T206 Honus Wagner SGC 3 What is the Over/Under
 

Hi Everyone

REA is auctioning a 1909 T206 SGC 3 Honus Wagner Card.

What is the Over/Under on this Card with Buyers Premium?

Will it set any records?

Of course it will set records. I think the over/under is $4.5/$5.5 MM.

Sorry. My Bad.

To Clarify will it set the new Record for Highest price paid for a baseball card. Passing the Sale of the 1914 Baltimore News Ruth that recently sold for $6 Million?

Whatever the selling price, at least we'll know it will be legit.

I agree, Jay. I was going to say $5m.

The Ruth is a much scarcer card of a much better player and is Ruth’s first card. The only thing the Wagner has going for it is that it is part of a major set. I see no rational reason for it to pass the Ruth, but that doesn’t mean it won’t happen.

A Baltimore news Ruth sold for 6M?!
 

When? Where? How did I miss it!

Wagner 3 - $5M

I am thinking of going to 6M on it. Now to just come up with the 6M....

Seriously, I think 4.76M to 5.67M, but who knows. It's a really nice card for a Wags...

.

Seems I'm in line with the consensus of 5 million. Probably means it goes for 2 million or 15 million with my prognostication track record.

Does selling a one percent interest in a card with 20,000 shares offered at $3/share count as a sale of a card?

I bet that 1% is in the red. Sometimes I crack myself up.

ignore me, I misread your post

This card is the face of the hobby. 6M


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Some would say that the T206 Wagner is a better looking card as well.

T206 Honus Wagner SGC 3 What is the Over/Under
 

I will take $4MM


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I will take $4MM

Give me 440/400 on the over…

It's also a card of a major leaguer.

Wagner
 

YOU GUYS ARE KILLING ME!!

I owned this exact card in the 70's!

Mike Aronstein (of TCMA fame)whose son Andrew is a member here, turned it up on Long Island I believe. The owner would not sell it to Mike. But he mentioned that the "convention" (which is what they were called in those days) in Detroit was going on and that they had an auction there.

So Mike called Lloyd Toerpe, Jay Barry or Frank Nagy or one of the other Detroit guys running the show in 1973 and it was auctioned off there. I won it for $1,100 outbidding Joe and Karen Michalowicz. I am NOT missing any zero's.

I sold it along with the rest of my collection to Barry Halper in 1976, it was the first of three Wagner's he owned. It disappeared from the hobby, at least as far as I knew until it showed up in a Bill Goodwin auction a few years back where if memory serves it sold for $1.2 M. I asked Bill about it and he said it was consigned by a guy in Houston.

I contacted Brian at REA today and he tells me it changed ownership once since the Goodwin auction.

I'd be curious to know how it got from Halper to Houston. Most likely a trade after he picked up his second Wagner. Didn't he donate one to the HOF? I know Barry traded my Roberts, Konstanky and Stanky Topps Current All Stars for Yankee World Series rings so he did trade.

Maybe this history will tug at the heartstrings of the consignor and he will honor the $1100 I paid for it so it can go back into the hands of the first collector who owned it. 😁

A bunch (maybe more than a bunch) of members of Net54 should put their money together and win the card. I'm not kidding. Then in 5 or so years, sell it and everyone would make a lot of money. Sometimes you just gotta say WTF and be completely serious. Again, I'm not kidding.

Fred-If you don’t mind me asking, why did you sell the collection when you did? Did you just lose interest or did Halper’s bid just look too attractive. I think I’m about the same age as you and I know that I sold a coin collection at about the same time in my life.

Jay

Fred is correct that my dad discovered the card on Long Island in 1973. Not only that but I still have the hand-written receipt he received on a piece of notebook paper when he purchased the card -- two days after the show ended on July 22, 1973.

According to the Sep-Oct 1973 issue of Bob Jaspersen's Sport Fan this was the first Wagner ever sold at auction "at a convention" and I could be wrong but would think the first ever sold at auction period:

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...439abe9f_c.jpg

Ruth a “much better player” than Honus Wagner ?

Waaat ? :eek:

It’s the Mona Lisa of all cards
 

My guess is over 5.5m

It’s the 1 card that even non collectors have heard of, the Mona Lisa of all cards

I’m guessing in the neighborhood of 4-5+million, but who knows?

The Baltimore news Ruth should be the most valuable card in existence in my opinion, but there was no sale for 6 million. 1 percent of the card was offered at that valuation I suppose.

I’d love to see a Baltimore news actually hit the open market in a forum like REA and see what it would actually bring. If it was in decent shape , maybe over 6 million! It’s such a rare card.

I’d rather own this Wagner than the “psa 8”

I would wager that the Wagner goes for $6M+.


Steve

Jay:

Halper came onto the scene out of nowhere in the early 70's and was paying three times what things were going for at the time so everyone was selling him stuff.

He lived about 20 minutes from me at the time and asked if he could come over to see my collection. When he did he asked "how much for the Wagner"? I said I'd never sell the Wagner, I'd have to sell the entire collection. He asked how much for the entire collection?

Well, in those days that never happened. I sat down and wrote out long hand everything I had. T200, T201, T205, T206, T207 complete, most Goudy sets including Lajoie, Play Balls, tons of regionals, Topps and Bowman complete except for 52 Hi #'s ( I refused to pay $3 each for them!), Exhibits, Topps test sets, uncut sheets etc. etc. Came up with a price took 15% off as was the custom in those days if you were buying something big/expensive and gave Halper the price.

Without blinking or negotiating he said "fine" and ended up paying me with quite a few postal money orders made out to me from Joe Tinker, Frank Chance. and other old players... you get the idea.

I was 26 years old, getting married, and figured it was time. No one else would have been able to buy the entire collection, so off it went. My only mistake was figuring the "current" value and not the 3X $$ Halper was paying at the time.

Saying all that, the sale allowed me a few years later to start a business that evolved into more businesses and I was able to retire at age 55.

So, I would have had to live in a tent for 45 years in order to cash in now and sell the Wagner for the Millions of dollars you all are throwing around that is making me SICK!!! :)

Fred

Great stories, Fred - thanks for sharing. Must be quite a thrill to at least know you owned it for a few years!

Great story Fred and one of the reasons I love this sub, hands down the greatest member base. No other group even comes close. If it makes you feel any better I sold a 14CJ Wagner that would grade a 4-5 today when I was a broke 21 year old trying to make rent for $250. You do what you have to do when circumstances demand it. Congrats on owning the nicest $1110 Wagner I've ever seen.

Looking forward do the auction will sell for a big amount.

If an undersized Goudey Ruth sells for 4, this is going a lot higher than 5 IMO.

Fred, sincere thanks for sharing that story.

The first collector who owned it?
 

Wouldn't the collector that Mike A got it from be the first who owned it?

But seriously Fred - Sorry for your pain!

Is that really in doubt? Ruth dwarfs Honus in nearly every offensive stat. 183 WAR vs 130. Wagner's best season for WAR would be Ruth's 7th best. Ruth's career OPS+ is higher than Wagner's single season best.

Wagner was an incredible player but, yes, the gap really was that big.

I agree, and I don't follow pre-war much but I think it will finish higher than the 6 mil Ruth.

Fred: Thanks for sharing that story. As you tell it it sounds like you did just fine with that sale. That money helped kick start a career that led to what sounds like a successful life. It must have been a wonderful time to collect when you started, so much available and actual face to face interaction being required to add to your collection. I started my collecting much later in life, around 1990, but even then I remember the incredible variety of scarce cards that were available at shows. Stay well my friend and hopefully some day we run into one another.

Jay

My bet is that a member here has his eye on that card and I wish him all the luck in acquiring what would be a a truly exceptional T206 Wagner.

Bill James ranks Honus Wagner as the #2 player of all time and his 1908 season as the greatest ever. Hall of Fame voters gave Wagner the same number of votes as Ruth. It may be your opinion that the gap is big, but I and many others strongly disagree.

The numbers don't lie. And James is wrong about Wagner's 1908.

Live ball vs deadball

Not only live ball vs dead ball, but I don't understand how all the complicated modern metrics could even be applied so far back.

How could you really judge Wagner's defensive WAR from back in 1899 in the same manner as today? I'm guessing that more chances is assumed to mean a better range, but is it really that simple?

That Ruth was better than Wagner, or by how much, isn't the issue. This is the great American baseball card, a cultural icon, in a way the Ruth is not.

Let's just put it this way: The T206 Wagner is to baseball cards what Ruth is to ballplayers.

Very well put.

Everyone has their own opinions and that is what makes the hobby great.Personally, given the choice of the two I would take the Ruth every time.

Every one of us would like to have back just about everything we ever sold in our time in the hobby. But presumably the money we got at the time served a good purpose--yours certainly did--and not one of us imagined in our wildest dreams what would happen to the market for those things. Our generation of collectors (I'm 75) have many stories similar to yours, Fred, in every genre. Things were cheap in the 1960s and 1970s, we got the thrill of putting together some amazing collections for very little, then when the market started accelerating we sold them to start businesses and families, travel, enjoy our youths, etc. How lucky we--and you--were to have had the privilege of that life experience.

This one has traceable provenance....that should drive the price up a bit :)

Are all the Wagners other than the HOF one owned by individuals? It would be a pretty cool item for a corporation to own and display, I imagine some of them own some pretty high powered art and have major security anyhow.

+1


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I disagree. Displayed art will evoke a reaction, even if you know nothing about the piece. Displayed art also tends to be large and can be seen just in passing. For 90% of the people the card would mean nothing other than the company spending lots of money, on a little piece of cardboard, that could have gone to increase wages or improve conditions.

Houston?
 

It may be possible that if this card ended up in Houston it was a part of the original "Texan Collection" that is now being sold by Hunt auctions. Jeff W

Oh man, wish we still had the PSA 4! I bet that would fetch a pretty penny today.

I'm going to guess in the $6-7M range, but honestly wouldn't be surprised if it hit eight figures.

I'm guessing it will go over 7 mil. there's a lot of money in the hobby right now and someone will dig deep to get it.

I wish I had the bankroll to do this, I get the feeling there’s more than a few people on here who would be ready to place some real $ wagers and possibly put me back in the poorhouse. But here’s the line I would set:

Over $5.75M - +110
Under $5.75M - -140

I think it sets a record, 7 million or more, think of what the 52 mantles have been going for and there are thousands of them. There are only 70ish of these and everyone knows this card.

If someone offer $15Mil to buy the card now, would REA just sell it privately? I am pretty sure it has happened before on other significant consignments in other AHs.

Hi All,

Great information and great thoughts and opinions from everyone.

Keep it going.

I think it has strong eye appeal and should challenge the $6 million dollar record of the 1914 Ruth Card.

I also think the T206 Wagner should have the record since as it was mentioned earlier it has been the Face of Baseball Cards for over 100 Years and will Continue to be the Face for a long time to come.

10M+

Wagner T206 deserves to be the first eight figure card sale in the history of sports cards. When we get to $5m+ market, the bidders pockets are deep and 1M jumps become commonplace. If there is a bidding war it could go much higher.

Does anyone know if REA is planning to display this card in their booth at the National?

I agree:

Attachment 470183

I'm willing to post this photo as often as needed for someone not to have to see them 'just in passing' - however, there is a cover charge if you come see them in person...lol



=

I hope the Wagner card outsells the Baltimore News Ruth (which, in addition to being a minor league card, is basically a team schedule made to look like a baseball card and isn't even part of a set).

The Babe should be on the most valuable card in the hobby, but not that way.

Why hasn't the M101 Ruth taken those reigns?

Because it's missing one of the three elements that make something a "top item" in any hobby.
It doesn't have a great story behind it, even one that probably isn't true.

Now I'm wondering what card the Wagner took that title from. I'm guessing there may not have been such a thing as a famous baseball card before 1909, but one of them had to be the most famous. N28 Anson?

$6,000,206.

REA IS OPEN And Wagner is off to the Races
 

Hi Everyone

REA is now Open and the T206 Wagner as 10 bids already and $2.3 Million before Buyers Premium.
There is "NO RESERVE" and thus will sell.

Details to follow

It's at 2.5 at the time I write this before the premium so my guess is over the 6 million mark. I'd bet it takes the record

$7.5M before buyers premium:)

Have at it, auction is open!

Update on This One
 

Seconds ago I just received an email from REA telling me the auction is now open. This card is already at $2.3 million. Wow. What a start. Peace.

A number of years ago REA sold a Baltimore News Ruth if memory serves for around 50k. And Rob Lifson said in the description that he thought the card had the ability to become one of the most valuable cards in the Hobby. ...He got that one right.

12 million

I think this card will go for over $6mm. It is THE card to own in the middle of an unprecedented boom

According to todays email announcing the early opening of the auction, yes it will be on display along with other auction highlights.

REA is now accepting crypto currencies as payment in this auction, look under the description of this card.

A lot of dark monies maybe entering this hobby. Idk 🤷🏼*♂️

Fred,
I read your story in total amazement. What a collection you had accumulated. How, if you don’t mind me asking, does a 26 year old manage to acquire all those cards? The fact you wouldn’t spend $3 for a ‘52 high number tells me you were thrifty.

slow but steady it goes up.

$3.2 million dollars (before buyers premium) a little while ago

Interesting but does this or does this nor effect the rest of the market.

I mean we know the prices have spiked especially on high end items.

What happens to the rest of the market. Will it stay at these new prices or down tick.

Hard to tell......a lot of dark money through crypto coming in on these big items.

I think long run this card will appreciate.

The rest of Vintage Ruth, Cobb, Mantle, and Jackie Centered In 6’s and above are Rock Stars.

I think lower grade will come down a lot take for examples 33 Ruth’s grades 1-5’s were nuts from Jan-April in those grades they have come back considerably.

I don't think the price of an ultra elite card like this affects the overall market one way or the other.

I think there is some effect. I think Honus Wagner cards in general have gone up bc of the popularity of this specific Wagner, especially ones with this pose- like tip top, e90-2, w600, e103, etc. I also think that t206 in general gets a bit of a bump. The card is a t206 Honus Wagner card - that rising tide should/could/is lift all Wagner items and t206 in general. As far as the market on-whole, anytime an elite card sells and gets press, it draws attention to cards, which ultimately impacts the entire hobby in general. I don’t know that it directly makes a 1983 Tony Gwynn more valuable, but it may cause a 40 something to pull out that shoebox and get back into collecting, etc….

Who knows of course, but my belief is that only a very tiny fraction of collectors are in a position to compete for this card, that it will sell for what it sells for reasons having little or nothing to do with the overall market, and that the rest of us aren't going to be influenced one way or the other by what it sells for. I don't buy the rising tide theory. Did the off the charts sale of the recent Jordan 10 affect anything? I doubt it. And this card of course is far far rarer. Just a sui generis sale to me.