SPORTS CARD RADIO (anonymus PSA "insider")
 

http://www.sportscardradio.com/anony...-trimmer-list/

Nice article and complete rundown of events as they unfolded and why! Amazing this scam has been allowed to go on for so long.

AND HERE's a nice quote for all you nay sayers

"Still today, I would estimate trimmers account for the majority of cards submitted to TPG’s", maybe 60%

Why don't you all just let that sink in for a moment.

My estimate of 1 billion in fraud is probably a fallacy...It easily exceeds 1 billion, IMHO.

Damn, just wish it wasn't an anonymous source... this is getting uglier by the minute...

Undoubtedly, only a tiny percentage of the true number of doctored cards residing in slabs has been exposed to the light. There's a lotta cardboard beneath the waterline...

Attachment 361143

Brent, is that you?

If this was even 5% true, a new team from the FBI might need to be assigned.

There are some very disturbing allegations in that article to say the least. I'm not an attorney, but I'm very certain that a Non Disclosure Agreement can not be used to conceal illegal activities.

The credibility of this person probably is going to rise or fall on the specific allegation about the internal investigation of a grader by PSA.

That does seem a little high but not too outrageous if it includes all alterations.

Bad......I’ve been saying this for years...there are thousands of altered cards in PSA holders with number grades.

With PSA failing to take any responsibility in this mess in grading altered cards what is the future for them ? I have no trust in their cards? .

The only way I see them changing their tune is if their bottom line is negatively affected...

I go back to the Wagner they never accepted they graded the card wrong....as altered....the industry still thrived.....how much longer can this be blown off?

When will it crash? And I’m not even bringing up the alleged manipulation of those numbers in 2014 by certain AH ....that in itself is total bogus.

The day I’m out is he day this industry accepts alterations.....i have a bad feeling in my gut this is were we maybe headed.....

Too big to fail. (And I'd say were already there.)



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I'm out already and have been for quite a while.

PSA will never redress the damages done unless a court orders them to do so. If the court-ordered redress is comprehensive, it will kill PSA either by financial liability or by industry reputation.

My best guess is that PSA will weasel their way out of comprehensive legal liability with a lot of bad press and card grading will go the way of Professional Wrestling. Some consumers will buy the cards out of blissful ignorance, while the more informed will make some twisted rationalization of indifference - basically because they can't help themselves.

PSA cards will continue to sell because I don't think grading and authenticating are the most important things to their customers. What is most important to collectors is the liquidity the PSA label provides. Even if a card is trimmed or misgraded, if you buy it in a 5 holder you can sell it as a 5 every time. That label is the closest thing to a Good Housekeeping seal of approval, and we all know that a good story trumps facts.

Isn’t that sad Barry ....why is this still true ?? We know their slab label is not accurate .....

Agree 100% I’m glad I’ve sold almost all ......I’m over collecting ....it’s not fun anymore to me.

Industry Leader PSA built on OPINIONS Since Day One......I’m not a lawyer....but to me this is what makes them 100% Teflon UNTOUCHABLE to any Legal Liabilities EVER PERIOD. How Can Any Company Be Held Responsible for Anything When they’re JUST RENDERING A OPINION..... PERFECT.....they do have brilliance in protecting their Brand.

Their liquidity has Distorted Rational Peoples Minds...I give PSA Credit for Being a Masterful Marketing Machine that has made millions based upon A Wonderful Story. Totally give them credit for it.

Until their bottom line is negatively affected nothing will change at PSA

Money.:(

Hard to say if and when a tipping point will come. All I can say is I've tipped personally. At the National yesterday anytime I passed a table with a bunch of graded cards I just kept walking.

At this point I trust raw I can hold in my own hands 100x more than graded. The slab and grade literally mean zero to me anymore and if anything make me think--rational or not--the card's been doctored or graded preferentially, like a 4 for this guy.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...e66052e63d.jpg

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Also no lawyer here, but opinions seem to be a lot more protection on subjective matters. Objective matters should be based on fact. Trimming, recoloring, rebuilding aren't subjective, either they happened or they didn't and aren't really up for a debate or an opinion.

60% ?? :eek:

I hope not...but I fear that could be correct.

I would be shocked if that high, as there are millions of cards. We are talking Pre war too, arent we?

I would believe 60% for altered cards.

It's possible he meant altered but said trimmed.

I've been wondering what would happen to PSA graded cards. But someone probably said it best. They'll continue to sell well. You buy a PSA 5, you go to sell a PSA 5, the next buyer will think it's a PSA 5. That will never change.

I don't own a single graded card, but I'd been thinking about getting into graded. Simply for the fact that whomever tries to sell after I'm gone will have a better chance to sell if it's graded. But every time I go to pull the trigger on a graded card to get started, I'm like could be trimmed. Then I back off.

I have all raw cards, and I will continue to have all raw cards. It sucks for whomever will be trying to move them after I'm gone.

I think that Barry is right here. I truly believe that many many people are more focused on the fact that PSA has created "the coin of the realm" as it relates to selling/trading in the today's marketplace. They are a lot less focused on accuracy and legitimacy.

Not a chance in the world that number is accurate. No way. Not even close. Waaaay too high.

However, it takes only a large percentage of collectors to not take it as the 'coin of the realm' for the values to fall.

I expect values to fall, and there to be a substantial change to the hobby pricing.

Do you see this with only high grade cards? It seems like that is where the split really starts between raw and graded. 4-6 seem to be similar price for raw vs graded - with a small premium for the slab. Or does the tail wag the dog? i.e. the price of the graded card sets the market and the raw is a % below the graded card?

I didn't say where pricing would change, or that it would be across the board.

I expect the changes to happen where the number grade is a major part of the price.

That card was previously in a SGC 50 holder, and crossed to PSA 4.

There was a time when I had lots of T206 PSA 4's that looked like that. Basically I got 4's on anything that was crease-free and without any major damage.

What bugs me about PSA's standards changing is it seems to have affected EVERYONE'S standards. I see some threads discussing condition and shake my head. I'm not even that old, but cards that would've been called EX are being called VG etc. Obviously, with the position I'm in, I've had to adjust to the trends or I'd have a lot of pissed off buyers, but I'm sure this grade deflation has been a contributing factor to the scandal, even if only a small one.

The registry guys have so much money tied up in PSA cards that I believe there will be a shift to an acceptance of altered cards. Especially if the number of altered cards reported is true. Sure, some will leave but it’s never really been about the cards for a lot of them IMO, it’s the number and the competition. PSA knows this and that’s why they’re seemingly paying no attention to this scandal.

This story is just unbelievable !!! This hole just keeps getting deeper and deeper !!!
My 2 cents is this will create a problem for any graded high end, anyone will always wonder about it.

Exactly where I think this is headed.

100% spot on!! I’ve said this from day one ....Registry And to a Lesser extent Pop report Fuel Newport Beaches arrogance and Blow Off nothing to see here mantra.....Registry Has Been And Sadly Will Continue to their Number 1 Money making machine. I’d say it’s been the biggest money maker in the industry.

It’s very sad....If altered cards become acceptable this industry is toast

Not sure I agree with this IF (I) it becomes generally accepted that a majority of high grade pre war cards are altered and (2) the hobby presents another alternative of grading cards whereby it is believed the cards graded by this other method are not altered.

If a new TPG comes into being using technology to detect alterations and becomes the accepted way of grading, then cards graded under the old method will lose value, as well as be regarded as tainted. The registry is to satisfy a person's need to brag. I question how much bragging can be done if that altered 8 is matched up against an unaltered 8, as measured by the different grading slabs the two cards are in.

Let's go back to that cocktail party where a person is showing off his high grade cards to his society friends. In the midst of the presentation some guest in a high pitched voice asks the host why he doesn't have them re slabbed in that new slab the guest saw at last week's cocktail party, which slab was accompanied by that Wall Street Journal article which states this new grading method has a 99% success rate of detecting alterations for 8's and higher, versus the reputed 22% success rate under the old grading methods. Where is that fly on the wall when you need it?

It all comes down to bragging, which IMO is a function of how much awareness people have of the alteration problem and the grading alternatives to detect them.

I agree and was thinking along this line. If the current grading companies do nothing (and that's basically what PSA wants to do), and a new company or used technology and methodology is used to identify unaltered cards, the will change things drastically. Especially with high end cards, the old grades may become obsolete or considered lesser-- especially if and when the new technology and methodology demonstrates that many of the registry cards are altered.

Futher, and as I've said before, it takes only a percentage of collectors, investors, PSA registry people to drop out to change their minds and/or drop out fot the bottom to fall out. And I believe that a percentage of people WILL change their tunes about PSA graded cards.

I believe if there is technology and methodology to identify unaltered cards and those that are altered, then this won't be true.

Side by side, the unaltered version will always be more prized and higher valued, and, in comparison, the altered cards will be considered lesser.

There may be more acceptance and conscious collecting of altered cards because they are so commonplace, but the unaltered cards will become the prized cards, and the altered cards will be considered second tier.

And there will be a taint and questioning of those "high end" collections and collectors who don't have their cards examined by the new technology.

The first time some rich guy presents an unaltered set, and such a set is auctioned off by REA or Heritage or whomever, that will set the new standard. All that all PSA stuff will be questioned and considered lesser.

Futher, many PSA registry people may be collecting the numbers, but once it's shown and generally considered by the hobby that these numbers are at the least unreliable, and at the most false, I think even that number collecting $$ money will change and, at least, soften. There's nothing to brag about if the general hobby scoffs at the numbers.

I think that PSA's current, and usual, approach of doing nothing and hoping it just blows over, will doom them. Because the cows have now left the barn.

Duly note that, even on the PSA forum, many posters are saying they are not buying graded cards, will never buy from PWCC, and or at least delaying buying graded cards until they see how things work out-- and this is from PSA's board.

I really don't think anyone will be able to take on PSA and the registry. Brent was either prescient with his alteration/conservation post back in June or maybe he knew something was coming around the bend?? Tee Hee... Anyway the trend will be towards acceptance of alterations. Perhaps there will be a limit to what will be acceptable but it's coming. Guaranteed. I will also guarantee that if someone at another grading service or a new grading service offers up 99.9% fraud detection in their slabs that PSA will adopt every one of those detections and the new company will wither and die in short order.

The registry drives the money in this hobby.

Putting aside the question of PSA adopting a method to establish that many of their previously slabbed cards have now been objectively determined to have been altered (thus bringing to the fore liability under their grading warranty), there is something called patent protection.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if PSA is already working on it themselves or already know exactly what to do to detect many of these alterations. You do bring up a good point about their warranty though and opening them up to liability. They don't seem too concerned about it at the moment though...at least publicly.

I really don't believe that because nothing is being done now and it's business as usual this story is over. Somebody is going to look at this as a golden opportunity to build a better mousetrap, and to enter the third party grading business with technology that is capable of exposing all of these altered cards. Then anybody who tries to sell an altered card in a slab will find that no auction house will accept it unless it's clearly stated in the lot description something along the lines of "this card was once deemed an 8 but now has been revealed as having the corners built up." As such, those cards will be dead in the water.

Maybe business as usual today, but this will end very badly. And the registry will offer no protection.

Past behavior is indicative of future behavior.....

Agree +1

Beware the Ides of March!!

I marked my calendar.:)

Why does the guest have a high pitched voice? Is this a commentary on registry collectors, or just people who would actually brag about baseball cards at a cocktail party? :)

I hope you are right.

I agree, except I think the altered cards will be worth less rather than dead in the water. Worth less not worthless.

I've long said I thinking pricing and valuation of the cards will change, in various ways.

Even if altered card are accepted, I don't think theer will be the same cache (cash) between, say, a 9 and a 10.

Another question to ponder is, if PSA can identify alterations (someday), how will they treat resubmitted cards? If they are able to identify all the alterations they previously missed, how will the deal with all the misgraded cards out there? Perhaps they hope they are unable to better identify alterations in the future.

If true, you will get something for nothing (the space), but you will lose your shirt in the process.

Think you’re right in the long run but it’s gotta be disclosed and the price reflects that. Comic books alterations/conservation are accepted but the book has a different color flip and the alterations are listed. And the book sells for a fraction of the price.

If I had a PSA card that I wanted reevaluated under the latest grading method using all technology has to offer, the last company I would want to do it would be PSA. To say they would have a conflict of interest would be an understatement along the lines of an example Peter came up with -- a person upon seeing Noah standing on his ark announcing that a passing shower is coming.

For this reason, even if PSA somehow overcomes the legal hurdle of patent infringement and manages to come up with a way to compete with a new company that uses the latest technology, I would think the new company would have a huge leg up, as who in his/her right mind would prefer PSA over this new company for purposes of reevaluating a PSA card?

Some people are saying "PSA will do this," "Registry will do that."

However, if the FBI and criminal prosecutions involving false grading are involved, the question will be how much say will PSA and Registry people in it? PSA may hope "Let's hope it all just blows over and people accept altered cards," and Registry people may say the same. However, if the FBI says these altered cards and the selling thereof (as non-alerted) is a criminal offense, and all these misgraded cards in the Registry are products of criminal or whatever behavior, PSA and Registry won't be able to just ignore it-- certainly not at resale time and grading time.

I think their hands will be forced.

At the least, the altered cards will have to be overtly labelled as altered (How the hobby prices those then is another matter), and PSA will have to address the altered cards. PSA will not be allowed to "whistle by the graveyard" or "grandfather clause" all their past mistakes . . . As I said in previous post, what does PSA now do when altered cards are resubmitted for grading? The now know many are altered, and the now know the FBI is involved. And what does the hobby as a whole now do, with so many people who resubmit cards hoping for a better grade? This all changes things a lot, and not in a way that PSA will be fond of.

I firmly believe that PSA will have to address in serious fashion all the altered cards that they misgraded-- and there a ton of them, involving lots of $$ and a boatload of card owners, including wealthy Registry folk, who aren't going to be happy when their cards are addressed in serious fashion. Tell me how this isn't a problem, or at least a conundrumm (including in a legal sense), for PSA and Registry set owners?

The link in the OP’s post starts with the following statement:

Sports Card Radio recently obtained an anonymous letter from a believed PSA insider.

If what follows is true, involving some significant names in the hobby, it is really troubling. However, given the seriousness of the allegations, I would hope there is more behind it than an anonymous letter from a believed PSA insider. Anyone making these types of accusations should have to disclose their name and explain how they know these facts. Otherwise, reputations can be ruined for no reason.

Do you remember the one-hit wonder song by the group Ides of March?

Somewhere earlier I read a quote from some dude saying
While there are questions of what constitutes an improper alteration
I was like WTF improper alterations???? To me any/all alterations, adding or removing to a card, are Fraudulent and Not Good.
What a downplay !!!! Come on Man....

Are we headed to this

1952 Topps Mickey Mantle 311
PSA Conserved 8

As compared to

1952 Topps Mickey Mantle 311
PSA Restored 8

Oh Right Joe Just Stop complaining...what a crock of Bull S

Maybe just go back to qualifiers and add a couple.

The way as I remembered it back in the day:

OC - Off Centered
ST - Stain
PD - Print Defect
OF - Out of Focus
MK - Marks
QA - Questionable Authenticity

Maybe add these

BL - Bleached
SW - Soaked with Water
SC - Soaked with Chemical
TR - Trimmed
RES - Restored
CA - Color Added


If TPGs have a garuntee and bypass over their QA (Questionable Authenticity) then wouldn't all the wrong assessed grades be subject to something favorable for the customer?

Don't forget rebuilt corners!

No, I don't. I guess I could look it up.

Would it be the 1970 hit "Vehicle?" Never heard of it.

Yeah. The lead singer sounds exactly like the great David Clayton-Thomas of Blood Sweat and Tears to me, but it's not he.

I could see them doing this ......would be a total disaster evaluating pricing Geez what a mess

I think PSA is well aware of what a slippery slope this is. Even if they are coming up with more advanced technology to identify alterations in response to what is going on, I think there will be a lot of hesitation to roll it out. They'll basically have thousands of people who paid $$$ for a high graded card 5 years ago resubmitting and now being told the same card is altered and only worth $ and collectors will demand the $$ difference from PSA as it was their oversight in the first place when it was originally graded. Class action anyone??

I think it is going to take a new company with better technology to take on PSA and dethrone them as king (as least initially until this new company becomes just as corrupt over time and we're back where we started).

The points you raise are prescient, and at the National I had conversations with the FBI about them. The discussion centered around a business model that cannot detect expertly done alterations, yet attracting business by giving prospective customers the impression that it can. At the very least PSA should be required to give a warning about the limitations of the services it provides, much the same way, say, cigarette manufacturers have to include a warning about the health dangers of smoking. Unless, though, PSA felt they would be exposed to criminal liability by not providing such a disclosure, I would think legislation would be required to accomplish it.

I don't know what if any impact the current FBI involvement will have on PSA, but I can say that based on my discussions with the FBI, I got the impression that they seem well aware of the limitations of the PSA business model.

And there is a patent on a new digital , computer based grading system...I've just been wondering if that group is getting ready to introduce it or maybe sell the technology to PSA...

The patent paperwork or link to it was posted here maybe a year ago by Peter Spaeth I believe? Several lawyers out of California and some former Microsoft engineers...

Great horn section too.

On the other hand, the lyrics were awful.

Well, if you want to be a movie star
I can take you to Hollywood
But if you want to stay just like you are
You know I think you really should

The first Blood, Sweat, and Tears, with Al Kooper, was far superior.

Yeah, there's that.
I remember it vividly blaring out of the speakers at the city pool when I was a wee lad. :)

Perhaps from a purist's point of view, but the first album with Clayton-Thomas was great in its own right, with the Erik Satie echoes throughout, etc. The version of Billie Holiday's God Bless the Child was brilliant.

They were both good, so it's just a matter of taste. I have both in my vinyl collection.

This thread has become a bit hijacked. :)

I tired to get it back on track...off the rails again with the lyrics

People are done....

Nothing will change PSA will continue to be at the top... people will continue to burn their money on altered cards in their holders it’s all about the grade...

New grading company won’t happen

Sell sell sell

"Aside those listed here, every major auction I know of employs card doctors."

Its one thing to question auction houses on their knowledge of specific slabbed cards that are suspected of having been doctored, its another to make the accusation that they all actively employ card doctors. This is a statement that goes a little too far and IMO casts at least a little doubt on the veracity of the other claims made in the letter.

Not sure I agree that a new grading service won't happen. A new company trying to do the same exact thing as PSA will fail, because PSA controls too great of a market share. But one doing something completely different, utilizing technology that would, for example, floresce whenever it detected paper alteration, could be enormously successful.

While PSA would no doubt be reluctant to take a second look at cards they graded and admit any problem, a competitor equipped with this technology would be more than happy to take them down. That would be their likely path to a greater market share.

Nothing may happen this week or this month, but this story is far from over. I predict some enterprising soul will turn this hobby upside-down. There is a giant void that somebody is about to fill.

"I'm the friendly stranger in the black sedan" Vehicle

Great God in heaven you know I love you.

LOL so bad.

Are the whales ready to reholder thousands of cards with a new company? Will the new company start a registry? They would have no reason to jump if it doesn't because it's about the competition and the number on the slab. It's going to be so much easier to accept "conservation and alteration".

Call me a cynic, but there is already a certain acceptance of fraud in this hobby. How many years in a row can the FBI arrest or hand out subpoenas at the National? The fake T206 autographs are already in the rear view mirror. Mastro, Allen and Rogers all went to prison, did that deter PWCC, Moser, SSS and the probably hundreds of other card doctors from forging onward with their fraudulent activity? Nope 2 out of 3 of them were set up at the National pretending it was business as usual.

The hobby's white knight, the fiercest opponent of the fraudsters in the hobby who claimed his employment as PWCC counsel would be the best thing for the hobby is already minimizing PWCC's involvement in fraud that likely dwarfs Mastro and Allen.

Yeah, things will change, but not how we want them to.

Yep. REA employing card doctors? Laughable. LOTG? Laughable. I doubt every other word attributed to this "insider".

Tell that to Amazon, they started out selling books... A new company with a new wrinkle will affect changes with the TPG's....

Whatever happened to all of the GAI graded cards? :D:D:D That's PSA's future as I stated more than 5 plus years ago. We will all have so much fun cracking the PSA slabs for the new slab company. So much FUN@!!! I don't know about you guys but I can't wait to crack all the slabs and re submit...kinda like they do now.

I thought that is why they change flips and slabs. Then say how great the new ones are and how there "might" be problems with the older version(s).

He certainly can be called Dicky Licht man. Had great respect for the man at the beginning speaking the truth, but I guess everyone else was correct about his shady character now that he has to be a bold faced liar for his pal Brent Mastro. The biggest criminal this industry has ever seen. I mean what did we expect? it's very fitting actually.

Unless and until there is a grading option that can detect expert alterations, I agree not much is likely to change. But, and this is perhaps where we differ, I believe such a grading option is inevitable. The reason -- if done properly it could make some people very rich. Financial incentive is very powerful, and here I believe it is viable.

I know for a fact some people are looking at it very seriously and significant sums are being raised as startup capital. And if the new model works and alterations can be detected, how can the floodgates not be opened? The money required to effectively market the new company and expose the IMO staggering percentage of vintage high grade alterations will be insignificant compared to the money required for the startup.

Imagine the following. Once this happens this new company is set up at the National with a red portrait T206 Cobb in its "8" holder, and next to it is a PSA "8" of the same card. And next to both of these cards is last month's Forbes's magazine article heralding this new TPG and reciting statistics that out of a random selection of 454 T206 PSA "8s", 78% have been exposed by this new grading method as altered in one fashion or another and placed in "A" slabs. Which "8" T206 red portrait Cobb card do you think would sell for more at that juncture, the one in the PSA holder or the one in the new TPG holder?

The whales can yell, kick, scream all they want, but that will not silence the market forces at play here.

I agree it's hyperbole but it may not be entirely inaccurate. I am sure there are and were AHs that sent cards to be altered.

I hope you are right, Corey.