The Rosen '52 find
 

Leon, feel free to move this thread, I was wondering why the Mantles that were graded never had a pedigree to that find?
Thanks,
John

PSA wasn't really doing that at the time, i think the first pedigree might have been the burdick collection, i could be wrong.

Rosen Bought and Sold Quickly
 

The late Al Rosen was definitely NOT a collector like Mr. Burdick and Mr. Copeland.
I just pulled out his "True Mint," written in 1994. Here's a paragraph I thought you would get a kick out of (from page 33):
"I placed an advertisement in SCD [in 1986] trying to sell the [1952] Mantles for $3500 each, perfectly centered gem mint cards...I didn't sell any Mantles at that price. I was crushed. So I started blowing them out and most of them I sold to dealers for $2000 each. The last 10 I sold to John Broggi of JKJ Sports Collectibles. He paid me $12,500 for 10 of them."
For Rosen it was all about making deals and money. That's not a knock, by the way. Just the way he was.
As you know, today Broggi runs the National.
Times have changed, right?

Rosen find
 

whole runs of high numbers were offered for $12000....I passed as it was a lot for my family back then....and no, not all of the 52 Mantles were centered...still an exciting find as was the 1953 Topps cards #1-86 a few years later from a Canadian dealer (case of wax boxes opened, packs opened)...I did get a couple Mantles and Robinsons from that find.......I had called the dealer about an ad in SCD, and he just happened to mention he had these 53 Topps....years later (1996) I got one each of the Mantles and Robinsons graded, they both received 9's...the Mantle was the last one to get a 9 until 2016....Bruce Perry

I remember the Rosen find and laughing at his asking price. Someone please find me a time machine....quick....

Instead of going back to 1986, I hope you'd go back to 1952 instead. :D

Yep. Stand by the Hudson River and wait for Sy Berger to come along on his forklift.

Where's my Delorean?

Rosen Find
 

I too remember the Rosen find. Seeing his ad in SCD, I immediately called Him to see if he would sell me one of each Phillies and As cards, he did. Then he said he still had one complete set left. I could have it for $12,000. I had 3 children under 8 hrs old and a stay at home wife who would have killed me. I thought about it and passed. Just one of many bad card collecting decisions in my past.

1952 Choices
 

...http://imagehost.vendio.com/a/204295...WHITEY_NEW.JPG



....Late September , early October , 1952 : ......you could buy three "FIVE CENTS " packs of those high number last series 1952 Topps Baseball Gum Cards or...... one of these...



....

Are there any pictures of the find? Not individual cards but the big lot before being broken up?

The Quick Answer Is No
 

I just pulled out "True Mint" again. In the section about the 1952 Topps find you will find a gem mint Mantle photo and a gem mint Leo Durocher photo. In black and white. That's it. Rosen describes the guy with all the cards in Quincy, Mass., coming out with them on a big silver tray, "covered with cards piled high, 15 or 20 piles. I remember the cards were piled so high that I couldn't see over the top."
Unfortunately Rosen didn't expect to see this so he didn't bring a camera. As he tells it, all he cared about was the Mantles.
The book is definitely worth a read and I am sure you can pick it up pretty cheap on Amazon. He tells some amazing stories. Good luck and peace.

In case you haven't seen this?
https://www.psacard.com/articles/art...-baseball-find

And another Net54 thread about the find here.
https://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=276271

Thanks. Yes, I'd seen those. Great stuff but not quite what I was hoping for. Perhaps not surprising that a guy with no sense of sentiment didn't record anything for posterity.

1952 topps find interview
 

If you haven't seen this interview

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rjckQNXP4Gs

I’ve heard the story countless times, but I just watch the YouTube video. Can somebody clarify when Al Rosen said he paid the guy 10% instead of 20%... was that 10% of book value? If so, that’s insane.

I think I recall Rosen saying in an interview that he sells cards because he can make money doing it. That if he could sell apples and make a huge profit, he would sell apples. So you're right, he had no "feelings" for the hobby other than as a way to make money.

Beckett #8 from 1986 page 267, it lists the 1952 Mickey Mantle high book at $2,900, middle $900, and low book at $250.

the rosen '52 find
 

I also remember the Rosen '52 find. Paul Lewicki , a card dealer and associate of Rosen, called me and offered the high number run for $12,000. I asked him what the Mantle was like. He said off-center and so I passed. I also think that find may have included 251 through 310, the semi-high series. The find that I remember more vividly was the Kansas City find of September 1985. This find i think included the last series 181-252 of 1950 Bowmans, 1951 Bowmans, 1952 Bowmans, 1953 Bowmans, 1952 Topps and maybe 1953 Topps. I happened to be visiting New Jersey at the time ( I live in California) and called John Broggi who I met at the 1985 National in Anaheim. He said " you would not believe what I got". I drove right down to his shop in Highland Park and I bought some beautiful 1952 Topps and 1953 Bowmans and eventually bought many 1951 Bowmans. I do not remember whether the find included high number 1952 Topps. Those were the days. Frank Martorana

John Broggi / JKJ Sports Collectibles
 

When I was a kid, I bought all of my cards from John Broggi. From his store in Highland Park as well as his booth on the Rt 1 Flea Market in New Brunswick NJ. Memories.

John Broggi / JKJ Sports Collectibles
 

My first "real" card I bought from John was a 1964 Topps Rose at his booth in the flea market. I paid $19...early 80's...when I showed my mother what I bought and how much I paid she flipped out! I said "I'm simply traded paper (money) for cardboard"...always the salesman. Anyway, my Mom walked me over to John's booth and kind of layed into him, thinking he took advantage of a kid. He convinced her what I bought was a good purchase and that the value would "double" in 6 months. It did! Sold that card and the rest of my collection when I went to college and used the proceeds to buy my first car. Now I'm in the process of buying all of those cards back (at the price of a house) as a mid 50's adult. Funny how things come full circle. Wonder how Broggi is doing these days.

If you're going to do that, you need to go back to 1960 or so because that's when he dumped the unsold '52s.

John is doing just fine as co-promoter of the NSCC (National).

Rich

Always best to go back in time before cards get all moist.

Brian (time travelling back right now to hopefully score some Cracker Jack cards before their contact with caramel)

I NEVER get tired of reading about Rosen and "the find." This is such a fascinating subject!

I was only two-years-old when all of this took place. But if I had been a grown man, and Rosen had offered me a NM set, I would have probably declined too because I am a cheap SOB.

By the way, how many books and articles did Rosen write and which one is the best to read?

Yeah, me too. I turned down a beautiful 1952 Mantle at $1000. I just couldn't imagine spending that much on one card!:eek:

Rosen Wrote Two Books
 

The first was "Mr. Mint's Guide to Investing in Baseball Cards."
The second was "True Mint."
I read them both YEARS ago.
Rosen was not an article writer, I assure you.
Of the two books I would go with "True Mint" because he tells about 25 stories focusing on his finds. Some of them are amazing/wild. The second half of the book is a ranking of hard to collect Topps sets (in terms of condition) and pricing (outdated, obviously). It was written in 1994 BUT still is worth buying on Amazon for the stories of his finds and the quirky people/travel adventures he had back in the 1980s.
Good luck.

He handled that better than I would've at the time. Once when I was set up at a show during the junk wax era, a kid (maybe 12) walked up with his mother and asked me a price on something in a 25% off Beckett box, which I quoted him without having to look it up.

Mom drags him away saying something like "don't believe that cause people will tell you anything" (practically to my face). I respond with a dagger glare and hold out the current Beckett, telling her she's more than welcome to check what I said. That was ignored and they walked on.

Obviously you need to teach kids to avoid getting screwed over, but that message of simply "the salesman is a POS and must be lying" is horrible, lazy parenting on many levels. Show your kids how to figure out what's good and what isn't, instead of always assuming the worst.

Mr mint was at one of the shows I helped work. I was at a table about 12 ft away and got to watch him work.

Just not my kind of guy, all hype and puffery. He did know his cards though.

Rosen was at a show in St. Louis manning a table. When I walked up he asked me what I was looking for and I told him I needed one card to finish a mint '62 Topps set. The term "near mint" hadn't been coined yet. I knew the types of cards he handled and knew he certainly wouldn't have the 7th series checklist I needed. To this day I'm still astonished by what happened next. He reaches behind him and pulls out a box filled with nothing but '62 Topps 7th series checklists, all in perfect condition. It was like a magic act. Why he had about 100 of that card, the only card I was hunting for that day, is still bewildering. I have other stories about some of his shenanigans at St. Louis shows, but the checklist story I had to share.

mint
 

yea, lotta storys about Rosen...

He insisted his table was the first one that customers saw as they walked into big shows

He made a big stink when one promoter didnt give him the the " best table"

He threatened ..and various time ..never to to a show again...never to set up at " so and so's" shows, etc..

I remember the time I called him to sell stuff...left a message....he called me back later...and to annoy him, I pretended I didnt know who he was ! LOL. I kept saying loudly " Who ? , Mr. What ? " !!

So are there any written accounts of the Kansas City find like there are the Rosen find? I’ve heard of it, but really don’t know the particulars.

Thanks, Mark! I will look for TRUE MINT!

And keep the stories coming!

I used to buy cards from a guy who told me that exact story about those checklists-Don Burnett- said Rosen was walking around that show with a briefcase and someone asked him what was in it and he opened it to show the mint checklists.

the rosen '52 find
 

It happened in September of 1985. John Broggi and few other East Coast dealers split the find. As I said in my previous post I was visiting New Jersey and called Broggi and he said just that he just returned from Kansas City with some beautiful early 1950s Topps and Bowmans. Evidently some collector had preserved them well. When I visited Broggi about an hour after the call, he was just unpacking them. They were in a large metal briefcase tightly packed. I purchased some beautiful low numbered 52 Topps, i.e., Spahn, Snider, Hodges, Roberts and Feller ( second series) and also some beautiful 1953 Bowmans. I do not think that he had any high number 1952 Topps or high number 1953 Bowmans, but I think that was because of the way the dealers split the find. I know that there were 1951 Bowmans in the find because I purchased some directly from Broggi in two groups of 30 common cards for $89 each. In January 1986 , I purchased over 200 1951 Bowmans at a card show in Sacramento. The dealer said that they came from the find. They
were all beautiful cards. If you further interest contact Broggi he is a co-director of the National. I am sure that he will remember the find.

Being at the front/first table was the least promoters could do for having the show advertised by him for several weeks or months in major hobby publications.

Rosen at Philly Show?
 

I don't remember Rosen being set up at Philly shows, and I wonder if he might have gotten into a fight at some point with Bob Schmierer, legendary promoter of those, who could also be prickly to deal with.

He did set up at shows at the Philly show (at the Ft. Washington Expo Center).

Does anyone remember "Find II" which happened shortly after the 1952 find? The Paris, TN find of unopened boxes of 1954 and 1955 Topps baseball, 1954 and 1955 Bowman baseball and 1954 and 1955 Bowman football. Apparently there were over 500 unopened boxes of the baseball, and 250 unopened boxes of the football.

I remember seeing photos in a magazine during the era with stacks of the boxes shown as found. Anyone remember what publication this was??

In the Nov 20, 1987 issue of SCD, Rosen was offering;

- 1954 Bowman baseball unopened packs for $125.00 each or $2500.00 per box (24 5 cent packs)
- 1955 Bowman baseball unopened packs for $150.00 each or $3000.00 per box (24 5 cent packs)
- 1955 Topps baseball unopened packs for $200.00 each or $3500.00 per box (24 5 cent packs)
- 1954 Bowman football unopened packs for $10.00 each or $1000.00 per box (120 1 cent packs)
- 1954 Bowman football unopened packs for $20.00 each or $425.00 per box (24 5 cent packs)

Wow! I would love to see those pictures for sure

IIRC -- He also got some 1960 Packs in that deal. I know I opened a few of those packs at that time.

Rich

A majority of the boxes had bugs and were either opened or thrown away

Also wasn't there significant moisture damage to alot of the packs?

Rosen was definitely at Ft. Washington. He also setup at some of the shows at Oaks that were competing with the Philly Show. Just a guess, but that may have been the catalyst for why he stopped setting up at Philly.

Funny I remember him just about everywhere else, but not at Ft. Washington/Reading for some reason even though I did those shows. Did he have the first table there?

In Tennessee, if I recall?

I remember reading about the unopened Bowman boxes when they were found, and then later hearing that many were damaged by bugs. They said that some packs were opened but the cards were ruined, even though there wasn't any obvious bug damage. I don't remember ever seeing any mint cards being shown off that were pulled from those packs.

Ha! I have almost that exact story. At the Durham Fair, probably 1983, I bought a VGEX 64 Mantle for $23 and my Mom thought I lost my mind.

Sent from my SM-S928U using Tapatalk

Don't forget the Hall T206 collection. I'm still looking for my catalog on that one because it's humorous to see a lot of the grades those cards received. I mean, I'd have avoided creating that catalog because it's like a book on how bad PSA was with their grading for that collection and shows just how crappy TPGs are. Many of those cards are OBVIOUSLY trimmed. I wish some of my cards received the generous grading those cards got.

Agree that was the motivation

There are a lot of people in the hobby only collecting greenbacks. And I am not talking Diamond Stars!

As far as pedigrees on slabs, only when it makes sense. I was asked if I wanted my collection slabs pedigreed, when I sold it. I said hell no....

.

& a bunch had moisture stains as well

Many years ago a friend bought a '54 Bowman Football pack on the cheap
& wanted to open it for kicks.

Every card was damaged, but the pack incl Otto Graham
I seemed more impressed then him, so he sold me the opened pack
& a few years later had SGC grade the 3 best cards.

& Yes! I still have 'em

https://www.qualitycards.com/pictures/1351339020.jpg
https://www.qualitycards.com/pictures/1351339011.jpg

Here's the Otto

https://www.qualitycards.com/pictures/1301139011.jpg

Paris Tennessee to be exact.

Many of the people who opened the packs did get sick for a while after opening them. But it was a kick to open some of those packs back in the day.

Rich

A 20th century urban myth circulated by those trying to talk up the price of their cards from the last series of 1952 Topps Baseball. Check out Toppcat's analysis here:

Highly Doubtful - Topps Archives

:rolleyes:

Did they eat the gum?

:confused:

And I shall talk about Diamond Stars.

To me it always seemed the 1934 Diamond Stars green backs, which are card #'s 1 through 24 that have both a 1934 copyright date AND 1933 stats (with the exception of the #7 card of Lew Fonseca, which can be identified as a 1934 release instead of 1935 based upon his age listed in the biographical text - '34 years old' vs. '35 years old').

These 24 1934 cards have always seemed to me to be a little tougher to come by in comparison to the 1935 green back versions of cards 1 to 24.

Only nine cards in the set were issued in all three years (card numbers 2, 4, 5, 8, 9, 10, 12, 16 and 22). Shown below are the three back versions for card # 4 Buddy Myer:

Attachment 636942
Attachment 636943

Cards shown on left are 1934 issued, in center 1935 issued, and 1936 on right.


Brian (as it relates to apples to oranges comparisons, tangents are my favorite fruit when it comes to collecting info to share)

And the Grim Reaper was right there, hovering and waiting, ready to post about their demise.

It was the salmon mousse.

My own experience in that regard hasn't been very good. Back in 2005 or so I opened a pack of 1960 Topps Funny Valentines A cards which I'd bought for the wrapper:

https://hosting.photobucket.com/albu...ps6aeac5ee.jpg

I then ate the gum. It was crumbly and there was a bit of bitterness to it as well as the sweetness. Overall it wasn't very good.

:(

OMG! Better you than me. You chewed the gum, right, you didn't actually eat it?

Yeah I just chewed it. But it was so crumbly that only a tiny amount remained to chew after thirty seconds or so.

:(

A law of physics says that matter can be converted into energy, but it cannot simply be lost. So somehow, in some way, your body must've absorbed that substance which was once gum.

I operate under the same premise upon which vaccines are based. Whatever doesn't kill me makes me stronger!

https://hosting.photobucket.com/albu...anT-shirt2.jpg https://hosting.photobucket.com/albu...Shirt2Back.jpg

The above shots were taken after I chewed the gum.

;)

You are braver than I am. I don't even like stale potato chips.

Who can ever forget the gum we got in the packs with all of the powdered sugar on them!
.

That works great until it doesn't! Love the shirt!

Wasn't bad, never threw it away, but not up to Super Bubble or Bazooka, my favorites.

I still dream of it! The best gum of them all though was in Parkies/Zip Hockey:

1960-61

https://hosting.photobucket.com/imag...st_1960-61.png

1961-62

https://hosting.photobucket.com/imag...st_1961-62.png

1962-63

https://hosting.photobucket.com/imag...st_1962-63.png

1963-64

https://hosting.photobucket.com/imag...st_1963-64.png

https://hosting.photobucket.com/albu...psfc51d45c.jpg

The Zip gum in the Parkhurst packs was thicker and in only one section. But it was juicier than that in Topps packs and had a luscious cherry(?) flavour. Any 70+ Canadian boy will confirm that it was the best!

Zip Bubble Gum was evidently also sold in penny twists:

https://hosting.photobucket.com/imag...d53e4e_mv2.jpg

I never saw Zip in my neck of the woods though. London was O-Pee-Chee country and Fleer Dubble Bubble was the only penny gum that offered a challenge to Bazooka's hegemony.

:(

It was one of the five Grateful Dead inspired/sanctioned T-shirts that I bought at the Atlanta Olympics in 1996. Here are a couple more:

https://hosting.photobucket.com/albu...ayT-shirt3.jpg https://hosting.photobucket.com/albu...shirt3back.jpg

https://hosting.photobucket.com/albu...ayT-shirt5.jpg

The T-shirts were symbolic of Lithuania rising from the dead of Soviet rule as a country.

:cool:

On a trip to Cape Cod in 1990, a small shop in Hyannis had a box of 1978 OPC baseball for $3/pack. I bought a couple and dared to taste the gum. It was completely brittle. If I recall, it wasn't chewable as gum should be, but rather crumbled and maybe even fizzed a bit on the tongue, which prompted immediate expectoration. (Two Eddie Murray RCs, two Roses and a Nolan Ryan, in case you were wondering. Still have them, too.)

Don't recall Zip bubble gum at all but, I assume, it was gone by the way side by the time I was old enough to chew it?
Always looked forward to the bubble gum in OPC packs, and boy, did I chew a pile of it.

Were you old enough to buy the Monkees card issues or the 1967 Philadelphia Gum Super Hero Stickers? These were produced and distributed in Canada by Grant Products to which Parkhurst had been renamed in November 1963 and contained Zip gum.

https://hosting.photobucket.com/imag...o_Stickers.png (Not mine.)

Moreover as late as 1972 the Canadian wrapper of the Horrible Horoscopes cards featured a Zip Bubble Gum side ad:

https://hosting.photobucket.com/imag...69ca48_mv2.png (Not mine.)

Zip Bubble Gum must therefore have been sold somewhere into the 1970's though I don't remember ever seeing it.

Here's Bobby Burrell's excellent account of the history of Parkhurst:

Parkhurst Products; Bobby Burrell - Hobby News Daily

:cool:

I respect your humble decision Leon, but you did amass one of the greatest type collections ever, certainly worthy of a "Leon Luckey" label.

It probably would have devalued the cards. :D:eek::cool:

I was only 3 in 67 so no, I wasn't old enough. I remember the Monkees cards, and I believe I had a few, but that's about all I can remember of those. Might have just accumulated them too rather than having purchased them?

---------Delete----

I don’t buy the Berger’s 52 Topps river dumping story. More like CCC (had Topps connections) bought the leftover 52 inventory (including uncut sheets), had them cut, & sold what they were able to over the next 10-15 years. Then their 1975 fire warehouse fire wiped out some real treasures including their hoard of 71 Greatest Moments test cards.

According to lore, rumors, etc… going back to the 1980s (when I collected as a kid), word had it Rosen & others came across uncut & large bordered 52 Topps 5th & 6th series sheets in addition to the 1986 52 find. Had them cut from sheets / trimmed & sold them. In my opinion, this is likely were many of today’s high grade 52 Topps 5th & 6th series originated from.

Please note everything typed in this post is my opinion & pure speculation .

https://www.thetoppsarchives.com/202...btful.html?m=1

http://www.thetoppsarchives.com/2020...money.html?m=0

IIRC, There are period photos which show the packs the cards came from. Not sheets but "cello" type packs.

Rich

I'm with you there. I'm not buying the river dump story either

Neither does Toppcat.

:)