Ethics Question...OK or Crazy
 

Recently I bought 4 t205 and 2 t206 cards. One of the t205s was Hal Chase. In looking all these fellows up, I did not like what I read about Chase. He made Cicotte, Gandil, Weaver, et al, look like kindergarten. Not a very likeable guy at all. So I took that card and cut it up, and flushed it. I ask you, was that crazy? Have any of you gone and done something extreme like that? In putting my 53 Bowman color set together, I came across Solly Hemus and Enos Slaughter. I don't like those guys either, and the only reason I am keeping them is in order to have a complete set.

to each their own.

Personally, no, I would not do that if they were mine. But they are not and it does not matter.

Cheers,

I am not sure I understand cutting up the cards...if everyone did that, eventually their cards would increase in value and become even more sought after, which would seem to be counter to your motivation.

There are a number of players (and teams) whom I don’t collect, but I don’t trash their cards, I simply avoid buying them unless, as you suggest with your 50’s cards, I am building a set.

You have the right to do whatever you want with your stuff, but I am not sure creating more scarcity is a good way to de-emphasize a player’s cards.


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cvhase
 

Yes, I agree... Id cut it up and burn it..along with any other T cards of unsavory characters

Ty Cobb was a major jerk and not well liked as well. As such, feel free to give me all of your Cobb cards and I will make sure that you will never have to see that ass again.

Honus Wagner ate babies for lunch. It is a little known fact.......so.......Bring'em.

+1

Chase was certainly an unsavory character, but not sure why it compelled you to destroy the card. It's a picture of someone from 100+ years ago on a piece of cardboard after all. I'm guessing it must have given you some kind of catharsis. It is your card, so to each his own.

Nope. No. Never. I think your heart is in the right place but feels like destruction of a piece of history.

The question was OK or Crazy?
I vote for Crazy

Please in the future read up on players before you purchase vintage cards so as to avoid feeling like you have to destroy a piece of history to have peace of mind.

Brian

So what's next? You going to march off to burn some books?

And by the way, there are guys on N54 who actually COLLECT Hal Chase. I mean, they actively seek out his cards and photos and memorabilia, and pay money for them. Imagine that horror. This board is a freakin cesspool of maniac devil lovers!

Andrew Jackson wasn't very likeable. Do you burn all of your $20 bills? I can understand not wanting his card. Sell it or give it to someone else. Destroying cards that others collect is wrong.

LOVE the devil??? No, make a pact with the devil......it depends. :cool:

He that is without sin among you, let him be the first to cut up the cardboard.

I did it in a total loss of self-control over what a jerk this guy was, a total extreme over-reaction. All together, I paid $500 for 6 cards, none in pristine condition. Yes, I guess I should have sent the Chase card to someone who would want it. I now regret that I went all over the top and destroyed it. I won't ever do it again. Needless to say, I did not cut up Gabby Street, Jack Quinn or Art Fletcher.

So when do you plan on destroying example of like 400 other subjects in the T sets? The set is full of drunkards, thieves, racists, adulterers, and basically any other negative social namesake you can think of, sorry to burst whatever bubble you’ve been collecting in haha.

Guy cuts up card of a jerk but overlooks the dudes who fixed games on the reg and caused the biggest stain in the sports history? Laughable

Honestly the dumbest thing I’ve read in years if this isn’t a troll post.

Not a troll post, and I couldn't care any less what you think, Lefty. Who cares what you think. And I am not laughing.

You literally asked the internets judgements of your actions, therefore quite literally, you do care what people think....

+1

George Washington, Andrew Jackson, and Alexander Hamilton all have skeletons in their closets for things far worse than what Chase did, and I'm sure if we dug deep enough we could find something on Ben Franklin, Ulysses Grant and Abraham Lincoln as well. Anyone who doesn't want to look at their pictures is free to send me all their money, and I'll make sure they never have to see their likeness again. :D

You are right, I do care, just not you and your antagonistic, smug, condescending comments. That is my final word on it to you.

It was an act of bad judgement, irresponsible even. But it's done. I can't put the card back together again.

As a Relative of William T Sherman, burn ME! Collecting is hell

+1. I actually thought this was a joke thread at first. This might have been the stupidest thing I've ever read.

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How is this an ethics question?

Funny use of history. I'm a distant relative of his as well.

I wouldn't have cut up the card. Always remember to step back and cool off before making a decision stemming from anger.

You must be new to n54! Stick around

I vote crazy.

Nothing was gained with cutting it up.

Would you cut up and flush a T3 or any other card of Chase?

While I wouldn't cut up the card, I don't think this is a stupid thread. We've had this conversation about collecting cards of unsavory people. Quite often someone says, "I am collecting 1970 Topps fb, but I don't want to buy the OJ Simpson card...." As has been stated, there are other unsavory characters that some of us don't want in our collections.

Cutting up the card was poorly thought out, but wanting to feel consciously clean about collecting sports cards is perfectly fine.

Uhh, you don't need to dig very deep in regard to Franklin. He was reputedly quite the libertine during his time as ambassador to France.

Having said that, I don't get destroying a card.

I mean, do get not wanting to reward despicable characters. In terms of those that still alive, this would normally take the form of a boycott with the intent of not having your hard earned dollars ending up in their pocket. In terms of historical figures, like Chase or someone like Nathan Bedford Forrest, you obviously can't harm/withhold reward from them, but you can refuse to participate in their celebration and work to balance the hagiography with truth. Destroying a card being held in a private collection really doesn't do any of that. It just seems...performative.

+1. My thoughts exactly.

One must be careful of Presentism or the Nunc Pro Tunc fallacy where one does not depict the past in objective historical context but instead views history only through the lens of contemporary beliefs.

History should not be sugar coated nor vilified, it's history, it's what happened. You (not you) may have been a "worse" person than Mr. Chase if you were raised in his environment, one never knows.

Ty Cobb was salty as hell and not well liked, he was also raised in a pretty brutal environment, he also financed a Memorial Hospital in Georgia that is now part of the St. Mary's Healthcare System. He also helped a lot of teammates who were down on their luck. It's just history.

We learn from our past so we hopefully don't repeat the mistakes we may have made.

Call it what u will...but it was the op’s card so he can do whatever he wants with it.

For what it's worth, I love this "despicable" player, personally. I would have been happy to take that card and give it a living home. Reading the OP brought a tear to my eye.....

#FreeHalChasehttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...30eea19bc2.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...3e137b78a0.jpg


(I have no idea why these photos wont upload properly)

You better never invite the OP (jingram058) over for dinner.

Impulsive, that's what it was...

OK, because you owned it.

A bit of momentary craziness for cutting the card up...


I'm no fan of Kirby Puckett. I think the Hall should have never put him in. Numbers aren't strong enough, played to short a time, numbers he has are a bit skewed because of that trash bag ball park... and then there is the domestic violence. (And I know there are fanatical fans who adored his play and that ball park.) With that in mind, I just don't gather / collect KP cards. I understand that you didn't know about him until after you got the card.

So, I think that 'real crazy' would be to keep buying Chase cards so they could be cut up.


Maybe, next time, when you start hating on a player who's card you have, sell the card and then buy other cards or donate the card proceeds to a charity.

I think I've got an early OJ Simpson card, I have a Ben Chapman premium; I don't wanna cut them up. And I actually like Enos Slaughter, primarily because he was a Cardinal. He has stuff to say in When It Was A Game. I don't doubt that he didn't do a few things that would make me cringe today. Truly, we are all products of our times. Golly, I did stuff 55 years ago of which I'm not proud. I don't like to completely judge someone by the solitary one worst thing they ever did (maybe Chase did more that one thing). I think the better approach has such judgement being done with a totality of what a person has done.

Find an old time collector who knows the story about TCMA cards... Maybe it goes like this: Michael Aronstein collected ball cards and was wanting cards of old teams without spending a fortune. MA got some help from an uncle who had artistic skills. Then MA got together with Tom Collier, and the two of them would spend weekends going to card shows far and wide. They started producing cards, TCMA... They also collected and traded old cards. As the story might go, at one point the wife of one of them was fed up with her husband going to card shows on weekends instead of being with her. She knew her husband loved his cards. He returned home after a long weekend trip to find that his wife had dug out his valuable old cards and cut each card in half, leaving the halves laying on their bed... maybe.

Just didn't want anyone to not know about other ways cards could get cut, if a bit of momentary craziness sets in.

In my opinion, committing an intentionally outlandish act and then telling everyone here about it has nothing to do with ethics.

Ethics are defined by what one does when nobody else will know.

Well, for me there is some form of penitence in getting it off my chest, and to me, that is ethical. Nobody had to know, I just thought it was the right thing to do to get it out in the open on this forum. I don't really think I need to wallow in insults, though, but I guess that is how it is. And I will be honest, while I had heard of Hal Chase before buying these cards, I knew nothing of his wilful and open throwing of games.

That cards traveled and survived 110 years just for that ending? ugh

Hitler died in 1945. Okay

Chase died in 1947. Crazy

I doubt that I would have to think very long about whether to cut up a holocaust architect or a baseball player, and neither would feel my knife.

Consider therapy.

Hilarious thread!

Been messin with cards for 30+ years now and can honestly say that I have never purposely destroyed one - so my vote is for "crazy" on this one.

Possible "covid lockdown" temporary insanity?

I feel as though this entire thread lends itself nicely into a soliloquy on the current thought of today’s society and reverence of the past.

I actually destroyed a card once. I was 12. Was with my mom at the mall. Had just bought an '88 Donruss rack pack. And my mom dragged me to JCPenney as she quite literally tried on every blouse in the GD store. I was bored as hell and my hair was a mess. Being a pubescent pre-teen I was very self-conscious of my appearance so I took a card (I think it was either Juan Berenguer or Jeff Reardon), and tore little triangles out of one side. So I created my own makeshift '88 Donruss comb. Wish I still had that thing.

What is "the current thought of today's society" ?

Don't believe a word!!

It is yours to do with what you will. But collectibles are sort of a different artifact. I mean, if you collect old coins, or stamps, or old baseball cards, they have been owned and preserved by perhaps generations of collectors. We owe a debt, for example to all of the 8 and 10 year old boys who first collected and then preserved the early issues of cards from the nineteenth and early 20th century. To them, they must have held a special place in their memories, because they certainly (to a large extent), held on to them into their adult years.
I mean, people have stamps with Adolf Hitler pictured on them. If I felt that strongly about the person depicted, I would have auctioned it off to someone who (for whatever reason) collects Hal Chase, and then given the proceeds to your favorite charity. But that was me. And that probably sounds like moralizing. But you asked...

Yes, it was clearly a stupid thing to do. But it's off my chest, and I won't do anything like that again.

And now, on a positive note, my daughter asked me what I would like for Father's Day. Yes, I do have other t201, t202, t205, t206 cards and even an n284 Buchner Gold Coin card. No, I did not cut them up. Not enough to start an album with, but I saw an empty cigarette box on eBay from 1909. Perfect for storing my small stash of tobacco cards.

Why not do research on the players first and not make the purchase instead of cutting up a 110 year old card? This problem you might have going forward is that the majority of ball players and those in the Hall of fame might not be people you would want to have a beer with if you knew what they've done on or off a field. Reading this post I felt crazy; I've never heard of such a thing, and what's more, why are you judging someone of another era to today's standards?

Hal Chase is permanently banned from the Hall of Fame and for good reason, but he's still a significant player in the history of the game. I would read more on the players and probably start with "The Glory of Their Times: The Story of the Early Days of Baseball Told by the Men Who Played It" by Lawrence Ritter. Hope you dont do that with a Ruth, Cobb or Ted Williams?

That’s sounds like a great way to store them!!


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Ted I had no idea your relatives were John and William T? Very cool! I just read John Sherman's two volume autobiography for my articles on him - a very interesting and equally historically important guy, especially in the rarity of tobacco cards.

When I was in High School in 1981 I remember a local here in CT burned a 1952 Topps Mantle in protest of the Baseball Strike..

This reminds me, at a high level of generality, of the ivory destruction debate—except the stakes are much lower. Given the exceedingly low ethical stakes, I think destroying T205 Chases is just plain bats**t crazy. But I also respect the rights of the property owner to dispose of property as he/she pleases.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Destruction_of_ivory

Good thread
 

Maybe a little tough literal topic about intentionally ruining a card.
If it wasn’t posted on cardboard lovers site , it may have gone in a different direction.

The physical aspect aside from the OP, it’s a good question about the “feelings” you get about the players depicted on the cards.
I’m pretty sure that’s why ALL of us are here.

If you read a story about a hero, you might feel compelled to buy a card of that hero.
If you read a story about a heel, you can decide to NOT collect that guy. Or if your own OCD would allow you a set missing that miscreant. (Mine doesn’t)

To each his own. I’m glad this thread was started and while I can’t condone ruining a card , I understand the intentions.

Phil made an excellent comment about history. It is what it is. (And absolutely is way more complicated than we’ve learned in truncated articles and text books)
We are collecting history! Pretty darn cool IMHO!

And the current "cancel culture."

Tales grow tall over time, especially those of famous folks. And especially after death; have to spice it up.

IN MY OPINION

Presented, without commentary https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...ca1059f317.jpg

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I think they have therapy for those type of anger issues. :)

I'm of the school of thought that we should never get too close to baseball players or heroes in general. I am interested in baseball cards because of what the players did on the field. The backstory from there becomes much less important to me. If you don't approach collecting with this type of attitude, that's fine - but you have to remember that players are human beings just like the rest of us and in that regard, many come down way more on the sinner side than saint. Mickey Mantle boozed it up and cheated on his wife. Willie Mays is well known to be less than cordial when at card shows with adoring fans who have spent hours in line waiting to interact with him for about 15 seconds. Then you have the other big name athletes who are almost more famous for something they did off the field - included here would be the likes of O.J. Simpson and Pete Rose.

I guess you just have to determine what does and does not bother you. I don't need to agree with every waking minute of a player's conduct off the field in order to collect baseball cards. Were that the case, I'd probably need to go get rid of 2/3 of my collection. I will admit I don't like Barry Bonds, but I still have tons of his cards.

PS - one of my main boyhood heroes - Ryne Sandberg of the Cubs - is now endorsing cannabis products and marijuana derivatives. The jokes about Ryno the pothead have already made their first waves on the interwebs. Am I suddenly supposed to rip up his cards and give this newest turn of direction precedence over the fact that he's one of the greatest second basemen of all time? I mean, I could. But I'm not going to.

...and don't get me started on that Ruth guy




.

No.

You're supposed to take the card, cut it up, and flush it.

:cool:

The next time I go into an extreme over-reaction over a card, I hereby promise I won't cut it up and flush it, or otherwise destroy it, rather, I will offer it up via this forum. If it hppens, I will probably just give it away, free. Fair enough? I seriously do not think it will ever happen again, however.

As a counterpoint to my sometimes annoying brand of humor, allow me to offer this:

Most of us have done something asinine with at least a few of our cards. Whether or not they'l admit it, at some point in their lives, Net54 board members have destroyed cards in bicycle spokes, lit them on fire (I haven't done that in a while...I swear) or thrown them away.

And yes, some people have torn or cut them up. Occasionally, it happens by accident when opening an envelope. Other times, the act is purposeful. I imagine more than a few Barry Bonds cards got destroyed on August 7, 2007. As an aside, the board would likely have cheered and given you a round of applause if you flushed cardboard depicting the "home run king."

Your post likely struck a chord with people because the card was a player many of us collect...from a set that many of us collect. In my humble opinion, it was rather like watching someone light their cigar with a hundred dollar bill.

We have all made mistakes, me more than most. Count it as a lesson learned and move on. It won't be in your top 100 mistakes you ever make. Not a big deal. Happy Collecting....just don't buy anymore Chase cards :)

.https://luckeycards.com/t332.jpg

I like tacos

I think it's probably best not to destroy cards. I would suggest looking into players before buying and then not buying cards you don't want as an alternative.

Definitely crazy, possibly but probably not unethical. If you do decide to destroy more cards, Marcell Ozuna wouldn't be a bad choice IMO.

When I first joined here, there was a thread where a member asked about burning a T206. Someone said they’d be ok with it if there was something gained from it, like burning an original and a reprint to observe the differences in the flame color, which can tell you what materials were used in the inks. I can’t find it now, but I thought it was an interesting take.

What exactly did the guy do? I haven't heard of too many OJ rookies being shredded. Was he worse than that?

He was frequently accused of working with gamblers and deliberately tanking plays for personal profit.

Here's a SABR article on Chase. It's bound to be intersting when the opening sentence is, "Hal Chase, whose big league career lasted from 1905 to 1919, was the most notoriously corrupt player in baseball history."

https://sabr.org/bioproj/person/hal-chase/

Let's not be too harsh now Leon...
-

C. Stupid

Hal Chase was a damn fine ballplayer, led the league in hitting once, damn fine ballplayer !

Redlegs manager Christy Mathewson wasn't happy with Chase as a player for the Redlegs... yet Mathewson didn't cut him into little pieces or cut him from the team.

On the other hand, at least cutting up that card took some passion. Card collectors with a bit of energy about these old cards can be a good thing!

An odd aspect of The Monster that surprised me was that I'd be hunting for a certain card, looking and looking (and lots of that looking pre-eBay), and there was an excitement in the hunt. And a bit more of excitement opening the mail. But then the card would go in a binder, box, envelope or stack, and that card was forgotten; all because some new yet attained card would become the target of the next search. The Monster's size exacerbates that.

Light up a Sandberg rookie, inhale deeply, and see what happens!

Life is simpler for those of us who don't feel compelled to scrutinize other peoples' lives for the purpose of passing judgement. Especially people who are dead.

I wouldn't want Hal Chase as a business partner or drinking buddy but I have some cards with him on them. He's part of history.

A property may do what they want with their property.

I do not think it reasonable to destroy a card for this reason.

I do not see how one can collect cards of this era, know who Chase is to buy a card, and not know he was corrupt. It's one of the most commonly written about things of c. 1910 baseball, that Hal Chase pretty openly and continuously rigged his play and games.

But, I also don't get why baseball collectors specifically go after generally bad people and pay a premium for that fact. Chick Gandil had a 103 OPS+, about a league average bat at first base. He sells for more than some hall of famers, purely because he did a very bad thing. Eddie Cicotte and Vic Willis are very, very similar pitchers statistically. One cheated and was banned, one made the Hall. Vic sells for quite a bit less than the bad boy. Immorality seems to generally make people more interested in that players cards, not less. I'd subscribe it to "any name recognition influences value", except that the bad boys often outsell clean hall of famers with similar name recognition. I do not get this, but I don't get a lot of things.

What you have to ask yourself is, what would Jesus do?

https://i.ibb.co/0JhM5Zz/jesus-chase.jpg

Turn the Chase into a Cobb and sell it on eBay.

I'm going to vote "not crazy."

I work mostly with books and photos, not cards, and I have definitely avoided owning some kinds of objectionable or offensive things and, occasionally, destroyed or thrown them away when they showed up in lots or collections. Even when there was money to be made.

We don't talk a lot about the karma that objects have, but that's kind of why we are all here, right? (Right!) And if you think some object has bad karma, you should do something about it.

I had not thought about that in relation to cards until now, but you learn something new every day.