Lee Smith & Harold Baines??
 

I don't tend to be a HOF snob. But I heard about the announcement for Baines and Smith and said "Wait, What?" There was never a time when I thought, Harold Baines defined his generation. I think that about Garvey. I think that about Mattingly - but never about Baines . I liked him, but he is the definition of the hall of pretty/very good. He didn't have huge counting stats either

Smith actually has a better argument if you are a fan of relievers in the HOF. At least he was the all-time saves leader at one point. I am not a fan of relievers in the hall. This isn't a popular position with most, but I think that most relievers would have preferred to be the 4th or 5th starter in the rotation but they didn't have the 3rd pitch or the stamina. But I digress... (and yes, I know that Rivera will get in and people will say that he did his job better than any other player did theirs... but I don't like it and we can agree to disagree)

Super surprised about this - and kinda bummed at the watering down of the hall.

Baines never got above 6.1% of the HOF vote and was off the ballot in 4 years. It's now the hall of "he's ok"

Gotta agree with the watering down comment. Doesn’t seem like either of these guys made that significant of a contribution and/or had a real HOF career. High level contributors but not HOF.


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Sorry missed where it says great in the name. Honestly the place is a museum to tell the games history. I have no problem with a guy with 2866 career hits getting in or a player who was considered at one time to be the games best closer. But then again I believe in a large hall and have no problem with relief pitchers. Good for both gentlemen and I hope they can enjoy the honor with out receiving too much hate from the peanut gallery.

you really don't think "hall of fame" implies "great"?

Well, all I can take away from this is that Mattingly will get in.


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At this rate, someday I’ll get in!!


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Someone that averages .289, 22hr, 93 rbi's as a right fielder/dh and played in a single world series is not a hall of famer in my opinion.

Baines played for a long time - thanks to the DH rule. He led the league in one offensive category, once in his career (1984, slugging percentage). He received MVP votes in only 4 seasons, never finishing higher than 9th! All star in 6 seasons, out of 22.

Even as a Hall of "Fame", he certainly wasn't famous or thought of as being that great during his career. I grew up in Chicago in the 70's and 80's; I don't recall too many magazines with his photo on the cover (other than 2 Baseball Digests).

The Hall is certainly being watered down.

I won't even get into Smith, except to point out that his 1,286 innings pitched will be the 5th fewest. Two of the guys with fewer IPs are Satchel and the Babe. The other 2 are Hoffman and Sutter. (Rivera had 1,283 IPs and was head and shoulders better than those 3 other relievers.)

Good grief. BAINES??????????????????????????????????

Hey, Guys - I think I may have a chance next time.


Please vote for me...I only got to College level...but, what the hell, while the doors left open.


But seriously, no one who has already been through the BWAA without getting in should get in before Minnie Minoso and Luis Tiant!

The hall of fame now has lower-case letters.

=

suddenly johnny sain doesn’t seem as ridiculous of a suggestion

Baines does not hold a candle to Albert Belle or Dick Allen or even Dale Murphy.

Smith in but no Tiant or Tommy John?

Getting closer to the Hall of Lame...

I'd have taken Joe Carter or Albert "don't call me Joey" Belle over Baines.

At least Carter a had 10x100RBI years in 16 seasons and Joey had 9x100RBI years in 12 seasons.

Baines and Carter had similar lifetime SA (both more than 30 points below .500). Joey had a respectable lifetime SA of .564, pretty good.

In any case it's done so congratulations to Baines (and Smith).

Could you imagine if Vegas took odds on selections. Baines would have been a long shot (IMO).

Lee Smith is long over due- he was in the generation that redefined the position and he ended his careers with the all time lead in the main thing that he did - name another star where the all time leader had to wait years for induction. Furthermore for as much as everyone wants to denigrate the save, there is a reason that most pitchers may have a good year or two but burn out hundreds of saves short of 478- it hard and the leash is short

Harold Baines should go down as one of the worst- Chick Hafey bad- if he’s in then Andres Galarage and Edgar Martinez have to fly in, then we have to make room for all of the guys who would have been able to play until they are 40 because of the dh -

Joe Adcock
Gil Hodges
Buzz Arlett
Ted Kluziski (sp)
Roy Seivers
Greg luzinski (sp)
Vic Wetz
Mickey Vernon
Hank Sauer
Hank Bauer
Dolf Camilli
Al Rosen
Gavy Cravath
Wally Moses
About 100 guys that I can’t think of right now

The REAL travesty is George Steinbrenner receiving 4 votes or less. If anyone of the eligible were to be elected, it should have been Steinbrenner. That man was a HoF'r all the way.

The 1981 and 1994 strike years cost Baines 3000 hits or he’d already be in.

I still don’t think he stands out as an all time great though

Fred McGriff surely has a more impressive resume than Baines, no? Larry Walker? Dwight Evans? Dave Parker?

I feel like abandoning my post war HOF collection now. I can't believe I now have to buy RCs of these two. LOL.

Hall of Fame Statistics





Black Ink
Batting - 3 (560), Average HOFer ≈ 27

Gray Ink
Batting - 40 (655), Average HOFer ≈ 144

Hall of Fame Monitor
Batting - 66 (311), Likely HOFer ≈ 100

Hall of Fame Standards
Batting - 44 (121), Average HOFer ≈ 50

JAWS
Right Field (74th):
38.7 career WAR / 21.4 7yr-peak WAR / 30.1 JAWS
Average HOF RF (out of 25):
72.7 career WAR / 42.9 7yr-peak WAR / 57.8 JAWS

Me too, Peter

This is who we can blame:

The 16-member Hall of Fame Board-appointed electorate charged with the review of the Today’s Game Era features Hall of Fame members Roberto Alomar, Bert Blyleven, Pat Gillick, Tony La Russa, Greg Maddux, Joe Morgan, John Schuerholz, Ozzie Smith and Joe Torre; major league executives Al Avila (Tigers), Paul Beeston (Blue Jays), Andy MacPhail (Phillies) and Jerry Reinsdorf (White Sox); and veteran media members/historians Steve Hirdt, Tim Kurkjian and Claire Smith.

=

That's funny! :p

Too many ballplayers on that committee, cronyism. Like when all those above average 1930s infielders got in. If I were Dick Allen I would be disgusted.

The Baseball Hall of Fame voting, in exactly the same manner as post-season awards, is basically a scam. In both cases, most of the voters are sports writers (and in the case of Baines and Smith, I know it is different, but it is reflecting the overall process), and these writers spill more ink writing stories on predicting who will win awards or make the hall than actual news coverage of the sport. If it weren't for "Mid Season Awards" and "New Retiree's Chances of the HOF" stories, media outlets could slash their sports staffs by more than half. When the people who get to determine the outcome are also the ones declaring how important the outcomes are, it's a huge red flag to me that those outcomes are mostly meaningless.
That said, I also never enjoy the bashing of players who make it or are up for election, but that's always how it goes. I'd rather have more guys get in so we can keep celebrating the history of the game, different players and different eras and so forth. Celebrate, not denigrate.

I hear you and I felt bad after the opening post - especially when Glyn voiced his irritation. My first thought when I heard it was “wasn’t he traded for Steve Kemp?” And then I remembered it was Chet Lemon. I don’t begrudge him and his appearance and autograph fees probably just tripled. I just think about when I started collecting/watching around 78-79 and I think about 78-84 and the cards with the all-star logo - Dave Parker, Steve Garvey, Jim Rice Fred Lynn, etc - I never put Harold in their class and except for Rice after a long wait, those guys can’t get in. So that is my point of reference- right or wrong. But I mean no disrespect

Got to get these 2 guys ( Baines and Smith) out of my Commons bin and send the Rookie Cards in for grading.

These HOFERS will add about $8.00 to my collection too.
Breaking the bank for HOF RC is a thing of the past!

yeah I am guessing the pop reports are going to double or triple on these guys

Yeah I don't think anybody is denying that these two men were excellent baseball players or taking anything away from them personally. But it's fair comment to say one doesn't think they belong in the Hall, or compare unfavorably to others not in the Hall, etc.

I hope the HOF has the building plans and funds laid out for a massive expansion to their hof room and museum. Baines enjoyed a very nice career, but he is simply not a hof'er..that is clear. If Baines is in, that opens the door for ALOT of retired players who also enjoyed nice big league career's.. Mcgriff, Mattingly, Murphy, Martinez, heck Bill Buckner too...watered down and sad.

This has got to be good news for Omar Vizquel who is now the only guy with 2800 hits (other than steroid users) not in the HOF.

Not sure if this is a joke or not (sorry) but Steinbrenner was once suspended for two years, was once banned permanently before being reinstated and he was one of the owners during the steroid era, who obviously knew what was going on, had no problem getting rich off of it (and also rewarding its use), but threw players under the bus completely when MLB got busted.

He has no business even being on the ballot with that resume. If a player got a two-year suspension, banned and was part of the steroid era, they wouldn't get a vote. He's like a much worse version of Manny Ramirez (meaning steroids/suspensions), who will never get in.

The ghosts of Harry Hooper, Joe Tinker, Rabbit Maranville and George Kelly are smiling tonight in baseball heaven...and somewhere Buck Weaver is softly crying.

There's no way Harold Baines was better than Minnie Minoso. They played in the same ballpark for most of their careers, and not only was Minnie's OPS was 28 points higher, but he won Gold Glove awards during three of the first four seasons they gave them out. Meanwhile, Baines didn't even play in the field.

About time Big Lee got in. Great player, better person, and funny as all get out. He is a personal friend of mine and I know his family. Had him as my coach 4 out of 5 years that I went to Cubs camp.

Guess I gotta move my signed TTM 1981 Fleer Baines card to my autographed HOF rookies section now.

Most if not all of us here watched him play his entire career...did anyone ever consider him a Hall of Fame caliber player?? Wow.

Only when he looked like he had a shot at 3000, and only for that reason. Smith at least got some reasonably strong consideration for many years from the writers, so while it's debatable it's not an OMG moment.

I'm from Chicago. A Cubs fan. Saw Lee Smith pitch.

HE BLOWS!!!!! BLEW, whatever.

Worst pitcher to ever get in.

Joke.

Here is the argument for Baines: Upon his retirement, Baines ranked seventh in American League history in games played (2,830) and tenth in runs batted in (1,628). Noted as well for his power hitting in clutch situations, he is tied for seventh in AL history in grand slams (13), fourth in three home run games (3), and tied for seventh in major league history in walk-off home runs (10). Baines batted over .300 eight times and hit .324 in 31 career postseason games, topping the .350 mark in five separate series.

That said, I don’t like the selection

and Baines.....good grief.....can't wait now til Dave Concepcion gets in, Warren Cromartie and Mickey Rivers!

I hate the negativity toward these players I've been seeing. It's not like they asked to be elected. Now everyone is crapping on them...

Tito
 

I hear that Tito Fuentes is waiting by his phone....

I think its time to start hoarding John Franco cards.

Exactly!

I'm not sure what the shock with Harold Baines in the HOF is. He is #46 on the all time hits list. Everybody on that list from 1-53 is in the HOF except those tainted by steroids, gambling or aren't eligible yet because they are still active and one other player (Omar Vizquel). Sure he's borderline, but I think his era is underrepresented, and I'm fine with him getting in.

Dick Allen was one of the most feared hitters of his era. I think of him as a Hall of Fame caliber player, and he should already be in.

Cooperstown is replicating Canton. If a former FB player can tell the diff between a golf ball and a football, well, he's in at Canton! Case closed . . . :(

Fine players, but I can probably come up with 30 players more deserving. I saw the veterans committee has both Baines former manager and owner on it, which helps explain it. Veterans committee nominations seem to be almost random, while the writers tend to do a pretty good job on the whole

Lots of these guys (I’m sure Baines is one) politic to be hall of famers. I personally don’t think these two are hall worthy but I get your point on crapping all over them. You have to be good enough to be considered and they both were. But I think it gets dicey when your former manager is on the committee and I’m sure friends etc.

Didn’t Rick Ferrell get in because someone asked people to vote for him so he wouldn’t get shut out and be embarrassed by getting no votes? That’s not how the hall of fame should work.

I collect hof signed baseballs (I grabbed these two last night lol) and all of their Topps Base Cards. Looks like I have some searching todo for some 80’s-90’s Baines/Smith cards!

Jack Morris, Harold Baines, Lee Smith, and Trevor Hoffman are in.

That means that Keith Hernandez, Curt Schilling, and Rusty Staub, three of my all-time favorites, need to be in.

Reports are that Baines was "surprised" he got elected. I don't view him as a Hall of Famer but he didn't campaign (like Gossage and Santo) and certainly didn't want this negative attention. From all reports, Baines is a quiet and good man. I think he was an outstanding ballplayer, just not Hall of Fame worthy.

I'm surprised Jerry Reinsdorf didn't vote himself in.

I can't believe we live in a world where Harold Baines and Lee Smith can get into the HOF but Gil Hodges and Mike Mussina can't.

Lee Smith & Harold Baines??
 

I missed where the rules say you have to “define your generation” to be a Hall of Famer. It’s not just the Hall of Household Names.

You have the Ruths, Aarons, and Seavers in the HOF and then you also have the Pie Traynors, Rabbit Maranvilles, and Rube Marquards. It’s made up of all of them. It’s been this way almost literally since the beginning.



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Amen. Very good point.


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Seems like everybody who really deserves it gets in eventually. (By my reckoning, the 7 best players not yet in the Hall of Fame have all played in the current century.) In order for that to be true the system has to be loose enough that some questionable choices slide in too. I wouldn't have voted for Baines or Smith, but I understand why the people who are allowed to vote don't include me.

The following article helps put this into focus:


http://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/2...ines-lee-smith

While I definitely question Baines being in the HOF, there have been some good points to attempt to justify his inclusion including underrepresentation of his era and his longevity stats.

It is sad that some other great guys (Allen, Minoso, Hodges etc) are still shut out but I do enjoy the fringe guys getting in. It shows that the HOF is imperfect and human and always will be. Anyone who dumps on Baines right now and calls his selection the reason the HOF is "watered down" but goes out and spends $$$ on cards/autos of guys like Marquard, Bresnahan, Jennings, Maranville, Kelly, Traynor, Schalk, Ferrell, Hafey, Haines, Combs, Bottomley, Lindstrom, Travis Jackson et al because they are "vintage Hall Of Famers" needs a comparative history lesson of how the HOF isn't some sacred place reserved for the upper echelon of players.

Congrats to Harold and Lee!

+1
 

Well said, Glynn. I’m happy for Harold, one of the nicest guys in baseball.

At least we don't have to question if Baines was a juicer. Similar to Lance Johnson the bat swung him.

My 2 cents-- or perhaps it worth 1-1/2 cents-- is, yes, Baines is not deserving, but Smith is a fair choice. Smith was the all time saves leader at one point, and was acknowledged during his playing days as one of the best relievers. His election certainly doesn't offend my senses.

I agree the HOF should be more exclusive. Perhaps not as exclusive as some would want, but more exclusive than it is. Wouldn't offend me if they retroactively took the rake and removed some outliers-- though I assume that would never happen.

The funny thing is the Pro Football HOF is much more exclusive. There are regular complaints that deserving and candidates are shut out by the numbers game. The people who do get selected each year are almost the genuine cream of the crop.

If relievers belong in the hall of fame, then I think Lee Smith is a fair choice. The irony is that the longevity for which we often (and perhaps fairly) leads to an indictment of the Baines/Sutton types as "compilers" is very elusive for closers. While you get an occassional Thigpen or Mark Davis, Smith had more than 30 saves eleven years in a row. You could argue the value of a save, but it's a fairly globally accepted measure of productivity.

Metrics of course aren't everything, but sheesh Baines ranks as the 74th best right fielder of all time according to JAWS. He's so far down the list it isn't even funny. Exactly what did he do other than play a long time at a decent level that offsets the tale told by that metric?

I think guys like Allen, Belle, Oliva, Murphy, Garvey who were among the top few best players in the game for a stretch of 5-7 or so years are more worthy.

I don't think anyone would say Lee Smith was better than Rollie Fingers or Dennis Eckersly, both of whom overlapped with his career. He was left out for a reason. Nothing has changed in the time between.

Closers only pitch one inning..usually only in the game half an inning..or only 3 outs worth

At least Baines got 4-5 at bats in a game.

I always felt closers besides elite elite like M. Rivera are guys that are one or 2 bad seasons away from being the 25th guy like Axford and the list goes on..

Being a DH is fine to be in the HOF as long as they let closers in ....any number 2 starting pitcher could of been a decent closer i believe..

The simple fact is that the Hall of Fame voters, or at least enough of them, had signed Harold Baines rookie cards in their collections.

Rob M

Part of that reason was that he was unpopular with the sportswriters and did not have a dandy memorable thing like a handlebar Finger's handlebar mustache or Gossage's mutton chops or Hoffman's Hell's Bells.

I know W-L isn't that meaningful for a reliever, but Smith was 71-92, that has to be the worst percentage of any HOF pitcher, no?

So, with that qualification, can we expect your imminent enshrinement next summer in Canton? How's the speech coming? And, can I get a reduction on your pre-HOF auto? :D

Do not feed the troll!! :D

If they are in the HOF, Roger Maris should be in the HOF......just saying.

From the perspective of a White Sox fan in Chicago, I absolutely love the choice of Harold Baines for the Hall. For a team that has been around since 1901, the White Sox have had a long history of lousy outfielders. Baines is actually one of the best outfielders in the history of the team -- we're talking over 100 years! I've had to suffer through the likes of Wayne Nordhagen and Dan Pasqua. The Sox have nothing for 2019. Baines election to the Hall is all Sox fans have to look forward to in 2019. Stop hating on Harold. There are a lot of folks in these parts that love the man.

I just could never figure out the obsession with Mariano Rivera. The guys who's he's pitching to have played nine innings out in the 90 plus degree heat. He comes in for a half inning all refreshed from sitting around a whole game not in the heat pitching to guys who are tired playing a whole game and all of a sudden he's an elite pitcher. Give me a break.

Maybe you should take a look at his numbers, pal. I watched him play every day. The game was essentially over as soon as he entered it. Even more so in the post season. Inning per inning he is probably the greatest pitcher of all time. I can not think of a single name I'd rather hear coming into any game in any era on any planet other than Mariano Rivera.

+1 from a Red Sox fan

Two names I haven't seen listed here really deserve consideration IMO:
Ken Boyer and Vada Pinson.

IMO Rivera is a no-brainer HoF inductee and this comes from a guy who is no fan of the Yankees. He was just ridiculously effective as a closer. When you are in the conversation re:the best ever at your position you have to be in the Hall.

I also this Lee Smith has a sold case. Baines, not so much. Not while Hodges, Allen, McGriff, & Mattingly are on the outside looking in.

Hall of Fame debates are always interesting to me. As long as they remain civil. :cool:

I am hoping this was tongue in cheek?