Cleveland's IX Center to Close - Home to the National
 

Will the National look for a different venue in Cleveland, or abandon the city altogether? The only other venue I can think of in Cleveland that would be able to host this would presumably be too expensive for the National since it's downtown.

https://fox8.com/news/i-team/clevela...18rrvRU8DQDkUo

Good question. They will probably go wherever they can get the "free rent", regardless of how inaccessible/problematic it is for the attendees.

Hope it heads West!

I'm thinking some wealthy company or person will buy it and continue it as a convention center as long is the city doesn't have plans to tear it down and turn it into some kind of high rise housing because it's close to the airport

Screw Cleveland and Screw Chicago. Move the dam national around so other collectors can attend one. National my ass. There will be plenty of dealers to set up and take the place of the spoiled ones.

You know, I am going to kind of miss going to Cleveland for the show. Sure, the venue sucked, the lodgings were not first-rate, etc., but the lack of anything to do made for some good evenings at the bar and I always had good luck finding stuff at the show. And where else is there a ferris wheel to break up the show floor??? I just hope they don't put it in AC instead. Just make it Chicago every year. It is easy to get to, there's lots of convenient dining and lodging, and the venue is decent.

agreed

Boston would be nice---they have everything the National would need---But the toughest unions to deal with in the country. And only 2 hours for me---But my guess is Chicago.

Honestly
 

I am a proponent of Chicago every year if they aren’t going to bother making it a true national and move it all around the country.

IX Center
 

Lots of good memories at the Cleveland National. Hope it stays there. Trent King

Sad day!
 

The first and best National I ever attended was the Cleveland National in 1997.

Patrick

How about Hertz Arena in SW Florida, halfway between Naples & FT Myers. Right next to I-75.

Boo! The Cleveland site is way better, in my opinion, than Chicago. Sure there are quality hotels next door or attached to the Chicago Convention Center. But they all cost well over $200 per night and You could get a limo ride to a great hotel in Cleveland and still save $100.

One vote for anything west of Arizona.

I did not mind Cleveland at all. Was always able to find a halfway decent restaurant in the vicinity for food/drink, and the IX Centre was fine.

Florida? Atlanta? Dallas? A northerner like me would melt after a couple of days down there in August. :)

I did not mind Cleveland at all. Was always able to find a halfway decent restaurant in the vicinity for food/drink, and the IX Centre was fine.

Florida? Atlanta? Dallas? A northerner like me would melt after a couple of days down there in August. :)

Wow!!
 

That is crazy news! I hope they figure something out that can keep the national in rotation there - way easier in ways than Chicago.

I will miss this venue. I always found it to be a comfortable and convenient location for me. And, an indoor carnival wheel to ride if you wanted a break.

I like your style, Frank.

Seattle, Phoenix, Vegas, Denver or L.A. would all be awesome for different reasons, but I'm not holding my breath.

Agree... and don't forget San Diego!

Maybe if we cheer hard enough (think of The Godfather's guests imploring Johnny Fontaine to take the stage at Connie's wedding) maybe we can coax Mark Macrae into organizing some sort of semi-huge show in California. His bi-annual St. Leander's shows are great!! :rolleyes:

Why is it that every time the National is mentioned, we hear the same thing over and over again? Move it around the country? Move it to the West Coast as one of the rotation locations? Keep it in Chicago every year?

Did you know that at the last National on the West Coast, most of the East Coast dealers took their one out of every five election to not set up at the National.

We are not "spoiled". We accrued our seniority and most of the long-time dealers are old now and don't want to make such a long trip. The National Committee knows the facts and understands that it is an important part of the National to have most of the premier dealers in the country set up at the show.

A National is simply not a National without them. Substituting local dealers and new faces is just not what the customers really want. Yes, they want an acceptable amount of new dealers and new faces. But they travel to the National to see their friends and the people they have bought from for many years. You can see your local dealers at your local shows!!

Sadly, I will miss the Cleveland show and was disappointed that the Atlantic City show was cancelled. I wouldn't mind if they changed the Cleveland show to an Atlantic City one. But I would mind going to Chicago every year for the National, but if so, I would be there.

I'll miss the Ferris Wheel.

Cleveland was low on my list for accommodations, but as others noted the lack of other things to do made for some good interaction with others at the bar and some after show trading/meet ups.

Chicago just works because most people can get there direct and the drive isn't a killer for the East Coasters, plus the accommodations and center are really good.

AC is hard to get to but the accommodations and center are actually pretty good.

I don't think Boston would ever work because it also isn't as accessible,
same issue for Philly probably. Similar issues for Baltimore on the travel for non-East Coasters.

Phoenix would actually be really good, but again not super accessible especially for the East Coasters.

Dallas and Houston are never on these lists, but I think some of that is "stuff" to do besides the show. Accommodations and centers are as good as any of these others, and both are pretty easy to get to from both coasts.

I always thought Anaheim was awesome, I appreciate the East Coasters don't like that haul but I also don't think a skip every 4-5 years hurts that much.

Anyway, my guess is Cleveland is officially dead as a location now, so it's kinda Chicago and...Chicago.

So it's not a National without the east coast dealers? You should be pandered to because you "have seniority"? You're old and don't want to travel far? Sounds pretty spoiled to me.

IMO, the ideal situation would be a set of regular east coast dealers that all make the trip to Chicago and then a set from the west coast that all make the trip to the Phoenix/Vegas area and alternate years.

Atlanta, Orlando, DC/Baltimore, Philly, Charlotte???

All this talk about the 'East Coast Dealers' and every year the National is in the Mid-West? WTH??

Right. The east coast dealers don't want to go west, but they do expect the west coast dealers AND buyers to go east. Check. But you aren't selfish or anything ... you just have "seniority." Whatever. I will never go to AC. It is both a dump and hard to get to. I guess I'll take my "one out of five" to avoid that dump every time it is held there.

50% of the US population lives within 500 miles from WV. Makes sense to have it on the East Coast.

If we still drove horse and buggies this would make complete sense.

When you consider that two-thirds of the country is west of the Mississippi River, it would be very nice to have the "National Convention" come across the river once in a while!

Steve

[QUOTE=Steve D;2018253]When you consider that two-thirds of the country is west of the Mississippi River, it would be very nice to have the "National Convention" come across the river once in a while!

Other than the fact that the Committee doesn't give a fu*k about that. Its all about where they can get the best deal/make money from booking it there. It is zero about collectors, hasn't been that for over 20 years. it is IMO crazy. Truly a case of cutting off the nose to spite the face. But, sadly, it seems to work.

Baseball used to be just an East Coast thing to. Perhaps the West should start their own gig, just like they did in the 50's.

Let see. The name of the show is the National Sports COLLECTORS Convention. Somewhere along the way it has turned into The National Sports Dealers Convention. COLECTORS being the key word. Move the thing around for the collectors.

Transportation in Boston is really tough. I cant see the city housing 40,000 people for a week. You'd have to go outside of it for cheap lodging. There's really only one way out and one way in to the city. Believe me, there's nothing I'd love more than to have a National here, but the city is not good. There are 2 large convention centers that are used for anything except the auto show in December at the waterfront. Boston has great sports history which is a plus but how knows, maybe I'm wrong on a National here? What do you think?

I think Boston could work, I think at one time there wasn't a large enough venue in the area.

Providence has a big convention center.
I went to a rabbit convention there and supposedly it was the only local place big enough. (They did it a couple years ago at the eastern states in springfield, but that's a bit too rural for the high rollers.

The stamp collectors have multiple large shows every year in different locations. (and an international in Boston in 2026 a big enough event they're starting to plan it already.) Many of the big dealers go to most of the big shows.
And if you guys think card dealers are old.....

If it's in Chicago would a bulletproof vest booth slide through?

We've had it wrong all this time. They are not "spoiled", They're "premier."

I needed a good laugh. Thanks.

Thanks a lot.... spilled coffee on my shirt reading that one. :D

I for one don't really care if the 'senior' dealers skip a show every few years; collectors likely would be pleasantly surprised at who turns up instead. One of the great parts of the National for me when it really rotated was going to different places and seeing different local dealers in the back third of the room. I picked up some great stuff over the years in Cleveland, Baltimore and Anaheim because local people could set up. I don't think it is any accident that as the show has retreated into a few locations the actual card dealer base has actually shrunk with relatively little new blood or inventory and I think I know why: it is very difficult and expensive to take two weeks off to drive back and forth to a show back east. I know if I could drive to a show in a day (LA, Anaheim, SD, LV, Phoenix, SF or Sacramento all would work) I could take a table because I could do so economically.

Is there anything west of Arizona left?

+1

I have always suggested that there be two Nationals -- one near the East Coast and one near the West Coast. If there were two shows, I would do both. In fact, if there were a West Coast show now, I WOULD set up as a booth holder this time. I guarantee that I would not exercise my one in five skip. So I am in favor with moving the show around if the logistics can be worked out.

Maybe a one in three or four year rotation with Chicago, Atlantic City, Las Vegas or Anaheim, and one other choice?

I am not in favor of the Boston location unless we can move our display in ourselves and break down ourselves. We would need the ability to drive to our booth location as we can do right now at all Nationals. New York would be nice at Javits Center but the same issues that apply in Boston are issues in New York.

Anaheim or San Francisco or Las Vegas could be worth a try if they meet those specifics. Las Vegas would be great as hotel rooms are inexpensive and it is easy to get in and out by plane or car.

I accept being called "spoiled" but I am still open to innovations and definitely favor some mix of locations.

Steve

Sorry, but this post is quite a departure from your last one. If the east coast dealers sat out Anaheim, but everyone who went to Anaheim said it was a great show, then maybe you and your brethren have a misplaced sense of self importance.

If you want to see Pompeii on a budget, just come out to California instead. In a thousand years, archaeologists are going to discover my home buried under 100 feet of ash, and then create a plaster cast of my body holding a can of Spaghetti-O's and something that turns out to be a graded card slab.

If nothing is west of Mississippi then I wish they wouldn't call it a National. That always bothered me.

Ricky Y

A few years ago some hard-working soul put together a good summary of why the National is where it is and isn't where it isn't. (Too wiped out now to plow through the archives to look for the thread.)

Essentially it came down to three things:

availability of floor space--the venue has to be big enough, but not too big.
scheduling flexibility--some venues won't schedule events out far enough in advance, and others want committments too far in the future
union labor--driving right up to your space ain't gonna happen in a place like Boston or NYC. Only union labor can handle unloading and loading at some venues.

Bill

Bill- I know the union thing is true, but I don't understand how such idiocy is allowed. Who in their right mind negotiates these union contracts? I'm not anti-union, I'm anti-stupidity. What about my right to carry my own property where I want to carry it?

Usually you can self carry or use a 2-wheel dolly but can not drive in or use a 4-wheel dolly in the heavily unionized convention centers.

Wouldn't want to upset the old guys with seniority. A National is simply not a National without them.

Chicago is not really Chicago, it's in Rosemont a suburb of Chicago, so you're safe there.

Maybe it's just me but one of the posters on this trail just has nothing positive to say or add and is only offering negative comments. I refuse to drop to that level. Such posters should be blocked like they do on Facebook.

The National is what it is because of the trailblazers that paved the way. The National Committee works very hard and they deserve a lot of credit for weighing all of the options and making difficult decisions for all of us. You just can't keep everyone happy all of the time.

I apologize for my tone. That said, I am only referencing, if not directly quoting, what you said. Yes the National Committee’s decisions are disappointing, but what set me off was the sense of entitlement oozing from your first post.

There. I’m done. Chicago or bust.

Cool. But I do feel that many of us who have been doing shows for decades should have some deserved "priority" for setting up at the National. I guess you can call it "entitled".

I have done all but 4 of the Nationals; I have promoted over 300 baseball card shows; and I have set up at well over 1,000 shows over the last 46 years. Believe it or not, there were some months in the 70s and 80s and 90s where I worked every day of the week and also every day on the weekends for months in a row. I was also out every night buying collections.

Yeah, I have done a lot but have enjoyed every minute of it. I believe that we all should be positive about our hobby experiences. I even continue to buy collections and have bought three large collections over the past 2 months.

Life is good. So everyone stay safe!!

I think the greater Dallas area would be a wonderful location for, if not a National, an exceptionally large regional show. That area has so much going for it.

I'd be up for it. Lots of direct flights, centrally located, and a very accessible hub. Why not Dallas?

That's too bad - I've been to several Nationals in Cleveland and thought they were just fine. Would be nice to see the show hit a little further west.

To be fair in the DFW area; Kyle Robertson already runs a nice fairly large regional show at a really spiffy fairly new location. Not just because I can walk to show from my COMC office and/or it's 10 minutes from my house the area is great for a larger regional show. Just off a major highway; tons of places to eat nearby, hotels available. We already have the large regional show here in DFW.

Yes I would love the NSCC to be able to use the Dallas Convention Center. But trust me, most of us living here would prefer not to be here during a NSCC and to go somewhere 10-15 degree colder as a high temperature.

Rich

It's not an easy solution.

Yes, dealers that have been loyal to the show should have some priority. But, when that priority is coupled with corporate booths, it means that a good 2/3 of the show floor is gone, leaving local or newer dealers with the back of the room. I remember doing the last Anaheim show. You walk in and see the same dealers you always see (think Mr. Mint and his minions) and then the corporate booths. Those of us in the back of the room knew it would be a good half-hour to 45 minutes for us to see any traffic once the doors opened.

Maybe the way to reward loyal dealers is that they get first dibs on tables - not location - just tables. There are only X number of tables at a show, so having priority to get one could be a reward. But once that's done, table assignment should be totally random. And I know corporate booths bring in money for the promoters, but come on - some kind of limit on their space or maybe in an adjacent room would serve dealers better.

And let's not forget, the "trailblazers" started on the West Coast.

Just my 2cents.

Every time the National location comes up for debate there are always the same comments and complaints. You know, it's ok if you aren't able to go to the National for a year because it's on the west coast. You won't die or anything. And the west coast collectors deserve to have the National as much as the east coast collectors. If you can't go one year, then boohoo for you. Stop whining and just get over it. I can only go when it's in AC and I love it when I get there. Everyone else is always like, "AC is the worst...AC is a dump...I'll never go back to AC...etc." But I love it in AC because it's the only time I can get there. And I'm not bitching about not being able to go because it's in Chicago every damn year. I'm just happy when it's here. So stop complaining and go when you can and enjoy it.

I recall the Atlanta National back in the mid 1990's as being exciting and packed. Perhaps my perception was clouded by serious discussions I had with Kevin Struss, who was with SCP at the time, for a PSA graded vg/ex T206 Honus. The card had been consigned by Bill Mastro and was a recent discovery.

But I always thought Atlanta was a great demographic choice for the National; the East Crowd could easily and economically fly in, the South would obviously be served, plenty of good hotels and restaurants and then Georgia with a rich baseball history.

To this day, I don't know what went wrong and Atlanta was dropped from the National's rota. Living in Florida, as I do, it would make my logistics easier to attend if reconsidered.

That's too bad the National will no longer be in Cleveland. It was always easy to drive & park at the IX Center. It now looks like the National will end up being in Chicago every single year.

There are many locations/venues that can't host the National for one reason or another:

Some venues are too small
Some cities don't have enough hotel rooms
Some venues are not convenient to airports
Some venues have union legal stuff that makes it not possible
Some venues charge too much for having events in their building
Some cities are not good baseball towns so they're voted no
Some venues don't want it scheduled too far in the future, so voted no.

I'm sure there are more reasons, but these are the major ones.

John:

To be honest and I was with Beckett at both times (92 and 99) and frankly Atlanta was a disappointment both times. The 1999 National was frankly terrible and the 92 one was not good considering how hot the hobby was at the time. Atlanta is not an active hobby area.

Rich

It's not like we're asking a lot out here on the West Coast. How about one every 8 or 10 years? I mean, I know some of the dealers don't want to travel out here, but we have a lot of people here in the hobby willing to spend money.

This is now a decade-long (and longer) discussion. Here is this classic from 2009

https://www.net54baseball.com/showth...ht=Mike+Berkus

Rich

Rich, thanks. Now I know. Must have been the Honus.

I hope organizers aren't betting the farm on a 2021 Natty happening. Covid certainly won’t be sorted out by winter when I assume planning starts, and changes for a show that big need a very wide berth. Hope I’m wrong, but if I was them I’d be investigating the possibility of a Chicago 2022 return.

I've talked enough with Mr. Broggi to know he (and the other National promoters and the dealer board) will not rush in and have a show unless they feel it is safe. They are planning to have the 2021 show but not betting the farm on the NSCC as it was in 2019. I don't speak for anyone but there is enough room in Rosemont to re-adjust if needed.

We can have shows but we have to be careful thereof.

Rich

Good luck to anyone making decisions about mask rules. That in and of itself could be a nightmare.

Even here is Texas if the masks are mandated by county, state, etc then most of the people will honor that request. Kyle's August show had about 90 percent compliance. Not perfect but much better than June's show.

Rich

Absent a vaccine or good treatments and everyone behaving like a grown-up instead of an entitled child, I am not going regardless. Only an asshole gets killed for baseball cards.

Regardless of vaccines, treatments, or compliance, masks are going to be around and a hot button issue for the next couple of years at least, I would think. I personally wouldn’t go to an indoor event with that many people without 100% enforced compliance, and even then I’d be on the fence. I know others feel differently it’s their right to do so....but my point being, I’m not sure if they’ll be able to make enough people comfortable with the situation to make it worth having the show in tue next couple of years. The end question is, it better to try and have it be a flop attendance-wise, or not have one at all?

Dependent on vaccines/masks/large indoor gatherings, maybe sometime next year, we could see the National morp into several large, regional shows. Less people, smaller venue, more (relatively speaking) safety.

I sense that many people believe the National, as is, has grown into something never intended by the original "trailblazers." Perhaps this give the collecting community the opportunity to get back to something closer to the original.

Well, you could definitely pick up the entire corporate section and move it to another room...or just drop it in the ocean with the 1952 Topps high numbers.

I understand the draw of one big show every year for several reasons I won’t go into. I do wonder how masks would inhibit the social piece of the show, which is a major one for most attendees. It’s a crappy situation for all involved. I do think that some careful planning and consideration could produce a pretty awesome virtual National. I know someone tried one, which I’m sure provided a lot of takeaways. It would require a patchwork (video, audio, IM) of, or possibly its own platform, but it could be cool. Not the same, but cool. You could still charge admission, dealer fees, everything. You could have speakers, lectures, special signings. You can still have breaks. They could run ads (commercials, basically) for corporate sponsors. These could offset the platform costs easily since you have no rent, union fees, etc to deal with. Yes it would be a logistical challenge, but anything that happens will be anyway, so what the hell.

I will assure you Masks had almost no effect on socialization at Kyle's August show. Bigger issues would be with physical distancing what can the corporates do and the autograph areas. The card show area can actually with a few adjustments continue as it was.

Rich

Quick question: At a virtual convention, if I make a hot dog at home, do I have to send someone $12.00?

Without question :)

Im sure there’s plenty of physical space. I was speaking more to people’s comfort level (and how that would effect their willingness to go at all) as opposed to the geographical logistics. Im not saying its not possible...just curious how it would pan out. There’s really only one way to find out!

I can't say I disagree with that logic in any way. There are a whole bunch of people who want nothing to do with going out in public or to a show at this point. I certainly understand their position and I'm not going to change their beliefs.

On the other hand, there were approximately 1500 people who attended Kyle's 3-day August show (up from 1000-1100 in June) and I have not heard of anyone getting Covid-19 from those who were there. *Granted I don't know everyone*.

All I'm saying is by Chicago in 2021 I suspect there will be another group of people really anxious to go out and see cards in person rather than virtually.

Rich

A west coast national is overdue.