Any silver stackers on the board?
 

All these card doctor threads really have me depressed. I think I'm going to take a break from cards right now and focus more on my other passion...stacking silver. Any other silver stackers on the board? If so, how long have you been stacking? What are you currently stacking?

I've been stacking for about 6 years, but I bought my first silver (and gold) bullion back in 2002.

I mostly stack SilverTowne bars and junk silver. But I dabble in other areas too. Lately, I've been on a junk silver kick. With 13% eBay Bucks last week, I purchased 2 rolls of Kennedy halves one day and 2 rolls of Washington quarters the following day. I got $31.62 in eBay Bucks on the halves and $31.04 on the quarters.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/FULL-DATES-...72.m2749.l2649

https://www.ebay.com/itm/FULL-DATES-...72.m2749.l2649

I probably could have purchased them cheaper at my LCS, but over $60 in eBay Bucks made it a pretty sweet deal!

So, any other stackers on here? Let's get a conversation going? Maybe we can learn from each other? Or, if you're not a stacker but have questions, just ask. I'll try and help any way I can.

Used to, but the fake coins got too good. :eek:

Sorry to hear that. I'm not a numismatist, the only coins I have are my junk silver and some ASEs. Aren't there tests you can do on the coins? I test my silver bullion and scrap sterling that I pick up here and there.

I can totally relate. I get the itch to buy silver now and then, junk,uncirculated etc. Lately I've been picking up Barber Halves that have at least a partial Liberty still visible that I usually spend about $10.00 a piece on.
It's kind of nice having a crap load of silver stashed away in various locations

Good luck in your stacking!

I'm not a stacker, nor have I ever heard the term. Would you mind brief definitions of some of the other terms to help keep the ball rolling on the discussion?

Junk silver
Silver bullion
scrap sterling
silver towne bars


numismatist (that sounds like it may just be a word to add to my limited vocabulary :) )


Thanks!

Hello, Tony! Here are my thoughts. I hope others chime in too.

A numismatist is one that collects coins.

Numismatics is the study or collecting of coins. This term is often used for graded coins.

Junk silver refers to coins (dimes, quarters, halves and dollars) minted prior to 1965. Coins minted 1964 and earlier are made of 90% silver. “Junk silver” has no numismatic value. The only value is in its silver content, (but it still has face value too, but the silver value far exceeds the face value).

Semi-numismatics are coins that have both collector value and silver value. The American Silver Eagle is a $1 face value coin made by the US Mint annually, but it’s also 1 troy ounce of silver, so it has silver value as well.

Silver bullion is .999 silver in a given weight. It is not tied to any currency. You can get 1 ounce silver bars, 5 ounce silver bars, 10 ounce silver bars, etc. You can also buy in fractional amounts (grams), but that’s really not cost effective.

Scrap sterling is a term referring to sterling silver in scrap form. It could be broken jewelry, loose silver dinnerware (spoons, forks, etc.) really anything of sterling silver that has no other collector value and it’s only value is in the silver content. Sterling silver is .925 silver. You can usually pick this up at garage sales, resale shops, estate sales, etc. pretty cheap.

SilverTowne is the place that I buy most of my bars. You can buy as much or as little as you like. They offer fast shipping and they have a great reputation. There are other makers and places that you can buy from as well.

Silver stacking refers to the hoarding/collecting of silver. Stackers stack different ways. Some like numismatics, some like semi-numismatics, some like bullion (silver bars or rounds), some like scrap sterling silver, some like junk silver and some like a variety. Stackers also stack for different reasons. A lot are preppers thinking that in a SHTF type of event, silver will be a form a currency as fiat currency will be worthless. Some stack fearing the collapse of the dollar. I can see both of these reasons, after all you can’t just continue to print money over and over and over and expect that it’s not going to have an effect on the economy sooner or later. The dollar used to be backed by gold and silver (the gold standard), but now it’s just a promise that it’s worth what the government says it’s worth. But I stack as an investment. I think silver has great potential. It’s mined from the ground at a 9:1 ratio over gold. There is one ounce of gold mined for every 9 ounces of silver. However, the price difference is 90:1. So something has to give sooner or later. Either gold has to come down or silver has to go up. I’m betting that silver goes up.

yes, but I've seen "circulated" fake Morgans that weigh right on and have the same thickness. They are coated in real silver, but are some sort of alloy underneath.

They are used to "cut" junk lots, like drug dealers add say lawn clippings to their marijuana.

There are a lot of educational videos on Youtube that show how to spot a fake Morgan. Here is one of them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kJrLM7BYYtE

There are other great videos too.

I'm not a numismatist nor a metallurgist, but the easiest way to spot a fake Morgan is by the size/weight. That just absolutely, positively can not be faked. No way.

Silver doesn't weigh the same as copper, zinc or whatever. So, if you weigh a real Morgan and a fake Morgan and they both weigh the same, then one of them has to be different in size/thickness. Likewise, if you have a real Morgan and a fake Morgan and they're the same size/thickness, they would have to have a different weight.

If I were buying a junk lot and there were Morgans mixed in, I would at least test a few right then and there before completing the purchase. If you're making an online purchase, then stick with one of the reputable dealers - Modern Coin Mart, APMEX, SilverTowne, etc. These guys have built a great reputation and aren't going to ruin that with a few fake junk silver Morgans.

Here is a great video how to spot fake silver bullion...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_rjJmGGkNPU

These aren't baseball cards that can be altered in many different ways - trimmed, re-colored, rebuilt corners, soaked in chemicals, etc.

We're taking silver bullion and coins. They're either silver or they're not.

If you're interested in an acid test kit, here's a good one for starters.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Silver-Test...72.m2749.l2649

I do have a few questions.

Why would anyone save silver for when the economy completely collapses?

Seriously why would silver have any value, because some people hoarded it?

If silver is being mined at 9 times the rate of gold what is it being used for? There is already so much gold that has been mined that if any small country was to sell all their gold. It would make it almost worthless world wide.

Is the market only hanging on now because the hoarders are supporting it?

Because that's what the guys on a message board say.
Of course they don't mention if the refineries will produce fuel for silver or be taken over by the feds, cartels or whatever. :D

No, the federal government is holding the price of silver down so we think "money" is currency and we keep our fiat bills. This keeps the lower and middle classes in check and they can simply print more and more paper currency. HOUSE OF CARDS WILL FALL!!!

Geeze, inform yourself already. :)

Good questions, Ben. I can answer a few, but only speculate on others.

Probably a question better addressed by a prepper, but my guess is that people would still have to buy things and silver would be a way to barter if the dollar became useless and nobody wanted it. Many years ago, other countries wanted the American dollar. Now days, they're trying to get rid of it. Why? Silver and gold have been currencies for thousands of years. In fact, in 15 different languages the word silver and money are the same word. Again, why?

Same answer as above but, if that were the case, I'm sure other precious metals would have the same kind of purchasing power.

There are many industrial uses for silver. Here is an article that describes some.

https://www.learcapital.com/news-blo...es-for-silver/

No. Only a small amount of silver is made available to the public. I read the numbers once, but I don't remember off hand. I want to say it was like 10-20%, but I may be off on that. I'll try and look it up though. But most of it is used for industrial purposes.

I found this article online. I only skimmed over it, but it looks like 28% of the annual silver supply is used for investment.

https://www.jmbullion.com/investing-...bullion-today/

Keep in mind though, that some of that isn't held by stackers. The IRS will let you have a self-directed IRA backed by precious metals. The tax laws are complicated for that and I don't participate, but I do know that one of the requirements is that you cannot physically hold the metals. It has to be held by private 3rd party storage companies.

For me, I want silver that I can actually hold, that I possess, not in some vault (unless it's a bank safe deposit box). I don't want a certificate, a silver EFT or anything else that shows I own it on paper. I want it in my possession.

Today's history lesson :D

In 1933, just one month after his inauguration, FDR signed Executive Order 6102 which required Americans to surrender their gold to the US Government. Most did, some didn't. Many people refer to this as gold confiscation, but really they compensated folks at $20.67 per troy ounce. Immediately after the EO 6102 The Gold Confiscation Act, err, I mean the surrender period, came the Gold Reserve Act of 1934 where the government raised the price of gold to $35 per troy ounce, basically screwing everybody out of $14.33 per troy ounce. That isn't much today, but it was a lot back then right after the Great Depression. Ever wonder where the gold in Fort Knox came from? That's it. It also made it illegal for citizens to own gold (other than jewelry). :eek: Wow! Don't believe me, look it up for yourself. Gold ownership remained illegal until 1974 when Gerald Ford signed legislation to repeal HO 6102.

If the government confiscated private citizen's gold once and made gold ownership illegal, what's to say they couldn't do it again? Or silver too, or any other precious metal? If anybody thinks that couldn't happen in our country today, they are sadly disillusioned. That's another reason I stack silver.

Very interesting video for industrial uses...

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4tCOb24fuiE

I'm strictly gold, bullion value only, no numismatics. While I keep about 100 ozs of silver, again strictly US Eagles for bullion purposes, the storage demands of silver as compared to gold are enormous. If any reading this thread want to pick up some info on the topic I would recommend a site: 321gold.com. They have a trove of good articles to read from many different perspectives. Just my personal opinion, buy anyone with the ability to acquire some metal should seriously consider it. It is and has always been a safe haven in times of economic and social uncertainty. Just my 2 cents.

David- I like the idea of having precious metals- I'm probably more of a gold bug than a silver one- but I'm surprised that they've been trading in such a very narrow range for so long. Remember when silver would shoot up to $40-50 an ounce? Now I can't recall when it has traded outside $13-15 an ounce. There doesn't seem a whole lot of interest in gold or silver these days.

I've thought about putting away some precious metals but I don't know if there is any money to be made. I recently started collecting currency, and I have some nice gold and silver certificates, but they are of course only symbolic. You can't get silver or gold on demand any more.

Very cool. We don't have to limit the discussion to just silver. We can talk gold too (or any other metal). I would love to hear what you stack and your reason(s) for stacking?

I'm certainly no one to give financial advice, but I believe everyone should own some metals. For me, it's silver because I look at the potential. However, the first metals I ever purchased was gold, but that was back in 2002 and I think I was paying like $380 an ounce at the time IIRC.

Right now, I just like to upside to silver. Both had highs in 2011 - gold $1917.90 per ounce, silver $49.82 and ounce (within like a dollar of its all time high). Today, gold is $1342.80 per ounce or 70% of its 2011 high, but silver is only $14.82 per ounce or 30% of its 2011 high. I would have to study the history of the gold to silver ratio In terms of price, but as of today it's a little over 90:1. I do know at one point in the late 1700s (I believe) it was like at a 15:1 ratio. But since it's being mined at a 9:1 ratio, then I just think it has tremendous potential. It stands to reason that either gold has to come down or silver has to go up. I'm betting on the silver side. :D

Now David may freak out because they're slabbed, but I think the two coins designed by St. Gaudens are true works of art.

Beautiful coins, Peter. I actually like slabbed coins. I don't collect them, but I do like them.

The gold/silver price ratio is an interesting phenomenon. Traditional metal people will point out the the long term ratio was 16 units of silver would roughly average 1 unit of gold. That has gone out the window for some time now. Again, a rough comparison: when I was a kid and borrowing dad's car for a cruise around town gasoline was about .35 cents a gallon. That's when the quarter was silver. Hence, a 1/4 ounce of silver got you the gallon of gas. Today, that same gallon of gas will cost "approximately" the equivalent of a 1/4 ounce of silver - not exactly of course. The other old story is that an ounce of gold should buy a good men's suit. Historically it does. What's changed? The key is that we are denominating these commodities (like all others) in US $'s, and, without getting in any way political, the bi-partisan crew of goofballs running the show cannot stop debasing the currency (this is a world wide problem).

David:
You asked why I "stack" gold. It is my opinion, based on my investigation and probably as much on my personality, that every paper currency in the history of the planet has failed, eventually. I do no see ours as being a candidate for exceptionalism. If the wheels come off this current state of living arrangements the bad stuff is going to go right through the biggest exhaust fan ever. We need fiat currency to conduct our day to day affairs, but saving in it reminds me of saddling up to a crooked three card monte game. Not for me.
We skated on very thin ice 10 years ago or so - next time, and it's coming, who knows. I mentioned the 321gold.com website in my original comment, and I think you would be interested in another site I take a look at sometimes:
coloradogold.com. They are metal sellers, but I would recommend you click on the "Don's Column" icon. He's the retired owner of the site and he writes a column once or twice a week. He's old school and a character, but having read some of your views on things through the years I'm pretty sure you're going to like where he's coming from.

Teddy Roosevelt was very interested in making sure American coins were works of art, so he commissioned Augustus St. Gaudens, who at the time was one of the finest sculptors in the world, to redesign the gold coins.

David- I agree silver has the potential to increase in value, but we just haven't seen it happen in a very long time. But I can't predict the future, so who knows. I like bags of old silver coins over silver bars, since I am a coin collector.

if paper money fails, how will the stackers go about using the metals to trade for goods and services?

That is the part I don't get at all. There is no way I would trade food or water for some worthless metal.

Thanks for the info everyone. I knew silver took a huge hit when they stopped using it in film. I didn't know if they had found a new use for it. Yes it has been a long time since I knew anything current on precious metals.:)

As far as how would precious metals be used to acquire anything if a paper currency fails (and lets not restrict ourselves to the US $ here) the concept is that before central governments thought up the idea of paper currency precious metals (and other commodities) have been recognized as a "store of value" throughout history, and around the world. Look to Weimar Germany with it's astronomical inflation rate in the post WW1 era, when entire city blocks changed hands for a few pieces of gold. I would never try to cheerlead anyone into doing something with their resources that they are not inclined to do, but the idea that gold/silver/etc are "worthless" is belied by several thousand years of human history. They have always carried value.

Very true. If you research history, it's amazing what just a little gold purchased in time of need.

When I started to buy a little gold, there was a sharp irreconcilable difference of opinion on whether it was best to buy bullion/modern coins with essentially no premium to the metal price or to buy the pre-1933 coins. Many of the opinions, oddly, seemed to align with what the authors were selling. :) But I never got to anything like a consensus. All that said, the pre-1933 $20 gold pieces even in nice grade sell for a relatively low premium to the melt price compared to the fractionals, and they are beautiful.

Some of the silver coins are beautiful too but of course there the value is nearly all numismatic.

I’m hanging on to my sterling silverware, even though it is more difficult to stack than coins.

I haven’t found anyone who will grade my f**ks.

They say that centuries ago the rich were less likely to get the plague because of the silverware that they used. I guess there are healing properties in silver? As a doctor, have you ever heard that?

[QUOTE=vintagetoppsguy;1890023]Never heard that. Rats are implicated in the plague. I guess if you killed your rats with silver forks, the dinnerware could be a factor, but I would dispose of the fork along with the rat in that event. Perhaps the rich just had better mousetraps.

volvos are among the safest cars on the road.

volvos require premium unleaded gas.

buy premium unleaded gas and you will be less likely to be hurt in an accident.

Silver removes various contaminants in drinking water. Just by placing a 90% silver coin in a large container of water it will "purify" it to some degree.

Geeezzz ….

Shiny side out! SHINY. SIDE. OUT.

Yup.

https://www.discoveryworld.us/scienc...ns-antibiotic/

You can inhale colloidal silver in a nebulizer to get it silver into your bloodstream which may have a therapeutic benefit in treating the bubonic plague. The hooker is that you have to have been doing this for several months before contracting the disease.

I guess if everyone starts snorting silver prophylactically (sorry for a haughty term, Brian), demand will rise and supply will diminish, resulting in a rise in the price of silver.

I am not recommending this however.

This is good news for David. There IS a way silver could go back up in price. :eek::D

Don't say that! :D

I need silver to stay low so I can stack more. :D

I remember reading a story about a family who has some kind of genetic mutation that caused their skin to turn blue. It had something to do with a defect caused by silver.

What would be the investing benefit of have a large heavy box of 1 ounce silver pieces in my garage vs. just putting money into a reputable silver investment fund and seeing what happens?

(Putting aside of course the world collapse scenario, where total disorder breaks out, my family is starving to death, and I take one of my silver piece out of the safe and walk up to the last 7-11 open in New Jersey and trade it in for a loaf of bread and a gallon of water.)

Not really an investing benefit, just a peace of mind benefit. For me, I would rather have something I can hold on to, open my safe and look at it anytime I want to, rather than having some ETF or certificate that says I own it. Let me relate it to cards. Would you rather have your cards in hand, or setting in PWCC's vault? :D

If you're not the type that needs to have it in hand (and there's certainly nothing wrong with that), then buy it and put it in a self-directed IRA. At least you would get the tax benefits.

On another note, one of the objections that I hear quite often is that it's too bulky, too hard to store. No, that's not really true.

Good answer; get your point. I wouldn't put a card in the PWCC vault if it was the last vault in America. Tangible is cool. I get that.

What are your thoughts on platinum? See it on eBay on occasion and have often thought about. No idea what the history of it investing or collecting wise.

I can't give an opinion on platinum as I really don't know much about it. I've thought about picking up an ounce or two just to have, but I haven't done it yet. For me, the reason I chose silver is it's industrial uses. I'm not sure what platinum is used for, but I do know it does have some industrial uses, just never researched it.

Platinum has a much shorter history as a precious metal commodity than gold or silver. In my opinion, at it's current value it is grossly underpriced when compared to gold and silver if based on no other criteria than it's scarcity. Numbers indicate that it is mined at a quantity 15x or so less than gold. The only platinum national mint coin that I am aware of is the Canadian 1 oz Maple Leaf. A beautiful coin. There are quite a multitude of platinum bars offered by different producers. It just doesn't seem to have the cachet, or "safe haven" status among precious metal "stackers" that gold and silver possess. Speculation with it is of course possible without taking physical possession of it. Personally, I think it has a high probabilty of increasing in value and a very small downside risk. Do I own any? No.

I've looked into it. Very volatile was my impression last time I did.

US Mint produces platinum coins.
https://www.apmex.com/category/31100...merican-eagles

Was not aware of that. Thanks for the info.

Guys, one more ? on this kind of investing/collecting if you can bear it. . . . .

In looking at titanium, there seems to be a real differential between a 1 ounce bar and say a 1 ounce US mint coin. If you want to dip a toe in this is, is there really any reason to buy some 2018 US Mint coin? Is there really a market for these recent coins, whether Canadian, US, S. African or anywhere else, above and beyond the metal itself?

[I realize of course that vintage coins like a St Gaudens gold piece merits a substantial premium over the price of the raw material.]

There is some collectible value to the coins, and even more for the graded coins. Most experts I have read say just buy metal though.

This. The premiums on most coins are hard to recoup when you go to sell...not always, but many times.

David- I have a question, maybe you can answer it. Last year I had a gold chain I wanted to sell. I calculated the actual value of the gold (I know how to do that), and offered it for 90% of that amount. I put it on BST, and my wife listed it on ebay and I think on etsy.

We didn't have a single inquiry anywhere. So how cheap do you have to list a commodity to make a sale? I know nobody pays full value- if I bring scrap gold into the diamond district in Manhattan they pay at most 70%, if that. Wouldn't you think 90% of face would work? I assume if I offer ten dollar bills for $9 each, business will be very brisk.

Barrysloate: There are several coin shops in Bergen County, NJ (Oradell Coin is 1) that will pay full spot for gold. There is a substantial "middle" between the spot price and the ask retail price. Plenty of room for them to make money. I'd say the middle is about 5% - or currently over $60.

Numismatic/bullion: As David said it is often difficult to recoup the premium paid for a numismatic coin as opposed to a bullion coin. Not always. There is also the idea that in buying a numismatic coin as a relative layperson that you can be had by unscrupulous sellers, and they are out there. Not a lot different than the baseball card market in that respect - see our current travails.

Peter: Although I know zilch about Titanium, on many of the precious metals that are sold the nation state mint coins can often demand a premium over bars and other forms. I have never purchased other than minted coins of different countries, but know of folks who have had to have their bars, etc. assayed before sale to satisfy the buyer that they have not been tampered with. Kind of a potential hindrance to a quick transaction. I suppose that coins could be hit too, buy my reading of the market is that is much less likely.

That's interesting, but everybody should pay around the same. One area can't overpay or pay more than another.

What 58pinsin said.

Maybe there was an error in your weight/purity calculations where you thought it was worth more?

While I'm sure it seems counterintuitive, it is exactly what happens. Although it may seem hard to believe there are actually people who put gold items in a bag/box and mailed them to TV ad/scams and received checks for an abysmal percentage of their worth. Walk into any mall in the US and there are kiosks that will offer 50% or much less of spot. It's just that many folks who decide to sell spare pieces of gold are not that informed and are preyed on by a merciless marketplace.

I think the bottom line is that there are just different competing business models. The reputable coin store that is based on and content with making a fair profit, been doing it for a long time, and actually wants to have repeat customers. As opposed to the bottom feeders who are in it for as long as it lasts and will push any advantage they have to the hilt and pack it up when the party's over and people wise up or word gets out. Then again, all that's just my personal opinion.

Your mentioning the lack of success you had when trying to sell some gold doesn't surprise me too much. There is only a miniscule percentage of the US population that owns or has interest in owning gold (or silver etc. for that matter). I recall a video I watched on Youtube a few years ago where a social researcher stood in front of a coin store in California and offered passersby a 1 ounce Canadian Gold Maple Leaf (face value of $50 for legal reasons) that had a current spot value of $1,500 for $25. No takers. Wish I'd have run into him.

There was another recent experiment where passersby were offered a silver bar or a chocolate bar - their choice. Not one took the silver bar IIRC.

My understanding, or at least assumption, is that bars and rounds and such from major sellers like Apmex, Silver Towne Mint, etc. are presumed to be the real thing and are liquid without any testing.

I think you basic assumption is correct Peter. Especially when considering the smaller pieces. I have never dabbled with non-mint struck metal and my information is from acquantainces who have had issues. From what I understand the larger the bar (usually) or piece of silver (usually) the more likely the buyer would have qualms about not getting it assayed. A lot of funny business can go on with a 100 oz. bar of silver if in the hands of someone not on the up and up.
There would be counterparty risk in a situation like that, IMHO.

I did not mean to intimate that the premium associated with state minted coins over plain bars is due to verification - I am sure they are simply more expensive to produce. Just that anyone who walks into a coin dealer with a 100 oz silver bar and plunks it down on the counter is likely going to have a different experience that if they bring in 5 US mint silver eagle tubes.

The silver eagles are certainly beautiful; the obverse is of course a reproduction of the Walking Liberty half dollar which is gorgeous.

Here is how I calculated it, so if you think I made a mistake please tell me:

First I weighed it on my O'Haus gram scale, and it weighed between 25 and 26 grams, so I called it .9 of an ounce for convenience. I multiplied that by the price of gold, which was around $1300 at that time. Then since it was 14K, I multiplied that by .583, since it is 14/24 pure. So I got:

.9 x 1300 x .583= $682 worth of gold. And I offered it for $625.

I also have a gold testing kit, with the acid bottles and the black stone, so I know how to test it too. Were my calculations right?

Keep in mind that an ounce of gold isn't measured in regular ounces, it's measured in troy ounces. There are 28.35 grams in a regular ounce, 31.10 in a troy ounce. So, let's say you had 25 grams of gold, really that's only .8 of a troy ounce, not .9.

When I do the math on my calculator, I get $609.24. When I use this scrap value calculator, I get $609.52, so very close.

http://coinapps.com/gold/14k/calculator/

Thanks David. I never knew about the use of troy ounces. I know there are twenty pennyweights (dwt) to an ounce, but don't know exactly how to use them in calculating.

Gold spot hit $1380 this morning, highest in five years. I believe our discussion on this thread is the main reason for the steep rise.:)

Not really, there are a ton of really good fakes out there from every company. I recently saw some really good fake 1oz silver bars from silver towne.

Right, but just to clarify, the bars aren't coming from SilverTowne, they just have the SilverTowne logo. I linked a good video in a previous post, but here it is again. Some fake MCM bars and how to spot them (or any other fake bar).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_rjJmGGkNPU

Correct, I worded it wrong. Fakes with the silver towne logo on them.

Check out this $20 bill from 1960. What does "REDEEMABLE IN LAWFUL MONEY AT THE UNITED STATES TREASURY, OR AT ANY FEDERAL RESERVE BANK" mean?

What is lawful money? Wasn't this $20 bill lawful money?

If so, how can you redeem it for lawful money if it's already lawful money?

I have no idea what it really means. I can guarantee I would take a $20 bill over a chunk of silver worth the same any day of the week and twice on Sunday.

If I take 2 $10 bills and buy a $20 bill I have $20 at any point in time. Now if I take that $20 bill and buy silver I immediately lost value/money.

David- I believe that $20 bill is dated 1950.

Interestingly, while any $20 will purchase $20 worth of goods, in the late 19th-early 20th century consumers had more faith in gold and silver certificates than they did in federal reserve notes or other forms of currency..

It's a series 1950. The "lawful money" clause is one of the steps to the full fiat currency we have today. The earlier Federal Reserve notes were redeemable in gold, which changed with the series 1934 notes since FDR made gold ownership illegal. "Lawful money" in this case would be silver. Now they're just paper.

Thanks, Don. It may be a 1950. I pulled the image from eBay and the seller's description said 1960, but they may have mistyped. I'm not familiar with paper currency.

Either way, it was a rhetorical question. I knew the answer. I wanted to see who else knew and wanted to spark a conversation. Your answer is correct. It was one of the steps to a fiat currency system.

However, that's not what our forefathers intended. In fact, they were very much opposed to paper currency. Shortly before Washington's second inauguration, Congress passed the Coinage Act of 1792. They intended for our currency to be in the form of coins which were made of 90% gold and silver. The value of the coins were based on a fixed price of gold and silver. There was no fiat currency.

This worked great until the Civil War when Lincoln started issuing promissory notes to pay the union soldiers. That's was the start of the fiat currency system that we have today. However, our currency was still tied to gold and silver reserves for many years later.

So what changed to bring us into today's fiat currency system? What is our money backed by today? Why aren't coins still made of real silver and gold anymore? Who is going to pay our 23 Trillion dollar debt? Can our government just keep printing money over and over and over again and expect everything to be ok? Something has to give, right?

Whether it's a 1950 or 1960 note, y'all really need to take another look at the wording on that $20 bill and open your eyes to what it happening in the US with our fiat currency system. If you still don't know, just ask someone from Venezuela what happens when the paper currency becomes worthless.

Glad to say that my wealth lies outside of the banking system.

Are people in Venezuela trading each other precious metals for food and water?

I'm sure there are many ways to barter.

I can't see trading someone food for silver or gold unless I've got access to some kind of enormous stock pile or insider information on when the shortages will end. Like others pointed out, you can't eat or drink silver and gold.

Why would there be a shortage of food and water? That makes no sense. My point is that no one will want the currency if it is worthless. Food and water (and other supplies) will still be available, it's a matter of what it's going to take to acquire them.

Silver and gold has been used as currency for thousands of years.

As I pointed out, the words "silver" and "money" are the same word in many different languages.

As was also pointed out, you could purchase an entire city block in Germany for an ounce of gold right after WW2.

You brought up Venezuela, a place where hyperinflation has consumed all currency and created a shortage of food and water. I don't know how much food or water a person can expect in exchange for gold, unless the people with gold have some kind of unfettered access to basic survival staples.

I don't know where the block of land for an ounce of gold story comes from. I've never heard that before.

I'm not going to try and convince you. You can believe what you want to believe. The US is in 23 trillion dollars worth of debt and that number is only growing larger. The printing presses at the mints are running overtime. But, hey, if you don't see a problem with that, ok.


It's true. But let me give you an example that may hit you closer to home. What was Manhattan purchased for? Come one, tell us? :)

I'm not challenging what our debt is, I just don't see how precious metals are going to become more valuable than food or water should hyperinflation create shortages in them.

I'm not sure how purchasing Manhattan relates to anything being discussed re: hyperinflation or the role precious metals would play in a new economy where basic survival staples need to be secured in place of currency. Is there a source for the story about Germany?

The question of why someone would trade food or water (or anything elso of value) for worthless metals has been brought up several times in this thread, most recently in regards to Venezuela.

Let me imagine that I am in that country now and in the business of selling food. The current exchange of the Venezuelan Bolivar to the US $ is .10 cents.
If someone has 1,400 of these jelly beans (I mean VB's) that equates to approximately $140 US$ in purchasing power. If someone, on the other hand, has a one ounce gold coin, that equates to $1,400 US$. If you are the vendor and your business is selling a commodity (in this case food) would you rather accept paper currency that is in a state of extreme flux or a gold coin that is recognized as having a store of value everywhere in the world for centuries? I want the gold coin everyday of the week and twice on the proverbial Sunday. Not when everything is going smoothly, but when the bad stuff hits the fan. There is no longer any confidence that the paper you accept today will have anything like the same purchasing power tomorrow/next week. When paper currency is reduced from a state of fiat currency that prevails as long as the users have confidence in it's issuer, into a blatant out of control street hustle con game it loses it facility to carry out day to day business transactions. Just my take on things, I am perfectly amenable to everyone holding their points of view and realize that I am in a distinct minority in the USA (at least for now).