"RESTORED" Wagner - how should we feel about this as collectors?
 

ML auction opened this week, there is some great stuff in there. Got my catalog in the mail yesterday. Was excited to see how the T206 Wagner did. Not a card I can afford, but always like watching the action on these.

The catalog had the regular write-up for a card of this caliber, which in my opinion has gotten so overdone. These cards don't need that level of description and hype, but that's a discussion for another day. What I didn't realize was just how extensive the "restoration" was on this card. The catalog doesn't show the back, but you can see it on the website. The back makes it much easier to see signs of just how much "grafting" of the borders was done. The description almost hypes the $14,000 spent fixing this thing up.

Sure - it looks nice I guess, but as a collector, this thing isn't REALLY a T206 any more.

I've been saying for years now that high end cards act much more like artwork when it comes to pricing, so maybe in some way this kind of thing was to be expected. However, at some level for me, this card has been so altered at this point, it's not really an "original" anymore. Using the artwork analogy, this seems more like a lithograph or a limited edition print than it does an original.

Or maybe think real estate - we can now just invest in some "remodeling" costs to make cards look better? I know there's other things like bleaching, etc. that have been done, not a fan of that either really but this was pretty extensive.

Just wondering how other people view this sort of restoration project.

EDIT: Added pictures of before and after, courtesy of t206resource.com
https://i.imgur.com/nYW9OtFl.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/HQEoQEdl.jpg

I agree 100%. What happened to the day when this sort of thing was frowned upon?? Maybe I’m too much of a purist, but even soaking for me is borderline.

The amount of money in the hobby these days ensures the “old days” of considering anything done to the card to improve condition being sac religious are gone.


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At least it has been fully disclosed! With the skyrocketing prices for high-end cards, there is too much at stake to believe that many (most?) PSA 8 and above pre-war cards have been altered to some degree or another without full disclosure.

I agree with the OP, cards are not like fine art or real estate that are enhanced by restoration. I prefer my cards to have a little wear and tear on them, it makes them more genuine. But I collect as a hobby, not as an investment, and I am not trying to beat the market.

I can see the interest in having an authentic sample of the hobby's most iconic card, even if it has been altered, for some collectors. It will be interesting to see how much this card brings versus recent low-quality, unaltered versions.

I look at it more like restored cars with new parts vs a numbers matching survivor. I dont need my cards soaked, grafted, bedazzled, or recolored. The character is lost when you give them a tummy tuck.

I actually think that this type of restoration is a sign of the hobby maturing. All others areas of collecting - art, cars, books, musical instruments - have fully embraced restoration. If we reconzize what we collect as beautiful and worthy of perseveration it is a natural step to do this type of work.

There is still an obsession within the hobby to prevent any profiteering off of the enhancement and alteration of cards, even if those enhancements are so discreet that they are barely noticeable, or not noticeable at all. Collectors are willing to "punish" the card at auction with a deep price cut.

With that said, collectors don't seem to have a problem at all with the "natural" alterations, such as pinholes, dirt, or the creases from the kid who used the card as a bicycle spoke.

It's a philosophical problem. One of perception.

Perhaps, but the natural alterations tell a story. A grossly restored t206 does not; it becomes a piece, not a card.

What story can you possibly glean from a crease? That's just romantic gobbledygook, IMO.

The Wagner is a valuable commodity first, and a card second, and it should be thought of as such.

1a & 1b are the after and before for this card:

http://www.t206resource.com/Wagner-Gallery.html

Here is a recap of what was done:

http://www.t206museum.com/page/perio...KJgXVTDKOQ1U2I

That 1a/1b job is not a restoration, that's a huge reconstruction.

I suppose if the card is doctored and then sold it would only be right if the before/after pictures are disclosed during the auction or prior to the private sale.

How would you feel if the front was used but the back was completely changed with a period back?

I'm not against restoration/reconstruction as long as there is full disclosure. Perhaps this is a turning point in the hobby where this is going to be more widely accepted and common place.

Does anybody know how many hours were spent on the Wagner ($14K) reconstruction job?

Jobu - Thanks for posting this, I was hoping someone knew where a picture of the original was.

Yes, they disclosed the card had work done to it, but the side by side gives a much better indication of just HOW EXTENSIVE that work was, not just on the borders but on the back.

Anyone want to change their opinion now?!?!

Jason19th - I thought about this and was wondering if someone might suggest it's a sign of the hobby maturing. I'm not sure I agree, but it is something to consider. I think it's a very complicated issue, especially if the concept of these being "commodities" is going to continue.

I do worry that while these sorts of issues have certainly brought more interest and money into the hobby, it's not necessarily improved education and knowledge. For permanent sustainability, I think it all needs to go hand in hand.

I was
 

going to start a thread just like this....


I agree 100% .... with poster

That's a pretty cool web page with the different Wagner's shown in pre-restoration and pre-slabbed states.

Is there a reason the McNall/Gretzky Wagner isn't shown side by side with the uncut panel and the slabbed card?

And you've made my point.

The Wagner, as is any sports card, is many things to many people. I'm not sure it's helpful to portray any card as solely one thing first and all else second.

I don't have an answer, but this makes me wonder why the sports card hobby
HAS to follow the lead of other hobbies when it comes to restoration. I'm sure there are differences, perhaps subtle or not, in how each of the other hobbies you mentioned handles restored works (not to mention differing reasons for the restorations). But there's nothing that should dictate that sports cards follows suit and plays by another hobby's book.
I think (stress: think) that it's probably a sign of the health of the hobby that there are enough people to be on various sides of the restoration debate. And I hope that there is enough respect for those who are against restoration, of which there are a large number, that all restoration work is divulged. If that can happen, I think both sides can be happy.

I don't have any issue with the restoration. It is fully disclosed and the card looks 1000% times better now.

+1

Wow thats not a touch up thats a recreation. I think id rather keep it the way it was

I dont know... taking tobacco off the back, retouching a scrape on the front, even slight a trim maybe, but just creating a card on over an origional isnt what id like

I think all of us would prefer an unrestored to a restored copy of a card. However, sometimes because of price or rarity this is impossible. In those cases I am fine with restored copies. The Wagner is nice looking and will sell for a fraction of what a similar appearing unrestored copy would sell for, bringing it into the availability of more collectors. This is not the only restored copy of a rare card in s current auction. LOTG has a restored Ward Four Base Hits in it's auction ending Saturday. In this case it is literally the only way for a collector to get the card. There are two known copies and the unrestored copy, which sold for between $150,000 and $200,000 in a private sale, is buried in an advanced collection and not coming out. In both cases and others, the restored copy should sell for 10-20% of the unrestored copy, depending on the appearance and the amount of restoration.

+1

The hobby has matured in many ways the last 10 or so years...not all for the good...nut maturation has occurred!

I don't think that photo has been made public. I believe the original seller says he has a photo but won't share it. The cutter is in the clink and there is little hope of getting an image out of him - even if he kept one.

good luck with the four base hits

Re-cutter. The card had already been cut off the strip when he bought it.

I'm not comfortable with the AUTHENTIC designation. An authentic card should be one that is 100% original, but has a major problem like a missing piece or a punch hole that doesn't qualify it for a numerical grade.

But the added paper, coloring, glue, etc. is not authentic to the card. It is foreign material. I think it should read RESTORED in the upper right corner, and the word AUTHENTIC be removed.

Do others agree with this?

Anyone see it in person? I'd guess it will be in white plains tomorrow. Almost looks a little amateurish with the black border lines drawn back in, and it looks like the added edge are still slightly separated. Could just be my phone though

It says Restored right on the top

I agree. Am I crazy to think that the card would have actually brought in more money had it not been reconstructed? I think they threw away 14k and lost more $ in the process. For the record, I have no problem with this as long as it is disclosed, but I think collectors will pay more for a rough example.

Yes, I know. I would leave the RESTORED part and remove the AUTHENTIC. I really don't feel that is an authentic card in the strictest sense. Parts of it are, but not all of it. At minimum, a better description is warranted.

I agree, Jason. What makes cards different is the grading aspect, and most card collectors preoccupation with it for better or worse.

They had it at the National.

Restoring the card itself is one thing, but adding "borders" to a borderless card that is just not right.

What did the Wagner look like before it was restored?

LOL. Yeah that was sorta the same thought I had.

$14,000 for restoration? Heck you can buy a reprint for $2.00.

I understand that the card is worth at least 200K based on its current price, but I wouldn't pay $100 for it otherwise. I don't mind a trimmed card if the card is impossible to get otherwise -- or prohibitively expensive -- but no way do I want a Frankencard in my collection with unoriginal parts brought into it. It's one thing to color in a border, an entirely different to bring a new border into the card.

I would buy the original, not the restored. No way.

A GEM MINT 10 reprint might cost you a couple more bucks...but at least it's graded and you know it's an authentic reprint.

Is there a link to the auction with the Wagner that was restored to the tune of $14K?

Agreed. If they can add borders, why not just do the corners up as well and make it a gem mint / restored.

pics added to the first post for those who aren't able to click through the links provided by Jobu

that's not entirely accurate. i believe restoration is pretty common for comic books isn't it?

i probably view restoring a comic as being somewhat different than what happened here, but it's also why i asked the question originally.

good discussion so far, obviously there is no "right" answer. however, if this sort of restoration work becomes more prevalent with cards, what does that lead to? somewhat loaded question obviously, since there are disclosure issues, TPA issues, among others.

the nice thing about buying a card that has a border added is you're really getting two cards for the price of one.

If the only Wagner I could afford was a trashed one or a restored version of the trashed card, I would probably go with the restored one(assuming most of the card was original). However, I respect Jeff’s opinion; it is a matter of personal preference.

I agree with this. In this case, I would rather have the restored version. Although I appreciate anyone else's different opinion.

That's one heck of a restoration job though.

I saw it in their case at the Chantilly show in October. I couldn’t see the back. The front looked like an attractive, mid-grade example from a distance. From close up, to me anyway, it looked like someone had hand drawn on some of the lines. The other repairs were not really detectable to my untrained/unassisted eyes, but the lines were.

The sad thing is that the original before restoration wasn't so bad.

Spot on, Anson. I am into collecting comics just about as deeply as cards, and the term "restored" is frequently used to describe books that are in some way (color, staples, "married" pages, etc) artificially "improved" to enhance appearance. As is proper, these comics do not command the price values of real books of the same issue and title. For those of you who convince yourself that "restoration" is okay because it is done with cars or books, consider that those objects can be made up of hundreds of separate pieces. Cards are just front and a back. Seems pretty cheap to "restore" something like the Wagner compared to restoring a 1940s Rolls Royce, doesn't it? Those of you who can convince yourselves it is okay won't be dissuaded. I, for one, wouldn't own a "restored" card- it is cheating ( it is just that other folks KNOW you are cheating). Sermon over.

+1. Nothing wrong with it as long as there is full disclosure, and in fact I too believe future collectors will embrace it on that basis. Not that such a restored example of any rare and valuable card will bring the $$ an original would in the same condition, but I think it will eventually be commonplace for such a restoration to be accepted as significantly more valuable than the rag it originally was. After all, who wants to brag they have a Wagner, but when asked to show it, they are too embarassed by it's supreme beater condition to even show it?

Just my humble opinion,

Larry

Nope.

Larry

Now that I would buy!

Hi, Barry,

Larry

I don't think there will ever be a "right" or "wrong" answer--just preferences, together with price differences between an original and restored version. IMHO, the latter will vary in proportion to the rarity, significance and popularity of the card.

Good thread,

Larry

I think that depends upon your tolerance for beater supremes, Jeff. Along with my PSA 7 R316 Ott rookie, I have one in SGC poor that I bought on a whim some years ago because it was the best centered one I had ever seen. However, it also has a tack hole through Mel's hat brim, and appears to have had the lower right corner chewed off by the original owner's dog! Some days I can tolerate it and some I have difficulty with even keeping it. The former are when I think of what a truly great player Mel Ott was (155 OPS+, tied with Hank Aaron, and just one point behind Mays; 180% plus of league average runs created, placing him in the same category with each of the two above, along with Mize and Foxx; average full season over his career of approximately .304 BA, 30 HR, 100 RBI, 100 walks, and .414 OBP, 12-time all-star, and 6-time HR leader). I am personally not one who suffers beaters easily unless they are ultra rare and significant, and the '29 R316 Ott, while relatively scarce (the '29 Leader Novelty is out and out rare!), is not rare.

Just had to get that out of my system, I guess. To those of you reading this thread, my apologies for the literary outburst!

Larry

I would be concerned with what the card will look like 10 years from now

The restoration was 9 1/2 years ago.

+1


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On the plus side, no centering or corner issues! From the lot description:

"Near-perfect centering between the added upper and side borders, even corner wear reflecting VG/EX quality, and a virtually completely enhanced Sweet Caporal 150 Subject, Factory 25 verso...."

I agree that there is a difference between restoration and such a wholesale change with foreign parts that there is a question if the card can be considered original/authentic. As a collector of original items, I wouldn't be interested in the latter. "Some of it is original" isn't enough for me. If someone else doesn't have a problem with owning it, I'm not going to argue with them as it is in part a matter of personal sentiments, taste and philosophy. People collect game used jerseys with added on missing nameplates and numbers.

One instance where major wholesale change with foreign material is justifiable to me is when the central image is majorly damaged. I still wouldn't want to own it, but I understand and appreciate why that would be done.

Am not a fan of this at all. Where should one draw the line between restored and counterfeit?

I do wonder, if the owner was willing to do this to his card, why he didn't first cut it into 10 pieces and have the company turn them into 10 restored Wagners.

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Or to sell it to a manufacturer as a relic card!


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PSA refused to grade a 71T because they said color was added, why not a restored "grade."

RESTORED Wagner
 

Jason and Mike- ahh, the voices of reason! Thanks, guys. You gave voice to what I had trouble expressing late last night (too much turkey, I suppose). In the specific Wagner card that is the topic of this thread, the card is no better than a counterfeit. The original couldn't even be classified as a "card" anymore, it was a rag and thus not even "eligible" (in my mind, merely opinion) for slabbing in the first place. In this case the owner was honest enough to have it marked "restored"- although I think "reanimated" may be closer to the truth. What happens when/if someone does this, breaks it out, and passes it off as authentic- which it is NOT, no argument. It's a slippery slope...
As a comic fan who has an extensive collection, I can tell you I have exactly ZERO comics that have been "restored". The reasons are simple- the restorer had nothing to do with the production of the comic, and less ethical folks will try to pass them off as the real deal.

Wagner
 

Why wasn't the original card cut into pieces so that several 200k+ restored cards could be made?

Jeff....
 

I am in complete agreement with you :)

That's right, plant the seed.... That's actually a very good point. Either that or have a card company cut up a poor Wagner and then put them in packs like they do with uniforms and bats.

Fixing/filling a pin hole or adding a little color (black on an N300, for example) is one thing, completely reconstructing a card and adding a lot of material is completely different.

Does anyone know the selling price of the card before it was restored?

Some good comments and observations so far.

i was surfing around the internet this weekend, and saw several PSA cards marked
AUTHENTIC
ALTERED

Including things like markers to corners, color touch ups, etc.

I realize PSA put "RESTORED" on the Wagner, but wondering if most wouldn't agree that the card wasn't also "ALTERED"?

It was certainly recolored, along with the extensive work on the back.

I'd sure like to hear some commentary from PSA on how they ultimately made this flip determination.

You can’t restore the card without altering it. Restored is the only term you need.

This was my reaction as well.

Of course, I'm one of those weirdos who would rather have the totally-jacked original version in his collection.

"ALTERED" seems to carry a completely different connotation to it than "RESTORED" does, no?

If something is done to a card to make it look better than it did before, why wouldn't RESTORED apply almost every time?

Just wondering how exactly how that determination is made and when it changes from one to another.

At what point do you call a "restoration" something else? What's a term for a "total rebuild" (or complete overhaul) of the card? Adding borders and most likely taking the back from another card and overlaying seems to be a bit more than a "restoration" job. "Altered" seems a bit mild.

Frame off restoration

More like putting a Ferrari hood on a Pontiac Fiero.

As I understand it, restoration is bringing the card back towards it’s original state. Trimming, for example, may be done to improve its’ appearance, but it, in and of itself, is not restoration.

These flips are getting ridiculous....

I think you won the internet for today

You're right on target, Anson!

The way I read the restoration invoice was that most of the
back is original and the scrapbook paper was soaked off. You can see
some of the stains on the restored example that match the original.

As a bit of a purist I like the ragged one better. But it's not by a longshot nor do I matter as I am not spending that kind of money (I don't have that kind of money) on a card. The market will decide. And at the moment it's about a 200k decision. I suspect it gets some more action but who knows? The restored copy looks pretty darned good from a scan on a monitor.

Heck, we can't even trust the restoration invoice.... before/after pictures seem to do a good job.

Hard to believe a card could be restored like that. One day nobody will be able to tell a restored card from a real one, then what happens to value and who would want to buy them.

At what point too does an item become NOT the item anymore? If you own an axe used by George Washington and its made up of two pieces, the metal cutting piece and the wood handle, and you first replace the metal cutting piece, then replace the wood handle, is it still George Washingtons axe? I know this is the original card modified, but one day it will be a 99% new, then what is it?

Leon,

Can you please post a link to the item in the auction.

Thanks!