BGS Turnaround Time: Up to One Year
 

I was just told by CS that turnaround time for BGS non-guaranteed is between nine months and one year. Did not check on BVGS.

https://media.giphy.com/media/l3q2K5...oCLS/giphy.gif

Yes this was discussed on another thread, it's absurd.

Beckett
 

One year isn't too bad. They only have one part time grader and he is also required to do the janitorial work, so it takes a while to get the grading done, especially during the summer when he has to mow the lawn in front of Beckett's HQ.

Don't worry, I was told he washes his hand in between jobs.

Beckett Goes Slow (BGS)

One year to grade cards????? They might as well close up shop.

They cancelled their appearance at last weekend's card show in Concord, CA the day before they were to arrive.

two reasons
 

two reasons to send Cards to BGS
(A) never heard of PSA
(B) see answer A

It’s probably due to the volume of people submitting stupid stuff to be graded. One change I’d like to see, stop grading reprints. Seriously, what’s the point? Unless you’re trying to trick and deceive. Which should not be allowed.

Even newer cards. If it's not a 9.5 or 10, then there's really no point.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showth...155093&page=23

Read the whole thread and it will feel like its unfolding.

OMG I just read through that thread and it is shocking.

I always knew Beckett found itself in a tough spot once they lost so much market share to PSA and had their subscription business collapse in the early to mid 2000's but this is very serious.

Not only does is say they are tying submitters money up the entire time which is north of a year at this point, there is also no communication. There are definitely plenty of collectors who have and love BGS graded cards but this kind of reputational damage can really be an issue for any company. They can't afford to lose their hard core BGS fans at this point.


This is going to be very interesting to follow as the length of wait has been consistently growing so it doesn't necessarily have to stop at 12 months.


I am not in anyway privy or even suggesting BGS goes under right now but if they did what happens to your cards? Would they be easy to get back? Sounds scary.

One would think this must be having a drastic effect on new submissions so the problem should self-correct, if they survive that is

Check out this thread. Yikes.


https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1231475

Yeah, that seems like an isolated incident. That's why I didn't cross-post it. But I agree with the guys that said it's odd that someone would submit so many expensive 1/1 superfractor autos as bulk submission RCRs. If the cards are worth $500+ each, splurge for an actual slab and not a cardsaver with a sticker on top.

I can't speak to the proper way to submit at the National for a quick turn around but I do think it is just additional evidence things are not going well from an operational standpoint with them.

I would be so pissed off if I sent in cards to a company and they charged me upfront and we are now past 12 months and they still have my cards.

If they were to go BK you would have very little chance of getting the grading fees back and I would honestly be petrified about getting the cards. To a lot of us that submit cards for grading many of them you can't easily replace and in some cases ever so it isn't just a monetary issue.

True, the taking the funds for a year and "holding cards hostage" thing is crazy. Surprised there hasn't been a class action lawsuit yet. It's not like all these major submitters aren't either on here, blowout, or CU.
COMC stopped submitting to BGS months ago.

Have been tracking and buying some modern cards recently and was surprised at the premium BGS gets vs. PSA. In some cases it's 2x for a BGS 10 vs. a PSA 10. And if you have a BGS black label (which is all 4 sub grades with a 10) it's even more. It's my impression that BGS has a huge market share advantage over PSA in modern cards. If BGS implodes that would be really bad for modern and really bad for the health of the hobby in general.

btw for you vintage guys, I learned this terminology recently...(many of you might already know this but thought I would share in case you were like me with your head in the sand on all things shiny)

BGS 9.5 are called "Gems" and BGS 10's are "Dimes"
BGS grades on 4 sub grades for Centering, Corners, Edges and Surface
A minimum Gem is 3 9.5 sub grades and 1 9 sub.
Cards with "9" centers are worth the least and many shun them.
BGS 9.5 with 9.5 for all sub grades is called "A Quad or True Gem" and get a premium
BGS 9.5 with all 9.5 sub grades and either 1 or 2 10 sub grades is called "true gem plus or monster subs"
As you can imagine subs matter in particular on low pop and rare cards

BGS 9.5 is the equivalent of PSA 10; BGS 10 and Black Label are very rare and essentially gimmicks IMO. PSA 10s as far as I can tell substantially outsell even quad 9.5s on cards like Trout rookies and probably everything else. Look it up.

On top of it all, this poor sap does all of this with only a single hand. I am starting to see why it takes so long. :D

There's mention of a "cleaner," which seems to be people sending cards to a person who uses microfiber and wax to clean cards before submitting (and also possibly gets paid something for the service?). Is that common? Seems a little strange to me, but I don't dabble in the high-end modern market.

Boy, the real pressure is actually on the Topps, Bowman, etc production line employees to put out perfect cards...or.....maybe not. Maybe they get a tiny bit sloppy with most of their products and only get “gem mint” with a limited number on purpose. Heck, maybe the quality control guy pockets a few of those for himself.

Rob M

Exactly; probably 1% of cards submitted get a BGS 10, so if that's the reason you're submitting to them, you're buying lottery tickets. Most people who submit can't even tell the difference between a "true gem" and a pristine card, and BGS doesn't publish their distinctions. If there are millions of 50/50 centered cards nowadays, why aren't there more BGS 10 centering subgrades?
PSA is half the price and outsells them on the 10/9.5 for the vast majority of items.

And yes, some people pay others to clean their shiny modern cards for them, mostly taking off dust and fingerprints, since those can lead to lower grades on chrome cards.

I have no clue. Sounds very possible. There seem to be a lot of tricks out there to boost a cards appearance.

Well, this likely explains the PSA backlog
 

This thread sheds some light on the PSA backlog........:eek:

If they are backed-up for a year, I think it begs the question “how accurate can this grader be when he is flying through cards?” A guy trying to asses the difference between a surface subgrade 9.5 or 10 can not possibly be effective under these conditions. More evidence that this grade-worship is such a joke. People are paying obscene premiums for cards that were given a cursory review by some overworked graders working 15 hours straight, drinking Red Bull and coffee in some dungeon at the Beckett headquarters.

Whole thing is hard to understand. They have so much business that they are backed up for a year and therefore are struggling? If it’s a real issue, raise prices a little which will increase margins on each item in exchange for the small portion of market share that will be lost. BGS pretty much lens the modern market anyways...

I would not give up my cards for a year. YOWZERS!! :eek::eek:

+1

Wow, a year is incredible. I actually do send items to Beckett since they encapsulate some things that PSA and SGC do not such as larger premiums (e.g., notepads). I don't know if I want to wait a year for them to come back. Hopefully the backlog will go down soon. And I was thinking that the TPG's would eventually run out of things to grade since everything worth grading (and that made sense to grade, eg. not a $1 card) had pretty much already been graded already.

I sent some modern cards to BGS last week before all of this went down. It was through their non guaranteed service. See you next summer guys!

What's an RCR?

Raw card review. Instead of slabbing the card they put it in a card saver with a sticker over it. It costs ~10.00. They can do it at shows or card shops and not have to carry their equipment all over the country.

Gotcha. Thanks...

I’ve often had the same thought. But the beauty of BecKett’s model is that they “specialize” in new cards, thus guaranteeing a steady flow in the future. They are totally screwing that up right now. I think that Beckett has the market on new cards for 2 reasons:
1.new cards are all in incredible shape, so guys get suckered in with that black label 10 crap.
2. Since new cards are in such great shape, their use of subgrades helps distinguish a grade by it’s sub grades. Ex: We both have a 9.5, but mine is better because it has two 10 subs. It’s absurd, but true.

Orlando you are absolutely correct. Nowhere is buy the flip more alive and well than in the new and shiny. Unbelievable with all the subgrades. But they started it and they have the market on it. And people care. And they care A LOT! And that keeps the machine going.

I still can't wrap my head around this... graders would actual detract for a bit of dust on a card? And collectors would pay for somebody else to remove it? Submitting to a grader carries risk, but that it offset by insurance (through USPS or the submission fee), but sending to a FOURTH party seems to incur even more risk without an offset.

Depending on how it works, the year wait could be beneficial - if somebody submitted an auto-refractor-thingy of Juan Soto (just an example, not even sure there was one last year) last November, they probably got in on a lower tier of the fees. Of course, they missed out on potentially cashing in during the mean time. And anybody who submitted cards of Robbie Cano or some others probably missed out on some decent money by not getting their slabs back quickly.

The whole thing is crazy. I would never ever send my cards away knowing I wouldn't get them back for a year, much less a few months.

I guess on the bright side, this is an indication the hobby is healthy and has a solid population keeping it going.

Grading is not an exact science. Both modern and vintage flippers/dealers play the game and realize they are doing so. I've seen beat the hell pre-war cards celebrated by submitters simply because it got in an Authentic holder. The numerical grade is irrelevant.

BGS's whole business model and market share is predicated on the "Pristine" and "Super Pristine" (black) grade. If you removed these attributes from their service, they would be out-of-business tomorrow. As someone pointed out, it's all just gambling for the "chance" at a 10 or 10 black. Realistically, it makes absolutely no sense to send anything to BGS that would achieve a 9 or lower at best. Their population reports are heavily tilted with mostly 9's, a share of 10s and some lower grades sprinkled in (mainly inexperienced folks or those with bad eyesight trying for 10s).

This may not hold true for older cards. But, BGS has little market share or business differentiation in that space. I'm not trying to rag on BGS, but that's their primary customer.

How this is acceptable customer service and yet people continue to send them stuff says just as much about the collector as it does BGS. Speak with your wallets. Ridiculous

I hear you Orlando, I thought the same way until I started buying new stuff. I actually really like the BGS sub grades as it adds depth and complexity to collecting that I think others like too. If you're a centering guy, you can look for BGS 9.5's or 10's with only centering 10 sub grades, or corners with only 10's etc. This has a tendency too to widen the pricing band within grade as you're only really considering 9, 9.5's, 10's and black. And as far as the black label cards, I'm sure you wouldn't be able to tell the difference between most black and a Pristine 10 with one 9.5 sub grade. But it's genius marketing as most brands offer that "premium" model that we've all fallen for. Gotta say those black labels look really damn cool too. :-)

With the back log isn't that just for the lowest cost, non guaranteed date grading service? Makes sense that people paying more for the faster service would get front of the line....

AJ, I actually like the idea of subgrades. I like knowing where the card was hit and where it did well. I wish sgc and psa did subs. What I think is crazy is the differences in prices due to the subs. But I think paying substantially for small differences in grades is nutty to begin with, new or vintage.

Attachment 327189

Hey, maybe they just need the time to be really accurate.

Why do people think Beckett has the new card market? Look at ebay, people, PSA is HUGE in modern. Beckett has been losing share of this market steadily to PSA. The money guys are all buying PSA 10s now, not Beckett.

I also firmly believe the modern market is what fomented the change at the top of the scale for SGC.

I don't think anyone said BGS has the new card market. Just that their market share is predominately the new card market

Sorry man this is not true. I'm dialed into quite a few big facebook groups for modern and the modern guys LOVE BGS over PSA. The collective thinking is that it's much harder to cross PSA 10's over to BGS 9.5's (or 10's) so the grading must be better and for modern the sub grades are crucial to help differentiate. I noticed this big time at the Natty where a good 75% of all modern cards I saw were BGS vs. PSA.

Obviously a search by 2018 PSA and 2018 BGS on EBAY isn't perfect but it produces an interesting result. A lot of key word spamming happens and more so with people from other grading companies using PSA so certainly not to be taken at 100% but clearly suggesting that with new cards PSA is very much in the hunt. Perhaps winning in submissions. It is obviously no secret with older cards PSA has a near monopoly on fresh cards being submitted so a huge difference in market share. A few months back I was reading about wait times with BGS and saw that as a potentially healthy sign for overall grading submissions but this is clearly a capital issue and really egregious to sit on customers money for a year and climbing. Not good.


https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_fro...8+psa&_sacat=0


https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_fro...8+bgs&_sacat=0

Go compare Trout rookies or anything else you want on ebay, then report back. PSA 10s sell at a substantial advantage to BGS 9.5s. I don't know the market for one off weird basketball inserts and the like so if you're talking about that or autographs, fine, you could be right, but on your basic superstar rookies and variations, PSA is winning from what I see.

PS from what I know guys buy 9.5s (quads mostly) to try to cross them to PSA 10s. Not the other way around.

I don't pretend to know where his cards go long term but for the moment Trout is as hot as any athlete can get. One thing is for sure he has to perform for a long time to sustain these levels!

I agree with that irrespective of the grading company involved. But for purposes of this thread, I am confident that on the major issues a PSA 10 is going to outsell a BGS 9.5 even a quad.

I am obviously a PSA supporter and I made a conscious decision early on that longer term there was no other choice.

Just looked on PWCC's pricing website at recent 2011 Trout Update PSA 10s and BGS 9.5s. Good barometer because there are lots of both. PSA outselling BGS by 20 percent or so across the board from a quick look. Disparity probably higher on the variations.

I would compare prices on BGS 10 to PSA 10, not sure BGS 9.5 to PSA 10 is an apples to apples comparison. In your Trout comparison BGS 10 VCP avg is $1457 vs. PSA 10 $572 (almost 3x). I was referring more to the overall total numbers of modern in BGS holders and the desirability. From everything I've seen BGS holds substantial leads in both. Which probably has something to do with the long wait times for their lowest tier service.

9.5 to 10 is apples to apples. Gem Mint to Gem Mint. No question. BGS 10 is to one side a very unusual grade, kinda like having one of those HE stickers. 10 to 10 is definitely NOT apples to apples. If PSA prices are higher then by definition that means PSA is more desirable so I really don't get your point. BGS probably has graded more because earlier and for a number of years it was the biggest player in the space so got off to a substantial lead. Not any longer. Just look at PWCC which is probably the biggest seller of this stuff.

PS I have some Beckett cards so I am not biased or a PSA fanboy. I think generally they do a good job on modern, even if the subgrades can be a little arbitrary and are frequently just off on Star basketball for reasons beyond me. But the money guys chasing the big Trout variations, the Jeters, etc. etc., are buying PSA.

2017 same search

PSA 24,240

BGS 14,909


2016 same search

PSA 15,845

BGS 12,632


2015 same search

PSA 12,567

BGS 11,500

2014 same search

PSA 14,119

BGS 12,940


I see a trend here.

Keep in mind, PSA 10 cards encompass 3 different BGS grades by definition. In many cases, it's difficult to discern the difference between a PSA 9 and 10. Somehow BGS has banked its grading success on finding enough subtle difference in Gem Mint, Pristine, and Super Pristine to artificially create scarcity. I wonder how many PSA 10s could qualify as Pristine or Super Pristine? Again, if BGS had only a gem mint 10 grade, they would be out of business.

https://img.comc.com/i/Baseball/2005...daee&size=zoom

If your card is graded by RCR, it's a little cheaper than full slabbing. If you get your card back at a show and immediately submit it for full grading (at the full grading price, so paying almost double...) you are nearly guaranteed to get the same grade. Once you take it away from the table, the grade is no longer guaranteed. So it's sort of useful, but not very useful.
And when you can get your cards graded by PSA in a bulk special for cheaper, it makes almost no sense.

BGS has found their niche in PSA's world. BGS10>PSA10>BGS9.5>PSA9>BGS9>etc. With their delays ~1 year for bulk and discontinuing 10 day service, they are losing market share to PSA. People were trying to slot their cards to maximize value. As Peter said crossing BGS 9.5 to PSA 10 or BGS 9 to PSA 9 to make money or trying for BGS 10s on pristine cards. Now it isn't worth the wait unless it is an expensive card and you do the 5 day service. Now just send it to PSA and move it when the time is right. By the time it comes back from BGS, the time to sell may have past.

On cheaper cards, people are not slabbing, just selling as is, so the buyer knows what the card is. On more expensive cards, slab 9.5 or 10 and just sell if 9 or less. Raw~BGS 9. RCR normally runs about half (or less in bulk) of slabbing. Now about a third since they cut the 10 day service. It is really the only way to grade unless you know you have a sure gem and it is worth paying $30 to grade.

I'm just floored that BGS thinks it is perfectly acceptable to cash your check and not perform a paid for service after one year. That just blows me away, and begs for some kind of class action lawsuit.

maybe the answer is, developing a set minimum card value for grading and eliminate grading reprints. I see too many collectors (often novice) submitting cards worth less than $1 in value.

Seems like a great way to destroy the market base of player and set collectors. :cool:

The other grading companies seem able to find the right balance between the revenues they are taking in and having enough employees to grade the cards in a reasonably timely fashion. Not sure why Beckett can't manage the same.

There are plenty of cards that raw might sell for less than a buck that graded in a 10 can increase exponentially.

The other issue is a lot of collectors just like to see the card in a graded slab and if they are willing to shell out the grading fee the companies should gladly take it.

Telling customers they can't submit doesn't seem like a good solution to anything. If you're at that point might as well shutter the place.

Agreed...but not performing a service for a year is TOTALLY unacceptable. I can think of nothing else that you pay for and wait a year to receive service.

Maintaining your seat at most major NASCAR or Indy car races for the upcoming year REQUIRES that you pay for your seat essentially as soon as this year's race ends... and you get NOTHING for it, besides a seat and a ticket...

The Speedway at Indianapolis can hold upwards of 500,000 fannies at at least $100 per fanny...

Just saying that I would like a piece of that interest...

It is not just that, but they are sending their graders out to card shows and card shops to do RCR every week while sitting on those bulk orders for 11 months. Proper business would be to take care of those orders in hand and paid for instead of taking on new business and letting them jump the line in front of bulk orders.

I think it’s ridiculous, too, although I can think of a number of examples of waiting for long periods (if not a year) with money locked in before something is done/happens. I have bought tickets for a concert 9 months away and put down a deposit for work on my house that was months out (with the deposit being many times more significant that what BGS would charge for grading). Hotel/camp/etc. reservations for events and dates that are in high demand routinely become available one year prior and people jump at the chance to take them as soon as they can.

If you provide something with a high demand, it seems people are more than willing to pay just to wait in line.


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There is a huge difference between buying sporting tickets knowing you have to pay in advance and knowing the season doesn't start for a year vs. sending in cards to be graded thinking they will take two months or so and instead are pushing a year with indications it may be another four to six months.

Absolutely horrific business practice.

This is a major red flag that there could be a serious cash flow issue with the company.

I think competition is good so hopefully they get this rectified.

I cannot agree more with the thoughts voiced on this thread.

A year is absurd: hire and train some more people, for crissakes. What BGS is doing is just crappy customer service.

I also agree that the grading lottery is way worse with BGS than with PSA because of the silliness of the subgrades. I submitted one card at the National in AC, and only because the PSA line was too long:

http://photos.imageevent.com/exhibit...Mayweather.jpg

The card is spectacular. The subgrades are nonsense. The same set yielded these:

http://photos.imageevent.com/exhibit...s%20Vargas.jpg

http://photos.imageevent.com/exhibit...ns%20Judah.jpg

The three are identical in terms of condition.

I am totally NOT defending BGS on this, but we are talking about the non-guaranteed service, so there is no promise (as I can tell) on the turnaround. It’s just people getting in the back of a line that now takes a year. The other levels of service (2, 5 and 20-day), I assume, take precedence and the non-guaranteed orders are done whenever they get around to it.

I still agree a year is ridiculous and I would NEVER get in that line (I won’t wait in a line for much these days), but people should know they are signing up for a service that has no promised delivery date.



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Beckett Sub-Grades
 

... I had always wondered about how BGS graders arrived at their final grade because it obviously wasn't just an "average" of the four subs ; many years ago , just before 9/11 as I recall , at the Fort Washington,PA show , someone at their table explained to me that the values of the subs were weighted , with corners and centering counting the most , and surfaces and edges less so ; and in answer to a specific question he also told me why the particular sub-grade for "corners" was almost always the lowest of the four subs : " Beckett graders consider a sportscard to have eight corners i.e. the 4 on the front and then the other 4 on the reverse"---- sooooo all that plus the high value put upon that particular sub-grade is perhaps why we just shake our heads when the cards come back and mutter unkind words about Beckett graders.----- I have seen a BGS final grade of more than .5 higher than the 'corners' grade perhaps twice ?? in twenty years , and they were very low end cards to start with. PSA's 'eye appeal' factor doesn't exist in Texas. And I remember they gave me a very nice Beckett Tee-shirt.

..

I thought the overall grade could not be more than .5 higher than the lowest sub but maybe I am wrong about that.

Peter that was my understanding too.

This is my understanding, too.

I have seen rare circumstances when it was 1 grade higher. For example if centering, corners and edges were really high, say 8-9 and surface was low, say 3, the card could be a 4.