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Let's welcome Charlie Barokas to the Billion Dollar Fraud!
https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1348201
Let's all give this jackass a nice warm welcome to PSA's Cavalcade of Stars!!! |
Is there going to be a card set?
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I just want the entire set in PSA 10's. I will wait for 5 months like an ignoramus until it POPS! |
I think it's great what BODA has done, but don't these guys have anything better to do than to just sit there examining COMMONS all day long? I seriously don't give two sh*ts about Billy Cox and Gene Ronzani.
I want to see something BIG, man! Let's see some trimmed WATERFRONT cards, guys! Show the world some trimmed Mantles, Mays, Robinsons, Ruths, Gehrigs, Cobbs, Clementes, Aarons, etc. |
Happened to see one card in the last page was like a 19k gainer.
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Johnny Unitas this broke my heart!!!
https://www.blowoutforums.com/showth...90614&page=254 Registry is False Pop Report is False MarketPlace is False and Highly Manipulated |
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Registry is Fake Pop Report is Fake We know they need us more then we need them our volume has never been higher keep quiet the suckers aren’t going to stop sending us cards It’s gold Jerry Gold |
A billion is a thousand million. I think we are a little far from that.
Nothing like sensationalism |
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This whole thing saddens me. Charlie is a photo fanatic, like myself. Spectacular collector. SUCH a nice guy.
Integrity is a very simple thing; it really is. Compromising it becomes a habit for some people, I guess. I don't want to believe this but the evidence is certainly strong. This is the first time this thing has really sunk in. Damned shame. |
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I appreciate your humor. You made me laugh at something that really bums me out. We have to laugh. Meanwhile, I guess the take-away is "don't stop at the holder--LOOK at the card really closely. The holder is only the first step and nowhere near foolproof." |
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No truer words have been spoken! Seems that the mantra of the OP is "billion dollar fraud." Saying it hundreds of times doesn't make it so. Appreciate there's some big issues but i'd agree it's not a billion. |
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Might not be a billion (yet).
But what’s been exposed is merely the tip of the iceberg. I wouldn’t be surprised if that number becomes fact after a couple more years. |
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Would you take the over/under it's a billion? |
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I bet there's a Brazilian trimmed cards (Pele) Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk |
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Isn't there a PSA 8 that is several million by itself? Even if they got to $500K on blowout do you think they have uncovered even 1/2000th of the dollar amount of ALL altered cards, I don't. I would think with all the altered cards out there they would be lucky to have uncovered that percentage so far. Just my silly honest opinion.:) |
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If you don't know what a waterfront card is, then search some past threads on this site where collectors discuss them. The only waterfront card I remember seeing that was trimmed was a 1958 Topps Bobby Hull rookie. I remember the 1952 Topps Mantle as well, but I don't believe that one was trimmed. I think the corners got pressed down or something like that. And then there was that Cracker Jack Joe Jackson which was soaked - that was a bad one too. Otherwise, I have no interest in reading through thousands of pages discussing crappy cards. |
Waterfront
I have been collecting for a long time and I have never heard the term "waterfront" in regard to sports cards.
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Isn't the T206 Wagner Gretzky card altered? It was altered in the 1980s, and slabbed in the 1990s. And about a month ago, I believe Blowout outed a Babe Ruth Goudey card, altered by the former football player. If I have to take over/under on $1 Billion of fraud, I am taking over. You have to consider that the fraud is running at almost 30 years deep since PSA claimed the Wagner was an 8 NM-MT. How many of these altered cards, even altered commons, from the 1980s, have been sold, resold, resold, resold, resold..... |
Hello,
1) I absolutely despise the term "waterfront card". 2) If PSA is in on the scam or if they are just incompetent, wouldn't you have to also look at the company stock price in this matter? Whatever is going on and however it is happening, I would think the stock price of the company is much higher now than it otherwise would be if people knew what was going on. If that is true then I would think you would have to add in the difference in stock price which would be part of the total cost of the fraud people are claiming. David |
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That's the beauty of the gig. make 700 on some no name and move on. It's all in the POP my friend, All in the POP:D:D |
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It's easily a billion, but is it multi-billion dollar scheme? Some would argue no. It's just a billion dollar fraud, only. So keep on submitting while they sit on their hands over there at your favorite Pop store. While they continue to shear you like a baby lamb. |
Is the Namath rookie a "waterfront" card? The one they uncovered was like. $50k fraud in itself I believe.
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https://www.blowoutforums.com/showth...light=trimming |
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Evan Mathis also bought a Michael Jordan RC, as a 7, and then resubmitted - or altered it - and turned it into a 9. I would call that a waterfront card.
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One billion
Not 10 million Not 100 million That's 1000 million |
I would imagine if you grabbed all of the trimmed cards from the inception of the hobby to today you may get a billion dollars in value changes. I would also imagine that if you put it to the current situation that you would get far, far less than a billion of improved value. As I said yesterday, just because people keep saying it doesn't make it so. A billion is a bunch. This isn't a billion. Don't get me wrong, it's bad when people cheat but a billion...no way.
I've also been wondering what people's thoughts are regarding the % of cards graded that are actually tainted in some way. I would guess that number to be pretty low but am curious if anyone else had a thought. I'm thinking < 1% of cards graded. No data to support it but it's just my hunch. |
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Sellers Do Not Care if a card is altered or whom gives them the card to consign its all about if it’s Slabbed By PSA they could care less altered or not. Look at the stupid Numbers things are selling for on Pwcc Mile High and Heritage unless they’re all manipulated bids/sales......Very Will Could Be...One Last Manufactured Run to Pump and Dump their inventories before the Crash......idk it’s trash....makes me sick |
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In regards to PSA's stock price, I think several things are going on: First, I think the stock market is just like every other "vehicle" out there, in that people do not want to lose money. The world today reminds me very much of 2007. I do not understand why/how the stock market keeps going up, and I fear what is around the corner. People will do all they can to keep the good times rolling, until the bottom falls out. And, like with cards (or anything else that people are significantly invested in), shareholders in PSA want their stock to keep going up; even if that includes blatantly disregarding bad facts and warning signs. So I think there may be some convenient ignorance. Second, I think there may be actual ignorance. From what I read, PSA has been doing a very good job of censoring and deflecting. They seem to be keeping damage to a minimum for now, hoping this all passes and doubling down on the faulty plan. Thus, I think fewer people know whats going on than we think. And, isnt that what happened to Enron? The stock was a dynamo until one day bad news came out and it sank like a Led Zeppelin? (I am pretty sure thats how they got their name). So, I think many people dont know whats going, and most that do know whats going on, either dont care or pretend it does not exist. Third, I think PSA is a fairly thinly traded stock, and I bet the larger stockholders have been somewhat (albeit legally) manipulating the price by either not selling or buying. The value of the stock should not fluctuate too much unless a few major movers, make moves. And perhaps the wise move for a major stockholder of PSA is either to buy, or certainly not sell. I have come to believe that PSA is both incompetent, and on some level, 100% a part of this, and I would like to see them take a massive hit (and some officers go to country club jail); I do think they get it right more often than not, and I still want my cards in a slab (PSA or SGC), but I do think there is a very dirty thing going on in California. I think that as long as people keep at it, and noise is being made, the truth will catch up to PSA, and that truth will be reflected in the stock price (like Enron). For this reason, it is crucial that BODA keep exposing all the altered cards, not just the "waterfront" ones, and why it is crucial that us message board(ers) dont disparage those calling out the card doctors and the TPGs that give them wings. The 1914 CJ Jacksons make the headlines, but the thousands of altered commons are what shows the pattern and proves the crime/scheme beyond any doubt. |
I'm not trying to lessen the extent of the fraud. When people make outlandish claims, it actually LESSENS the credibility surrounding the claim. Albeit from the resident pedestrian poster.
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My personal guess is that between 10-20% of PSA graded cards are altered without detection. Looks like David Thorn and Evan Mathis were able to trim uncut sheets and get them slabbed by PSA as originally cut in the 1960s/70s. Again, some of these card doctors have been slabbing a 1000+ cards a year for 10 years each. 10x10x1,000 = 100,000 cards just from these guys. And we're not even talking about all the bleaching, erasures, pressing, etc that isn't as detectable from images without before and after pictures.
Again, it's not like all these card alterers were only submitting five cards at a time. Often, the submissions are 100 cards long with only 3 being outed as trimmed. If you want to believe that the other 97% are clean until given visible evidence, you can. I don't live in Fantasyland. |
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They weren't necessarily investing in CU/PSA; they were investing in the stock itself. An odd corollary to the whole buy the card/not the flip discussion. |
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One Billion
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PSA claims to have slabbed 30 million cards. If 5% of these are altered, that is 1.5 million altered cards. That would be $667 per card to equal one billion dollars. And that is not counting problem cards and auto's from SGC, Beckett, GAI, etc. This could easily go over the 1 Billion mark. |
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It so sad but it doesn’t matter one bit. Everything is priced in no prosecution or law enforcement action is going to stop this ........the only way it stops is when the buyers dry up.....period the market will either fix/correct itself or this is just the way it’s going to be.....PSA Auction Houses and Major Registry guys want it this way they don’t want their gravy train to end. So disgraceful but this is the bottom line facts ......I can’t stomach it anymore that’s why I’ve chosen to sell almost all...I feel better waiting on the sidelines to see what happens |
Laurel: "Three million dollars! Is that as much as a thousand?"
Hardy: "Why, man alive! It's TWICE as much!" |
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Not to mention, how many times an altered card gets submitted for grading. With the quest for PSAs coveted blessing, the pop of graded cards is going through the roof!
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Regarding the term "Billion Dollar Fraud"... there is more to it than just the altered cards themselves. Sure the cards alone could exceed a billion some day, if only 1 - 2% of the fraud has been uncovered to date. It is very difficult to research and expose these cards, since eBay hides identities and thus protects criminals. So God only knows how many more have yet to be revealed.
That said, there are other factors that contribute to the $1 Billion number... Massive cumulative Ebay fees taken in on the altered cards Buyers and Sellers commissions received by auction houses PSA fees for grading and continually re-grading altered cards So the tangential beneficiaries in the scam are eBay, auction houses, dealers and especially the profit-based "turn a blind eye" TPGs. All of these beneficiaries are in addition to the owners of these tainted cards. With all of this related "income" factored in, I am confident it will eventually exceed the Billion Dollar mark. That is, unless the FBI can put a stop to it, make the appropriate arrests, and shut down the guilty parties. Since the bulk of collectors don't seen to even know or care, Law Enforcement seems to be our only hope to stop short of the Billion. |
Dont forget PSA and their "inner circle" of passing these cards.
Cu has a market cap of 10 billion. A 10 billion dollar fraud, say it with me now.... |
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Let's just say Multi-Billion up to 10 bil. Hard to even try and make a joke today after the Kobe news. |
Personally I think the 1B number is ridiculous. PSA is only a 75mm company, and more then half of that from coins. Cards, I think 30mm or so. I suspect BGS is much smaller.
It is however hard to swag this thing, but what we know is BO has found 5-10MM in value lift between all sports. And they only have access to a minuscule amount of data - only a fraction of only sales can be worked and most raw, card show, private, set, lot, etc cards are untraceable. So this thing is clearly wide ranging and the number is big. But the guys hyperventilating about 1b need to chill out a bit or show how the math works on that number. |
At the end of the day it shouldn’t matter if it’s $100 or 1 billion dollars in fraud. It’s criminally, morally, and ethically wrong.
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One trillion
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Start with the Gretzky Wagner card - that card has been sold and re-sold multiple times for millions of dollars. That's a pretty good head start towards a billion.
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When prices for doctored cards with high grades are increasing, the people who bought and sold them, generally, are not suffering financial loss. The full impact of the fraud won't be felt unless/until the value of the doctored/overgraded cards collapse. |
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First, they've graded or authenticated over 30 million pieces. If it's an average price of $20 per that's $600 million. Second, what on earth does that have to do with the dollar value of the scandal? If they grade a card that should be worth $500,000 and give it a grade that results in it being worth $10 million, do you think the fraud is just the cost of grading???!!! |
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But, if you have the math on 1b in fraud lets see it. That number is being thrown around as fact. I think folks are over estimating the size And in case anyone is confused I think this thing is big, real big. I won’t be submitting or collecting graded cards, it’s very clearly a racket that skews towards large submitters and dirt bags. I just don’t think it’s helpful to throw around numbers like 1b or hyper ventilate like Chuck does every day here. |
I just look at all this as more reason to stick to nicely presenting mid-grade cards.
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Maybe there's another forum that keeps us riff raff out? Like maybe over at CU? |
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;) |
Reading through the Blowout link, the person of topic actually posted on Net54 regarding his position (or better put: denials) on trimming.
https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...6&postcount=11 |
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When I think back on the waterfront cards I let get away over the years, all I can say is...
I coulda' had class. I coulda' been a contender. I could've been somebody... instead of a bum, which is what I am – let's face it. |
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At the very least, the current owner is a victim even if he doesn't consider himself such. |
Pardon me, but PSA - what does the "P" stand for ?
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Preferential
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Before I go throw up, anybody want to end this craziness, and just give us a working definition of "waterfront"? I've been here a while, and have never heard of the term, either. And a quick search of the term on Google and our forum yields several results, but no definition. Or, is this an ongoing inside joke, like Snipe hunting? :p
It seems, on first glance, to refer to ultra in demand cards in highest condition. That would make sense, as oceanfront property is typically the creme de la creme. Just looking back at the last 50 some years, this would include the Joe Namath '65 Topps rookie, a '79 Wayne Gretzky rookie (the Canadian Oh-Pee-Chee issue), the '86 Fleer Michael Jordan, whatever the most in demand rookie card for Tom Brady would be-maybe the 2000 Playoff Contenders with the on card certified auto. That's one I saw a lot when I started prospecting. What else? The Jeter '93 Upper Deck SP foil card in prime condition goes for a ridiculous amount. I expect the 2009 Mike Trout Bowman Chrome certified auto moves into that category, eventually. I feel like such an idiot having sold mine, but medical bills don't allow one to be sentimental. Going back a bit further, the '52 Topps Mantle and Mays obviously. '54 Topps rookie for Aaron, '55 for Clemente. The '48 Leaf Jackie Robinson rookie. '51 Parkhurst Gordie Howe, whatever Bobby Orr's rookie might be. '58 Topps Jim Brown, '57 Topps Starr and Unitas. What else? If we go back to the era(s) we all love and collect, we're looking at the E90-1 American Caramel Shoeless Joe Jackson, the Wagner T206, the '33 Goudey Lajoie, the '39 Play Ball Ted Williams. Ruth's rookie (I forget, the '16 Famous & Barr?), various Cobb T206 cards, portraits as well as on/off shoulder varieties, the Walter Johnson portrait, '35 National Chicle Nagurski, Ruth and Gehrig Goudey cards, the Cracker Jack issues of Christy Matthewson, Johnson, Jackson-especially the '14 releases which are ultra condition sensitive. Somebody just clarify for us, please. |
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