioned in the interview, had a shot at the 25 grand Wagner. He was also in the running for the BB Magazine photo collection. He was all business; I don't remember him back slapping and yucking it up.

Back issues of The Old Judge, his one-man operation, can be checked out on line. He issued price lists and catalogued obscure issues. There were a couple of books of check lists in there, too.

He was probably the conscience of the collecting business.

He didn't suffer fools.
lumberjack

Lew Lipset is "old school". I once bought several "Near Mint" cards from him trhough his auction on his website. At BEST, they were "Very Good". When I told him the issue with his grading, I was promptly blocked. I was later told by someone else to give him a "pass" because he was a hobby legend. If a hobby legend is that bad at grading cards, I want nothing to do with him.

Apologies then. Now I'm the one projecting words onto you lol. I take it back.

Agree

I doubt Ken Kendrick is going to send it back to be reholdered an A any time soon.

It's all good. I thought "Man if there's one guy in the hobby you can take a potshot at, it's Mastro." Apparently not. I'm trying like hell to become an adult before I turn 50. Do okay a decent percentage of the time.

Great to hear Bill. Those stories were fascinating. Hopefully, I can see him at the National next year.

Probstein and Mastro, 2 of a kind. I got nothing good to say about either of them.

That's bullshit. I'm so sick of reading these completely baseless accusations against Probstein. He does not shill bid his listings. Take off the tin-foil hat.

I'm nearly 50 and haven't managed to become an adult; not even remotely close. Given the way many "adults" behave, I'm quite content with this.

I won a Probstein auction this summer. It was an SGC graded sports card.

A week later, I asked them for tracking info. They informed me that, "due to an ebay glitch this item was double listed and we no longer have anymore in stock."

So, I won a straight auction with (apparently) no shill bidding. That's great; however, they didn't honor the high bid and wouldn't ship the card.

This same item (cert # and all) appeared in a Probstein auction a short time later, where it sold for more money.

Travis/Snowman- I'm guessing that you have never been shilled, to the best of your knowledge? Some have & it's not a great feeling.

Mastro's stories seem like they captured the inevitable moments when a fairly pure hobby started to turned into a business/hobby. That was interesting interesting to hear... I'd read an oral history if anyone ever put a reliable one together -- a sort of "Glory of Their Times"... I think the pure hobbyist are all gone now. Does any one know if an oral history exists? I've read bits and pieces over the years.
---

My understanding of Lew is that his grading scale depended on which side of the table he was standing on. If he was buying, it was VG. If he was selling, it was NM.

Interesting - are we giving these guys a free pass!

I thought there was so much negative about both of these guys and PWCC

anyways - thanks for sharing, I always like to hear perspective from both sides

Happy collecting!

Thanks Jimmy Piccuito

While perhaps not to that extreme, I often witness the same behavior these days.

Surely, that's frustrating. But it's definitely not the norm, and that doesn't constitute fraud. Someone simply made a mistake. They have thousands of listings ending per day. Sometimes, they double post by mistake. I've consigned hundreds of cards with Probstein. The vast majority go through with no issues.


Yes, I've been shilled. More than once. If it's an obvious shill bidding job, I report them to eBay (who then always does nothing about it). But I know what a card is worth to me and what I'm willing to pay for it. If I would have paid the same amount for a Buy-It-Now listing anyhow, then it just doesn't bother me all that much if I got shilled in an auction. Most shill bids are just effectively hidden reserves.

Of course, we all know that countless consignors shill their auctions with companies like Probstein, et. al., but that doesn't mean that Rick himself (or anyone being paid $X/hr to list cards for him) is shilling his own auctions. It's just an absolutely ridiculous claim to make without evidence, and nobody has shown any evidence of that whatsoever (and sold prices do not constitute evidence of this claim, despite the thousands of internet trolls who seem to think otherwise). It doesn't even make sense. It would just be a completely stupid thing for him to even try to do. The risks so greatly outweigh the benefits that it would be completely asinine of him to even try.

You did read the part explaining that they listed the card again a short time later, yes?

I guess they "found" it.

Thanks for sharing the interview. Really enjoyed listening to Mastro's stories especially the Wagner deal. Wish Probstein would have stopped interrupting and talking over him. Could have listened to another hour about the early hobby days. Mastro comes off like he truly regrets his mistakes and has paid the ultimate price both with losing 18 months of life behind bars and his reputation, and I personally think everyone deserves a 2nd chance. Maybe Mastro gets one...I don't know. You might have a different opinion if you were the one financially harmed by his greed.

As an aside, the more I think about the ebay/PWCC debacle, I think ebay is just as culpable and should/could have done so much more to stop the shilling. The PWCC account termination feels more and more like retribution to PWCC's plans to build their own auction platform.

The other listing probably just wasn't paid for. So they relisted it. After that buyer didn't pay, they probably didn't think to check to see if they happened to accidently dual list that card and see if you still wanted it. It's probably as simple as that. Dibble listed by accident. They canceled the second one (yours) and the original listing didn't get paid for, so it was relisted.

LOL

The first one was mine, not the second. Chronologically:

1. I win auction
2. I pay
3. They don't ship
4. They relist

Timeline make sense?

Whatever your facts, an innocent explanation can be constructed. Why waste your time.

Exchanging words with a snowman has entertainment value at the moment.

You are easily entertained my friend.

Quite. I embrace it, though. Simple things to amuse a simple mind.

"Hidden reserves" is something new I learned today.



Sent from my SM-G981U using Tapatalk

I've bid in Probstein auctions and won and never felt there was shill bidding. Like many, I've read about the accusations of impropriety in regard tp Probstein but I have no opinion on it because I don't have access to any evidence. If the stories are true then that's a shame.

I found the statement indicating (see around 23:30) "What I did was probably wrong" as a bit strange to hear but if that's how he feels, then it gives a little insight to his mindset. He did however say what he did was wrong at about the 25 minute mark so there's that. Mastro comments a little about the reason he went to prison for a year and a half. It was interesting to hear his insight to the wrong doing, but there was so much more to this interview that makes it worth listening to.

Mastro seems very genuine in the interview. What's nice about this interview is that it wasn't scripted, it was down to earth hobby talk from the early days of the hobby.

Definitely worth the time, even if you don't like either Probstein and/or Mastro.

I'd take the time to listen to another interview if they do another. It would be cool to see specific topics covered.

Interviews like this are good because they will be around many years from now when a lot of us are gone and new blood is in the hobby (if it survives that long).

I have heard that Bill refused to tell what he knew about other hobby players. Imagine if he had felt differently.

My favorite Bo Belinsky quote: "Never snow a snowman."

Thanks for uploading this.

Yeah, it was a bit annoying how Prob kept interrupting him, however, this wasn't some scripted interview or anything like that. It was a conversation between two card guys.

And like many of you on here said, Mastro paid his debt to society. Going to Federal prison is not a walk in the park. Who knows what he really went through while in there. :eek:

So, Mastro trimmed the Wagner and sold it for $110,000 USD? What about guys who have been trimming cards for ten or twenty-plus years and have made millions? What about the fraud going on in the other auction houses? Mastro gets locked up and all those other guys get to sit at home and count their money - makes sense.

You mentored above that Probstein's initial response to you was that it was dual listed due to an "ebay glitch". Did you check to see if there were in fact 2 listings if this card at that time? This is the "first" listing I was referring to.

Yes, I generally subscribe to Hanlon's razor - "Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by incompetence".

Hanlon would have said no such thing if he knew the sportscards industry.

Yes, I checked multiple times. The first time was when researching comparable sales.

The card had sold roughly 3 months prior. There were no other listings (for that card with that cert #) on eBay between then and my winning bid.

That is why their response, which I copied-and-pasted in quotes earlier, stood out to me.

The interview was like listening to Pete Rose. A brash personality who knows a lot about the history and inner workings of his industry, a very tarnished reputation after being on top of his world, semi-repentant about his deceit, simultaneously embraced and hated . . . but interesting as hell.

Hidden reserves
 

I've bought and sold at auctions for the last 50 years and the hidden reserve has always been around for the quality catalog auctions. Some catalogs will explain the hidden reserve in the written "Auction Terms". The auction lot should have a specified high-low estimate with the listing, and the hidden reserve can't exceed the low estimate.

I dropped out of the East Coast card show circuit by 1984 so I only have good memories of Bill Mastro. Bill was the last one on the phone for my SCD phone auctions that ended at midnight and always a easy to deal with and talk to at card shows. Bill made mistakes and he paid the price so he not getting a free pass. I wish Bill the best of luck going forward.

Peck Dean

That is actually a real good description and a really good comparison about the way he came across.

That's a good analogy, as Mastro is certainly a polarizing figure. I did enjoy hearing Mastro's thoughts (like him or not). My name appeared on the "You've been shilled List" when it was released... and yes it was a real downer. So while I'm certainly not a fan of Mastro or what he did, I was still quite interested to hear the story from his perspective.

Pete Rose (even at his advanced age) probably knows as much about baseball as anyone alive today. I would've put Don Zimmer in that category before he passed, as well. The hobby equivalent is undeniably Mastro. Like Rose, he is still passionate about the hobby and expresses a moderate degree of remorse. Whether it's remorse over what he did or just at getting caught is open to interpretation. Still, some of my best pieces came from the early days of Mastro Auctions (dating back to Mastro & Steinbach).

I agree that Probstein should stick to his "day job", as his interviewing skills were awful, to the point of maddening. Just as Mastro would hit on an interesting topic, Probstein would interrupt him or change course. Just let him speak, for Christ's sake. A good interviewer lets the person complete their thoughts and then bases the follow-up question(s) on what's been revealed (assuming the interviewer possesses good listening skills). Johnny Carson was the master of this, and even Leno was far superior to the current Late Night crop.

Anyway, Mastro's stories of the early days were engaging. I would've liked to hear more about his federal prison experience and how he built his auction house into the empire it was back in the day. Sounded like a follow-up interview might be in the works.

Howard Stern might be the best interviewer and makes the very most of the hour or so he has with his guests.

Did not watch the Mastro interview yet so I cannot comment.

Christiana Amanpour.

I have had a 30 year relationship with Lew Lipset. Yes, he could be a curmudgeon at times and his grading standards were out-of-step with TPG'ers. But what a fountainhead of baseball knowledge and collectibles. His books about 19th century, T & E cards are classics and sit in my library. His auctions, although rudimentary by today's standards, always had great material and were scrupulously run. He belongs in that special pantheon of early pioneers, like Nagy and others, who brought so much to the hobby we love.

Agree about Lew, John. Purchased some cards from him back in the day and he always had interesting material. Read his encyclopedias and Old Judge publications religiously. Is he still active in the hobby?

So that gives him an excuse to treat people like crap. Got it.

Is this viewable other than on Instagram (says the old guy without an Instagram account)?

I'm an old guy without an Instagram account and I just clicked the link in the first post and watched the interview.

Thanks. When I clicked on it the first time it wanted me to log in....but when I just clicked on it now, it went right to the interview.

Michael- I don't have an Instagram account either, but was able to watch anyway.

I found it very interesting (after the first two minutes of looking at an office ceiling). I recall the days when Lifson and Mastro sold cards out of a motel room at Willow Grove shows in the mid-to-late 1980s. A friend and I used to go to their room and look through plastic sheets (or was it boxes?) of T206s picking out ones we needed for our sets (as I recall, nice condition commons were $20-$25...this was well after the days of the $0.15 T206). I never cared about the backs, I was just looking to fill in gaps in my sheets back home. If anything, I didn't want a rare back because that was more expensive. I don't remember them ever setting up at the show itself, but I could be mistaken about that.

Every now and then Rob would show me something more exotic, and somehow I would go from not knowing what I was looking at to buying something I had never seen before that day. He was a very good salesman (I am not saying that in a negative way). I think he knew that the friendly sales method worked better on me than Bill's sometimes more direct approach.

That's the secret sauce in the baseball oral history classic, "The Glory of Their Times." Having listened to all of Ritter's original interview tapes, his patience with the players is what stands out as the key to the great stories he got out of them. I sometimes wondered if something had happened as the seconds rolled by while Larry sat silently to allow his subject to travel back in time in his mind. No attempt to hurry them, prod them for specifics, show off his knowledge of their careers, none of that. Just silence. Then, after what seemed like minutes sometimes, when the player was satisfied that his memory had filled in enough of the detail from many decades long past, he would launch into one of the amazing stories that make the book so magical. If a course in "Interviewing for Oral History" was ever taught, one of the textbooks should be Ritter and GOTT. You can hear the process at work on the audio set, even with a lot of editing for time and flow.

I once listened to an interview with a Civil War veteran that was the same way. The veteran had been at Pickett's Charge, and it sounded like he was about to go into a story about that day, when the interviewer cut him off with a question about something completely unrelated.

interview technique re mastro
 

There can be a short audio delay with Face Time. It makes for clumsy dialogue, but it's not anybody's fault that people are stepping on each other's lines. Somebody correct me if I am wrong.
lumberjack

Scott, I'm gonna bite - did the CW veteran ever get back to the story about Pickett's Charge? If not, bummer... When people like that get on a roll, a good interviewer would just let them keep going.

I bet Mastro could go on for hours. I'd listen but I would also not forget. Did he pay his debt to society? Maybe, but I'm going to bet he isn't "whole" with a lot of hobby community.

interview techniques
 

Lawrence Ritter said he had to keep his subjects focused. He had a woman friend who was helping, running the tape recorder or something, and he had to ban her from the interviews as she would go off subject and distract the old guys. He said he wasn't happy about it, but it was necessary.

As I understand it, he hired someone to make transcripts of the interviews and they simply went on and on.

Riter was, I guess, pretty good at editing the stories down.

Henry Thomas can, perhaps, add to that.
lumberjack

I was just about to post this. While, as a viewer, it was pretty annoying to listen to, you could tell that he recorded it from his cell phone. They were probably having audio lag issues. I remember listening to a podcast between Joe Rogan and Peter Schiff that was the same way. It was super annoying to listen to and Joe later said that it was because of audio issues with whatever they were using to do the recording at the time.

It's been several years since I listened to it, but I don't remember him going back to the story. I was disappointed too.

I thought this too, but he definitely didn't adjust well to the issue. Mastro was on the cusp of going into detail about something I actually wanted to hear him talk about and they trampled each other 2 or 3 times, and the thread of what he was going to say was lost. I've done enough Zoom meetings to know it's tough not to trample each other, but it can be learned. I'd give Rick a pass though. I don't think he was intentionally cutting Mastro off, being a dick, or a big shot or anything like that. It was just inelegant in execution.

I would agree with most of this. Larry's girlfriend, Barbara, who was allowed to participate in several of the interviews, was everything you didn't want in a questioner: full of herself, asking inane questions, obsequiously flirting with the subjects, etc. You can hear all that in the Goose Goslin segment of the audio set, but the Goose just rolls over her, he's got his story to tell and he's going to tell it, and it turns out great. And yes, the freedom and time Ritter gave his subjects could also work against him, and some of the interviews ramble on without producing much of interest. Sometimes the interviewees themselves just weren't very good no matter how much editing was brought to bear, and those were an easy choice to leave off the set. It was Larry's son, Stevie, then in his mid-teens, who handled the tape recorder, incidentally.