Upcoming Locations For The National
 

Just saw this:

2019 – Donald E Stephens Convention Center, Chicago, IL
2020 – Atlantic City Convention Center, Atlantic City, NJ
2021 – Donald E Stephens Convention Center, Chicago, IL
2022 – International Exposition (I-X) Center Cleveland, OH
2023 – Donald E Stephens Convention Center, Chicago, IL

I guess there are no plans for Baltimore anymore.

There are a few criteria that are needed for the National. If I remember correctly, the only/main issue with Baltimore was the dates (part of the first week in August) being tied up for some time by another convention. Most/all other of the items (contiguous space, dealers able to unload themselves, et al) were not an issue.

This is what I 'remember' hearing so I would yield to anyone who can confirm (or deny).

Yes, that is correct on Baltimore, They would love to do Baltimore again, but the dates and advance notice are a hindrance ===I would love Boston , but The National says the Unions, Hotels,etc don't make it work. But quite sure they Love the National in Chicago and Cleveland.

Why nothing west of Chicago? Seems like Las Vegas or someplace in SoCal would be great.

2006 was the last year it was on the West Coast, and now the earliest it could come back would be 18 years later.

Brian (suffering and weeping, forlorn and dejected like the rest of us rejected souls from the Pacific breezeway region of the US).

locations
 

I can't complain too much because I'm in between Chicago and Cleveland and driving to both is a piece of cake, but I really enjoyed going to Baltimore. Seeing some different dealers in other parts of the country would be great, too.....maybe someday.

Out west
 

One would think that somewhere in California, Oregon, Nevada, Arizona, Colorado, or Texas there would be a venue that would work.

I wonder how much time and energy has been spent researching venues other than the current three?

Rick

I'm with you, Jay. I live in the east, but would love to go to a west coast show.

that they decided to return to atlantic city is a head scratcher

Dallas, TX is a no-brainer and it's just stupid not to have it here at least once every couple of years.

If I remember correctly, this was talked about here on the forum a couple of years ago.

The selection of Chicago, Cleveland, and AC ( or any other East Coast location ) is very calculated. The goal is to drive attendance and make the venue accessible to as many as possible.

Consider the population base of the country. If we draw a circle of a 700 - 800 mile radius, most major population bases are covered by scheduling the National in Chicago, Cleveland, and an East Coast venue.

A venue in Dallas, Denver, or Las Vegas will not hit the population base like the locations already selected will.

I posted this elsewhere, but will add it here. Take it for what it's worth, which might not be much. :) (Note: Don previous added the 'advanced notice' aspect of this as well)

Here is what I remember from Mike Berkus' presentation a few years back. Keep in mind it's what I 'remember', so it may be off slightly. Also Mike has passed, so things (considerations) might have changed (related or not, to his passing).


The National requires the following criteria (in no particular order):

A ) Contiguous floor space to house the entire event. That leaves out smaller venues (like the Moscone Center in SF, I believe).

B ) Dealers must be able to unload and move their own stuff (inventory, showcases, etc). This eliminates those venues that 'require' venue workers to do the unloading and moving (such as some, but not all, that have unionized workers to do this).

C ) The time of the event. The National is always held to fall on (within?) the first week of August, meaning it could start in July and end in August. This has something to do with vacations and schools and other 'preferred' time related things (I think there were others, but don't remember). This is why they caught Baltimore a couple times but not since. I believe there is another convention that now has a long-time ANNUAL hold on those dates.


I think the above are 'givens', and there may be others. Beyond that, there also is a vote on locations (assuming above conditions). That means that while venues exist that might be viable candidates (Atlanta, San Diego, etc???), they will probably not happen, as dealers generally don't feel they get the turnout/sales for those locations (rightly or wrongly). Similar travelling to said locations can be a pain/factor to the dealers. Chicago meets all the above, is profitable, and a breeze to get in/out of for dealers, so it's a regular. (hearsay on) Atlantic City meets the A, B, and C above, but wasn't a popular choice like Chicago (probably the best for overall 'compliance'). AC was 'gifted' to the promoters so there was little/no out-of-pocket expense for the venue itself. (hearsay off)


So if you want to go to the National next year or 2023, there's no time like the present to make plans. 😊

I think the role of having Atlantic City in the mix is to make Cleveland seem more appealing.

Personally, I love that it's in AC. It's only a couple hours drive for me. :D

While I appreciate the AC convention - less than a 2 hour drive for me as well, the city itself is dreadful - think Gary, Indiana with sand - I have to imagine there are other venues in the DC to NYC area that hit all the check marks and are better situated for mass transit/interstates/major airports.

i love that it is in cleveland, only an hour drive for me. yet i can understand why it's not a great site overall.

I agree that it makes sense to do Nationals somewhere west of the Mississippi River from time to time, like Dallas or Denver.

Is there a reason why they keep rotating National in the same 2-3 cities?!

I don't get why they don't take the convention to other major cities across the US :confused: Gotta imagine CA, TX , FL would do well in helping gain new interest. Not sure keeping it in same citiies helps with exposure of the hobby.

There are many locations/venues that can't host the National for one reason or another:

Some venues are too small and/or don't have enough hotel rooms
Some venues not convenient to airports
Some venues/cities the union stuff too expensive and/or other legal issues
Some venues charge too much for having events in their building
Some venues/cities are not good baseball and/or sports towns
Some venues don't want it scheduled too far in the future. In other words, the venue wants the National committee to tell them practically in June or July that they want the show in their facility. But the National committee needs a few years in advance. (One of the Baltimore shows replaced Cleveland at the last minute a few years ago)

etc,... etc,... etc,...etc,... etc,... etc,...etc,... etc,... etc,...etc,... etc,...

After all of this analysis, it turns out Chicago and Cleveland are the only cities that don't have any of these issues and this is why they are considering alternating it between these two cities forever.

I keep hoping that someone will start a second National, a Winter National so to speak. Say, during Spring Training Season and alternating between Arizona and Florida venues. Even better, make this one a Vintage Pre-1980 National.

Val, I had the same thought as well, either as a complimentary show or to take the "national" over from the existing committee. As long as the existing committee is in charge, I'm not seeing the show moving. The question really comes down to do you think the corporate sponsors, dealers, auction houses, and autograph companies (like tri-star) would be open to doing a second, somewhat competing show? I think you would need to get everyone involved to really have a shot at a second show surviving.

There is talk about it. I love the National just not the way it's run.
And there seems to be some overwhelming support from dealers, AH's and others too, to have a different/another one.

I think at one of the Net54 dinners, someone from the National spoke and said one of the criteria is the ability to schedule three years in advance. Many places would not do that. Never understood why three years are required. Is there really that much planning?

Bob

I'd like to see a National in Boston too being such a great sports town but it would be absolutely insane for all the reasons stated and then some. I could write a book about Atlantic City in 'O3.

"I keep hoping that someone will start a second National, a Winter National so to speak. Say, during Spring Training Season and alternating between Arizona and Florida venues. Even better, make this one a Vintage Pre-1980 National."

That's a great idea. It makes so much sense to do a big show tied to spring training. There's never a time of year I'm more excited about baseball, and consequently, collecting. I love alternating between Arizona and Florida. I'm OK with a non vintage theme because I wouldn't want to discourage younger collectors. I suspect in time many will catch the vintage collecting bug.

I'm done with the National. It was nice when they occasionally made it to the West Coast. It was worth the hassle and cost to see some great stuff (albeit most of it overpriced) and chat with folks. I think the cons start to outweigh the pros when I have to fly across the country to attend. The money I save could be used to buy something pretty nice.

Completely agree with this. There are plenty of Western venues that can meet the necessary criteria. The National is basically giving the middle finger to anyone who lives west of the Mississippi. They could mix in Dallas, Denver, LA, San Diego, Las Vegas, Seattle, and a handful of other cities in which you can actually catch a direct flight.

Atlantic City... what a joke, and a logistical nightmare.

DJ, I think "more is better" to an extent. In fact, I think the hobby will eventually get to 3-4 Nationals a year - each in a different season, and each in a different geographical area of the country. Now then, this may adversely affect a few of the large regional shows (e.g., the Chantilly Show). I have little doubt that the major dealers, auction houses, TPGs, etc. would attend all of these Nationals. As I see it, REA is a good example for "more is better." REA went from 1 auction per year to 2 auctions per year to 3 auctions per year (beginning in 2019); and, REA is attending lots of regional shows nowdays (and so are several other auction houses). The risk to major hobby players for not attending the hobby's major shows is "snooze, you lose" IMHO.

Well, there are quite a few 3 day shows and a 4 day show but no other National types (4-5 days) where people fly in from coast to coast in anywhere close to the numbers the National gets. It's too bad. And I don't see it changing soon, unfortunately. I wouldn't doubt some more regional shows pop up though.

Anaheim would still be perfect in my opinion.

First, it is close to major airports, LAX and John Wayne. Hotels are plentiful and if I recall, no union issues with the convention center. Huge floor space. Last time it was there, I think there was extra space in the back that they curtained off. I also know Anaheim Convention Center books years in advance (Disney and others are booked years in advance).

Lastly, it is family friendly. There is a great deal to do in and around Anaheim, not the least of which is Disneyland, Knotts, water parks, museums, Angel Stadium, etc.

It is a shame they don't want it west coast. A west coast show once every five years would be great as it would draw a ton of people.

Joshua

I wish this would happen, but we are in a period of show decline, not increase. so i see almost no chance of additional successful nationals emerging. Again I wish they would but I don't see much chance of this happening it has become an internet world wether we like it or not. Most major dealers and auction houses used to do 30 to 50 shows a year many are now at less than 10. Shows are dying it is sad as i love them but I see almost 0 chance of 4 nationals unless almost al major regional shows disappear and this is all we get as far as major shows. I also believe much of the increased REA presence is due to new ownership being more aggressive and seeing the opportunity to create more revenue for themselves with a third auction, which again major auctions and ebay are the main thing killing shows.

+1,000,000

Since Mike Burkus' sad passing, how is it determined who serves on the National venue-deciding committee?

Glen:

When Mike Berkus was still with us, he explained in detail why we were not in Anaheim. And don't you think he would have loved doing a show in his home town area. I agree with you that Anaheim does check almost every box for a National except for getting most dealers east of the Mississippi there. It's also a good venue for events such as a Net 54 dinner

Rich

Having been involved with a few small shows here in LA, I can safely say that the idea of a second major show is a great one but the financial and time commitments are such that you would basically need to have no other job for a year and six figure financing to even attempt it. Even doing a local show is a $hit-ton of work, several hours for each hour of the show itself. You have to:

-Find a venue and lock it down
-Chase sponsors and lock down their commitments
-Procure insurance
-Establish the business entity and local licensure
-Create documentation (dealer contracts, etc.): if you aren't a lawyer with a good grasp of transactional needs, you will probably have to retain one.
-Arrange hotels and related amenities for traveling attendees
-Find dealers
-Get dealers commitments and $ and signed contracts
-Develop social media and other e-marketing
-Develop advertising and procure ads
-Arrange for whatever amenities are needed that the venue won't provide: we had to rent tables and travel across the county to get showcases for rental to out of town dealers
-Arrange for guest signers (if any) which also requires
--Payment of fee
--Preparation of tickets
--Arrangement for merch to sell for signatures
--Book a photographer for VIP meet and greet/photo ops
--Procure merch you want the guest to sign for you to sell later
-Arrange to attend every day of the show from doors open to the final booth is broken down

And then there are the inevitable unanticipated BS things you have to deal with. My group's last show nearly got shut down before it started because we rented a facility from a local school and some yo-yo with an overactive imagination showed up with guns: guns are illegal at schools for anyone other than a peace officer.

San Diego would be just as good or better....

* Very close proximity to airport (closer than Anaheim is to John Wayne)
* Ridiculous number of Hotels nearby (all along the waterfront, at/around the airport, Mission Bay, and Downtown/Gaslamp District)
* Huge Convention Center floor space (San Diego hosts Comic-Con)
* Perfect Weather
* Family-friendly (Seaport Village, Mission Bay, Belmont Amusement Park, The Zoo, The Beach, Wild Animal Park, Sea World, Deep Sea Fishing, Whale Watching, Horton Plaza, Midway Tours, Coronado Island, Del Mar Race Track, and much more)

How about once a decade? Asking too much?

Most of the dealers I know did very well at the last AC show. I know I found the public great to deal with and they spent money. The food was great and we found a reasonable place for lodging. It is a long haul for us, but the shoe is on the other foot in Chicago and Cleveland.

I'd love to see them throw the west coast a bone, even if it is only going to Denver. I won't drive all the way to the west coast. Did enough of that when I was in the Naval Reserve.

Has San Diego ever had a major card show? At least Anaheim is a proven venue. If you are going to ask dealers to come across the country, it needs to be to a proven location with a strong collector base.

Then how on earth did they choose Atlantic City?

Atlantic City had plenty of big shows going back to the 80s including the 500 home run club and the National in 1988. 2020 will be the 4th time the National has been there. A.C. is also in the heart of the NYC-DC corridor with tons of collectors.

The Hobby, seemingly in all aspects has evolved so much over the decades. I know Lionel Carter tried to start something of a convention in 1956 and it didn't work, but I think the history of sports conventions would be an interesting read. Does anyone have any literature one say, the first National? I'd be very curious to know how this stuff got off the ground and study how it got to where it is today. Thanks

Maybe they should look at Washington DC to make it easier for federal investigation professionals to attend.

It's been a while since they've done it on the west coast.

They always said Too Expensive to do, if I recall correctly.

The biggest issue with the West Coast is many East and Midwest dealers, who are the preponderance of dealers don't want to go west. Now, I think Anaheim is a great location but if Mike Berkus with all his persuasive powers could not get us there in the last few years of his life, we are not going there.

Regards
Rich

Hello, is anyone in this thread connected to the National? I know someone from Baltimore who would like to talk to them. Things have changed in the convention bureau.


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The geographic center of the United States is near Lebanon, KS.

Plenty of contiguous ground space if it doesn’t rain. I think there are two or three airports in Kansas, but not sure which one is closest or how far.

Native Angelenos have an expression “oh, you’re from back east”, which can be used to refer to anyone who was born east of San Bernardino.:D

So Vegas works because it’s back east. Anaheim does not. Both have indoor venues that would hold the entire metropolis of Lebanon, KS.:eek:

How about the lack of sales in Baltimore? Has that changed? I could live without Baltimore, Atlantic City, and Atlanta ever again. I live in the midwest and I agree with almost everyone that calls for the national to go back to California on a somewhat regular basis.

Most people I spoke with did fairly well in Baltimore. It's about as ideal as a set up for the Eastern Part of the country as any location.

Regards
Rich

Just floating perhaps a crazy idea-


How about a site near Cooperstown - close to Induction Weekend.



I've never been to a National and would never get to one on the west coast, however what I've suggested would be a can't miss for me.


=

Your best bet is next year in AC. Typically HOF weekend is the last weekend in July. The national is the first weekend in August. So you can do HOF on fri- mon then the national starts in AC on Wed-Thurs. About a 5-6 hour drive.

I’m not sure how close you want to get but since we are in the middle of nowhere there really isn’t anywhere close outside of Albany and Syracuse - both 1 1/2 hours away. Cooperstown itself couldn’t host such an event because the lack of venue, lack of an airport, no highway and lack of available accommodations in the area. Rooms are mostly booked during the summer and are very expensive. The closest major cities that would be appropriate are NYC and Boston - each about 4 hours away. AC and Baltimore are the closest recent locations.

I still say Vegas. Maybe it cost prohibitive w/ unions and all that. But that would be an amazing way to get more eyeballs on our hobby.

My guess is that I eventually quit going to the National or at least any of of them outside of Chicago. Hopefully there will be some well organized shows to take its place (for me). I think the people running the National are morons, from a business perspective. I would much prefer doing the Phllly show or another one that is put together and run better. And there is already talk of bringing the Net54baseball Dinner to The Texas Card Show next year. That said, this year there is already a contracted Net54baseball dinner in Chicago, at the Embassy Suites, as previously stated. Hope to see everyone there!!

Our two best Nationals in the last 13 years were Baltimore and Baltimore. Would love to return.

I know I've mentioned it to several people already, but I think now would be a good time for someone else to make a push at starting up a rival national (Leon hint hint with the new show:)). I don't think it would be possible in 1 year to switch people over and there are definitely some big hurdles to get over (signers, corporate booths, pulling dealers away), but I still think there may be an opportunity since so many people seem disgusted with the current management.

DJ

Frisco
 

Maybe Frisco, TX would be a good place for a second National? :)

If you really want to be in the DFW area you have to have a venue big enough for the purpose. We have outgrown the Arlington Convention Center and I think either Market Hall or the Dallas Convention Center are big enough. Each of these venues have other "issues" but nothing impossible to overcome.

Regards
Rich

Baltimore is by far the closest place for me and I loved both shows there, but since the riots the city is hurting, tourism, hotels and food are all significantly down. The past few seasons the hotel we stay at the Hilton, which you can walk to the convention center or look into Camden yards has been half of what it has been in years past. Not to mention Orioles attendance is down, and the only time you wait at restaurants is Friday or Saturday at prime times. While I would like to see it back in Baltimore I would think for now it’s time has passed. Maybe 10 years from now the city will have another resurgence but sadly right now it is a good place to avoid.

HQ Dallas Cowboys - Ford Center at the Star - Frisco TX
 

I am not a big Dallas proper fan. Lots of great people there, but going north a little, is more my taste. And I will go out on a limb and say that Frisco TX might be able to handle a larger show and have a big enough venue. The Ford Center (Cowboys HQ) has 510,000 square feet and is almost brand new. It still wouldn't be a gimee there as I am not sure how that all works :).
The current (April) Texas Card Show is happening just a few minutes from it. According to Money Magazine the 2018 best place to live in the US is Frisco TX. It is like a brand new city, all shiny and new, was built overnight. I think out of town dealers, vendors and hobbyists will love Frisco. There is no more vibrant place around here, imo, (though we don't live there.) We are happy in our current house of 20 yrs, which is about 25 minutes away. Otherwise Frisco would have been a great option. All just 1 opinion.

http://money.com/money/collection/20.../frisco-texas/

https://www.google.com/maps/uv?hl=en...oiowHnoECAIQBg

I’m glad some people did well in Baltimore, but I skipped the last one there. Keeping it away from the west coast is just wrong. That’s what happens when a clown show runs it and is only in it for the money.

PS: who limits tables when their is a long line of people that want a booth and ton of extra space in the venue???? I guess more corporate booths and giveaways is what collectors really want after all.

You can’t even get the promoters to return an email or phone call much less think outside the box. No one should wonder why our hobby is going down the drain. Only passionate collectors are left, the days of getting people to “drop in” to a show are long gone. They need a 2nd mortgage to pay admission and get a couple of autographs.

Good stuff, Leon! The show you have going in April could grow into a viable alternative. Obviously, I would be all for that. It is exciting to have something like that within 4 hours of my home!

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Orlando, Fl would be ideal

In my dreams. Live 2 hours from there and you also have universal, Disney, and a good airport. C9nvention center is huge so probably too big of a venue. But would be nice

I always thought St. Louis was a crazy baseball city. Are they not known for good baseball card shows ?

Rick, I like your idea, except let's make it The VINTAGE National - nothing newer than 1975 or 1980. I would come all the way from VA for this!

I'm not sure if the union is a plus in regards to dealing with the committee. They seem to get better deals in Chicago, Cleveland, and lately Atlantic City. I'd love to have seen another National in St. Louis before I get out of the business, but I think this year will be my last National before I ride into the sunset. My knees are barking like a trained seal.

I sell almost 100% vintage, but at these shows a mix of vintage and modern card dealers works well. I think the new card guys are invigorating the hobby somewhat, and I can see the day that some of them will cross over and be our vintage dealers. Fact is vintage dealers are aging rapidly, if that doesn't happen the hobby will be left without vintage dealers in plentiful supply.

Um the disaster that was the Baltimore Orioles in 2018 may have had something to do with that as well.

Long Beach Auditorium, Long Beach, California

The rare coin folks do just fine there for 4 days, 3 times a year.
Over 500 dealers.
On site Grading.
Lots of nearby attractions, Queen Mary, Disneyland, Dodgers, Angels

How does one age rapidly? :confused:

Modern dealers must age less rapidly then. :eek:

I thought everyone aged one year at a time. :D

I pretty much held my own from 60 to age 69. Now everything hurts all the time and there is not the same recovery. I see it with lots of other dealers as well.

I agree. My 22 year old son has gotten back into collecting over the last two years. He is into the Bowman Chrome prospect game. Lately he has been taking the proceeds from this and buying HOF Baseball and Football RC for his personal collection. A year ago he wouldn’t have been interested in vintage at all. I think the new shiny stuff gets their foot in the door and in time I think some gravitate towards vintage.

Nice, I will be able to go in 2020!