recent auto counterfeits - the effects on auto collecting??
 

with the recent T206 counterfeit auto's out there, I was always leary about autos in general.....they just seem to easy that someone could fake.....


anyway, with these new developments (which has always been a hobby problem)


Are you more likely to stay away from autos in general????

unless you have the provenance of photos of the piece being signed ect ect


because TPG's obviously just sell "opinions"

and we know about opinions :) everyone has one

I think the market for prewar signed cards has taken breath to reflect and calm down. I don’t think the overall autograph market will change for most guys like Mantle, Williams, Jeter, etc etc. Modern stuff will probably be fine. But the next signed goudey or T206 will be subject to Mannys approval.
Outside of this board, I don’t think many people in the hobby are even aware of it yet.

On a personal level, I am shying away from autographs more these days.

Much of the lustre has worn off for me (for the time-being, anyway) and there are so many other segments of the hobby to collect... both in terms of cards and memorabilia.

The TPGs are "iffy" at best (nothing new) and I've always favored doing my own homework over blind reliance on them. But this whole episode just adds another negative variable, and makes me want to shift my interest elsewhere.

I'm sure the hardcore autograph guys will remain undeterred, but it's never been my primary focus, anyway.

Autographs
 

This sad development hasn’t negatively impacted high-end signed cards whatsoever. During the extensive Net54 T206 thread, SCP realized the 2nd highest price for a 52 Topps Signed Mantle ($83K) and recorded an extremely strong $41K sake for a signed 51 Mantle Bowman rookie. They also set Various records for a few other Mantle autographed cards. Not to be outdone, a 1928 Lou Gehrig Signed exhibit realized a staggering $77K record sale in Memory Lane. The highest amount ever paid for a signed Lou Gehrig card. REA had just set a record for a signed Babe Ruth Goudey that fetched $132K! Bottom line here is that high-end signed cards are stronger than ever, and a bad incident is not going to dismantle the premium signed baseball card market

One of those Historic Autographs things with a card and cut in a custom PSA/DNA slab sold the other night in Sterling with a T206 Flick and Flick 'shaky old man' cut for $167 including vig. The card was a decent looking g-vg Piedmont 150 which would have gone for $100-$150 as a slabbed card in and of itself. So, basically, the bidders discounted the PSA/DNA cut signature to a very low value.

imagine
 

dumping near close to 100k on a high end auto, and the tpg got it wrong, chet in the back "cooked" up the auto....too risky....

I would want a photo of the player signing the piece!:)

There is only one Auto I’m chasing in 2019. Nile Kinnick is the major whole in my Heisman collection. I believe if I find one with the right provenance I’ll pull the trigger.

Autographs
 

High end collectors have spent a lot more on pre-war high grade cards residing in 8, 9 and 10 holders, as well as major game used uniforms/equipment. Do the 3rd party graders have these types of collectibles at a 100% certainty level? The simple answer is no. Vast collecting niches in this hobby require sone “leap of faith” based on the TPG’s assessments, not just autographs. If it makes the collector uncomfortable, stay away. If it doesn’t, God Bless and go for it. Most collectors with high-end purse strings continue to prove they will test that “leap of faith” collecting angle, and don’t expect that to change in the near future.

I had always thought that some day after the mortgage was set and retirement $ was in good shape, that I would really splurge and get a signed Ruth Goudey. PSA/JSA.

I'm a year or so away from being able to do that. I've changed my mind :mad:

Wasnt there a fake Magie portrait posted in a psa 5 holder? Money wise, it probably beats all the signed t206s in the whole thread added up. Funny that the title is "too many to list". What about the fake missing color, ghosts, and scraps, trimmed high grade t206s, etc, etc. Ad nauseam.

These seem light years easier to fake. I'll stick to buying autos.


Sell now while you can!

Bob....
 

I'm in complete agreement with you....

Ted....I hear you, but it would be 1000 % easier to just sign a piece instead of cooking up a scrap or ghost....how could you add cardboard without extensive work??? or create ghosts and try to wash out color ect.....all undertakings that would require extensive work for the profit involved....some almost insane to do(like adding extra borders ect)

also, magie and doyle have been tried to be faked, but they are super focused on now, and can be fairly easy to detect(black lights, 20x loupes).....I'm sure there is a possibility, but no way like the ease of signing an auto....I hate to say it, but I'm sure many kids could do a great job at it:eek:


trimming cards and getting them holdered also occurs, but prob these above mentioned things- fake doyle, magies, creating scraps ect would be much more difficult or take some kind of advanced skill to try to pull it off.....I'm sure there are some that have probably slipped by, but I'm going to venture not like the scale of a potential autograph deceptions...

too easy to pick up a pen or sharpie and practice...thousands could probably even do a great job....

unfortunately, no real 100% way to tell with autos....unless you got it yourself or have some kind of provenance, family, photos ect.....and even then the piece could be swapped out....

unfortunately, this scammer with the t206 signing counterfeit sham shed light on the ugly proverbial elephant in the room....and has brought the skeptical perception now on autos which sucks!


if I was going to get a legit auto, I would want a check or legal document or a photo to accompany/be the piece for added value/confirmation of being legit...

Ted....do not want to bash auto collecting, I know you have a beautiful auto collection and do not want to take away any of that prestige, or thunder from anyones hard work and money and years they have pumped into it.....

just very disappointing that a few money hungry greedy basatrds ruin shit for many of the legit pieces.....now a lot of doubt is raised on all autos, not like it hasn't in the past, but the skepticism is even worse now that tps are fooled a lot more....autos are just too easy to fake

just plain sucks!:mad:

Vintageclout makes a great point regarding the "leap of faith" among virtually all collectors, not just vintage cards/memorabilia. It starts with the fact that most collectibles have an intrinsic value of close to $0. The value we attach to these collectibles is a matter of psychology and people have proved throughout history that they want to attach sometimes immense amounts of value to items that don't inherently have any. Tulip bulbs anyone? To someone unfamiliar with our culture, investments in old pieces of cardboard with images on them -- many of which are altered -- would seem as ludicrous as buying coins, stamps, antiques...or tulip bulbs.

How about paper currency? It's only worth as much as collective faith in the monetary system. Speaking of faith, how did the Church become the most powerful force in the modern world for hundreds of years? Most people are prone to believe -- that underpins everything and always will.

How many perceived hobby crises do we have to go through before people come to the conclusion that the next crisis is not going to destroy a large segment of the hobby? The answer is many more. Why? There is so much money involved that there will continue to be "bad actors," and those prone to catastrophisizing and generalizing will mistake discoveries of the deeds of those bad actors as a doomsday scenario.

It will take a sustained downturn in risky assets where high-end spenders have most of their exposure (e.g., real estate, stocks) for psychology to be shaken, not a net54 thread, despite how good the work on that thread was. Mark Twain could have been talking about vintage card autographs when he wrote "the rumors of my death have been greatly exaggerated." I don't think he's turning over in his grave about our latest crisis.

well
 

my leap of faith won't be with my wallet:D

too easy to fake an auto....give a kid a pen and a few hours to practice and James Spence will be fooled:)

Autographs.
 

Card doctoring just as easy....if not more. To each his own.

card doctoring
 

I'm sure can be done.....but I highly doubt as easy as picking up a pen or sharpie and a few hours practice....

try this with a twelve year old......I'm sure 5 out of 10 could prob fake an auto and get it through jsa....within a few hours....

then give the kid a t206 and have him create big bordered ghost image scrap or pull a magie error off with out detection of altering or trim up a nice 8....

aint gonna happen, only with the most advanced crooks maybe, just maybe....

simple logic.....auto are just to easy to fake...by just about anyone....sucks but true!!!


mantle and babe, I hate to say, prob 30 % or more are prob fakes(just an arbitrary number)....

to each his own definitely.....but I cant see dumping 30k or more on a cobb auto that may have a 50/50 shot at actually being legit...

make sense????

too easy to do....for so many people, cost nothing(pen ink) an a 12 year old could do it...

scary shit:eek:

btw....
 

the t206 counterfeiter is so stupid, he/she purchased the cards from ebay!

DUH!

eventually, someone would catch on......person doesn't seem too smart....just another douchebag a - hole with a pen:eek:

that was their high tech gear:)

i completely get why you would be reluctant to buy high-end autos so don't open up your wallet for it...but we all should recognize that the market is made outside of us individually or as a board community. the person who paid ~$76,000 for a gehrig signed 1928 exhibit (sold previously for ~$53,000 a little over a year ago) is not concerned about reselling it to you or me! if they have a money concern, it's probably about how their stock market investments are going to do? their concern about the signed gehrig exhibit is probably relegated to who they can invite over to show it off to or when they will get bored of it?

James....
 

completely agree....if you have cash to literally to burn its not much of a concern....a rough 70 % shot at it being legit is good enough for them:)

I could see idiots trying to fake Cobbs....a few minutes and BAM! a 30 k card....

lets do a joe jax while they are at it! he probably signed almost nothing cause he couldn't write....

but maybe ray liotta can do it!:)

I respectfully highly disagree. Don't get me wrong I 100% agree that almost anyone with practice can forge an autograph. The same thing goes with doctoring up a card.

As someone who was a mason for many years it is something that 99.99% of people can't just do without a lot of practice. Those that try have some ugly looking finished product. I can guarantee the average brick layer is not very intelligent even though they are the highest paid trade. Yet they can give you a beautiful house or fireplace because they know how.

Same with card doctoring it is not hard once you know how.

Ben....
 

i agree also, a card could be doctored also, but what to doctor???

a corner?? a wrinkle?? soak a card???

I would imagine it would be hard to create national on joe doyle......

maybe trying to doctor magie, but that is difficult im sure....

most of my scrap left are impossible to forge, especially the fat bordered grossly big bordered , weird cuts, the yellow browns ect...the whole card would have to be created and the ones I have are legit...

so I'm not too sure how , at least, t206 can be altered more??? maybe trimmed cards....but I'm sure its not even close to the scale of forged autos...

bats, balls, index cards, 8 X 10's, anything signed, to me, is questionable unless there is provenance....

obviously, card doctoring can be done, and I am sure it is, but it is not , I'm sure, as prevelant in comparison to autos....

autos are just too easy to forge....

take a magee, try to "doctor" the e into an i and try to get it into a tpa....I'm sure they would detect it....there probably not too many people on the planet could pull it off, and if they did/could, it would be beyond skill...



so I'm not sure what else could be doctored???? even the fake rare backs were caught....?????

the profit margin isn't there on trying to fake/forge other cards....how many fake magies do you think a forger is going to get through??? 1 maybe if the stars aligned and the graders were sleeping...

I'm just saying, to go to that extent to try to forge big cards or try to replicate t206 as scrap is highly unlikely....almost slim to none...

show some examples???

not many to be found....


on the other hand, the surface , I'm sure, is just scraped!! this is the tip of the iceberg I'm sure....


now tpg can't even be trusted....I can see making a mistake on 1 or 2 but dozens of these????????????

if the t206 forger didn't buy the cards on ebay, no one would have ever figured it out!:eek:

NOW THAT IS SCARY!!!!!!

how many other cards were bought at shows, the forgers just signed the item in the bathroom, then submits to james spence???

I wonder how many cobbs or mantles were cooked up while the forger sat on the toilet at a card show??? dropping # 2's and laughing his/her ass off as they submit to jsa for a multi k payoff from a 20 dollar investment?

ugh.....when it comes to autos, it's beyond scary....just use logic ....it's common sense on this one....

this has happened over many years within the hobby with autos....


I believe , the future autos with concrete evidence (photos, testimonials of witnesses, provenance) will be highly prized....


so, lesson learned....if you are getting something autoed, take a picture and a picture of the piece....document it....

I have watched every episode of pawn stars too much:)

Will PSA honor the guarantee on the autograph cards? I would think buying PSA wouldn't be very affected due to the protection if so.

Where can I adopt a 12 year old that can forge autos? I have a 2 year old that can make cuts with scissors though, or leave a card in the sun.

I get the gist of the thread, but you are deluding yourself of you truly think it isnt many times easier to "doctor" a card in any way, than it is to forge and auto past any TPG, and I'll include Spence in that group as well.


Mind you the thread billed as "too many (forgeries) to list" has what 5 or 6 cards? All from the same forger, to the same auction house or 2? Let's skip the Doyle as I believe PSA is a bit overly cautious on that one. That isn't a whole heck of a lot, more so when the t206 Holy grail Wagner, the torchbearer of the hobby, was admittedly trimmed with matching photos. The value on that psa 8, outweighs the thread of forged autos by a little, and had no affect on the hobby.

About 15 years ago I thought it would be cool to frame pics (another hobby, framing) of TV western stars and their autographs that were on 3x5 index cards. I bought 15 or 20 pics and autographed cards from eBay, none of which had a COA. I didn't care as I wouldn't be reselling and I didn't want to pay a lot of money.
More recently I have been bidding/buying pre-war hof autographed postcards, all PSA/DNA. Again, will probably never will sell.
This will be the extent of my autograph collection. :)
http://net54baseball.com/attachment....1&d=1546347602

I've collected autographs for years, but always in person. I get them at shows or at the AAA minor league park where I live. I'm fortunate that the front office usually brings in star players to sign throughout the season, just for the cost of admission. Usually a half dozen or so. I've gotten autographs of Rod Carew, Paul Molitor, Cal Ripken, Jim Rice and Harmon Killebrew at the park...just to name a few. The show autographs can get pricey depending on the player, but at least I have the confidence my stuff is real when I am enjoying it in the man cave. To me, that's worth the cost. Buying an autograph I did not witness??..too risky for me in today's memorabilia market.

Vinnie....
 

I think that's going to be to future of collecting pieces like this....

basically either acquiring yourself, or getting photos and documentation....

paperwork(like pawn stars)

a t206 with the return envelope for example is starter...

or a photo of the person signing the item.....

an admission ticket saved from the park that day, a program accompanying the item....

some back up proof is going to be needed in the future I see to combat all these forgeries....


John Vanderbeck

they are "diluting" the good ones....

tpgs and james spence ect are really going to be "iffy" and those items will now always be questioned of their authenticity(even if it is legit)....

the only way to get authentic/real is back up with documentation, certified letters, witnesses, programs, statements, photos, ect....

more provenance= more validity=more value


sad it has come to this:o

Ted....
 

you are great people, and I can understand why the defense.....

but comparing apples and oranges here....

faded out / washed out T206 cards, collectors are wise to.....advanced collectors now can EASILY differentiate between a "washed" out card, or a truly missing ink scrap....

that's why TPG are rarely even grading these anymore.....THEY ACTUALLY GOT WISE:)....maybe they will with the autos???

that's why you see a washed out card on EBAY and someone is "claiming" it's missing ink, and it sits on ebay for years for $400 dollars....they will be lucky to get $100 or $200 and its still "iffy"

these missing ink cards are barely getting a few hundred if lucky...


the true missing ink cards are hard to detect.....

scrap is totally different- true scrap has characteristics that are nearly impossible to fake.....try creating(except a franken wagner and spending 14 k to a conservator:D;))....you can't simply ADD big wonky borders, that's why I like my scraps way over or grossly miscut ect....truly proves the validity....


trimming cards- I'm sure that takes skill to get it past a TPG(although it happens)......not many people could trim a card up and get it into a 8 or a 9 holder.....it does probably happen when the grader is dozing off that day...


the Wagner 8 is a poor example.....that had corruption written all over it, and is a high profile type of conspiracy on that card.....bad mojo:)


kids, now a days, are super smart.....

go into any middle school .....give them examples of SIGNATURES.....FAMOUS AUTOS ECT......

have them practice autos.....I bet you get 2 out of 10 that are pretty talented with a ball point or a pen or a sharpie....these kids have a lot of talent artistically....i'll bet, 2 of the 10 can PROBABLY FAKE A MANTLE PRETTY GOOD....

id even bet.....get them to actually auto index cards....I bet 2 of the 10 would get through a TPG....:eek:


now, take the same group......give them high profile cards......have them trim them, and try to pass a TPG....a possibility, but the probability is highly unlikely....

now, take same group of 12 year old.....give them some T206.....have them "wash out" certain colors.....have them try to create a MAGIE out of a MAGEE.....have them try to add N'TL....have them try to create extra 100 year old cardboard, and paste them on the borders of T206, create template ghost images in the same period ink and create cards and get them past graders.....NOT GOING TO HAPPEN!


if an attempt was made, id love to see it....


better yet....my challenge- id love to see someones creation and try to get the scan by me;) I probably don't even need to see it in person to tell if it is legit or not......

maybe if you created one digitally, that would be the only way...


the litholgraphy is too easy to distinguish....



my point......there is always going to be beat shit in the hobby.....there are fakes of all cards I'm sure, some even probably get by......that's why we are so critical of these.... but not EVEN CLOSE TO THE AMOUNT OF AUTOED PIECES......the ability of BASICALLY ANYONE being able , or have the potential to fake an auto .....its been going on for hundreds, if not thousands of years!:eek:


cumulatively....if the t206 forger could have faked 100 or more of these......

100X1000 each card :eek:

that's one idiot alone with a pen.......'

think of ten idiots with sharpies and pens.....


it's a scary scenario......

it would suck to have too much vested in autos if their validity is always questioned.......it's terrible how a few can really mess up a great hobby for everyone else.....




the lesson- future autoes should be accompanied with extra "proof" if you will......documentation......extra expert analysis......photos....testimonials....


MORE STUFF!:D

Ted....
 

just want to make clear.....don't want to offend you in anyway......you are great people....and when I said "get defensive" ....I felt your pain many years ago with scrap... when you pour so much time and energy into collecting something, it is discouraging as a few individuals can ruin or least worsen values and question items because of their stupidity and greed....

years ago that guy pat tried to pass off an overprint bar on an old mill scrap...wonka, jim, tim, and a bunch of other guys busted him....scraps have always been under intense scrutiny since.....with multiple expert opinions on each card.....I would make sure mine were 100 percent before picking up or trading for them....it scared the shit out of all of us.....since then, we have all been on super lookout for anything error/variation or scraps that were questionable......since then , the scraps cooled off due to a niche market and about 25 big collectors getting out of the hobby....

so, I know how it feels.....what I collectied was always under the micro scope(errors, scraps)......I shifted my focus and started with cobbs and always loved the rare backs too.....I still collect scraps, but are very cautious on what I pick up or trade for.....it's easy to differentiate for me now if anything looks scetch..and now I can tell pretty easily....


anyway, I have a lot of other friends/collectors who have huge auto collections....cards....memo...ect....they are not happy about the recent t206 forgeries....just brings back into light how easy it is to forge an auto, and pretty easy to slip by graders....

this has huge implications.....kinda opens the floodgates on the abundance of autoed pieces questionability of "is it really legit?"

these t206 forgeries, unfortunately, are probably just the tip of the ice berg:eek:

probably runs ramped in the auto world.....just scary, because I have a few friends who are heavily vested in autos....


sucks.....

I can understand, but they are many more doctored cards in holders than fake autos that have slipped by TPGs. I don't see people running away from high end cards. In fact TPGs exist almost solely out of the fraud , and over grading that ran rampant in the hobby.

I was just picking on scraps and missing ink to make a point regarding t206s. What about rebacked cards, etc etc.

Ted....
 

I hear you my man! what a mess:)


you are great people:)

Autographs
 

The hobby survived “Operation Bullpen” which was an absolute nightmare w/regard to the weeding out many fake autographs. Coming back extremely strong to realize incredible pricing points on high end autographs. This T206 mess is a “molecule” compared to those prior issues, and with all due respect, the autograph collecting industry will once again brush aside this blip. Simply stated, that IS the most likely scenario. Happy New Year!

I think many of us can determine whether the cards that we collect are trimmed or rebacked. I know I can. However, I think very few if any of us can definitively say if an autograph on a card is genuine or forged. Therefore, unless I see the player signing the card, or it has impeccable provenance, I will stay away, far, far away.

This.

^^This^^ Sadly besides the few people that actually ended up with the 5 or 6 cards that got pointed out I doubt anybody really cares. With cards we have had proof with before and after pictures of very high end cards being doctored. Then had several people stick up for the sellers of the altered cards. That is the reality of our hobby.:D

I am partly OCD. It bothers me just to look at the frame covering the light switches. :|

Lol,me too. I temporarily hung it there for the photo. Maybe I should have cropped it.😏

So now you have a hole in the wall there that needs patching? There goes the OCD again.

Haha, no, no, no. I replaced the original pic- a Vanity Fair print.

I just received a Heritage pamphlet for an upcoming auction on Feb 23rd-24th.

In it it shows a 1948 Babe Ruth single signed baseball PSA/DNA Mint 9 that shows it sold for $228,000 dollars once upon a time.
As you open the pamphlet up, right in the middle it shows another 1948 Babe Ruth single signed Baseball, PSA/DNA NM-MT 8 with only an estimate of $50,000?

Is there that much of a difference between a signed 9 and 8 or is this a reflection of the current signed card/memorabilia story that is going on?

I looked for the auction on their website but could not find it? I did notice this, however.
https://blog.ha.com/2017/10/sports-a...natures-101917

Ruth Signed Ball
 

Give or take, that is indeed the difference between a Ruth ball w/an overall PSA 8 vs. 9 grade. Absolutely. FYI, the large disparity in pricing is due to the minimal number of PSA 9 single signed Ruth balls in circulation. They are few and far between. A PSA 8 ball is great, but they are not extremely rare at the 8 grade. Once again, similar to a high-grade baseball card with a low pop, pricing is based on supply vs. demand. There are many eccentric enthusiasts that crave to own a Mint 9 Ruth ball, with minimal opportunities to capture one.

As I don't play the auto game, exactly what differences are they looking for that are noticed between a sig designated an 8 or a 9?

It seems silly to me, but that's jmo, on how a sig can be designated a grade the same way a card can be?

I can understand an old faded one compared to a well preserved one but if say, Ruth for example signed it, what makes his signature less worthy compared to other ones he has signed?

I don't know about anyone else, but if I had a proven, beyond a reasonable doubt, signed Ruth card or ball, I really don't think I'd be concerning myself with how well it was written by him.

I guess I'm lucky as this doesn't affect me at all.

I never understood why someone would pay top money for a pristine card, but would also pay top money for a card with writing on it because it was "autographed".

Either we as collectors think pristine cards have value or we as collectors think cards with writing (call them "autographs" instead of graffiti if you prefer) have value. But to my mind ... you CAN'T have both be valuable. They are contradictions of each other!!!

Actually in truth, I never understood why you would pay a premium for either a pristine or autographed card.

So, as a result - I never buy either. And I've never made any money off of my hobby - but I've also never lost any!

I can live with that.

Cheers,
Patrick

Ruth Ball
 

As you know, the value of virtually everything in the hobby is highly driven by optics/aesthetics. A graded Ruth ball has two variables: the grade for the ball and the grade for the signature, from which a “TOTAL GRADE” is calculated. Typically, it’s a simple formula: (Ball Grade + Auto Grade)/2. However, PSA will give half bumps based on excellent eye appeal. For instance, a 6 ball grade and 7 signature grade with super eye appeal may be given an overall 7 grade (vs. the 6.5 formula grade) if PSA feels the overall aesthetics merit a bump. Totally subjective. Regarding whether a signature should be graded an 8 or 9, we are unfortunately at the mercy of the authenticators. I’ve seen 8s that should be 9s and vice-versa. No different than the ongoing complaints we hear from collectors who are upset with their card submission grades/assessments.

So what you are saying is Marino was better sometimes than others? How does anyone really know?

Autographs
 

Leon - For the most part, Grad, Keating & Spence are good at what they do. Especially with higher-end autographs. Are mistakes made...yes. But no less mistakes than TPGs in other areas of this hobby. If you think otherwise, you are only fooling yourself. If I had a dollar bill for every thread I’ve seen on the 54 board complaining about a card that should not be numerically graded for whatever reason, I could retire right now. Who are we kidding here???? To pick on just autographs borders on insanity....

wow
 

Vintageclout.......

in all due respect, it is super super super super super easy to fake an autograph I am sure....all you have to do is pick up a pen/sharpie and let 'er rip:eek:



just saying....

future will need more "proof" that an item is the real deal....

where is tillman frititta??????????:)

Autographs
 

With all due respect.....you are WRONG!!!!! If you think just anyone can get a prominent autograph like ruth, gehrig, Mathewson, etc. past Grad, Keating, Spence, etc. you are BADLY MISTAKEN. You obviously don’t collect high end autographs so this conversation is out of your league. But, I might add, there are nearly 3,000 8, 9, 10 graded T206s on the PSA pop chart and you feel comfortable that all of those 110 year old cards miraculously retained a majority of their original factory issued condition without any tampering.....ok.....

There is immeasurable fraud in the card hobby with faking, altering and everything else in between. It isn't only autographs which are plagued. At the end of the day I guess it comes down to what each of us are comfortable collecting. Good luck in the hunt!!

Autographs
 

My final point is that while 3rd party autograph experts at times do make mistakes, the same scenario easily exists for the hobby”s card graders. Laser cutting advancements, undisclosed restoration, etc. have elevated card doctoring to a new level whereby card doctors are now even working on enhancing NEW cards (there is a current thread on this issue). To isolate the autograph collecting angle as being too risky (vs. high grade cards as an example) is ridiculous.

Autograph collecting
 

Leon - no better way of saying it! To each his own!

Vintageclout.....
 

it proves that tpgs are really sloppy, e not just a mistake here and there...just recently with these t206 ALOT went through......2 dozen or more:eek: and probably a lot more...

you must be heavily invested in auto stuff......I would be nervous and defensive too:D:eek:

cards are probably trimmed up
 

also, but anyone can pick up a pen or a sharpie.....these are WAY TOO EASY TO FAKE!

just proven by this recent t206s ....not a few......by a ton:eek:

Sadly there will be little to no effect on auto collecting, operation bullpen and Marino were so much bigger than this and it had little effect on the industry. I hate to say it but this is so small in comparison it just won’t have the needed impact to eliminate this kind of activity. Some people want to believe and will pay no matter what. I still remember the Dilbert comic strip shortly after operation bullpen, Moses no but we can have it by next week.

Nobody's perfect
 

A few observations:

1) How good are you at your job? Are you perfect? Is everybody at your company perfect? I will take a wild leap and say that for just about everybody here, they're about as good at what they do as the top TPAs are at what they do. Are pilots perfect? Do you still fly? I rest my case.

2) However imperfect they might be, TPAs on both the card and autograph sides have cleaned up the hobby a LOT. I don't know the percentage, but I do know that collectors can rely on their purchases a hell of a lot more now than they could 25 years ago. Those of us who have been around that long know that it's the difference between night and day.

3) What's the total of forged cards discovered? And even granting there are many more forgeries that will never come to light, what's the total percentage of forgeries that have gotten past the top TPAs compared to the ones that haven't? I think a guess of 1% would probably be way too high.

4) In conclusion: when it comes to forgeries and fraud, things aren't perfect in our world, but they're so much better than before the TPGs came along. So how about we get back to enjoying the hobby. Or get out, if you can't stand the imperfection of it, that's everybody's choice. But for God's sake stop all the bitching and leave the rest of us alone.

very sad....
 

collectors are going to pour a lot of moola into autos, where as the dilution rate is increasing....(fake vs real)

future validation will be tough without decent provenance.....

sky is falling , collectors will just "turn a blind eye".....

nice if you have cash to burn......

investing or collecting in autos will be risky, because the fraud will only increase as proven today....

marino, t206 scam, whatever, I don't see it getter any better or solving the fraud without decent documentation or provenance...

an escalating problem with no apparent solution in sight....:eek:

Hank....
 

1 % guessed error rate on autos I think you would be wrong.....how many t206 auto cards are out there???? graded????? probably 200-300??? not sure

but finding 2 dozen or more in already a very small population is a HUGE ERROR RATE:eek: and that's just the ones found recently

yes, tps have cleaned up some of the "wild west" in the past where you basically just went on someones word....:rolleyes:

and of course "no one is perfect" .....this is far from minimizing the scope of this latest scam of bad graded autos......tps will just cop out and say "just an opinion"....thus, decreasing our confidence in grading companies....

A FEW I can understand....the amount found recently is "more than a few", in t206 auto pop, its A TON!:eek:


showing very very very careless grading standards......basically, how can a graders really tell if the auto is legit?????? just by studying past ones????


c'mon....think about that....anyone can "study" someones auto so good, they can sign it themselves....


this is common sense

Thanks, Chicken Little
 

The sky is falling, oh, woe is me, the end is near, what in the world are we gonna do now? What a bunch of bullshit.

75-80% of my collection is vintage cards so, once again, you are wrong! At least you’re consistent.

hahahaha
 

must have struck a chord with you too:D


this is common sense.....can not see why such intelligent collectors here decide to poo poo this.....

well, maybe if they are heavily vested in this.....they don't want to face reality...


Paul is a stellar example.....he is heavily vested in t206 autos, yet his response was , lets figure it out! he is a true hobbyist to me......I am very impressed by Paul's handling of this.....what a pro.....

I would have shit my pants:eek:

vintage clout
 

20% is still a decent amount to be worried about:)

o wait....
 

"chicken little" using some common sense......


hmmmmmmmmmmm..........might be out of my league:rolleyes::D


hahahaha

btw.....
 

I always wanted a personal Babe Ruth.....

can you guys cook me up an 8X10 and inscribe it:

"to chicken little johnny v you da man, HOLLA ! Babe Ruth:)

How long do you think it would take the average person to learn how to forge an autograph?

Is there any baseball player past or present that you think would be easy for this first time forger to get by PSA, Spence, or even SGC?:)

Autographs
 

Hi Hank, it’s JoeT and I hope all is well. FYI, you are 100% correct regarding TPGs. Before we had them, Operetion Bullpen was the first extensive effort to try and clean up the hobby. While they did a decent job of weeding out numerous fake autographs, it wasn’t until the hobby adopted several TPGs that the autograph collecting market steamrolled ahead. No authentication process is perfect but the TPGs have instilled a strong level of confidence that has resulted in a very strong hobby as we stand today. This includes card graders and autograph/game used authenticators. Like you, I don’t expect everyone to sleep well at night with regard to the process being perfect, but it sure as hell stands light years ahead of where it was. Whenever there is serious money involved there will always be thieves (autograph forgery, card doctors, etc.), and collectors will simply have to move forward and work around the acts of these malicious scumbags. Corporate America has survived serious insider trading, Enron, etc., and the memorabilia circuit will likewise continue to forge ahead.

Happy New Year to you & your family!

Ben....
 

Great question from an expert like you.....

not sure.....I guess would depend on the type of auto.......like an "Aaron Judge" doesn't look too hard.....Pujols....ect....

I would say a day or so??? maybe after a few months you wouldn't be able to tell the difference???


a true artist or someone with any talent could probably perfect it in a few hours I would assume(you know what it means to assume):)


id love to hear from an auto forger!! how easy it is I'm sure:D

I really appreciate this comment. Thank you for that. I obviously have a lot of thoughts about everything that’s been going on here, as well as the recent trimmed card thread. I have been keeping my thoughts to myself over the past couple of weeks because there are plenty of people who believe that I have biased opinions given how many signed cards I have in my collection.

A couple of Net54 members and other sites have said about me specifically (and similar collectors generally), “don’t trust the opinions of those that have been defrauded as they attempt to downplay the extent of the fraud.” It’s a fair concern, and one I will try not to contribute to.

Autographs!
 

+1 Thank you for this common sense! Trust me, Grad, Spence & Keating are better than people think. Especially for high end autographs. They absolutely scrutinize Ruth’s, Gehrig’s, Matty’s, etc., almost to the point where you have to worry about having a real signature declined.

Please make it stop
 

I'm just disagreeing with you, that's all. I honestly don't think you have any idea what you're talking about. Nobody's making you collect autographs, so why don't you find something you do like and talk about that?

I am about as far from an expert on autograph forgery as you can get. I write left handed and can't even get my own auto to look the same twice in a row.

Here is a nice Pujols auto. Let me know when you have practiced enough because I would love one.:)

Yeah, why waste their time with scrutinizing every autograph that walks through their door?

Paul.....
 

You are a true model collector in my opinion.....a true stand up guy......one of the best on the board.....I would listen to what you had to say anyday! I have called upon your advice many times, and I'm sure I will again my friend......by no means am I and expert in any autos, nor would I ever claim to be.....

"out of my league" on them......I never claimed to be either:D

now, T206 scrap, some t206 ect , maybe:) ....and of course, I still make mistakes....


no one is perfect!


this reminds me of a story when I was a kid....

There was a Rock and Roll store in my town that sold memorabilia , especially KISS items,, ect.....my friend had a buddy that worked in the back making rock and roll clocks.......also, it was rumored that most of the autoed items were being autoed by some kid in the back....

it turned out to be true, and some kid was cranking out rock star autos like crazy with a sharpie......all of them were fake......had fake cert ect....guy that owned the store was a fraudster.......fans had no clue , and almost 100 % of the autos looked real to most people.....the kid was that good.....eventually, the fraudster went out of business and who know what else....

there are probably a ton of these stories out there related to autoed items...


I watch Grad on pawn stars.....that guy is an expert I'm sure, but he really can only render an opinion.....I'm sure he fooled all the times by some real pros......auto game is way too risky......even to the experts....


MY ENTIRE POINT- corruption everywhere, but especially in autoed items.....too easy too fake.....buyer beware......be more careful......use more provenance....use more common sense:)

Hank.....
 

in all due respect, you have absolutely no common sense when it comes to this subject.....I am not an auto guy(I do own a few) never claim or claimed to be expert by any means, but this subject needs to be discussed because it affects everyone......especially friends of mine like Paul....when I needed advice on T206 autos, I always turned to Paul and a few other member collectors for advice....

the reason for this thread:


I don't like to see ANYONE taken advantage of!!

......and most members will vouch for my character on this:)(a few may not lol)


anyway, you can be ignorant and bury your head in the sand, but this is something that needs to be always discussed to educate others.....


so, I understand you disagree, which is fine.....makes for a better debate......but honestly sir, you are out of your league with common sense on this:D


Ben

Beauty of a PUJOLS! :)


that one actually looks pretty easy........another one that looks easy is Mantle (unfortunately one of my favorites)

I bought one 8X10 mantle at a flea market this summer with a COA for $60 bux.......I know it is probably 80 % fake, but looks nice:) I do not know why I blew $60 on it, and as soon as I did, I was laughing at myself......saying SUCKER lol

But yet I have read on more than one occasion where James Spence has also rejected a previous autograph that he once deemed/certified as good? :confused:
http://autographplanet.com/forum/rip...time-guarantee

I wasn't around earlier in the hobby when you and some others said the hobby was fraught with bad nefarious things and if it wasn't for the TPA's and authenticators, things would be far worse today.
I personally don't buy that. I think these guys like JSA and PSA/DNA saw an opportunity to capitalize on that fear giving the falsehood all will be good again, as long as you send money our way.

How many times have we seen bad cards, bad auto's, and heard of stories about favorable grades granted to favorable submitters? The list of shenanigans is longer than both my arms put together.

"While the specialists say their services have cleaned up an industry rife with fraud, critics say their "expert authentication" is little more than pseudoscience used to generate millions in profits at collectors' expense"
https://www.miaminewtimes.com/news/a...siness-6395264

I can understand people defending their actions/reputation as I am sure, like one member who admitted he profited from peoples ignorance of what these TPAs and authenticators deliver, many have a lot to lose.

Personally, and I know I am not the only one who thinks this, but in order to keep the hobby healthy and progressing forward, these shenanigans need to be exposed and stopped, not defended.

Irv.....
 

WoW!:eek:

I couldn't have said it myself better! thanks for the back up;)


I , since I don't own any high end autos, am not qualified and this conversation is "out of my league":D

Autograph.
 

It actually happened to me about 10 years ago. Bought a high-end autograph that had a Spence PSA LOA. When I asked Spence to issue me a JSA LOA, he declined it after a few days, stating he uncovered more facts relating to the autograph that made it no good. As a matter of fact, Spence was right, and I had to eat crow. Spence sat me down and thoroughly explained why the autograph was no good, going through his amazing exemplar file with me to unquestionably prove his point. Was i pissed....yes. Did I stop collecting autographs....NO. Crap like that happens, but for the most part, I’ve been fortunate to collect a number of great autographs that I am comfortable with, regardless of the associated PSA & JSA LOAs I also have. Does it get frustrating sometimes....sure. But I roll with the punches and continue to use BOTH my educated judgement along with the opinions of the hobby experts. It is what it is.

some simple
 

logical solutions the tps maybe able to reduce the error rate:

1) have a panel of experts look at each auto(if jsa is on site......and if only 1 or 2 authenticators are present, have experts on staff remotely look at scans as the on site graders look at it physically)

2) keep a data base of cards graded and cert #'s and scans....this way cards can get cross checked(even if re slabbed)

3) have grading companies "freely" share data to reduce fraud and work together to help the industry as a whole

4) ask for "provenance" of the signed pieces- paper work , photos , witness accounts, letters, ect

5) include a report to reflect these things

6) have different "tiers" of being authenticated- example tier 1 = only an "opinion" card or item- has no provenance , but graders "feels" it looks as if were authentic tier 2 = piece or card with original origin story and documentation tier 3 = documentation, photos ect...


so tier 1 tier 2 or tier 3 in confidence of authenticity(higher tier, more likely it is authentic)

7) btw- PSA DNA- do they actually conduct DNA TESTS?????????

maybe they can somehow in the future actually dna pieces for and detect something that way?????

not sure....


these are just some quick thoughts about how TPGers can "tighten" up standards on these pieces

I didn’t read this whole thread, but these new developments won’t really deter me from buying some autographs! Nobody is perfect and I’m just glad these fakes were caught and removed from the hobby!

The autograph hobby still seems strong even after Operation Bullpen happened, so I figure if it can overcome something of that magnitude, it can overcome this!

My two cents 😊

What is just as scary and frustrating for me as slabbed doctored cards and forged t206’s is having genuinely un-doctored cards get regected as trimmed, altered stock, etc. I have a ‘53 topps Mantle that would easily grade an 8 that came back EVID-TRIM by PSA. Haven’t tried SGC yet but will soon. The card was busted out of a pack by my dad, then handed down to me. It was his prized possession, and I know for a fact it hasn’t been altered. Happens to a whole bunch of collectors I’m sure. So we have altered cards that are slabbed in 8 and 9 holders selling for buttloads of cash, and I may only be able to slab mine in A. How f’d up is that.....

Sorry. Rant over!

Jason....
 

Wow!!

that sucks......too bad there was no solid way to prove to them.....a trim is probably a little tough to tell on some cards....

there should be a way to "dispute the grade" and try to prove provenance....

its tough in your case, but they should have multiple graders look at a "disputed" card.....I really wanted to start a grading company a few years back due to these stories:mad:

Derek....
 

I wouldn't suggest you read this thread then:D

sometimes ignorance is bliss......

Autograph
 

He can read the thread. Like other “knowledgeable” autograph collectors, he KNOWS the process isn’t perfect and forged scripts can work their way into TPG holders. BTW, another horror story (Jason’s plight) of a card that has been erroneously evaluated by a TPG. Once again PROVING the point that the WHOLE TPG PROCESS is imperfect, not just autographs. Yet, through it all, the vast number of hobby collecting angles continue to thrive. Face it, this T206 autograph forgery incident, despicable as it was, will not destroy the autograph collecting community. Life goes on.....you should too....