USA TODAY article regarding FBI subpoenas, doctoring, etc......
 

https://www.usatoday.com/story/sport...ed/1929959001/

Shocking quote from the article: "Messages left with PSA executives by USA TODAY Sports were not returned".

They're probably tied up either dumping more CLCT stock or lecturing collectors on the power of positive thinking.

More than likely
 

They have been told to not talk to USA Today by their attorney.

This article was posted last night, but got out of hand with all the personal attacks and got locked down. I wanted to comment on the article, so I'm glad you started a new thread. :)

I want to examine what Mr. Lichtman said here:

“While there are questions of what constitutes an improper alteration ..."

I agree with him on that one. I think a lot of people have no problem with soaking cards out of albums or to remove glue stains, etc. I think what really pissed people off is the trimming, bleaching, recoloring, etc. Again, we've had so many debates over this and it's not something all of us can agree on.

PWCC has sold hundreds of thousands of cards and the problematic ones are in the hundreds — or less than 1%

He might be right. It could be a very small number - maybe five percent or less than ten. However, the ones that are altered might be the most expensive ones. I put the "might" in bold letters because I'm not stating it as a fact, but based on everything BODA has been posting, it's mostly the waterfront cards that have been targeted here and they are the most expensive ones. This is what I find concerning.

Anyways, can somebody explain more about what it means to be issued a subpoena? So you have to go to court? Does it mean you've been charged or the judge wants to talk to you? Sorry, I don't understand these things well, especially the US Judicial system.

"I've met thousands of people and only killed 17 of them"-- Jeffrey Dahmer

"I've been to 1000 banks and only robbed 30 of them"-- John Dillinger

The less than 1% makes that much sense-- if they were involved or knowledgeable about the crimes. I bet it's probably that Jeffrey Dahmer was even nice to a lot of people, and Dillinger made honest deposits at banks-- but, of course, that's not the point as far as their crimes go.

I'm no lawyer, but I believe a subpoena only means you're being compelled to testify, give information or such. They often give them to mere witnesses or people with possible information. The subpoena phone companies for the phone records of a criminal. Does not automatically equate with being charged or being guilty with a crime.

I didn't see the prior thread. I hope this thread will facilitate civil discourse. :)

Generally speaking, subpoenas are court orders to either produce something (duces tecum) or command appearance/attendance (ad testificandum). At this point, I would bet the subpoenas issued in the PWCC matter are the former, and are for "tangible things" such as documents, electronic records or perhaps even cards themselves. Unless there are grand jury proceedings underway, I doubt there are any subpoenas compelling someone's attendance.

The party served with one can object to compliance, in whole or part, and in that sense can go to court. Also, the party serving the subpoena can request court assistance if there is insufficient or non-compliance.

This part didn't quite make sense to me:

Members of BODA often get “tipped off” to questionable auctions by dealers who want the auction process “cleaned up.” Those dealers don’t want their names attached for fear of being ostracized by the sports memorabilia collector community.

Ostracized by collectors, other dealers? Does either make sense?

This part doesn't make sense to me...

Jeff says, "PWCC has sold hundreds of thousands of cards and the problematic ones are in the hundreds..."

The article goes on to say, "Lichtman said that PWCC has already refunded money to “hundreds” of people who purchased suspect cards at auction..."

So, let me get this straight. Hundreds of problematic cards were sold and hundreds of people have been refunded. Sounds to me like nearly everyone who purchased a problematic card has been made whole. :rolleyes:

First off, if you're a dealer of PSA cards, you can't criticize PSA or bring a scandal to their attention, otherwise you're pretty much banned from submitting to PSA, being on their dealer list, registry, message board, etc. I've seen this happen first hand.

Second, a lot of dealers and collectors who are heavily invested in PSA cards don't like PSA-related scandals. If for any other reason this hurts their income and hobby/investment respectively. Again from experience, I publicly spoke out about PSA card doctoring ten years ago with compelling evidence and I was shunned and berated by dealers and collectors - even though I was telling the truth and had indisputable evidence of the doctoring. It's mind-boggling.

Makes perfect sense to me. I thought long and hard before I decided to speak my mind. There are MANY dealers who like the status quo. If by upsetting them you limit with whom you can do business it can be a tough situation. I'm sure there are some people out there who won't do business with me because of my outspokenness on the subject. Luckily I'm small enough where they probably weren't doing business with me to begin with. The larger you get the more intertwined the business relationships are.

Thanks for the replies - seems really perverted to me that by doing the right thing, you become a bad guy.

Welcome to sports cards. There is an enormous vested interest in the status quo, whether or not it's built on fraud. People have been doctoring cards, enabling card doctors, or looking the other way forever.

Leon, we need a like button on this site!

+1

Choosing Up Sides
 

Team 1: Collectors, Dealers, Investors, AHs, TPAs who publicly admit that just possibly 1% bad apples are getting past

a. the vigilant graders who are doing their best to prevent the hobby contamination of altered cards, but
b. it is the bad evil card doctors at the root of the problem, not us
c. especially not me.

Team 2: Veteran baseball hobbyists who are willing to risk ostracism and access to the Golden Goose because of

a. principles of honesty and integrity, which no longer have relevance in the hobby industry, or
b. just possibly a genuine love of baseball history and its artifacts.

Collectors have been taking sides for some time. About ten years ago Jim Crandall, a passionate and outspoken collector of cards of Grade 7 or higher, convened a meeting at his offices to ask Team 1 about "alterations." Dave Foreman, to his credit, passed around a large hand full of recolored basketball cards with remarkably sharp corners. A naive collector like myself could only gasp. I asked Doug Allen a rhetorical question -- "what percentage of the cards in the average collector's portfolio are altered?" Barry Sloate was the only person in the room asking the really tough questions -- and getting nowhere.

Wish I could've been a fly on that wall.

Choosing Up Sides
 

Team 1: Collectors, Dealers, Investors, AHs, TPAs who publicly admit that just possibly 1% bad apples are getting past

a. the vigilant graders who are doing their best to prevent the hobby contamination of altered cards, but
b. it is the bad evil card doctors at the root of the problem, not us
c. especially not me.

Team 2: Veteran baseball hobbyists who are willing to risk ostracism and access to the Golden Goose because of

a. principles of honesty and integrity, which no longer have relevance in the hobby industry, or
b. just possibly a genuine love of baseball history and its artifacts.

Collectors have been taking sides for some time. About ten years ago Jim Crandall, a passionate and outspoken collector of cards of Grade 7 or higher, convened a meeting at his offices to ask Team 1 about "alterations." Dave Foreman, to his credit, passed around a large hand full of recolored basketball cards with remarkably sharp corners. A naive collector like myself could only gasp. I asked Doug Allen a rhetorical question -- "what percentage of the cards in the average collector's portfolio are altered?" Barry Sloate was the only person in the room asking the really tough questions -- and getting nowhere.

Jim was a regular poster here for quite some time, and of course Barry is a fixture. I don't recall either posting about this meeting though.

It amazes me that someone has the stones to spend $23K & then work on the card.
Too bad it didn't come back w/ a lower (or no) grade :mad:

They had the stones because they knew it would upgrade...

Hi Keith,
Hope you are well. I remember the meeting well, but not the questions.:o

So what was the upshot?

If u cant beat em’...join em’...or leave the hobby?

Here's what I remember: we met at Jim Crandall's office one evening at his Lehman Bros. office, and since Lehman went under in 2008, I'm guessing it took place in 2007. Attendees included Jim, myself, Doug Allen, Dave Forman, Keith Thompson, Al Crisafulli, Frank Evanov, and Michael Sarno.

I believe the gist of the meeting centered around third party grading, and Dave F. brought some cards he slabbed that day and asked us to all spend some time examining them, and then we were to grade them. Afterwards he told us some were altered, and showed us how hard it is to determine that. None of us did that well getting them all correct.

We had some other topics of discussion but I need a little help with them. I do remember Jim bought something like eight pizzas, and they were delicious. I also got into a discussion with Al and he told me he didn't like the Beatles. I wanted to clock him, but since Al is around 6' 10", I minded my manners (hi Al:)).

Maybe Keith or anyone else reading this remembers more of the details.

At the time were you asked not to discuss the meeting? Seems odd that neither you nor anyone else posted about it, unless I am not remembering.

I don't recall it being confidential, and I thought the original invitation to the meeting was posted on Net54 by Jim. And I think he said that anyone who wanted was welcome to come. Does anybody remember otherwise? It was twelve years ago and I'm at the point where I do forget things.

I could be forgetting as well.

Maybe you can search it? I'm disappointed that I can't remember the details beyond the pizza.

Maybe I can jog your memory,

Pepperoni or Sausage?

Thick or Thin crust?

White or Red sauce?

I remember how happy i was when USA today came out and you get could more info on other teams besides your home team. I think Frank Deford also had a newspaper or something that tried that.

Now i surprised to learn that USA today is still in business...maybe its thriving who knows but i didnt even know they still in business until saw this thread

Where were the pizzas ordered from and were they just cheese or did any have toppings. Also were these the type of slices that you had to fold or just stiff. Did you order any of the pizzas 'well done'

Regular Neopolitan, no toppings that I can recall (although I can't rule out pepperoni.)

See post #32 for important details. :)

could you fold the piizza...if not how can you say they were delicious.

I could make a joke asking whether certain people there trimmed their slices, but never mind.

It was a constructive meeting, and I do remember Doug Allen was kind of on top of the world, bragging about Mastro Auctions. And Dave Forman drove me home that night, which I greatly appreciated.

Was the point of the meeting? to show just how difficult it was to catch altered cards ?

I think USA Today survives now through sales to hotels world wide and cruise ships.

I was there, and I did have pizza. Barry's timeline is correct, it was a Net54 thread that I think happened on Thanksgiving Day of 2007 that precipitated the whole thing, and I seem to remember it being really cold outside, so it was likely that winter.

I had a lovely conversation with Barry, who it was a pleasure to meet in person for the very first time (leading off with "I don't like the Beatles" is probably not the best way to make a first impression). I also recall having a chat with Keith, who is a fascinating guy and a pleasure to talk to each of the handful of times I've been fortunate enough to be in his company. Michael Sarno was also there, it was the first time I'd met him and he's turned into a good pal over the years.

If I recall, not only was the meeting not secret, it was pretty widely discussed on the boards. I don't remember how I wound up at the meeting, but I remember being flattered to have been included. Jim was trying to figure out a way to get the bad cards out of the hobby, and while his intentions were good, I remember leaving the meeting thinking that it wasn't going to be possible to fix this from within, because every collector's idea of which people are ethical, and every collector's idea of what was ok to do to a card, was filled with shades of gray.

Aside from getting to be in the esteemed company of Barry and Keith, and meeting a guy (Michael) who turned out to be a longtime friend, as you can see from where we are today, we unfortunately accomplished zero.

-Al

I did a search for Lehman (location of the meeting) and nothing relevant came up that I could see. Oh well.

I was thinking Sarno might have been there too, and that would have been my first time meeting him. And yes, grading and authenticating was the gist of it.

Al- I also remembered you said you liked the Ramones over the Clash, and I kind of was leaning toward the Clash as being more important. See how I remember the silly stuff?

Yeah it struck me as a subtle way of telling people, hey you can probably get altered cards past TPG's

Exactly Scott Was thinking the same thing here

Big Money Players get put on notice first.

I still prefer the Ramones, though I think "London Calling" is the greatest rock and roll record of all time.

Peter, if I remember this correctly, I think there was a lot of derision around the idea that one person could organize a meeting to "clean up the hobby," particularly one who had a collection filled with high-grade, graded cards. But if you remember, the response to that Thanksgiving Day thread was pretty dramatic, very similar to what's happening today, and Jim had great intentions.

At the time , there was a lot of talk from a variety of guys with a variety of ideas, just like there is today. I remember being skeptical that anything could be accomplished, but being flattered to have been asked - and subsequently being surprised to see a representative from an auction house and a grading company involved with a meeting that I thought was intended to be some collectors discussing what could be done.

At that meeting, and also today, my feeling has been the same: if collectors want the hobby clean, they will stop doing business with bad actors. Stop consigning, stop bidding, stop buying. If there's no money in it, the bad guys will leave the hobby or clean up.

-Al

Here's an interesting thread from the past, that includes many relevant people in the recent discussion. Page three gets more focused on doctoring.

http://t.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=83073

I went to my old desk calendars and under December 12, 2007 it reads "Net54 dinner, 350 Seventh Avenue." Would that be it?

Barry, whether the meeting was intended to be confidential or not, I am deeply disappointed that you did not inform this forum that Al does not like the Beatles. That's the kind of info that people ought to know. I just consigned a couple of items to him, and now I have to re-think things. Geez, you think you know somebody.

Al. a decade after this meeting, I guess the conclusion is inevitable -- collectors as a whole don't really want the hobby clean. Even less so now that so many are investors. And as a whole (with some notable exceptions such as yourself), the industry doesn't want to clean itself up either. I should just give up my own meager efforts because the windmill is going to win. Thanks for the perspective, sobering but necessary.

This

If Al was half my size, instead of twice my size, we would have had a different outcome.

Crandall Meeting
 

There were several different kinds of pizza. At the end of the meeting there were at least two left over untouched and mint in the box. Jim said they would be thrown out otherwise, so I took two home. One I gave to a homeless man at the corner of 38th and Park on my way to my son's apartment. I realize now that the only thing he was interested in was hard currency, but it made me feel good. The other I enjoyed with my son, compliments of Jim. I grew up in the depth of the Great Depression, and I still can't bear to see food go to waste. Those who were with me at Barry's New York Net54 meeting at Spark's Steak House a few years ago can attest. With regard to which, I have never thanked Wondo properly for picking up the check. The largest I have ever seen in my life.

Barry did pin Dave Foreman down on the matter of the matter of repeated submissions. My conversations with Doug Allen were private on other matters, like Bob Shawkey's 1927 WS Ring, but Mastro was indeed on top of the Hobby, and Doug could orate from strength. He had to do some bobbing and weaving but managed to leave the impression that a "small percentage" of cards might be altered.

I am a Mathematical Statistician by profession, and I would introduce at this time to the Net54 conversation the perception and psychological value of the "5% level" to the layman's eye that an observed event that can occur by chance "less than 5% under some appropriate Null Hypothesis" is real, and that "greater than 5%" might be, well, simply due to chance.

An example would be when the Players Association replied to Canseco's charges of drug use that "maybe less than 5% might be users." It is still being used today as some kind of magic number that "we cannot control" and therefore okay.

I stand with those who say that a single example of altering offends.

I've been in the business thirty-five years, and while I know there are many passionate collectors who love collecting and love baseball history, what I've taken away is that this hobby is first and foremost about money. And if telling the truth about some of the problems with baseball cards will cost them money, in some cases quite a bit, they are going to fight it to the death.

The revelations of the past few months, which have been known by some of us for over a decade but are now widely known by many, could potentially cost some an incredible amount of money. And those with a major investment will not take this lightly.

Nevertheless, the truth marches on. It's there for you to accept or reject.

The most powerful force I can think of to solve most anything is market force -- people acting in the manner most consistent with their economic interests. How does that pertain here? If and when there is a TPG alternative that through the use of technology can weed out alterations, then to hold value cards will have to reholdered by this new method.

Yes, I recognize that there is skepticism such a new grading method will come into being. But let's proceed on the assumption that it does come into being. It would not then be up to the seller to determine what grading method will create the most value for his/her card. It would be up to the buyer, and what rational buyer would not prefer the card in the new TPG holder, all other things being equal (e.g., player, issue, grade).

What am I missing with this analysis?

Edited to add that what I am saying IS consistent with the notion "that it is all about the money". The incentive to create a new TPG using technology to weed out alterations is because the founder(s) of such a company I believe can make a lot of money. And should that come to pass, then what buyer before spending his/her money on a high grade vintage card would not want to see it in this new TPG's holder?

Sadly I think you're right. Unless I am drastically underestimating what law enforcement will be able to accomplish here, and I think however well-intended and vigorous it will be limited, the unholy alliance of TPGs and (most) AHs and dealers and card doctors will just stamp it out and keep on keeping on. Too much easy money, too many really scummy people, not enough collectors who genuinely care. The ultimate cluster f***.

That was an interesting trip down memory lane. Hey, I took some heat in that thread too.

I disagree with this. I do think they want the hobby cleaned up. The problem is the ability to detect alterations. Once there is a company that can do this at a high rate, I think buyers will want their cards to be inspected upon purchase. Cash is king and the buyers hold all the power. Once altered cards can no longer be sold to buyers, only then will things change for the better.

Speaking as a tiny money guy if I was a Big Money Investor and I was planning on dipping into this Industry after after having studied the last 30 years of the hobby I would believe all the big money in this industry has already been made .....meaning forget it invest in muni bonds lmao

I'm holding on to a wee bit of optimism here...

I cannot recall any "scandal" quite this big within the hobby. I don't think Mastro or Operation Bullpen even came close. And there are still so many tainted cards that have not yet been revealed. Remember that Mastro/Allen and the Marinos were both put out of business after similar investigations.

I concede that nothing has changed as a result of past events, but this feels bigger. I have a slight inkling that the FBI will uncover some of the key pieces to this puzzle, and hopefully come down hard on the key parties involved.

If not, then I agree we are just in for more of the same. "Conservation" will prevail, and no changes are likely to happen (in our lifetimes anyway). This is THE opportunity for change, and just pray they don't blow it.

I think the below link contains information about a pizza meeting in winter:

http://net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=84000

Brian

The word is now widespread that TPGs either suck at detecting alterations or they're turning a blind eye. Has it impacted sales substantially? Or are people still buying like rabbits on Viagra?

Sadly people are still blindingly buying like rabbits on viagra it’s gonna crash just not yet but predict it will

That's it Brian, thank you. So the meeting was in January, 2007. and I forgot about Dan Gantt, who sadly passed away a number of years ago.

Our hope of getting together a collector's organization never got off the ground.

The first paragraph states my impression as well. And, as a fact-based and truth searching person, I have zero respect for those kinds of people. However, those kinds of people are only a portion of the hobby. Anyone who reads this and other boards knows there are many collectors concerned with facts, the truth and, shockingly, accurate grading and authentication.

Happily, I think that facts, knowledge and truth generally win out, later is sooner. When facts become common hobby knowledge, the knowledge wins out. Why? Because everyone knows.

I recommend reading, or reading about, Thomas Kuhn's Structures of Scientific Revolutions.

Regarding their inability to detect alterations...

True in most cases, but I think there's more going on. Many of those trimmed cards are ridiculously short in their holders, and are so obviously trimmed. The amount of air space between the cards' borders and the "frame" is astounding, and there's no explanation as to why those cards passed. Some of the re-touched and re-colored cards are obvious upon first glance. Countless examples of amateurish restoration.

I could go on and on, but bottom-line is that PSA is either...

A. Spending no time inspecting these
B. Is incompetent to perform the one thing they're supposed to do
C. Is granting favorable grades to certain entities
D. Is simply turning a blind eye in many cases

It can only be one, or a mixture of all 4 of the reasons above. And none of those reasons bode well for them. I know that the registry crowd and heavily-invested client base will continue to support them, regardless. But the rest of us should take a stand.

Sorry to ramble, and didn't mean to nitpick the quoted post, as I agree with everything else that was said. But if PSA would just address the damned issue head-on and admit some level of responsibility, it might represent a good start towards fixing this.

In a world when in the middle of this unprecedented scandal Steve Sloan can get up in front of the PSA community and not even mention it, that should tell us something.

I sincerely hope it is going to crash and all the bad people will disappear.

In reality I see absolutely nothing happening. Like has been posted it is all about the $. Nothing happened in any case I can think of. A few idiots got out after the Mastro debacle. The smart scum that gave the collectors the big FU are bigger now than before Mastro got lightly slapped on his fingers.

As far as PSA, they have gave the big FU to collectors for years. The dumb collectors line up and say "please sir can I have another".

I am at the point I couldn't care less about the dumb lemmings.:eek:

No, Yes. But...…...let's see how the picture changes if/when this new TPG comes into being.

The situation reminds me in a way of something my company encounters with commercial real estate. The parking lots are meant for customers and employees. No overnight parking is allowed. Both of these rules used to be blatantly flouted despite signage and leaflets announcing violators will be towed. Then one day/night we started towing. From that point on the rules were followed.

The point is that talk is cheap. And that includes talk about this new fantastic TPG on the horizon. But IMO the actions people are taking now are not necessarily indicative of how they will act once the circumstances change -- which in the case of this hobby is a TPG that will allow a prospective buyer to know if the card is altered.

Corey I hope you're right. That said, I think TPGs are at least capable of doing a much better job now. The incentives apparently lie in not doing so.

Clearly PSA has no incentive. Why would they want to create a method that if successful in detectng alterations would result in a flood of claims under their grading guarantee?

No, I mean no incentive to grade properly now. Their incompetence, or blind eye, or worse, are feeding the machine.

They're making money hand over fist. Why change if via their registry they are the main player in town? Not to mention that any change that doesn't introduce new technological methods to detect alterations will cost them on their bottom line via the need to spend more time examining each submission.

Sadly it seems that everyone wins except the collectors who at the end of the day are left holding their bag of altered crap.

Yes, and also no. Many of these "collectors" are slab collectors, not card collectors. So to some degree they have made their own bed. And the point applies double for registry collectors.

Amen.

Fair enough. And maybe, just maybe, some of the rabbits have stopped buying from PWCC, as if that alone is going to do much either for them or the hobby.

Peter, who suddenly turned you into Eyor? Keep fighting the good fight. You and BODA are, and hopefully will continue, making a difference. What’s the worst that happens.... nothing changes. Thus, things can only get better and there is traction for that - FBI subpoenas, USA Today articles, some “rabbits” like me boycotting certain dealers, etc. And even if grassroot efforts cease, nothing good will come from the defeatist posts- that’s one way to embolden the wolves. Forward!! Or at least not backwards...

Ryan, Al's post today was a sobering reminder that I've been complaining about hobby fraud for more than a decade now and, as he rightly put it, zero has changed. Another tipping point was trying unsuccessfully to get an obviously cleaned card taken down from an active auction. I'm like, what's the use?

You're right, the negativity was counterproductive and too melodramatic, I regret calling attention to myself I was just extremely frustrated by it all and I guess like anyone who is passionate about something and makes a lot of effort, I have a bit of ego invested in it. I'll refrain from now on.

PS the rabbits reference was a bit over the top but I said it and it's been quoted anyway so I'll just leave it standing. Sorry if it offended, but if people don't want to spend their hard earned money on altered cards they really need to exercise some restraint and educate themselves, because the powers that be are not looking out for you.

I'm not expecting any earth shattering changes, but this time somehow feels a little different. In the past we've had discussions about card doctoring, but we've never had the documentation that BO provided, and they did so hundreds of times over. That's a whole lot of evidence to back up the allegations.

Of course people with money and power will do everything they can to deny and cover this up, but the momentum is shifting. And I don't think it's far-fetched to suggest that new technology will be developed to expose all of the garbage that has been slabbed.

It won't happen tomorrow but I believe in the not too distant future we are going to see something change. Yes, we may be disappointed in its limited scope, but I remain guardedly optimistic.

I’ve been called much worse than a rabbit!!

Anyway, I for one, have been very encouraged by the recent press, the attention on chat boards, and news of law enforcement involvement. At least there is some tangible proof of something (not sure what). You are a huge part of that. Thank you

It's always worth fighting for the thing you think is right, even if you lose. Even if you lose repeatedly.

-Al