Let's talk about Hall of Fame candidates who have been "neglected"
 

Francis Joseph "Lefty" O'Doul is one of my favorite guys in Baseball. It mystifies me, why Lefty O'Doul is not in the BB Hall of Fame.
For starters, Lefty's career BA is an outstanding .349 over a Major League career that spanned 11 years. His hitting ability is high-lighted by a .398 BA with
254 Hits, 32 HR's, 122 RBI's, while playing for the Phillies in 1929. He followed that up with a .383 BA in 1930. I could continue with all the reasons why he
should have been enshrined in the Hall of Fame, but I leave it to you to read his SABR write-up...... https://sabr.org/bioproj/person/lefty-odoul/

Between his playing years, and his years as a Manager in the PCL, Lefty is a tremendous example of Baseball at it's best.

Let's hear your stories of some of the BB players who you feel have been neglected to be in inducted in Baseball's Hall of Fame.


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TED Z

T206 Reference
.

Hof
 

Bad Bill Dahlen!

Trent King

The person who most belongs in the Hall of Fame but is not in is (in my opinion) James Creighton, who seems more than anyone to have shifted the game from offense vs. defense to being oriented around pitcher vs. batter. The way the veteran committees work now suggests he ain't getting in anytime soon either.

O'Doul was a starter for five seasons and played 970 games. I think he has a good case for his contributions to the game paired with his obvious talent in a very short career, but his contributions to the game are central in a country that the Hall of Fame is not set up to recognize.

I would vote for Bill Dahlen.

I am surprised Gil Hodges is not in, with his managing of the 1968 Mets as the cherry on top to an excellent career with a mythologized team.

Kenny Lofton may or may not deserve it, but he sure deserved to actually be considered. I hope he gets an honest examination someday.

I'll agree on Lefty O'Doul and Dahlen, would also add Dummy Hoy, Coombs, Magee, & Wood.
_

Wonderful post, Ted!

I would normally say Minnie Minoso, as I think he's put together a more than impressive resume. I feel like he's defintely gotten some more attention lately though, with Negro League Stats being worked in. Luis tiant is another, who I think really deserves the nod, as he had some very impressive years, with the Red Sox

In recent history, Kenny Lofton would be another player that had some incredible years on the field, only to immediately fall off the ballot.

Maybe a less conventional pick, due to the circumstances, and maybe belongs more in the "Hall of Fame talent" category, but, Cecil Travis deserves some consideration. He was a hell of a ballplayer, put together 8 high quality seasons before the War. Suffered frostbite, comes back and is a shell of his former self. I think he technically hits the service time requirement, but will probably never get in.

Whenever one of these types of 'conversations' starts up I always mention Dave Steib. I admit my bias as a Blue Jays fan, but to me he was--along with Jack Morris, I suppose--the dominant AL starter of the '80s.

A horse who got absolutely robbed in '84 Cy Young voting (fourth? seriously?!). Check it out: Pete Vukovich had nowhere near the year Steib had. There was a five-year stretch where everytime he took the ball there was a chance that he might toss a no-no. He did: once. Though he lost a couple of others in the ninth, and came within a whisker of tossing back-to-back no-hitters if memory serves. And all of this with a lousy team behind him and an equally lousy bullpen to save games for him (that might explain why he threw so many innings and so many complete games).

Never had a real shot at the post-season either: he was past-it by the time the Jays got good as team. I have always maintained that had he played for a quality team--especially one with a large following--Dave Steib would be a borderline HOFer.

I'll echo some of the names already mentioned:

- Lefty O'Doul - Playing career + huge role in baseball's popularity in Japan + PCL manager
- Kenny Lofton - Way better career than Lou Brock. Much better fielder, way better baserunner (Brock's caught stealing's almost completely mitigated the value of his stolen bases
- Minnie Minoso - Think he warrants entry, particularly when combining his Negro League career (which was short) with his career in the MLB. (Using MLB in the way it was used then. I recognize that the Negro Leagues are now officially a Major League).
- Johan Santana - I much prefer a Hall-of-Fame with the players who were elite, even if only for a shorter period of time. Santana was the best pitcher in baseball for roughly 5 years. I'll take him in over Jack Morris personally (though I am sure others disagree).
- Andruw Jones - Arguably the best defensive centerfielder ever. 400+ home runs.
- Dick "Cannonball" Redding - One of the greatest pitchers to ever play in the Negro Leagues.

Rick Reuschel or however you spell it might have been a bit better than his counting stats.

Dewey Evans had a nice career.

There are the usual suspects like Gil Hodges and Dale Murphy and Tony Oliva and Dick Allen.

One of my favorites, Luis Tiant.

Jim Kaat and Tommy John with close to 300 wins each.

Billy Pierce.

I believe there are a bunch of 2nd basemen who deserve enshrinement.

In rough order, Whitaker, Grich, Randolph, Kent, Utley, Pedroia, maybe Kinsler.

Cano would also be on the list if he hadn't been stupid and popped for steroids (and twice, no less).

Minoso really should be in, it's long overdue at this point.

Curt Schilling is clearly a HOFer, I'm fine with a world where a pitcher of his quality is not in, but by the Hall's standards with their SP picks the last decade, he belongs.

Jeff Kent has a very good case as one of the best hitting 2B ever, but seems to be getting little real consideration and is going to fall off the ballot.

For the pre-war side, Larry Doyle has a good case and has not been mentioned, I think.

If you think 3B is underrepresented, Ken Boyer.

Cecil Travis

The problem with Lefty O'Doul is the problem with Buck O'Neil. They made significant contributions, but their contributions do not fit within the parameters of the way hall of fame voters are instructed to cast their votes. Of course, Curt Schilling is a case in point that many of the voters don't care.

I don't think you can make assumptions about years someone never played, although obviously before the war he was headed in that direction. If I recall Kenny Cole and I debated this one a while back. Knowing Kenny, he probably thinks he won lol.

Firpo Marberry should be in as the first great relief pitcher. 148 wins, 99 saves and a .627 winning percentage. Was Rollie Fingers before Rollie was even born.

Let's talk about Hall of Fame candidates who have been "neglected"
 

"Turkey Mike" Donlin is one of my favorite T206 subjects. His life story is part of the reason why I like him.
In 1905, John McGraw made Donlin the Captain of the New York Giants....and Mike enjoyed his best season, batting a career-high .356, with 216 Hits
and Mike led the NL with 124 Runs. Mike's career BA = .333, if he had taken his BB career more seriously.... "he would have been a contender" …..for
the Hall of Fame. Instead, he and his wife were very much devoted to Vaudeville. In New York City they were the "Talk of the Town".

Hey Guys.... you can catch "Turkey Mike" on the TCM Channel when they are featuring the old Silent Movies. Donlin appeared in 65 movies from 1914
to 1933. Including, the movie classic "The General", and the 1927 very popular BB movie...."Slide Kelly Slide".


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SWEET CAPORAL 350-460 Factory #30


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

Donlin is an interesting guy, but he was a starter for 5 seasons. For a guy whose claim to baseball greatness is a .333 batting average, 1,282 hits is a very small amount.

I'd put him in the "great talent, wasted his career and much of his life" category of what-could-have-been's.

Chick Hafey was a starter for 7 years, the player I can think of with the shortest real tenure in the modern major leagues who made the Hall (and whose election is almost universally derided).

Creighton obviously should be in there

I always mention Ken Boyer and Vada Pinson.

I think the Hall wasn't too far off track when I was a kid...

I recall a book My Greatest Day in Baseball, by Carmichael, I read it several times as a kid; one time I read it and then started and finished it a second time... Most of Those guys belonged in the Hall, and most of those guys were the only ones who belonged in the Hall.

I agree with:

O'Doul
Dahlen
Kaat

I'd DEFINETLY add Ed Reulbach

I could live with Travis Jackson and Joe Wood

No to Lofton, Schilling, A Jones... and others.

Hodges and Murphy were REALLY good guys; but to me they fall a bit short and that 'good guy' and 'deserving' sentiment doesn't and shouldn't tip the scales. Dick Allen wasn't a good guy, but wasn't as bad as some think, I could almost live with him getting in.

I'm a Cardinals fan, starting with seeing Mr. Musial play in 1963. Boyer was a dependable RBI / cleanup hitter in 1964... but he falls a bit short of what I think of as Hall standards. I think Molina will get in, I'm definitely a Molina fan, but I'm thinking he's right at the threshold and needs a bit more...

It's not little league soccer where everyone plays, everyone is included, everyone gets to play a lot, everyone gets a gold star, and everyone gets a trophy. There's already a couple of dozen that I think should have never gone in, and that's realistically unfixable. Let's not compound that by adding more sow's ears to what should have been only silk purses.

If Reulbach is a HOFer, I don't see how Schilling isn't, statistically.

Get a copy of Bill James' Historical Baseball Abstract and read the two page article "Ed Who"

First edition...

I've read it. Reulbach was a fine pitcher. He pitched almost 1,000 innings less than Schilling, with an ERA higher after you adjust for context. I have a hard time seeing how he is a HOFer and Schilling is not still.

Gil Hodges is probably the most glaring omission IMO. Of course, he actually got in in 1994, only to have Ted Williams deny the deciding vote in an act of pure evil, but I digress. I'm not as high on Dahlen as many others are, but I hope he gets in since I have his Mayo rookie :). In terms of modern players whose candidacies have been neglected, I'll go with Fred McGriff. He was a model of consistency and if he had hit just 7 more HR, he probably would have been first ballot.

Colavito.

Had the same career numbers as Gil Hodges despite playing in pitchers' parks (so his career OPS+ is a lot higher).

Who here of a certain age didn't think back in the day that Steve Garvey was a lock HOFer? The metrics really were not kind to him.

George Van Haltren.
Pete Browning (but I'd hate to have to get one of his cards).

Albert Belle - one dominant season after another before his career was ended by injury.

Jim Edmonds - 393 homers and elite defensive CF

George van Haltren would be a good addition.

Schilling... I concede to bias against him. He won 70 more games than he lost. Ed Reulbach won 76 more games than he lost, while pitching in about 170 fewer games, .632 winning compared to .597. Reulbach is ranked 45th in lifetime winning percentage, Schilling 127th. Both are in lofty company. Spud Chandler leads that list.

Bill James' Politics of Glory (I think original edition is best) covers how Hafey and a few others got into the Hall who arguably shouldn't have. Hafey was a Cardinal, as was his HOF mentor Frankie Frisch.

Thank You for reading the Ed Who article... I'm a fan of his, obviously. I don't the the 1908 Cubs even make it to the World Series without him. And if they hadn't, we'd have a few less Cubs cards in T206. The successful teams of the day have more cards.

Edmonds... as a Cardinal I should advocate his induction, but I just think that the line oughta be just a tiny bit beyond. Hall of Fame, not Mansion of Fame. The Few, like with the Marines.

Vada Pinson, Gil Hodges, Dale Murphy, Curt Schilling and Dummy Hoy would be my top 5.

A bunch of players with nothing at all in common, but all deserving IMHO. Would also love to see Dave Concepcion and George Foster get in some day, but that's more of a sentimental thing.

Dave Parker
 

Alone on offense you can make a strong argument for the HOF. Throw in his defense and the case becomes better. Granted, he was hardly likable or someone you'd want to split a croissant with. Moreover, cocaine always hung over his candidacy. But if HOF voters overlooked it for Tim Raines it why should that be an issue for Parker?

Moreover, the idiocy of 3,000 hits equaling automatic entry (Rose aside) rears its ugly head. If Parker had 288 more hits he would be a HOF lock, given historical precedent. That's silly because if he averaged 15 more hits per year to hit 3,000 that wouldn't have materially influenced his offensive profile.

Agree with Parker. He was the most feared hitter in baseball for a pretty long stretch. And also had that cannon of an arm... good call.

Yep, Hodges is definitely a "glaring" omission - Next chance for him will be in December 2021 when candidates from the "Golden Days" era (1950–1969) are once again considered.....

One of my favorites -

<a data-flickr-embed="true" href="https://www.flickr.com/photos/150864751@N07/49877287318/in/album-72157714245015612/" title="#187 Hodges SGC 80"><img src="https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49877287318_de3b2aa7a1.jpg" width="500" height="316" alt="#187 Hodges SGC 80"></a><script async src="//embedr.flickr.com/assets/client-code.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Ross Barnes. The first superstar of recognized professional baseball. Only player to hit over .400 in four seasons. Pioneer type players are shamefully underrepresented and almost omitted in the HOF.

I think the state of TN is greatly under-represented in the Hall...

Parisian Bob Caruthers
Clyde Milan
Tommy Bridges
Vada Pinson

I think they all had pretty outstanding careers....probably just short of the Hall but damn fine....

Gil is a perfect argument against a lot of the players we are discussing here. When you combine his managerial and player record he looks like a hall of fame, however voters are not supposed to vote on anyone as a player/manager. His stats are light as a 50s 1st basemen...not in comparison to the league but in comparison to the established powerhitting HOFers. It wouldn't be a travesty if he were in neither is it one that he's not. Never really lead the league in anything all that significant, WAR well below the established level for firstbasemen, he had a lot of All Star appearances, but so did Ed Bailey. After his career he was Really nice player but you have to be a big hall guy to let him in. He was an under .500 manager, but did get the Mets an amazing world series, so there's that. He would have likely climbed in his win % had he not died young.

Some people will argue he lost years to the war. That's conjecture...he probably didn't miss much time but even if he did you can't make assumptions on "what if." If you're going to do it for Thurman Munson and Gil Hodges you have to do it for Vida Blue and Tony Conigliario.

One other thing. He was only 47 when he died, which is tragic, but I have neve seen a picture of him, even from his early days when he looked younger than 47.

I think Carlos Delgado and Fred McGriff are overlooked because they came up in the Steroid Era.

I would like to see Tommy John get in not only for the nearly 300 wins, but also for the surgery that bears his name. I also like seeing Vada Pinson getting some love in this thread. When I first started taking baseball seriously as a player (maybe 6th grade?), my dad borrowed an instructional video from the coach at the high school where he taught. It had Vada Pinson going through various hitting drills. He's been an under-the-radar favorite of mine ever since.

Id vote for Johnny Kling. He was constantly voted best catcher by his peers whom played with him and he lead the Cubs to 3 straight pennants, took a year off (Cubs finish 2nd) comes back and brings the cubs to the series again in '10

Attachment 466614

Fred McGriff and his 493 HRs is in if not for the 1994 strike, which robbed him of at least 7 HR. He was having his best season, with 34 home runs in his 113 games, before the player strike wiped out the rest of the season.

I have no sympathy for the players regarding that strike but it's too bad most of them (Molitor, Morris, etc.) didn't pay a price like McGriff.

Lefty
 

O’Doul is in the Japanese Baseball Hall of Fame. An unofficial ambassador for baseball, he brought the DiMaggio’s and later The Babe and other stars to Japan!He managed Joe and Dom when they started out with the Seals.Dom credited Lefty for making him a major league hitter! Lefty brought his teams to Japan postwar which definitely help the US/Japan relations.

I think Minnie Minoso is probably the most glaring omission. Hodges is likely in that conversation as well.

With everyone else, different people have their personal favorites. I'd like to see Tiant get in. And Steve Garvey - though I understand why he's not in - relatively weak for a 1B in career homers, not a great OBP - low WAR if you want to evaluate him on advanced stats - but there is a decent argument to be made he was the best 1B in the NL for about a decade. He has everything else - the ASG appearances, the awards...

Lou Whitaker
Darrell Evans
Lance Parish
Chet Lemon
Kirk Gibson
Johnny Grubb

I don't think I won. I feel like we each argued our perspectives and left it at that. It was up to others to decide whose arguments carried the most weight, although I still feel pretty strongly that he deserves consideration.

My friend and I had a pretty lengthy debate regarding Harold Baines before he was elected. He was for, I was against. At that time, I listed him in what I called the HALL OF VERY GOOD. What I also did was ask myself a question regarding his candidacy. I asked myself "did he play his way into the conversation?", meaning does his career have a legitimate possibility that he could be looked at as far as the Hall of Fame Conversation goes. In looking at it that way my answer was a very overwhelming yes, he did play his way to consideration for the honor. As far as I'm concerned, once your name's in the conversation (Especially in the Vet's Committee), anything can happen. I have stuck to that logic ever since.

I don’t think I would vote for Delgado in the end, but he very much deserved a fair look and genuine consideration instead of falling off the ballot first year.

McGriff I think belongs. If we keep out the steroid guys but only elect guys with steroid-level stats like Frank Thomas and Ken Griffey very few players from this era will be making the hall.

I'm on Team Peter...and his additional comment on Ken Boyer. Add Minnie Minoso...


It would be nice if a few already in the HOF could be traded out...several simply don't belong.

Gil Hodges for Barry Larkin??? And so on....

Not only no but
 

First off, I don't believe this player is a HOFer. What I find interesting is that the second article assures the player into the HOF. I have a couple pre-1936 articles that assure the "no-no" pitcher a place in the HOF. What baffles me is what "HOF" are they talking about in 1916? I was always under the impression the HOF was created around 1936... Was there a HOF back then?:confused: Also, is the T-200 of Boston AL the only publicly available ephemera of George "Rube" Foster?.
PS sorry for sideways pics, and Smokey Joe should be in.

What’s your favorite team? :D

The Hall of Fame was not a physical place or entity then; just a turn of phrase meaning a players greatness will be remembered, often in the context of a singular achievement like in this example. The term used in this sense predates baseball

Curve Ball.

With just 84 more hits in 2012 (of 2769 Career):
Johnny Damon would have joined Hank Aaron and Derek Jeter;
as the only players in MLB history to have at least 130 hits in 17 consecutive seasons. A true mark of a consistent and excellent hitter.

But alas, only 16 consecutive seasons; "17" truly was The Number. I am not introducing this for debate or analysis; just a statement of baseball stat fact.

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https://www.net54baseball.com/pictur...ictureid=31321

I completely agree with you, Peter. I don't think Garvey is a Hall of Famer, but if in 1979, you had to guess the current players who would make the Hall, Garvey would have solidly been on that list.

I think if Nap Rucker had the good fortune to come up with the Giants rather than the Dodgers, he would be in the Hall.

How in the world did Johnny Grubb his way into this list?

Brian

abothebear must have been hungry when he made that list....

David

During college days it sure seemed to me that Steve Garvey was a lock for the Hall. 1974 thru 1980.... then everything tapered off... and for a while. Maybe we were paying more attention to baseball and Garvey's production during those 7 years, and then not so much to either afterwards; leaving us with the idea that he must have been the same old 'batting 4th, Garvey' for those subsequent years.

I wonder if us seeing the Dodgers so competitive, making the playoffs, during the last half of the 70s, if that has us remembering him as better than he was.

I understand that I'm in a tiny minority about Ed Reulbach. Seems to me that there's considerable agreement about a few players getting in, and then a bunch of Hall of Very Good players. Minoso, Damon, and others fit better in the HofVG, in my mind.

Went through each name and sorted them by what I think their category is. Added some new ones, ignoring steroid guys as the argument against them has nothing to do with objective discussion of performance or ranking among pioneers, but is a purely ethical argument that seems a separate issue from the analytical arguments.

Players I would vote for as a no-brainer, whose exclusion from the Hall is a detriment to the Hall
Ross Barnes
James Creighton
Minnie Minoso
Curt Schilling


Players I would vote for and think clearly belong, but see a reasoned argument against:
Bill Dahlen
Gil Hodges
Jeff Kent
Kenny Lofton
Fred McGriff


Players I could go either way on, borderline yes or borderline no:
Dick Allen (not mentioned yet)
Albert Belle
Lance Berkman (not mentioned yet)
Ken Boyer
Pete Browning
Bob Caruthers
Rocky Colavito
Pebbly Jack Glasscock (not mentioned yet)
Tommy John
Jim Kaat - Poor ERA compared to league, lots and lots of consistent innings
Don Mattingly (surprisingly not mentioned yet)
Jim McCormick (not mentioned yet)
Tony Mullane (not mentioned yet)
Tony Oliva
Dave Parker
Cannonball Redding - what I have seen of his surviving numbers seems to me to suggest he is not a HOFer, but the numbers from his leagues are incomplete and dubious.
Luis Tiant
George Van Haltren
Lou Whitaker


Players I think are below Hall standards but I see how a reasonable argument could be made:
Tommy Bridges
Dave Concepcion
Johnny Damon
Carlos Delgado
Larry Doyle
Jim Edmonds
Darrel Evans
Dwight Evans
George Foster
Steve Garvey
Kirk Gibson
Bob Grich
Dummy Hoy
Andruw Jones
Johnny Kling
Sherry Magee
Thurman Munson (not mentioned yet)
Dale Murphy
Lefty O’Doul - Japan & PCL has never before been a factor for consideration.
Buck O’Neil - Nostalgia in and of itself is not enough.
Billy Pierce
Vada Pinson
Ed Reulbach - short career and his peak is not high enough to compensate
Johann Santana
Dave Stieb - About equal to Morris, but let’s not make that mistake twice.
Joe Wood


Players for whom I do not see a reasoned argument, are not serious candidates:
Jack Coombs - 2,300 IP and an ERA worse than the league average. 1 excellent season is not a HOFer
Mike Donlin
Johnny Grubb - This must be a tongue in cheek joke
Chet Lemon- This must be a tongue in cheek joke
Firpo Marberry
Clyde Milan - No HOF milestones, 9% better bat than league, good player but there is no way he is HOF
Lance Parish
Dummy Taylor - Less than 2,000 IP, 116 wins, ERA 7% better than league. Over 100 pitchers belong ahead of him.
Cecil Travis - Would be first player elected to the Hall of Fame specifically for what he did not accomplish rather than for what he did.

Mention of Mattingly and Garvey make me think another thread - “Guys who felt like Hall of Famers during their careers, but now are unlikely to be inducted”.

Guess you’d need to specify “non-steroids addition” to keep the list of reasonable size. :D

Garvey, Mattingly, Murphy…maybe Joe Carter?

I would add Dave Parker, Al Oliver, Jim Edmonds, Darryl Strawberry, Dwight Gooden and maybe David Cone to that list.

And if they fail to make it to Cooperstown in the future, definitely Joe Mauer and Buster Posey (looking ahead).

I still think Edmonds and Cone have a shot via Vets committee.

I remember reading the term “Al Oliver Abyss” describing the gap between 2700 career hits and 3000. :)

Okay, here we go:

Gil Hodges - Sorry, folks, this one's a no-brainer. No logic, facts, or stats other than cruelty can justify why he isn't already in.

Stan Hack - Another one that I just don't understand. Is it just because he played for the Cubs? Great third baseman.

Riggs Stephenson - Crazy batting average, and wildly popular Cub, but punished for his weak, football-injury throwing arm.

Charlie Grimm - The Cubs list could go on and on. This man was a baseball ambassador, beyond being a great player, and yes, also manager of some very competitive, because of him, but not so great teams.

Cecil Travis - Great, versatile ballplayer for a dreadful Senators team, then suffered the misfortune of not just being in the Army during WW2, but suffering frostbite in combat during the Battle of the Bulge, which effectively wrecked his baseball playing career. And he was never bitter about it.

Those fellows above I feel quite strongly about. The fellows below get an "Honorable Mention" from me on the strength of crazy accomplishments:

Frankie Crosetti - Waved more men home while coaching at third than anyone in history, and player and coach on 23 World Series teams.

Johnny Vander Meer - If he never did another thing, he gets mention just for throwing 2 consecutive no-hitters. Just imagine someone doing that. Pete Rose said it best, "Someone might tie that someday, maybe, but no one will ever break it. No one is ever going to throw 3 consecutive no-hitters." Pete's obviously not going in, but I love him anyway.

Bucky Walters - Just didn't truly dominate as a pitcher long enough, but what a great story of his conversion from average third baseman to, for a few years, overwhelming pitcher at the hands of another guy you hear nothing about, Jimmy Wilson.

As I was reading down through these posts, I thought I should mention The Cobra. Glad someone beat me to it.

Steve Garvey is the poster child for what is wrong with WAR. All Garvey did was get hits drive in runs and win games. From 1974-1984 Garvey led his team to 5 National League Championships and 1 World Championship. He committed no errors for a whole season and supposedly had a negative dWAR. 10x AS, 4 GG, MVP and 2 x NLCS MVP. He is absolutely a HOFer.

For the first few years of his career Joe Mauer was considered a lock.

I will still say that Mauer is getting in. It is strictly because of what he did behind the plate. In the history of the game there have been a total of 6 Batting titles won by a catcher. Bubbles Hargrave, Ernie Lombardi x2, and Buster Posey all have one. All were National League Catchers. Mauer has 3 himself and is the only American League Catcher to accomplish this feat. His MVP Award, Silver Slugger Awards, and Gold Gloves all add to him being the best all-around Catcher of his time. His induction will likely be later in his candidacy, but he's going to go in on the basis of what he did behind the plate as he did things no other catcher had ever accomplished.

It is the Hall of FAME, not great. As a child of the 1970's and 80's, no baseball players were more famous than Garvey, Mattingly, and Murphy. They also had borderline great careers, but they were FAMOUS. Dave Parker also fits this category. Joe Carter.... decent career but only famous for 1 game.

As a midwest Cardinal fan, Garvey was famous, but became infamous for stealing the MVP from Lou Brock in 1974. Murphy was a 2 time MVP, and benefitted from the boom in cable TV, led by Ted Turner, owner of the Braves.
Mattingly, MVP and Yankee legend, back injuries slowed him down. Parker was an MVP, and famous for 2 great throws in an all star game, plus on one of the legendary teams, We Are Family 1979 Pirates.

If the 1984 Tigers had been able to sustain that greatness, rather than just that 1 magical year, I think Lou Whitaker (who should be in anyway, and Lance Parrish (not sure on him) would also be in.

I'd put these guys pictured in the HOF.

By Coincidence this article just came out today after I mentioned Delgado yesterday. Us canucks think alike lol. Make sure to check out Kevins blog hes fantastic
https://cooperstownersincanada.com/2...-huminatarian/

People always say that, and it IS the name…but it’s never been really true.

There are players who are “famous” who aren’t inducted, and players who aren’t famous are in.

“Fame” is subjective and changes - many players were famous in their time but are no longer.

I think the key is that sometimes it’s hard to know if a career is a hall of fame one until it’s over or almost over. Look at a guy like Adrian Beltre…10 years into his career, few thought he’d be a hall of famer. Now he’s a likely first ballot lock.

How about Schoolboy Rowe, Doc Cramer, Gary Sheffield, Todd Helton, Jim McCormick, Billy Pierce & Mickey Lolich?



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Roger Maris, strong argument could be made he still owns the single season`s (and possibly all sports) most historical number, 61.

Clemens and Bonds?

Its my understanding that over half the league is thought to have been using PEDs at the time, which MLB knew about but did nothing to stop. Pitchers faced hitters on PEDs, hitters faced pitchers on PEDs. MLB started serving suspensions for PED usage in 2005; Bonds & Clemens finished their careers playing 2005 and 2006 and 2007 (in their 40s) w/o a suspension. Both were SOOO dominant, their stats are just crazy. And they faced opponents who were also on PEDs.

How many years have pitchers been doctoring the ball with spider tack and other substances, which is against MLB rules, but was never stopped until now? None of the Astros lost their stats nor rings for cheating and many of those same coaches and players are still playing today. Many old timers, including HOFers, have admitted to (or been accused of) cheating in one way or another.

I was on the fence in the past, but am leaning towards induction for them both. Thoughts?

Vada Pinson was every bit as good as Clemente

Im very pro those guys and steroid era guys getting in but figured that would take this thread in a way different direction lol

Good article. I also wonder how Hodges would have performed in the pitcher's era of the 1960s.

https://halloffameindex.com/2019/09/...-vs-norm-cash/

Thank you Brad for presenting. In attempts to get my youngest boy into the stuff, Mauer was selected to go mining for; wax boxes of 2002 Topps, etc.
Opening packs with the ol' man! "Woo-Hoo!", whenever a Mauer was pulled.
Good Times; even bought him a Mauer jersey prior to our HOF Inductions at Cooperstown. Time passes and so does our focus; kinda lost track of Mauer's career. Thank you Brad.
Ben

Real question is, is the hall of fame a history of the greatest performers during there era, regardless of character flaws or the writers way to only elect players they enjoyed being around.
Should Integrity and humility really have a place in the hall? Or should it only be based on numbers. Does the era played truly get taken into account? If so, the steroid era is no different then any other era of baseball. All had rule breakers trying to get an advantage. Was steroids really much different then players intentionally fixing games, doctoring balls or belittling another player based on ethnicity? All, knowingly cheated or showed lack of integrityans can be easily found in the hall. If so, Rose, Bonds, Clemens, Schilling and McGwire all are deserving.

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What I was meaning to say above is there is a lot of players in the hall that have been accused of cheating and still got in.
So do all those players now get an asterisk?
Clemens and Bonds have denied their use. So if they get in, asterisk?
Or do we embrace the steroid era and accept that it was sort of baseballs fault for not dealing with it in the 90s. MLB teams will always push their players to push the boundaries of whats legal. Technology has just help expose the cheating in the game after it helped those players get an advantage.

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Of course. I don't know why I bother posting this every couple of years, but the best players of the 50s/60s/70s were using the best substances available to them at the time to enhance their performance, and so were the best players of the 80s/90s/2000s. There's no good reason to think that Bonds and Clemens wouldn't have used greenies if they had been born a generation earlier and no good reason to think that Aaron and Mays wouldn't have used "PEDs" (TM) if they had played a generation later. Being pleased that two of those guys are in the Hall and that the other two are not then is tantamount to endorsing discrimination on the basis of birth year, which is silly.

At the end of the day, the one guy not in that seems totally idiotic that he isn't is Gil Hodges. Go ahead and ignore this, and yack ad-nauseum or write a PhD dissertation about this guy, that guy, the other guy, whatever. The Hall of Fame has lost credibility big-time over the past few years over some really bad decisions, and you can't explain, ignore or deny it away. Perception is reality. I used to think I really wanted to visit Cooperstown, but as Dylan said, things have changed.