Sad State of the Hobby
 

I'm a night owl, and so late last night somebody on eBay put up a nice set of cards with a $2,000 US BIN. It was a very good deal. These cards were in great condition and if they had graded high, then I would have doubled my money - maybe tripled. I did send the seller a message prior to heading to bed and he thanked me for my purchase. The following morning (today), he cancelled the order and refunded me my money. He told me his daughter spilled a drink on them. And just to show you how dumb this guy is, he immediately re-listed the cards for $9,000 US with best offer and it sold quickly (according to Slabwatch - $3,200 USD).

I told this guy that if he had wanted more money, then all he had to do was ask. And yes, I negged his a** as well. I looked him up on Facebook too. He is a young father with a baby daughter and I am not going to post his name, nor will I post his eBay ID. He doesn't deal much on eBay, and so you people don't need to worry about anything here.

Now, I love seeing the hobby on fire. I own many cards and I love selling at a profit. However, when things like this start happening, it can be hard to enjoy it. It's just so sad how people can step on each other's toes, and how sellers can back out or even blame their own children for their own mistakes.

Yes...I think this is why most serious collectors don't deal with ebay/facebook. There is way too much bullshit that goes on!

So you were about to get something woefully undervalued by the seller, who does very little business selling cards, under priced perhaps as much as 300%, and then someone got to the seller, told him he was making a serious mistake, and then he turns around and pulled the rug out from under you with a bullshit story. And then you do detective work, find out who he and his kids are, and then agree not to out him, a young father with a baby.

I don't know dude, I think I would just move on at this point. Not sure your coming out of this looking a whole lot better at this point than him. A nasty email message, sure. Going beyond that for personal information about his life seems a bridge too far.

I got the old "Out of Stock" trick pulled on me late last week with a Mantle card from a seller who is somewhat well known, and also a prominent member of the YouTube community. It took some time, but I eventually got a story that may or may not be true on why my order was cancelled nearly 3 days after I had paid. Regrettable, but all too common in today's hobby. I was pretty steamed about it, whether it was really the guy's fault or not.

This is one reason I slowed down a bit buying, and just trying to be slow with what I still have left before shows come back. I feel that I have been priced out on many cards, all years modern and vintage. I agree I am still looking for the best deal and when something comes along and you cannot finish the transaction it can be tough. Good luck with the next one you find, there is always more stuff! just move on

Jimmy

+1
Isn't that the truth.

One of my favorite lines is from the Flim Flam Man. Someone asks George C. Scott what a flim flam is and he tells him "Son, that's when a man with experience meets a man with money. The man with the experience gets the money and the man with the money gets the experience."

There are a lot of inexperienced people out in the market right now. Some are selling too low and others are buying way too high. Although this story ended with the seller getting a fair price, he gave up some of his integrity to get there, which is an expensive lesson on its own.

Thanks for your stupid comments, Steve.

He did all this for $1,200 USD, that's right, $1,200 USD. If he wanted more money, then all he had to do was ask (and I would have done it!) Some people would have outed him and even reported him to eBay, but I did neither, so I don't know what the hell you're talking about.

I like how all of this bs is supposedly new. Bad deals date back long before any of us mouth breathers were around.. The online voyeurism is the sad truth of it all. I had a terrible interaction with a seller on ebay thats widely respected on this forum about a month ago and then a really honest and respectful transaction with a new seller today. Good days and bad just like always. Honesty would have been preferred so I agree with the OP on that. But, scouting the dude out over baseball cards.........

I'm sorry this is happening to you.

What's wrong with looking people up on Facebook? I always like to know who is on the other end, that's all.

Now if I had sent him a message on Facebook and said something like "hey punk, I found you! I am gonna' get you now!" then yes, that would be a different story! LOL!

At least he didn't shill them up

Could be that I just don't get it. This forum is the only online social interaction I have. I'm not conditioned to it. I realize that I'm in the minority for not having an FB or IG. Could be totally normal and I'm wrong. I guess if you put yourself out there you're subject to being looked at.

Agree. I do not participate in that type of social media either. But those who do need to know they are subjecting themselves to the world (for better or for worse).

This is happening a lot on ebay right now. Prices are going up so fast, that sellers are literally leaving money on the table the day after they sell so they are cancelling sales. craziness

The purchase I made today was literally top end for the card bit not over priced and even an offer within 5% wasn't accepted. Realistically, had it not been a bin it would have auctioned for more. I get the fear of starting auctions low, but from what I'm seeing it's a pretty safe bet. Better than letting cards rot at high bins too because you get the bidding war and last minute impulse bids on auctions.

I had won and paid for a 1964 topps Aaron for the set I am working on. Things were fine until Mr. Aaron dies and then all of the sudden I get a message saying he can't find the card and must have sold it.
My money was refunded. Cost me almost double to get another and not in as nice of shape. This was a rather large seller with 100% feedback. Maybe he was telling the truth but it stunk for me either way.

The seller was wrong but maybe more financially desperate than you know. Seems like you have a sense of this, which is why you are not outing the seller. We are all pressed to make decisions, you know. Like Thursday, was at my office and coming out to the parking afterwards I saw a homeless guy making himself at home in one of the parking stalls for the night. Technically, i should have alerted security to roust him out of there. It was in the forties and rainy all night so I let it be. Just didn't have the stomach to turn the guy out into the rain.

People who do not know what they are selling should not sell without doing their homework. If they do I have no sympathy for them, but I do understand the impulse to correct a mistake like that. $2K on a $3200 item is not shockingly low; if it happened to me I'd be pissed, but if the seller was a newbie or clueless or seemed to be in financial straits I maybe wouldn't look on a chat board to commiserate either.

$1200 could certainly mean a lot to many people these days. Especially if this guy is out if work and selling these cards to make ends meet. Obviously the honorable thing to do (aside from honoring the original agreement) would have been to admit he priced it too low and offer it to you for what he was willing to accept.

I'm not sure one isolated incident from someone who is obviously not part of our hobby has anything to do with the overall state of the hobby as the OP suggests.

I don’t do any social media for this very reason. The idea of some card seller/buyer checking out pictures of me at my son’s first birthday party and me and my wife in Cancun on our wedding anniversary because an eBay transaction went bust gives me the willies. But maybe I’m old school in that regard.
I’ve had people on eBay in the last few months dick me around over paying for an $8 card. At a certain point I just tell myself they must be having a tough time of things and move on.

Disagree with a lot of the comments here. If you personally agree to a deal or tell someone you'll commit to an action, follow through with it, regardless of circumstance outside of grave sickness. I'm not talking about telling your wife you'll wash the dishes and instead watch the game :). I'm talking about real agreements!

If that's too much to ask please leave the hobby. The OP got a raw deal and has every right to be upset.

Agreed. And the cowardly lie the seller told makes it even worse. Sounds like the guys with buyer's regret who claim their 2 year old grandkid hit the BIN.

Yeah, we know the hobby is about nothing if not integrity. If an uninformed seller misprices an item by 300%, get it and run. That’s the hobby behavior we know and love.
How dare someone take advantage of me when I was trying to get over on them!!!

Then the guy should have had the balls to say I mispriced it are you interested at a higher price.

I agree 100%. Wasn't defending the dude. His behavior was unacceptable. But when I got to the part about he's a young father, etc., well that seemed a bit much.
Lack of privacy these days we all have is truly frightening. I think there are lines that should be respected. Again, maybe minority view these days.
Never suggested seller wasn't in the wrong.

It really weirds me out also.

What a victim! "he cancelled the order and refunded me my money. He told me his daughter spilled a drink on them."

The guy handled is unethically. OK. Get it. Reflects poorly on him as a person. And you needed to take a dive into his family situation why exactly? To confirm he had a daughter? Confirm her age? I think you should have left the dispute where it started, on eBay, and not carried it somewhere else.

I agree with the original poster. He is not the one that: (1) did not properly do his homework; (2) listed the cards; (3) came up with the buy it now price; (4) agreed to sell the cards at the listed price; (5) breached the contract; or (6) lied about the reason for breaching the contract.

It’s not his fault that he got a good deal. A sale is a sale is a sale. A man’s word used to mean something.

My personal policy is I do not buy or sell items more than $500 unless it's through an auction house.

Dive into his family situation? The OP looked him up on Facebook. Ooohhh, no one ever does that. Or Googles someone. Never happens.

Please.

This reminds me of around 1990 (or so) when people were pre-selling wax cases. The price from the manufacturer could have been about $250 and people were taking pre-orders for $400. Then the price of OPC baseball started to skyrocket. People were paying $1200, $1600 for pre-ordered cases. When the first cases were delivered, the people that pre-sold for $400 were screwing the people that paid for cases in advance and refunding the buyer their money so that they could sell them for another thousand more. People got so G-damn greedy, it was really pathetic.

It was a frigging orgy of greed. A-holes coming out of the wood work just looking to screw someone. I set up a few dealers on Coin-Net back then. Coin-Net figured it out and offered a portal for sports card dealers (yes, way back in the dial-up days). These dealers would let me scan Coin-Net and I could see all of the screwing that was going on.

GREED - GREED - GREED, looks like it's coming back in full force - it's always been here but when things start escalating and getting crazy, then it gets really bad.

Well said.

And we have all inevitably had sellers' remorse at some time, by pricing things too low. It's just part of the deal. Seller needed to man up, and refrain from his blatant lying. Integrity seems to be dying a rapid death these days.

The sale should have been completed as agreed upon but the seller made an extra $1200 with no negative recourse; not even having his ebay handle outed on a hobby website. What’s to keep him from continuing to do it?

I'd have 10 percent of my collection at best if I did that. And have never consigned. Different strokes I guess.

Funny, a similar thing happened to me on eBay. I purchased 6 sets off a guy contingent on them all being sealed. First he said they all were, then after looking again he said one was not. I tried to work something out so he could refund me what he felt was fair for just the one set, but instead refunded me for all, while also adding that he can instead sell them separately and "make extra money".

Agreed--what sanctimonious claptrap.

This
 

This is not a complicated situation. The seller put cards up for sale and accepted the buyer's offer. The seller then decided not to honor the sale and backed out with an excuse. To add insult to injury, the seller then resold the cards for a higher amount to a different buyer. Judge Patrick rules in 100% favor with the original buyer, who started this thread.

not me, I always have buyers remorse as all the good cards I've purchased, I've set records for the fellas. Never sold a card on my life.

Your sister, who doesn't know much about baseball cards, tells you she sold a card on ebay for $500. Curious, you ask for the link and when you look at it, at first it looks like a reasonable deal - an ungraded T206 common in very nice shape for $500. But you look a little closer at this Joe Doyle card and notice it has the N.Y. Nat'l designation behind his name.

Does Judge Patrick:
1. Get on the phone immediately and tell his sister not to ship that card, because it is worth something north of a million dollars?
2. Tell his sister she just threw away a million bucks, but what's more important is, she maintained her integrity?

Two people make a verbal agreement on a deal for $1,000, but nothing is written down. Another person hears of the deal before payment is exchanged and offers $50,000 for the same card. The buyer at $50,000 needs confirmation right away that the deal is done. The seller reluctantly says yes, thinking they will pay the original buyer at $1,000 an extra $5,000 to satisfy them despite not getting the card. Upon promising an extra $5,000, the buyer says it is not enough and wants an extra $20,000. The seller says there wasn't written agreement in the first place so the $5,000 is generous. Who is right and who is wrong?

One can think of increasingly unlikely scenarios and debate that question until the end of time. It's not very relevant. The point is, a verbally confirmed deal should be a deal with extremely limited exception, the OP is right to be upset how this went down and shouldn't be vilified for either pursuing a very good deal, or doing a small amount of research to see who screwed him over and lied about it for some extra bucks in a rising market.

The seller is wrong for lying about the reason, he should've admitted he made a mistake.

OP is wrong for getting so upset, when there was no money lost. You left a negative feedback, move on.

Think of it this way the hobby has always been full of shady characters there’s just more of them now because people see money. Another good way to think of it is; forget about it, move on, the cards probably sucked anyway.

Life is to short and there are many more deals to be had.

Heaven Forfend!!! The OP actually looked up someone who ripped him off on a platform the individual WILLINGLY posts his personal information on, for THE ENTIRE WORLD TO SEE???? Criminal!!! How dare he do what trillions of people do constantly and without second thought and look someone up online! The nerve!

Also Ran-jodh, how dare you not do what the hypocrites here mentioned. You should be assisting the useless seller, and do all of his work completely for him. This is 2021, no eBay seller should be expected to have any integrity, keep their word or know what they're selling...... that's everyone else's job... and shame on you for not helping him get every dollar he "deserves".

He's a new father after all!!!! .... and so much more important than you or what's right apparently....

Perhaps the guy who lied to the OP is posting on this thread? Only way I can explain the moral relativism.

How was he ripped off? He lost no money.

There aren't trillions of people.

He lost the difference between the market value, the cost to purchase another one, and the discounted cost one (the benefit of his bargain) that was the subject of his transaction.

Let's say you are in the market for a new car. The market value for the model you want is $40k. You negotiate a deal with a dealer for $35k. After the sale, the dealer then refunds your money and then sells it to another customer for $40k.

Now, if you want that same car, you are forced to pay $40k on the open market. You will have to pay $5k more. You have lost this amount. You have lost the benefit of the bargain you negotiated.

I think anyone would be unhappy with this result.

Unhappy? Of course.

I disagree, if OP is not out money, he wasn't ripped off. He's exactly the same as before the deal. I guess we see it different.

Some of these comments are hilarious.
Definitely some hypocrite sellers on here...

This is an interesting thread. For those arguing that the original buyer was “taking advantage” of the seller - how far does that argument go? Does a buyer have an affirmative duty to contact a seller and say “Hey, your price on this is way low - let me give you 2x” or whatever?

I think it all depends on the mistake's nature.

For example, if a seller made an obvious patent or typographical error (e.g. forgetting to add an extra zero to the price - $100.00, but meant to type $1,000.00) when listing the item, I think a buyer should show mercy.

However, as a buyer, it is not my job to price another man's merchandise. It is also not my job to do your homework. This is 2021. Information is readily available at everyone's finger tips. There are internet searches, price guides, prior sales data, etc. So, if you underpriced an item that is on you.

100%! I can’t even believe this is debatable. Completely different story if you found someone with a card/collection and they had no idea what they had- and then you lowballed them. But once they post up on ebay with a price, that’s on them. You shouldn’t have to pay them more after they realized their mistake either. Like what was said earlier... used to be where a man honored their word whether they made a mistake or not.

I’d be ticked if I was the buyer, but it’d probably end there and I’d move on. The facebook / detective work stuff... meh, little weird in my opinion.. but whatever. Just the world today I guess.

Any time I have stuff like that happen, I always think of a scene from A Bronx Tale. Cost you nothing to cross him off your list of “sellers to not buy from”. You got off cheap.

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If the error is significant enough no court will enforce the agreement. The Doyle hypothetical is an example. The # is so egregiously low that the buyer shouldn't really expect to get the deal if the seller figures it out. The buyer might even face a lawsuit to rescind the deal on the basis of mistake. That wasn't the case here: $2k instead of $3.2K is not that degree of mistake. $2K instead of $32K probably is.

I've always noticed that there's a fairly stringent efficient market type of expectation here among many (that I never would've expected or rarely saw when I was dealing in high school during the junk wax era).

Well beyond what happened in the story here. Some seem very uncomfortable when an $850 card sells for either 700 or 1000, as if that was some sort of major screw job to either the buyer or seller.

During those dealing days, I had to find ways to make it worthwhile. One of them was raiding quarter and dollar boxes at the local shows right after the new monthly Beckett came out (and looking for cards that had just shot up). Was this taking advantage of the seller? Am I supposed to point out that he didn't bother to take a (now) $5 card out of the dollar box? Most of them would've looked at me annoyed and said something like "if it's there, that's what it costs"

And as some have mentioned, everyone has ample resources to figure out what something is worth nowadays. Unless it's something really egregious (or one party is purposely misdirecting info to the detriment of the other), this taking advantage concept about selling price gets taken too far sometimes.

As far as this spot, I think a $2000 deal to sell cards that were worth maybe twice that (we don't even know since they weren't graded) should have been honored by the seller. He was in the wrong for reneging to get 3200 elsewhere

Three Word Solution:


BST

This makes sense as far as the courts go. The point I was getting at with the Doyle example is that principle in honoring a deal where a seller might miss out on $1200 vanishes with most people when the amount they could lose out on becomes quite large. Relative principle.

Reminds me of an old story:

Guy walks into a bar and sidles up to an attractive lady. He casually asks, "Would you sleep with me for a million dollars?" She looks him over and says, "Sure." So then he says, "Would you sleep with me for 50 bucks?" She gets angry and slaps him, saying "What kind of a woman do you think I am?!"

He replies, "We've already established that. What we're trying to determine now is the price."

I'm a bad businessman. I don't sell too often, but there have been a few transactions where I found I had priced an item too low and had agreed to sell at that price. I have always honored the price. This is strictly a matter of integrity.
On the flip side, I have had a number of occasions where I could have bought something at an extremely low price due to the seller not knowing the market and trusting me. On those occasions I am always honest with the buyer and will give them a fair price for what they are selling. This, too, is a matter of integrity for me.

Sounds a bit like this story to me:

https://www.sportscollectorsdaily.co...okie-incident/

Rich

Reminds me of the Greed episode where the guy who ripped off the old man at a garage sale got mad when Mastro ripped him off...

This is the best advice I've seen all day. At my first card shows in the early 1970s, there were always a couple guys waiting by the door who were ready to flash a crisp $100 at anybody that wandered off the street carrying a shoebox. I learned at a young age that you need to be educated and skeptical, and you can't take your eyes off your stuff.

As for eBay transactions, I try not to get too excited about any purchase until I'm holding it in my hand. And yes, there will always be another good deal waiting right around the corner, if you're willing to put the work in. In fact, when these crazy prices take their inevitable downturn, I suspect there will be even more good deals to be had, to the disappointment of many who bought at the peak.

I didn't need to hear about the seller's family. As opposed to what some others on here have suggested is fair , they had no part in the transgression and need no mention or be parceled into ridicule. If any of you dodgy characters felt put out dealing with me and got in to mentioning my family on here I'd be googling YOUR address.
You want to mention a bad ebay transaction I think is all good.

I think this is a different situation than an anonymous eBay transaction between strangers, though. Right?

I don't really believe so. I may be old fashioned, but I don't think it's right to take advantage of anyone.

I found out a board member was fishing through my Ebay wins, and emailing sellers offering more money for completed auctions! The guy had the nerve to look me in the face and deny it, until ultimately, I put the cards on the table, or didnt.

In fact he had given me cards to grade, and I refused to return them until I was reimbursed for one of the cards. An Ebay seller specifically told me the name and the town of the person who had offered him more and told him to cancel the sale! Of course I had offered him a $200 direct paypal payment for this information, which he did not take.

Some call me an ass, I like to think I'm shrewd. After a handful of specific cards get " lost or misplaced, damaged by their daughter, etc" one has to open their eyes that something is amiss.

I'll say again, I've met some of the nicest, kindest people in the hobby, but also some of the worst!

So let's say I'm browsing around eBay one night, and I come across a card that I think has a market value of, say, $500 offered for $250 BIN. Your position is that, instead of just clicking BIN, I have a moral obligation to contact the seller and offer $500?

By the time the seller gets back to me, it's entirely possible (even likely) that someone else has gone ahead with the BIN. If the seller then cancels that transaction based on my offer, doesn't that make me similar to the person Ted describes in the post above? He would seem to have a viable claim for tortious interference there.

That sucks, but how was he able to browse through your auction wins?

Was before the "masked bidder " IDs. You could search by bidder. Now it takes going through feedback left

Paying 50% of the value of a card for resale is reasonable. I'm talking about transactions that are obviously unfair to one party or the other. I know when a transaction is wrong by my sense of right and wrong. What any other party to the transaction does is not relevant to what I do. Others may disagree in this world of gray, but I live in a black and white world.

If paying 50% of the value is reasonable, but some unspecified lesser percentage than that is wrong, that sounds a lot like a gray area to me ;).

You stated that "Paying 50% of the value of a card for resale is reasonable." However, wouldn't it depend on the card's value?

In the cited example, the card's market value was $500.00, and its buy-it-now prices was $250.00. Just $250.00 difference. No big deal.

However, would your answer and you 50% is reasonable rule change, if the card's market value was $100,000.00, and its buy-it-now price was $50,000.00? A $50,000.00 difference. That is a big deal.

Everything is relative.

I'm not here to parse hairs. I know what I feel comfortable with. If others feel comfortable doing something else that is up to them.

See my previous post. We could go on and on with individual cases. I'm not going to litigate every case. Like I said, I know where I feel comfortable and where I don't. I guess we all can have our own tipping points.

The silliest thing about all of this is it was posted as some sort of referendum on the state of hobby broadly, but then the OP's investigatory skills quickly uncovered that the dude hardly sells at all.

As far as some moral obligation to tell someone they priced something badly, well that is relative and probably the old case by case basis kind of thing. But if you go down to Florida and are going to buy some widow or widower's condo for $75,000, and you know full well from from searching Zillow that its worth at least $200,000 fair market value, and then a family member catches wind of what's going on and rips the contract up and tells you to stick it where the sun doesn't shine, . . . well, I'm certainly am not pulling my violin out and letting you cry on my shoulder about the sad state of the real estate game.

This makes me wonder about the guy who sold his Jordan RC on eBay for 350k the day before 2 sold at Goldin for 738k each.

If you go back and read my first post, you will see that I wrote the following:

These cards were in great condition and if they had graded high, then I would have doubled my money - maybe tripled.

That's right - IF they had graded high. The star cards in the set could have come back as PSA 6s or even less. If PSA sees the tiniest corner ding, then they can really screw you hard. There is only so much I can see behind my computer screen. I don't even know how much profit I could have made in the end. The point of this thread was that I felt screwed after what he did, especially over $1,200 USD. I've sold so many cards this month, and he if wanted more money, then all he had to do was ask. He should have given me that option because I already bought them! He's an idiot.

And there is something else I want to mention: why does Leon tell everyone to post their names on here? Is that creepy to any of you? Did it creep you out when he put our names below our avatars without even consulting with us first? Not at all! We all need to know who is on the other end - simple as that! Who is this guy that I'm dealing with? Who am I buying from? Who am I communicating with? Are you guys telling me that you've never looked people up before on social media? If so, then you're full of it!

Who is to say what something is worth?

What is Gamestop stock worth?

You're wrong! Check again! :D

A deal is a deal, and . . .

"The law says, bust a deal! Face the wheel!"

Oh, and I forgot to add one more thing! Social media sites give you the option to make your data private or public. If I can look somebody up and see pictures of him with his girlfriend at a Yankees game or I can see a smoking hot lady in a bikini showing off her behind, it's because they WANT me to see them! They want to share their stuff with the world! So, who is the creepy one here? Me or them? Wait, maybe none of us are! Maybe some of you old-timers just don't understand how times have changed! It's not 1968 anymore, guys!

+1 for the Beyond Thunderdome quote.

. . . . he says to the lawyer.

I am with you though. It is hard to say exactly where the line is in terms of making a fair deal vs being predatory. I think the OP is in the clear here, there is not much you can do on an ebay transaction, if an item is priced too low, somebody is going to snatch it, so if you are the lucky one, so be it.

To me though if there is a sad state of the hobby it is that most people see the OP as a victim here. I don't get the moral indignation. The buyer was hoping to grade and flip the cards and make a windfall profit, but the seller got educated and reneged.

OP didn't do anything to earn that profit, so he is not out anything. It is a shame from his standpoint that he didn't get free money but for chrissake move on.

I think things like this are happening more and more these days.

-Ebay sellers cancelling sales because the price of their item changed in value from yesterday to today.

-ebay sellers cancelling sales because they weren't happy with the sales price

I had an experience on the BST here a year or two ago where I accidentally sold a rare card for way less than it was worth. The buyer offered to give me more...I declined. It was my mistake and I accepted responsibility for it.

This year around the holidays...said buyer gifted me a card I've been hunting for for years. I was/am so happy!

I believe in karma. I believe in being responsible for my actions.

The world has become a different place where many/most are just out for themselves. This is sad.