Rip
 

I often speculate about what-if scenarios and then see if any of these come to fruition. One of these centers around Zion W. and what would happen to his card prices if, heaven forbid, he was running down the street, tripped over his you-know-what, hit his head on the pavement and tragically died. I was trying to think of anything analogous in baseball. Roy Chapman? Naw.

Jesus. WTF. You can't have meant to post this.

Peter, I'm shaking my head also.

I Can't Stop Laughing
 

Where's Leon when you need him?!? Peace.

Uhhhh, his shoelaces?

?????????

Isn't this the same poster who compared Goldin to Nazis?

Not a cool post , whatsoever!

C'mon, that's pretty classless.

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What did I just read

What in the highness of heck does any of this mean????????? Asking for a friend everyone on the site.

I don't want to get in to a big back and forth but I think this is a dumb ass statement from the OP . I wouldn't expect this from someone with almost 900 posts .
Sorry if this is too blunt .

Jeez, I thought I was the drama king.

We all are now dumber for reading this.


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Sometimes I wonder why we park in a driveway and drive in a parkway...

This is secondary, but it's Ray Chapman, not Roy. As for the overall post, you're a moron.

oh yah
 

...

Nice very nice

The Nazi post I thought may have been a second of thoughtlessness(not excusing it) but this post confirms that something isnt right with this poster

So the OP is a hobby friend of mine (hi John) and a lot of folks on the board. This board might not be here without him. John started the forum back in the early days...somewhere around 97 or so. I hopped on in around '98. There are lots of members still here from those days. John is a good guy but like me, sometimes he says things without thought of repercussions. But if you ever meet him you won't meet a nicer guy.

Nice printer job on this one.

https://luckeycards.com/delonggoose.jpg

Everyone, I am that moron. I have had a very bad two weeks and was trying to find a little humor in something. Clearly, what I wrote was classless and I apologize.
I still do wonder what happens to a star's card values when they have have a life threatening injury. Perhaps Tiger Woods is the answer.

To repeat, Jesus. WTF. Imagining someone's tragic death is funny? Whatever is going on with you John, I hope you get help.

No. Try not. Do. Or do not. There is no try.

Hope things get better soon for you. I have made posts I thought was funny also and had people not find it funny. Only difference is Leon didn't defend me he was one of the ones calling names.:eek::D

I think I understand where you might have been going with this but yeah it came out wrong. Some things should never be posted as comfortably as many of us do. We can forget that this crap is up here forever as opposed to a casual chat over dinner.

I do not know John...never met him but I think he might have been trying to be funny by exaggerating a scenario to ask a more on topic question of what would happen to card prices of a huge star who happened to leave the sport very prematurely for whatever reason.

Rip
 

To have a take of the post, it would be a buying frenzy for the first 24hrs. Prices will settle but still be higher

I've wondered the same thing, but from an academic standpoint, not a humor standpoint. A better example than Chapman might be guys like Agajian or Hubbs, who still command a small premium to this day.

Trying to salvage a conversation out of this........................

For Clemente, who already had his 3,000 hits and place in the HOF assurred, the way he died adds to his popularity as a humanitarian and the value of his life.

For an emerging star like Lyman Bostock, I think it significantly hinders the value of his cards, as he didn't get the chance to make the most of his talent.

In 526 games and 2004 AB, Bostock hit .311, with 624 H, 305 R, 250 RBI, and 48 SB.

Agganis you mean?

Agree. Generally speaking, guys whose careers are cut very short by tragedy or injury are not going to get credit for their potential.

Hi John
 

John, I hope you are feeling better. I know the last time we talked you mentioned health issues and I just want you to know that my thoughts and prayers are with you.

Now let's go have a steak dinner!

Addie Joss?
 

Perhaps Addie Joss is/was a better example - dying at 31 of meningitis?

Or maybe Thurman Munson?

Lyman Bostock.

Interesting case. I suspect dying young may have done more to bolster his legendary status than another 5-6 declining playing years would have.

I think
 

.I think he meant Agajanian , the place kicker....but in this thread , who the **** knows...

..

Oh. Well in that case you could certainly add Harry Agganis to the list, tragically a perfect example of a young man taken very early.

Munson is a great example, as he was nearing a HOF career. I would guess his cards would be worth more had he not died, had a few more productive years, and made it into the Hall.

When a player dies, all of his future potential becomes nothing. I think the poignant story of the early death can sometimes offset this (Brian Piccolo's cards are probably more popular because of his death and the movie made about him) but more often not.

Just my opinion, but I think staying alive and getting the fullest measure out of his potential generally helps the value of a star players' cards the most.

I think Munson is right on the fence. I've seen it argued well that he already was declining and would not have done much for his HOF chances had he continued on that path for a few more years in Cleveland.

His power fell off his last 2 years but he still hit .297 (on 617 AB) and .288 (382 AB.) So that is still pretty productive.

Is the posthumous T206 All-Star team (top 12 or 22) thread relevant here?

Death is inevitable, sooner or later. Trust me, I’m a doctor.;);)

I didn’t think Yoda’s OP was a death wish for Zion, just a less than woke example.

It may have been a woke example though, I dunno. :confused::confused:

yeah, sorry the Golden Greek, yes. Weird fact his successor at QB at BU followed him to the Majors and died young (23) in a plane crash Tom Gastall. No card that I'm aware of but he did play a little in the Majors.

9 total HR for the two seasons though. But who knows, he wasn't so old he couldn't have had a bit of a resurgence. Just a horrible tragedy.

It was a bit before modern shiny stuff really took off but I'm sure someone could track what happened to Jose Fernandez prices, that tragedy still makes me sick to think about.

He was a real super star in the making and so young - similar to Zion (although not on the same level).

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From what I've read Agganis' death might have been avoided with better medical care. Awful story. Always makes me think of the A.E. Housman poem.

I'm thinking his excellent defense and close to .300 average for a few more years would have to help him. He also hit .320 with 7 RBI in the 1978 World Series (and .278 with a HR in the Championship Series.) That adds, not subtracts.

Clemente's death was inspirational and elevated him. The Bostock, Agganis, Piccolo, and Hubbs deaths were tragic, and I think the pathos and their unrealized potential balance against each other somewhat.

But Munson's death was caused by him flying a plane that was more powerful than he was used to.... and not to be too judgemental of a guy who lost his life, he died because he made a really bad decision. So his early death adds nothing in my opinion, but subtracts a lot.

Leon, thank you. I am retiring to my mouse hole and quietly remove my foot from my mouth. Tomorrow promises to be a better day.

Fair enough. Do you think he should be in the Hall?

Who was the young pitcher for the Florida Marlins that died in a boat crash? I think he is a prime example.

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Not before Freehan.... and probably not at all.

Tim Crews and Steve Olin.

Jose Fernandez.

I think that's right, although I wouldn't mind seeing him in either.

Injury can be tricky.

I think of guys like Doug Dravecky losing an arm. That didn’t seem to help him in the long term. Maybe it did in some odd way. Some may remember him just because if that injury.

Roy Campanella gained much publicity and increased in fame due to being paralyzed I think . He was a much better player.

I think the teams market and the talent of the player that makes the most impact.

Death:

I always think of Clemente and Munson. Both are immortalized partly because of their early deaths but also because of talent.

You see many players die too young. Most slip into history.


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It Helps
 

[QUOTE=Jcfowler6;2139372]Injury can be tricky.

I think of guys like Doug Dravecky losing an arm. That didn’t seem to help him in the long term. Maybe it did in some odd way. Some may remember him just because if that injury.

http://imagehost.vendio.com/a/204295...RATTON_NEW.JPG.

..it helps if , when you lose your leg in a hunting accident , they get Jimmy Stewart to play you in a movie....for you youngsters out there , this is Monty Stratton....

..

Kenny Hubbs died young back in the ‘60’s. Way too soon, just a shocker to me as a ten year old kid. Made no sense then, today I feel the same.

I think the best example would be Fernandez, though Pitchers careers are defintely the trickiest. If you asked me 10 Years ago, which young Pitcher I thought would end up in the Hall, I would've said Lincecum, who rattled off two Cy Young's in his first three seasons.

Death of someone young is almost always tragic, never mind the sports impact, they had they're entire lives in front of them and then were robbed by either tragic accident or tragic illness.

Even the Players that had long, storied, careers only to die near the end or just after the end of them is terrible. Mathewson, and Gehrig come to mind in this case for baseball, a more recent example would be Kobe Bryant.

Mathewson was a young man when he died, just 45 years old, had so much more of life ahead of him. Gehrig's tragic health not only derailed his career but robbed him of his life. Both extremely successful in their given careers and both taken from this earth way too soon.

In terns of injuries, I think Mattingly's back issues hurt both his HOF chances and his card prices. At one point, his rookie card was the hottest thing in the hobby. And I never understood why Puckett was a first ballot HOFer and the most votes Mattingly ever received was 28%. I'll give Puckett a slight edge because he put up his stats as a centerfielder and was a major contributor to two World Series winning teams (and had a higher WAR if you care about that kind of thing 51.1 to 42.4). But the difference in them as players is not that great that one should be first ballot and the other not get close.

Interestingly, Mattingly is the most similar player to Puckett.

Ruth was 53.
Kirby Puckett was 46.

Agreed. 5 years ago I would have argued Clayton Kershaw's trajectory was to be in the argument for greatest pitcher of all time. If he had aged like Scherzer or Verlander I think it becomes very difficult to argue against the idea. Because he's been fragile (though still pretty good when he takes the mound) I don't think he will enter the discussion for GOAT even though he may be the modern ERA leader when he retires while having pitched in one of the greatest hitter eras ever.

Almost as crazy as Trammell making the HOF and Whitaker falling off the ballot in his first vote. Wait, nothing is that crazy.

Ok, taking the question seriously. Using Zion as an example, I would assume it would have to be a younger athlete who had shown a lot of potential, accomplished a bit, but wasn't quite considered in his prime when he passed away.

There's so many factors to go into it, it's very hard to quantify. Even something like the circumstances of his death, could come into play where value is concerned. (ie. Pat Tillman).

Zion's cards are already priced based on his massive potential. I think in his case his cards crater within a year (unless it's an autograph issue), and then slowly start regaining their value as nostalgia and myth-making build on his legacy and potential.

In basketball, the only two examples that quickly come to my mind are two Celtics. Reggie Lewis and Len Bias.

Reggie was a very good player, but not a higher level superstar. He was pretty much what he was going to be when he passed at age 27. His cards are priced as such. Not a lot of premium there, from what I can see. Maybe a little bit, based on his untimely passing.

I don't think Len Bias had any contemporary card issues, but based on the prices of some of his memorabilia, he has built quite a following despite never playing an NBA game. He was a high, #2 overall pick, and considered by many to be the top guy in what became a historically weak draft year (at least in the 1st round. 2nd round had lots of gems). He was supposed to be the Celtics.......and the NBA's next superstar. If he had 1 or 2 cards come out, I'd guess they'd be doing fairly well right now.

In my field of boxing, the first two that come to mind are Les Darcy and Salvador Sanchez. Sanchez passed at 23 but was already a dominant Champion, and considered an All-Timer today, even with the very short career. His stuff has always commanded a premium.

Les Darcy was an Australian fighter who died at 21 and flashed a lot of potential against several top American fighters who fought him in his home country. He came to the United Stated in 1916-17 or so, in order to build up his name, and got sick and died before he could ever fight again.

He's always had a fairly strong following, but not nearly that of somebody like Sanchez, who had the chance to prove himself a bit more, before his untimely death.

I think the OP didn't word the whole thing properly and that's what got him into trouble at first. But yeah, I understand what you're asking.

In the hockey world, Connor McDavid is the greatest. I've seen people pay $50,000 USD for his rookie card, and I often wonder what would happen to his card prices if he suffered a career-ending injury or something like that. He has suffered some pretty nasty injuries in the past, but recovered from them. It's pretty scary stuff. Here is one below:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bni6...nnel=SPORTSNET

Hank Gathers, another BKB example.

I haven't seen Tony Conigliaro mentioned yet. He tore it up for three years, then was beaned and was never the same. Then he had a heart attack at 37 and went into a nursing home before dying a few years later. His signed cards usually do very well.

Two years after the beaning, he hit 36 HR and drove in 116.

Other than a brief stint with the Red Sox in 1975, he was out of the league by 26.

Yes but not sure the beaning is really the explanation. His best season was subsequent to the beaning.

Lots of good examples here, but from a purely hobby perspective, I just keep going back to Brien Taylor and Todd Van Poppel, whose card prices rose to then-astronomical levels based on their promise, but who never had their promise materialize, for a variety of reasons.

As a young kid, we chased rookie cards from Bob Horner and Willie Wilson for similar reasons, with similar results.

Also, John is as nice a man as there is in the hobby, and if I had a dollar for each time I worded something awkwardly, I could quit my day job. :)

-Al

Len bias would be a great comp. unfortunately, no cards to compare. His photos are pretty rare and costly though.

In that same timeframe I recall Phil Plantier temporarily generating a lot of interest.

What about Brian Piccolo?

The king of hype for me as a teenager in the late '80's was Greg Jeffries '88 RC with the Mets. His rookie card at the time was going for more than Yaz's rookie card. I remember arguing with a friend how illogical that was. Even if everything broke right for Jeffries, could he possibly have had a higher career ceiling than Yaz?

And speaking of lost potential, there's also Ernie Davis.

Geez Louise guys. I don't think the OP wants anyone to die. He maybe could has stated it a little more eloquently, I'll admit that. But I think it is an interesting topic.. a young rising star as hyped as a Zion. What would happen to his prices, god forbid something happened to him. Pretty morbid but an interesting thought experiment. :cool:

Here's a thought experiment.

Bo Jackson


Remarkable hype, remarkable talent.

There's been a healthy resurgence in Bo cards and memorabilia the last couple years or so, as nostalgia and myth-making have kicked in.

For a couple decades however, you could have picked up all the early era Bo cards (Baseball and Football) you wanted, for very little investment. He had been essentially written off as a novelty by collectors.

Now, go back to 1990 or so. What if instead of dislocating his hip in a playoff game at the end of the football season, he had died in a plane crash or other incident, and we never saw his painful decent into irrelevancy on the baseball field?

He'd be a real life Roy Hobbs, without the comeback. The stories people would tell would be remarkable. His cards probably would be in the stratosphere right now.

Imagine if an arm injury didn’t prematurely end the career of Nolan Ryan. He only gave us 27 seasons; however, they sure were something to watch.

Not that anyone collects him but

This is a deeper cut than most mentioned but if there are any Mets fans on the board you might remember the name Brian Cole. He died in a car accident at the age of 22. He was the number 64 prospect in all of baseball heading into 2001.

This is the line from his last season between A and AA:

137 games, 19 homers, 86 rbi's, 69 SB, 301 average.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...9a9f028829.jpg

Oscar Taveras died at age 22. He was supposed to be the Cardinals right fielder for many years.

https://www.baseball-reference.com/p...averos01.shtml