Industry participants' response to scandal so far -- report card
 

Just for kicks. My opinion, let's see what others think.

PSA -- only thing I have seen is the Sloan letter, which I would grade an F.
Beckett -- is there a grade lower than F?
PWCC -- last thing I have seen is the piece about slandering cards. If they're
making serious restitution behind the scenes then good, but as to their public response, D. (At least they indicated an intent to cut off card doctors, although the jury is out.)
LOTG -- A+. Thanks to Al for taking a stand.
Scott R -- A+ for speaking out and condemning the fraud.
Other AH's and dealers (and sorry if I have missed any who have spoken out) -- radio silence. Very encouraging that you're all stepping up to the plate and offering your perspective and guidance to the collectors on whom you depend. F.
SGC -- N/A as they haven't really been tagged, yet.
Gary -- told NYT he didn't alter cards, only bumped them. F.

I would add to your list that Lee of Sterling auctions has posted on facebook to raise awareness of the issues at hand.

I'm not quite Nostradamus, but I predict SGC will also get an F.

I did not know that, thanks for pointing that out.

For what reason? Or are you just pissed because they are clean.

Why does everyone wish bad upon SGC? They have been pretty clean so far. Wouldn't it be nice if one company was actually relatively good at spotting doctored cards?

They're not really clean they're just significantly less dirty at this point. Maybe a small wax stain which can be removed?

My big regret is that my behind the scenes efforts appear to have gone for naught. It's not 100% yet so I still won't go into detail. But I did work hard at making a difference, which a couple board members can attest to.

Scott that effort may not have paid off but there is another one that may still be viable.

Can't imagine how I could help, but you know I'm here if I can be useful.

Sgc
 

Didn't they Authenticate a whole bunch of fake autos on T206 .
Not so clean.

JohnP

But when they found out, they stopped authenticating auto's. Do you thin PSA will stop authenticating Cards?

We can only hope.:D

SGC also bumped some of Gary’s biggest profits with the 1948 Leaf Jackie Robinson’s... they definitely have a lower quantity discovered thus far, but they aren’t really any better.

Not fair to include the autograph authentication with the card grading (SGC).

Do we include PSA/DNA with PSA's incompetence?

I mean, they can't be exactly equally bad, but it's not definitive from the absolute numbers of grading errors revealed to date that PSAs batting average with the doctored cards is worse than SGCs. I would guess it is, but it wouldn't surprise me either way. Certainly PSA has had vastly more plate appearances. That could be because Moser/Brent knew the cards had a better chance of getting through there, but PSA would also give them a better ROI even if they figured the cards had the same chance of getting through with SGC as with PSA.

If we are paying for a service that isn't being accurately provided why wouldn't we hold them accountable? If PSA, SGC, or anyone else can't tell the difference between a real or forged signature that's just as bad as being unable to distinguish between an altered or unaltered card.

First of all I find all autograph authenticators worthless. Many years ago I sent in some auto's to what was supposed to be the top authenticator. They came back as fake. Yet when I sent these same auto's to an auction house the same guys authenticated them as good. They are a total joke.

I'm not saying they shouldn't be held accountable. Of course they should. I'm saying they're two separate issues. We're talking card doctoring, not autograph authentication.

+1

I don't really think we disagree, although I do think it's fair to include incompetence in one area with another. Both issues are relevant and important.

Unless there are reports that PSA and PWCC haven’t been refunding clients, I don’t believe F and D respectively is appropriate. I could be wrong though.

Sloan specifically said contact the seller, not us. Why should I assume PSA is refunding people? The burden is on them not us at this point. Has anyone indicated PSA refunded them? Has PSA accepted responsibility for ANYTHING? Please.

And how many people have said PWCC refunded them? One guy maybe, or two? Again, with all the nonsense they've pulled off for years, the burden is on them to show their good faith in my eyes. And it wouldn't even be good faith, really, more like desperation.

I have yet to hear anyone vent about not receiving a refund. If PSA was being difficult with victims (many are on this board), I'd imagine we would hear something. Again, I could be wrong, but I'd imagine PSA and/or PWCC are requesting victims sign NDAs.

No, a guy just posted yesterday about a PWCC refund, he did not mention an NDA. Why you would give these people the benefit of the doubt at this point, given all that has transpired, after years of fraud and incompetence and coverups, is beyond me, but whatever we all have our perspectives.

peter do “other auction houses and dealers” know they are to report to you what they have and haven’t been doing? does pwcc know it’s supposed to keep you posted on refunds it has made? I would assume if you are grading all of these businesses, you have requested they keep you informed so you can make accurate assessments and not ones that are just based on what you’ve heard or read in an auction house’s blog post. otherwise you appear to be trying too hard to stay relevant in this mess.

I saw this quote in someones signature line and I think it fits perfectly.
“It's easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled.”

I should be on that list, saying "They're a bunch of bloody wankers."

I look around and see no one complaining about refunds, it's not so much a "benefit of the doubt" as a reasonable guess that people are receiving refunds.

Misunderstood your post intiially, sorry. But leaving aside your stupid ad hominem remark, yes I think these hobby leaders (the other AHs and dealers) should be coming forward like a few have done and giving us their perspective. They're not shy about reaching out when they want to promote their auctions, how about reaching out when there is great uncertainty and people don't know what to make of the situation? As for PWCC, they massively breached the public trust to the tune of 70 percent of this forum not dealing with them. The way to try to restore confidence would be by telling the public what they are doing to restore that trust, not secret payments with an NDA.

Bad stuff gets by them too, and they also won't do anything except fall back on "we were right" when they very obviously weren't.

If that's "clean" I guess we define things differently.

With all due respect to the smaller auction houses, the only statements I'd like to hear are from the Heritages and REAs of the world. The others are not significant in the general scheme of things.

I don't wish bad on them, they may be marginally better at spotting alterations, or simply more cautious about things. But as far as I know they dodge responsibility with the best of them.

And of course, PSA is so bad almost anyone could be relatively good in comparison.

Not Beckett, apparently.

I can go on record saying that Gary Moser, nor any of the other named card doctors have ever consigned to my auction.

I did not know I needed to weigh-in, if there was no issue with my consignors. Apparently judgement has already been passed.


Scott

Brockelman Auctions

i am experiencing great uncertainty and don’t know what to make of the situation. please help.

I will do what I can for you. If you have any Wade Boggs, Roger Clemens, Ted Williams, or Eddie Mathews cards/memorabilia sell it to me know really cheap before it becomes completely worthless. Hope this helps.:D

Nice.

My favorite story is the one I read of a guy who got an auto at a card show, walked over to an authenticator to get it slabbed, and was told it was fake.

Funny but on a serious note on the flip side of the altered card stuff there are lots of those sorts of errors in grading as well, that is, perfectly fine cards that get rejected. The consequences are not as serious, but it can be bad news for people trying to earn money selling cards.

They are not clean. They've authenticated forged autographs and that one is still being investigated by the FBI.

I would upgrade Brockelman to an A for this response.

Yes I agree, I am sure most of us except Ronnie who is self-sufficient:eek: appreciate the response by Scott.

True. I've had PSA reject a card I had just pulled from a cello pack.

good quote peter. hopefully for your sake it makes it into print somewhere.

I enjoy the snide remarks, please do keep them coming, and thank you for your contributions.

PWCC and PSA are making secret payments and securing NDAs? What’s the source for that? And what’s a secret payment?

SGC is being investigated by the FBI? Are they aware of this?

That was Jason's theory. You have to read his post.

http://www.net54baseball.com/showpos...8&postcount=23

But admittedly based on his imagination and nothing concrete. You understand that it makes no sense for PWCC or PSA to insist upon an NDA.

That's been my point, as I have posted several times.

Maybe it is a double secret investigation, has to be a secret if their lawyer doesn't know about it.;)

Oh my bad. I thought you suggested that they were making secret payments with an NDA. And how is a payment secret? Like it just ends up in your account without anyone telling you it’s coming?

No I was saying it would make no sense to do that if they wanted to restore trust, and a few posts before I pointed out there were no NDAs because a guy had just posted about a PWCC refund and did not mention an NDA.

I guess I was using secret payment in the sense of not known to or knowable by the public, not hidden from the recipient, although maybe not the best wording.

I hear you. But without an NDA recipients coukd happily and publicly announce their good fortune at receiving refunds. And the first refund sent out by PWCC or Beckett oe PSA is one more than Mastro et al. ever paid out, even as sentencing was upon them and they had a reason to try to look good for the judge. Every dollar paid by the Mastro gang and their coconspirators had to be dragged out of them via civil litigation or a threat to sue.

If someone is defrauded and their trust abused then reimbursed is that good fortune or just what they are entitled to, I might quibble with the language although I recognize the comparison.

In this hobby? Look around you. It’s a miracle.

Go tell it on the mountain!!

Sgc has been called out for their auto debacle. F


When I inquired with Tyler about a refund of an obvious forgery, with before and after photos, he wrote "since forgery Is a federal offense, you would need to seek restitution from the FBI" to paraphrase the rest; While you are at it, crack the card out and send us the flip, we will reimburse the grading fee.

no, but they are so bad at it or corrupt that they should. Very piss poor company.

65k bump on a 1914 Joe Jackson just posted as well

Given the price disparity in the holders, I am wondering if they go to SGC only for cards PSA has actually caught and rejected?

I have to think so. But then again, they bought cards from their OWN auctions, altered them, and resold through their OWN auctions. Guess they thought people wouldn't catch on

So should we ALL go back to the old days when we graded our own cards?

People like this sometimes have a misplaced sense of their own invulnerability.

Agree Peter. In light of all this awful stuff this year’s National will tell a good bit to me where people stand. We absolutely detest and abhor all these...how many others are slime balls and may think they can get their bad cards passed both companies...how many people don’t know or care?? how many people continue to think psa will succeed and still continue to bring them the most money for their cards in the near future.
The lines at PSA and SGC will dictate the future of how these companies are going to deal with this. Will PSA still have the stronghold ? Will be protest and demand buy backs ect.. Will lines be substantially smaller or the same or hell crazier things have happened larger?

I honestly feel that PSA will still have long lines. Just like PWCC will still have people doing buisness with them. They may feel the effect for a minute.

Sgc
 

Check out the other thread that's going on about
SGC crossing over PSA cards and bumping them a few grades and than tell me how clean they are (Cracker Jack Joe Jackson from PSA 2 to SGC 5 after altering )T206 Cobb etc. Just Saying !

John P

So what is the PSA to SGC ratio on bad cards about 2000 to 1?:eek::D

Probably the same ratio in which they were submitted. :eek:

I'm also guessing it's pretty close to that.

Sgc
 

Don't know the Ratio but SGC is not So Clean in all of this mess.Also the Ratio of fake autos that SGC Authenticated is pretty high.
I was only responded to the poster that said SGC was Clean.i Believe they are not .

I talk as much smack as everyone but Ted on how completely incompetent SGC was on autographs.

I wasn't trying to single you out, your post just fit my reply(agenda:D) about how PSA is WAY worse on grading cards. Seems to me a some are a little too happy to see the few(so far) bad SGC cards show up.

Sgc
 

Believe me I am not happy about any of this. SGC ,PSA, Beckett etc . Just calling it like it is .

In my estimation, no one should be "happy" that any of the TPGers are as bad at their jobs as the cards outed seem to indicate they are. Disappointed? Yes. Outraged? Maybe, Feel like their trust was betrayed and that they absolutely didn't get what they were promised? OK. People and companies are going to make mistakes. That's inevitable. Its how they respond that matters IMO. That's where the rubber meets the road. Thus far, I have seen nothing that gives me any assurance whatsoever that any of the TPGers are willing to step up and clean up their mess. I guess time will tell, but I am sure not holding my breath.

BTW, when I say "mistake," I am not including PWCC. Mistake implies an accident. As best as I can tell, what PWCC did was not accidental. I sincerely hope that PWCC goes down in flames and that its principals spend time in prison.

Thanks Ben! Trying to insult them the best I know how.

I'm not sure what they have done with the other owners of the forged cards. My guess is the auction house reimbursed them, and SGC told the auction houses to go to the FBI, or caved due to the business they send.

I’m not sure about everyone else. I received 8k refund from pwcc. It even covers my initial shipping charges. The OP is rating the “response” only? That is a good response from my perspective. Not glad it happened but glad to get 8k for the cards. I was not asked ever about a Signing a non disclosure or anything of the like.

Cory Weiser

Vcp
 

Where's VCP's grade? I sort of quit following the posts due to work and life getting in the way. The initial posts all wanted to fry Bobby, but I thought that was jumping the gun a bit. I haven't seen anything else about that lately, so I'm assuming he's cleared? And apologies issued publicly by those that wanted to skewer him? Maybe I'll get a beer and try to catch up...

Cheers,
Geno

Incompetence vs stupidity
 

This talk about SGC authention is ridiculous. How did we go from card doctoring to autograph authentication? But ok, I'll play too. Fine, SGC authenticators are incompetent. But the one thing I can say is at least the "autographs" were wet ink. But how STUPID do you have to be to authenticate a fascimilie autograph?


http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...highlight=Cobb

Maybe because it's a response to their "guarantee" which guarantees nothing?

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