Its not just moser/pwcc...more trimmers exposed
 

They have outed several on the modern side.

There are others on the vintage side who don't have the paper trail too.

From a pure business standpoint why would PWCC want to be linked to known card doctors who I believe are committing FRAUD?????? I think altering a card and misleading a potential buyer should be a punishable felony.

As long as they're getting through PSA these guys can buy the cards through multiple Ebay IDs and sell them through any auction house. The only way to stop this is to figure out how or why so many doctored cards are making it through. Especially the modern trimmed cards which should be easy to measure.

If anyone has been thinking about starting a third party grading service now may be the time to do so.

Yeah, the only possibilities I can think of are incompetence (can't detect it), negligence (not putting in the effort to detect it), or corruption. But I don't know how we figure that out. Not long ago I would have said, the card doctors are just too good now, but based on what I am seeing on Blowout it's hard for me to believe that's all there is to it as some of these cards seem blatant even without the before photos.

Brent is not a victim of Moser, he's a co-conspirator. There's a reason why he only sells through Brent.

That may be true. But he doesn't need pwcc if he can get his cards through PSA. Any Ebay consignor or auction house will take the consignments. Especially if they're submitted under a different name.

People seem to think Brent is the one submitting the cards, though. And there are plenty of people who would not take cards from him.

Correct. PSA's multiple failures are the bigger threat to the hobby.

This widespread problem transcends PWCC. As long as the "card modifiers" continue to dupe PSA, these issues can and will rear their ugly head potentially anywhere.... eBay, Auction Houses, net54's BST, direct sales, trades, etc.

And why can't PSA just measure the cards, again? Has there been any response from them at all? It will be interesting to see if they ever acknowledge it, and how much their attorneys spin/downplay it. The power they have within the hobby is disgusting and shameful, and I wish that someone, somehow, some day could take them down.

Yet Moser almost exclusively uses Brent. I’m sure it’s just a coincidence as opposed to Brent being a full co-conspirator which could not be more obvious.

The scariest part about this is how he's doing it on such low $$ cards.
If you go through THAT trouble for cards under $300....yikes man. YIKES.

All because of the registry crazies...its their fault!

Have every graded card measured to the exact “...“ And put that measurement on the back of the label in small print. If it doesn’t measure correctly but is within a graders tolerance, the buyer can determine if that is ok.

This is definitely a good idea and hopefully will be used in the future by the next...newest...best grading service!!!

Assuming that's true, it doesn't appear likely that relationship will continue if pwcc wants to stay in business. So where will the cards go next? Someone will submit them, and someone will sell them. I'm much more concerned with what's going on at PSA than how involved Brent is. It's easy to avoid one auction house or Ebay if necessary. But pretty tough if you can't trust any PSA graded card.

+1...

Jesse, I hear you but Brent will keep on rocking on...You know why? EBAY (they don't give a f***) I know I'm not hitting on your initial response, but this in a nutshell is what all of this is about....

Overly optimistic. Now that they know how they were caught thy won't make the same mistakes again, which is why law enforcement needs to get involved.

I’m not concerned about Brent staying in business. I’m concerned about him going to jail. You can worry about PSA.

Feels like Mastro and Allen all over again.

Are you a betting man? I'll give you 3:1 odds he's not even indicted, much less goes to jail.

3:1 odds. You in?

Doug and Bill were probably a longer shot when all that was getting going.

I just think it would be really, really hard to prove that Brent knowingly accepted doctored cards on consignment. And even if you could prove it, I'm not sure exactly what you would charge him with? Wouldn't part of his defense be that the industry's most trusted third party authenticator said they were good?

I'm not defending him, just saying it would be really hard to get a conviction.


Oh, what the hell. 4:1 odds. Jeff?

I’m in.

:)I told you before David, wire fraud. And if you read all the material on Blowout you might change your mind. There's an incredible fact pattern emerging. If you'd rather play ostrich and pontificate, that's cool.

We have to have a time limit. What do you think is fair?

Are you just talking about a bet on knowingly being part of a conspiracy which involves selling altered cards or is shilling part of the bet too? Because if the feds do look, I suspect that they will look at both, and maybe some other stuff as well.

Tip of the iceberg. It’s gaining momentum. Even the doubters and supporters from the early Blowout threads are turning as they realize ALL graded cards are suspect.

This will be one heck of a National.

I don't think they'll have to look very far on the first prong, based on what I've seen on Blowout, and elsewhere.

I'll make it easy. Any conviction at all. I don't care if it's for unpaid library fines. :D

Edited to add: But there has to be a time limit. Within one year?

An indictment is not a conviction, nor is a year a realistic timeframe for a federal investigation.

I am guessing the low dollar cards are used to practice and test what gets graded and what fails so he can have confidence the big dollar cards will get through.

That may be, particularly if he wants to test a new method or instrument or whatever. I imagine some of these guys are quite meticulous in their work.

I'm not sure they'd have to look very far on the second prong either. I was just trying to establish the parameters. :D

Right. My bad. I said indictment, that's the bet.

If a year is not sufficient, why are people so concerned about the upcoming National, as if something big (arrests is what I believe was alluded to) is going to happen there?

I have no idea, you'll have to ask them. Maybe they're expecting to see some confrontations with PWCC, Beckett, PSA, etc. Maybe by then subpoenas could be served. Not sure.

It's, to me, very similar to a situation in poker a few years back where a previous WSOP Main Event winner was founder of a poker site that was later discovered to be actively cheating the players by giving him and anyone he designated super-user status where they could see the other players cards.

By the online reaction you'd have thought He would've been risking death if he showed his face at the WSOP ever again. When he did there were a few snide remarks, but the internet vigilantes were, amazingly, nowhere to be found.

This has nothing to do with law enforcement issues, but with the internet muscles that people think will lead to live confrontation at an industry event.

Fun facts...you guys realize there are over 10,000 members on Net54 and hey guess what? I see the same handful of guys talking about the same thing on multiple threads. It’s very possible the other 9,990 members have differing opinions. So where is this going to lead us...I’ll give 9,990 : 1 odds that someone starts another thread related to the same topic. :D

Take a vacation and enjoy the rest of your holiday weekend!

Martin, you’re aware that trying to stop discussion about Brent’s fraud wouldn’t stop a criminal investigation, right? Just checking.

Come on, Martin is all sunshine and roses.

Trimming
 

Most of us who belong to Net54 are content with our low grade raw T206's and T213's. My guess is that there are only a few dozen people on this forum who give a rat's ass about a trimmed $5000 Giannis rookie.

Thats a good point. Ive been collecting since the mid 70’s...ive never been too condition sensitive in my collecting...sure i like a crease free card with decent centering. This is where my condition discrimination ends. My meager collection brings me happiness and wont be much affected by a grading scandal. Im a manchild of principles...i have a high moral compass. Thieves/crooks should be
Punished if/when caught. This is where i stand.

Hopefully, more people here care about the VG 3 Green Ruth, Psa 1.5 to 2
T227 Cobb, and the Red T206 Cobb that went from 1.5 to 3 that have been
shown as possibly bad on blowout. These are just a few I found this morning.

Who is this Giannis you speak of? :confused:

Exactly. We can claim that it's only rich assholes who care about altered cards here but the low grade ones are getting altered as well. The fraud affects the entire hobby, like it or not.

You're confusing what happened at ultimate bet and absolute poker with the full tilt scandal. Full tilt basically stole player funds and didn't have the money to pay players when the government effectively made these sites illegal in the US. Furgeson and Lederer are believed to be involved but did not have access to anyone's hole cards.

He’s the Milwaukee Bucks 1st team All-NBA Forward and MVP frontrunner. Modern basketball, his rookies included, are some of the hottest cards on the planet.

Oh, I see. I'm sure he, Lew and the Big O make a very formidable "Big Three". :)

Anyone here buy this psa 6 leaf Jackie?

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=1852

ouch
https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=1866

Not confusing anything. My entire post was about Russ Hamilton.

I think Brent was part of the 'buyer's club' that ran/shilled prices up. Why? To give an appearance that PWCC cards command higher prices. PSA was pushing heavily on advertising these record prices, too.

When the buyer's club was outed, Brent went of defense and made some posts to try to clear the air and do damage control.

Then came the next best thing: PWCC assigning grades to already graded cards. It was ludicrous, but I guess it worked as it kept the premiums coming.

Now an altered '52 Mantle exposes hundreds of other altered cards and trimmers and there is an apparent connection between one of them and Brent.

Brent again goes on defense, possibly knowing the level of fraud that took place and wanting to get ahead of it goes on record trying to link/normalize it to restoration and conservation, which it is not.

The common denominator here is Brent/PWCC.

If anyone on the Blowout forum is reading this, please look into the Topps Bobby Hull rookie, Topps/OPC Wayne Gretzky rookies, and 1989 Topps Joe Sakic rookie. There have been some phenomenal examples come to light in the past three years offered by PWCC. The 1989 PSA 10 Sakic stayed at a POP 2 for YEARS and then suddenly got flooded. Hull (a notoriously OC card) has had some clean centered ones slabbed in this time, and the Gretzky cards have been graded with too nice of edges.

I didn't realize he played the wsop again. I know no one was pleased when the full tilt guys showed up.

That's a lot of border trimmed off.

Yeah let me change ouch to my preferred word these days. Mercy.

Russ has no conscience. While what Howard and Chris did was bad too, they at least expressed remorse for basically not paying enough attention. Whether you believe that was their only level of culpability is another story entirely. But yeah same idea, "Oh if they ever show their face they're gonna get their asses kicked" or reality which was a lot of people mumbling under their breath.

I sent this along.

Agree with all, but in bold

Everyone should be worried about this. It affects the very reputation of the TPG who grades or graded YOUR cards. It's a direct negative reflection on the integrity of EVERY PSA and BGS graded card. If they can't or won't catch alteration, what the hell good are they. This renders third party grading essentially useless, beyond card protection. You can't trust a grade. If you aren't worried, your'e oblivious. Every card now carries a stigma of possibly being trimmed by these criminals. Criminals who have been handed a means to commit fraud by TPG's not doing what is supposed to be their core objective.

Not worried, just startled.

Long holiday weekend allows for reading every Blowout post.

So, we have a handful of trimmers who ONLY deal in grading and selling their handiwork. Looks like over 30,000 cards so far when Block is included and using submission data. Averaging about $1,000 per card in sales. Over $3 million in fraud sales and growing. That has to affect everyone at some point.

And let's not forget this has been going on since the 90s. They're only uncovering a bit of the most recent layer.

This was just posted on Blowout from the most recent National. Notice the top and bottom names.

Probably a coincidence on Moser.

Although, if they have that board running again this year, it would be really smart to take a picture of it every couple of minutes.

Could be a good way/opportunity to photograph the bad doctor!

Yeah, a good sized chunk of cardboard fell to the cutting room floor. And it's a really bad trim job, at that...

Look at that awful, obviously altered right border. Nice job, PSA :confused:

Is that board really legit? I thought Matt Miller was banned from subbing to PSA. Not for trimming, but a beef he had with them involving a card that they damaged during grading.

The more I read about this the more I stew about PSA. What kind of crap are they putting out as unaltered. I see there is no reply from them about any of this. They will just wait until it blows over and then continue with the same nonsense. What a friggin joke they have become.

I remember reading on 2+2 about the scathing dirty looks Ferguson and Lederer received when they showed up at the WSOP. ;)

They won't reply...

And their failures (whether it's pure ineptitude or "favorable" treatment) are much more dangerous and further-reaching than PWCC.

The only way they'll reply is if it somehow trickles over to CLCT and investors/analysts.

I HOPE they are doing something internally about this, surely they do or will perceive a threat to the brand and that should motivate them.

Good golly Miss Molly.
https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=1925

Terribly graded imo the 2nd time around with that huge crease.

Who owns that green conby??

My god. That card is COMPLETELY "restored". How can a card be a 3.5 if it's been cut, flattened, soaked, erased, etc. PSA has some explaining to do. This is criminal.

I'm looking at this from my cell phone so I don't have the advantage of large scans, but that top left corner looks rebuilt from what I can see.

As John pointed out, it has undergone significant .... what's the neutral word --- work.

Fixed it, after checking the PWCC thesaurus.

Thankee.

That green Cobb exhibits perhaps the most "work" of any of the exposed cards, to date...

With regard to the original, all 4 corners exhibited significant corner creases (in addition to the obvious corner wear). Yet the creases have all seemingly vanished in the "worked" version. Not to mention the cleaning, rebuilding, etc.

Very discouraging. :(