1936 Joltin' Joe
 

Does this look like the same card? Especially from the backside. What would make this jump from a SGC 5 to a 7?

https://www.robertedwardauctions.com...maggio-rookie/

https://sports.ha.com/itm/baseball/1...tPosition=40|0

Thinner borders lol....appears to be same card.

I think it is the same... looks like someone cleaned it up a bit. Yikes!! This is bad!

The card on the right appears to be smaller :rolleyes:


Thanks...I'll be here all week.

I'm not saying it's a rigged game, but the person sending it in can make a big difference.

Unless it's been "enhanced" the corners on the 7 are much nicer.

Has it been trimmed? The Heritage scan can be blown up pretty far and I don't see anything really off about the edges. If it's been done, it was done really well.

This does not appear to be a case of the person submitting it the second time getting a higher grade. Based on the backs of both cards they are the same card however the corners are much sharper on the SGC 7. Appears to be an altered card.

Good find to the OP and it is amazingly (scary) what can be done to cardboard. Makes me wonder just how many cards in my collection were in much lower graded slabs at one time.

Thanx, when i spent the day yesterday jacking the price up on it.

Good catch! Notice how the one spot along the edge is missing.

It's a real shame what has happened to two of these beauties, makes you wonder about the rest of our cards.

http://www.net54baseball.com/picture...ictureid=26644

Is this different from the infamous altered PWCC one from a ways back? Or was that gehrig???

It's difficult to enlarge the REA image, but it is the same card.

Great catch. It’s a real shame someone took a really nice card and turned into an altered card in an SGC 7 slab. Boo on SGC as well.

Just a suggestion, but maybe change the name of the thread to something making it more obvious that an altered card is being called out - you probably get many more eyes on the thread.

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...234837&page=36

soon its gonna be tough to find an unaltered joe d 36 goudey!

That one was cleaned not trimmed I believe.

thats a lot of TRIM to get past SGC?

Darren that's fantastic. The incredible shrinking card.

The hobby could be improved if auction houses worked with one another. I wonder if the winner of the card in REA is the consignor to Heritage. If so, and he or she is on the board, perhaps they could shed some light on what, if anything, happened to the card.

"This card was reviewed and encapsulated under the new SGC grading system."

That is some great work and absolutely smashes it out of the park. Wow


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it hardly seems realistic to expect someone to confess to trimming the card and it's fairly clear from Darren's presentation that the card has been trimmed.

Was there that much size variance in this issue that the smaller card wouldn't have raised a red flag?

What will Heritage do?
 

A mess....

Makes me glad I can't afford high-end cards, LOL.

I would change the title to get more eyes on it... including Heritages since it’s live with them right now. I did send a PM to Pete Calderon letting him know. This card should likely be stopped from selling....this is not a good look for SGC after the t206 autos, now this trimming... and TPGs in general with trimming as there are a lot of issues with more high value modern cards showing up trimmed and graded (easier to find them due to serial numbers)....

I don't know about the 36 WWG specifically but size variations are common for the 33/34 Goudeys. Of course all the nice ones just happen to be on the shorter side lol.

SGC didn't drop the ball once but TWICE, here's the same card regraded as a 7 with the old SGC slab.

It's pretty obvious. Jeremy w@agoner.

Harold Arlen could write about it.

Slice slice here
Dice dice there
It won't give the graders pause
That's how we do our card repair
In the merry old land of Oz

Why would you trim a great card?

I assume that's a rhetorical question.

I'm $ure I don't know.

OP, great work outing this. Would you consider changing the title of the thread so it’s more obvious what the thread is about? Thanks

Why did it get so quiet?

Because the title has not been changed and in the grand scheme of this beloved hobby...most people don't seem to give 2 shits!

LOL tell it bro. If you want noise, post something about shipping rates.:D

Indeed. Insert picture of horse blinders here.

Makes me wonder if grading has more of an impact on protecting the consumer or making card doctors tons of cash. It would restore my faith a bit if Heritage would pull the card and SGC took it out of the holder but I will not hold my breath on either issue.

This should be a hot topic.

Some of each.

Isn't board member Peter Calderon consignment director at Heritage? Perhaps he will see this post?

If this was a PWCC auction, the global price of pitchforks would have doubled by now.

I copied and pasted this from BLongley's previous post in this thread:

I would change the title to get more eyes on it... including Heritages since it’s live with them right now. I did send a PM to Pete Calderon letting him know. This card should likely be stopped from selling....this is not a good look for SGC after the t206 autos, now this trimming... and TPGs in general with trimming as there are a lot of issues with more high value modern cards showing up trimmed and graded (easier to find them due to serial numbers)....

Brian

Definitely took a trip to the barber -- wash and a shave please!

Well, recall that the last time, it turned out Brent himself was the one who had purchased the SGC 50 out of REA and submitted the PSA 7 before selling it privately.

I let SGC know, in case they want to look into it.

FYI, Pete did write back and they are aware of the issue. They will be reviewing the card.

Have There...
 

I know there have been cases of auction houses stopping the sale of a fake item, but have there been examples of AH stopping the sale of a trimmed item and then the item being pulled out of the flip?

What to do?
 

As a collector with a lot of cards, graded and ungraded, bought over many years from many shows, dealers, and auctions, this is really discouraging every time I see another one of these.

One aspect that is particularly discouraging is that no one on this board is surprised in the least. We congratulate the original poster for his great finding, and we move on and buy our next NM, NM-MT, or MT card that TPG's have certified as legitimate examples of an unaltered mint or nearly mint card.

For those looking for unique or hard to find cards and who do not have a long-term relationship with a reputable dealer, we are left with the options of a.) stopping collecting,
b.) buying lower grade or raw examples, or
c.) continuing to buy "certified" cards which we know are more and more likely to have been doctored for profit by a card tailor (alteration expert).

At some point if enough of this happens, there will be a tipping point. The collections we have spent good money on are sure to see a valuation impact. The valuation of this type of high-condition card is based on a combination of demand and scarcity.

If the scarcity can be addressed just by slicing off 1/16th of an inch on a border, how is that much different than just having another copy printed/made? Both outcomes reduce scarcity/increase supply, which in turn should reduce value in a market that is so sensitive to relative scarcity of high-condition examples.

Sorry for the rambling but this is really discouraging.

Q: Where have you gone Joe Dimaggio?
A: I've been to the card tailor.

The valuation, with due respect, is based primarily on the flip. Everyone knows there are lots of high grade altered cards in slabs. In times past the thought of an altered card was anathema, but times have changed. Prices have not been affected at all as far as I can tell, nor will they be IMO. They keep going up. Way up.

Definitely not surprised, and was always glad I made the conscious decision many a moon ago to collect lower condition cards...the trimming is usually a lot more obvious.

Brian

I believe the grading companies would at least be able to identify my cards as trimmed...I think.

Brian

Pretty sure if Heritage pulls the card it would go back to the consignor. It would be up to him if he wanted to try to work something out with SGC to put the card in an altered holder or leave it as is. Although I suppose they could pull the cert # from their database if he refused to cooperate.

YUP!!! While the tpg’ers continue to “print money” with their grading practices...and many AH’s continue to push these cards along...in many instances shilling all the way...as long as their wallets keep getting filled...combined with many involved in the hobby not really caring...and as repeated instances of wrongdoing go unpunished...ultimately the collectors will pay a price...its just a matter of time.

Where there is money there will always be corruption . Just the way it works unfortunately. This has been going on for so long and the blind eyes will remain as long as their is no accountability. Ive moved to collecting more antique memorabilia and antiques in general because of this. The new stuff is just as bad....used to be game worn/game used with pictures of the jersey or bat on the card and the companies would guarantee it, now its worded so vague and the sticker autograph and redemption crap is such a reach. I love cards but have lost all faith in the industry. Grading has become just another angle to scam more people. Only way to stop it or curb it is have an unbiased machine or program do the grading so all you tech guys get on it!

Hopefully, those engineers out west who are patenting that digital grading system get their act together quickly and come out as a new more foolproof TPG...would eliminate the crack and resubmit issue...and force the existing ones to clean up their act or disappear...

Sure...and good luck getting the millions of cards that have already been graded...REGRADED...at further expense...and at RISK of major devaluation.

I would love to see the authorities get involved and tell Heritage to pull the card from the auction. But instead of sending it back to the owner, they tell Heritage to hold it for them so they can book it as evidence. Then they can go back and find who the owner was who doctored or who had the card doctored. Then maybe some people will be going to jail for this.

My wishful thought for the day....

David

Well, I don't think anyone's expecting that to be the immediate consequence, but whenever it becomes clear that the robot graders are better than their human counterparts, the PSA and SGC slabs will start looking a lot more like GAI slabs. Or there will be a merger, and one of those companies will lay off all its graders.

This ^^^^^^

One wishes, but the most likely outcome is this one card gets pulled, there are no consequences, and everyone goes back to doing what they were.

Just like with the Desmond debacle. I lost most of my interest in helping to fight fraud after that "non-issue" of authorities not helping. It seems most authorities don't care, quite honestly. Or if they do care their prosecutors don't. :( The whole grading hobby is sort of predicated on a trimmed card in an 8 holder. Kind of says a lot....

I had a memorable conversation with one such authority about card doctoring and that very point about the Wagner was made.

Card has been withdrawn from HA Auction.

Nice job by Heritage!

And by Rennie.

It would be nice if SGC would comment

DiMaggio Card
 

We (Heritage) discussed this with the consignor and will have the card reviewed by SGC. As has been mentioned, until then, the card has been removed from the auction.

Peter

I can see how that would discourage law enforcement from going further however it is a shame that it is not the practice of the auction houses and grading companies to reveal the names of the people who are associated with the buying, grading and consigning of cards like this. I understand why they can't but if no arrests can be made and absent transparency, this is just going to continue.

Auction houses and grading companies keep secret the identity of the guilty parties a secret. I guess as long as they get their cut they do not really care. Pretty sad.

I'm curious. What does it mean to say that SGC is going to review it at this point?

You got it my friend. We have no idea who submits the cards, or consigns them, or buys them. And nobody will say anything. All in the dark. Perfect world for card doctors.

Good job Pete. How about talking to Brian and seeing if the guy who won the card in REA is your consignor.

And let's be honest, I doubt there is anything in the auction houses' contracts with consignors nor their terms for buyers, that preclude them from disclosing names. They simply have not made it a practice because it is their goodwill, which makes sense but in cases like this Joe D card, where fraud is being committed, why not put the names out there? Cannot see how that would expose them to litigation but I do see how they might lose those those people as buyers or consignors. If all houses did this these losers would have no place to hide but the houses are guilty of being greedy and someone buying a bad card is not their problem. Seems it should be their problem because they are representing the card and taking a piece of the sale. Until it is illegal to sell an altered card I guess they are not responsible.

Funny that houses have no problem threatening to out someone who does not pay THEM but not when fraud is being perpetrated on someone other than THEM.

Same is true for the grading companies who are allegedly here to protect the consumer. So why keep secret the guys whose names have to be continuing to come up as being associated with doctored cards? Faux protection. It is unreal.

I suppose if the practice became to disclose identities, John Doe would be the consignor, original buyer and submitter.

Yeah it's too bad more competitive businesses cannot work together. Wish the oil companies with retail stations could work together so there is less competition at the gas pumps.

Wait a minute...


Why would you grade a trimmed card?

It means they are huddled with their lawyers and insurers trying to see how badly they are going to get financially savaged for this, assuming the card doctor and the current owner are not the same person.

It's disgusting to me that some dirtbag would desecrate such an iconic card. Thank you, Rennie, for bringing this to light. At the end of the day, the only people who are looking out for collectors are fellow collectors.

There's a play by David Mamet called The Water Engine. I recommend it highly.

Class move by Heritage. Well done. It’s a shame, but this is 100% the right thing to do and I commend Heritage for taking quick and honorable action.

If that happens, "eye appeal" will turn into "cold electronic eye appeal."

It shouldn't be too hard to plug in human eye appeal ratings for a bunch of cards and have a computer extract the relevant variables (image contrast, color saturation, location of damage relative to location of the player's face, etc.) so that it can judge eye appeal well enough to pass a Net54 Turing test. Could even use fMRI data if we want to get really fancy, but I think a simple 1-10 scale from the humans would be sufficient.

Well once that automated system proves itself the legacy TPG's product will start to eventually look to be less desirable… Who would want a card graded 9 that could've possibly have been viewed as doctored versus once that can be shown to be 100% free of that stigma?

And you have been suspended for bad registration information until it is rectified. Why are all of these bad registration sleuths from FL.?