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Proud of our Youth !
I am opening myself up for attack on this one, I am fully aware. However, today I am very proud of our youth and all who protested!
Today at the Nation's Capital and at cities across America were some of the biggest youth protests since the Vietnam era. These massive gun control rallies and protests hope to bring an end to the increasing gun violence and deaths so prevalent in today's world all across America. The NRA doesn't realize one critical point - back in George Washington's day they didn't have automatic assault rifles capable of mass destruction and mortality. Times change and we need to change our laws accordingly to help protect and serve our citizens. Now if the NRA wants to defend the rights to own a single shot rifle, no problem, I will march alongside the NRA. Steve |
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2nd There's literally 100,000s of forums you can post on |
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These kids are 17 and 18 years old, many who will be able to vote for the first time in November. We'll see where this all goes. Ideally, both sides of the gun debate can come to some understanding, but given the mood in America today, we'll probably see more shouting and less listening.
I see good points on both sides, and I'm happy to see young people getting so involved, whether you agree with them or not. |
You can ban all guns but it does not get to the root of the problem, why are they shooting up schools? Why blame our mental health laws or the media that glorifies all these mass shootings when guns are the easiest targets?
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As for the media, they are what they are. They just report the stuff though I agree it seems they glorify it by how much they cover it. But if it didn't happen they wouldn't cover it. :) It is going to be tough to make meaningful changes, imo. Even if they appear meaningful I have a feeling it might only slightly curb the issue. There are so many guns in our society (and elsewhere) I don't see the problem going away soon. And I am usually mostly an optimist. |
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I agree with Leon that there is no easy fix here. When I think of all the changes I would like to see made, I realize they may not do a damn thing to keep guns out of the hands of crazy people.
A dialogue between guns rights people and those who believe there should be fewer guns would be a good start. But that will never happen. |
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Some people collect guns, target shoot with guns, and hunt with guns. Banning guns is as stupid to them as banning baseball card collecting would be to most on this forum.
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I got 4 words for ya
"shall not be infringed" |
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Steve- Thank you for being willing to speak at a time when it's needed, but not popular. Clearly, regardless of where you stand on this issue, needed solutions cannot come about without healthy (that means polite, though spirited back and forth) discussion. The very fact that it is taking our children, even survivors, to get anything started in this area, speaks volumes about the mess our generation has forced upon them. I say this as a conservative with an open mind when it comes to the better good. Leon - I hope my post doesn't cause this very vital thread to be blocked. -Raymond |
As I said earlier, I don't know why this has to be political? Yeah, everyone seems to make it be that way but it doesn't have to be. We all want the same things it's just a matter of how we get there. There are good arguments on all sides. :) If this thread goes way south then it can be locked. Hopefully it can be discussed in a civil manner. thanks
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I too am proud of our young adults. They speak very well and want to change things. Whatever side you are on, what we have now is not working and change is needed.
But these young adults have their most powerful tool ahead of them. their vote. Some can vote now, just about all will have that in a few years. That is where we all have the power to elect those who we want to represent us and our views and if not, vote them out. Mike |
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so much wrong with this post, time to break it down: Quote:
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They aren't prevalent , not at all, of the 36k annual gun deaths in the USA 20k of those are suicide, and the majority of the remaining are the result of gang violence, only a tiny % are due to "mass shootings" gun control has been proven to show it won't do one tiny thing to that % either, as anyone determined to kill a lot of people is not going to be stopped by a gun law why isn't the media reporting this accurately? hmmmm? Quote:
B- fully automatic weapons are expensive to buy (grandfathered in relics that cost tens of thousands) and require a year's wait and more $$$ in tax stamps and fees. C- AR-15 is not high powered, nor fully automatic, nor a military weapon, nor an assault rifle, it's a moderate to low powered semi-automatic, varmint and home protection weapon. It looks scary because of it's cool tactical garb, but underneath the weapon itself is just a hunting rifle with a magazine D- did the founding fathers plan for the computer and mass media ? so does your first amendment rights to freedom of speech end with the quill and ink? that's a fallacious and silly argument, (and btw, they knew of gatlin gun type weapons and the early attempts at semi-auto) Quote:
You need to learn about guns before you make one more statement about them as you come off as woefully ignorant of the issue and are making naive and embarrassing cliche'd arguments. |
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I agree that some have given up their right and other just shouldn't own. But.the definition of mentally unstable is where we could have big issues. |
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So, I'm going to listen to little snowflakes, who think eating Tide Pods is fun, telling me that my guns need to be taken away from me???? What a bunch of BS. They're blatantly being used by a certain side of the aisle as political pawns, and it's laughable.
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Criminals who do illegal things would love for more types of guns to get banned and out of the law abiding owners...more unarmed people to go after who follow the law
bump stocks i can see being banned but without a constitutional amendment, all of this protesting will only amount to some very narrow law for the political 'victory' and on to the next thing |
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What’s frustrating about debating are arguments that A. Make such broad generalizations and B. Are done mainly to denigrate the opposite view. If you do want to have honest debate, a little respect helps. And please, if somebody on the other side is misinformed, HELPING them works a lot better than aggressive condescension. I have a great deal of respect for Leon allowing this discussion to take place, because while people here may come from all over the political landscape, we share a common interest. I had hoped that would foster constructive discussion, but that is not the case in many responses. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk |
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I have tried so many times and been ignored so many times that at this point I have concluded it's 100% willful. The opposition simply doesn't care about the facts, they are only interested in the abolition of the 2nd amendment. ETA: and for the record, I never attacked the man, but rather, his argument. |
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Sounds to be like both sides are equally culpable. |
I find it surprising that some people could think of protests as not adding up to much. Women were granted the right to vote, we passed the Civil Rights Act and desegregated our schools and public spaces because of protests. We pulled out of the Vietnam War due in large part to the pressure of public opinion as well. They are extremely powerful statements and the solidarity needed to pull them off is what brings people together for change.
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I think that's what makes a lot of gun owners nervous. When the left isn't specific about what they want, then how is the right supposed to interpret that, other than a total gun ban? Again, if that's not what they want, then tell us what they do want. Be specific. |
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David- that's a very fair question and you know what? I don't have an answer. You are correct that the gun control people can be vague.
But you know what I would like? To have a reasonable discussion with gun rights people like yourself- and I know you know a whole lot more about guns than I do- and not have insults thrown at me. Calling me a snowflake won't get the job done. All either side wants is for the other side to listen. |
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To me, it would be just about as effective as a so-called background check. |
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I can think of several law enforcement applications. One is simple in that if I shoot you in Texas with my gun that I bought in Illinois, local law enforcement is going to be severely handicapped in solving the crime. Even if I left the gun at the scene, they'd have no way to trace it back to me unless they knew where I purchased it, and even then the state I purchased the gun in may protect me even further. It is unlawful to have any type of database in some states. |
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death by 1000 cuts against our inalienable rights is abolition over time. "SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED" and anyone who says "assault weapons" in regards to the AR-15 is either ignorant to the reality of firearms, or purposely lying to garner sympathy. pick one. I do not own a single firearm, but i am a veteran and i joined to protect and defend the constitution from enemies foreign and domestic, I believe this duty continues to this day. If you try to take away my rights, I will fight you with my entire being |
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There are 37 states where you can privately purchase a gun without any form of registration or back ground check at all. Those 37 states should, in my opinion, compel people who purchase a firearm to alert some type of regulatory agency to the fact that they've purchased a gun. |
Specifics?
Okay. Let's have some! PLEASE!!! Everyone who has a suggestion, speak up? The question is this: WHAT actions will work, in your opinion, to decrease the growing number of mass shootings? Take any stance you want, just say something that YOU think will work! I will start us off by believing that thorough background checks could eliminate folks with mental issues from being eligible to own a firearm of any kind. Their absolute right to bare arms should be usurped by the need to keep others safe from attacks like the kinds we have been experiencing. To paraphrase what I have stated in my post signature, ALL of our rights as Americans come with an understood equal hand of responsibility and accountability. Those are words I have lived by all my live and I find it difficult for imagine anyone could make a valid argument against them. . |
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Now that's easier said than done. Certainly strict background checks would help. Changing the age of gun ownership from 18 to 21, on the other hand, is pretty dumb and doesn't accomplish much of anything. And I've long been for a ban against owning assault weapons, but I realize that the bad guys will still own them so that won't work either. The thing that gets me the angriest is that gun owners are so sure they've got it right that they tune out anyone who even hints at making small changes. Nobody can say for sure that some changes in the laws will make us safer, but I bet a whole lot of Americans would at least be willing to try. Maybe at the end of the day nothing can be done to stop a crazed shooter from lighting up a school or church, but I hate to think we've given up trying. The survivors of Parkland HS are at the forefront of a new movement, energizing young people across the country to take a stand and to register to vote as soon as they turn 18. And what does the NRA do? Vilify them and call them a group of radicals. Now that really pisses me off. |
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what right does govt have to keep tabs on LAW ABIDING GUN OWNERS? none what right do you have to have a list to keep tabs on you neighbors? I believe you have no inalienable right to own a car, do you? you do to protect yourself. not to mention that background checks, do nothing to stop crime, gun bans do nothing to stop crime burden of proof lies on the gun grabbers, btw, I have the bill of rights and the 2nd amendment on my side. |
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maybe actually following through when agencies get reports of strange and dangerous behavior ? maybe securing schools and eliminating "gun free zones?" why is a courthouse and other govt buildings riddled with armed security (and our politicians) but not schools? why not deal with the problems instead of trying to take away the rights of citizens. you may not believe that this is the goal, but it's obvious to any defender of our constitution that abolition is the long term goal of those who oppose the 2nd amendment. ETA: once again you use the word "assault weapon" please define what it is, in detail ETTA: why is it surprising that I don't own guns yet defend the rights of my fellow americans? are you only interested in the bill of rights when it applies to you? |
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Times have changed Schools security should be treated like at airports, prisons, and court houses. But how many Teens died because of texting while driving, alcohol and illegal drugs
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Last year I had a police officer almost hit me head on because he was playing on his phone. When we passed each other over half his car was in my lane. On the school gun thing. Now we have a police officer at each school. When I was in HS about 20% of the vehicles(all unlocked) had guns in them and there was never a problem. I live in a rural area so many of us hunted on the way to and from school. |
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Ben- I couldn't agree with you more about the texting while driving. But, it's not just texting...it's distracted drivers...I cannot seem to get my brother to stop calling me on his 'hands-free' phone on the way home from work...in Atlanta mind you. He doesn't seem to grasp the idea that 'hands-free' does not solve the problem. I'm glad to hear your HS never had a problem when you were there...I graduated 44 years ago...and we had fights and racial incidents, but no incidents involving firearms. Some people were injured, but nobody was killed. But, let's focus on today's world...things are different...people are different. Let me hear an idea from you, Ben...on reducing campus shootings. I promise not to criticize your opinion...it's just important to get all opinions out there (here) so they can be discussed in a civilized manner...at least, that is my hope. -Raymond |
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http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2018...-repealed.html |
David- you can always find one person to say anything. The second amendment will not be repealed.
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That is not the way the vast majority of liberals (95+%?) feel, from what I have seen. But it is the way many conservatives keep trying to provide a false narrative of the other side. They lump all opposing their view into an ALL or Nothing category and it's simply not that way. Almost all liberals, and conservatives too actually, want guns but they want gun reform. I am on that side. It's really all that can be done to try to lessen the amount of these catastrophes we have. Kudo's to the kiddo's for speaking up. That said they might give some ideas on what to do, while they are at it. I have seen very few saying exactly what would be better except for the background checks and outlawing a few weapons. . |
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Nothing more has to be said. Mike |
Well Leon, I'm a liberal and I fully support the right of responsible Americans to own guns. I have absolutely no issue with it.
But it angers me to no end that the Parkland shooter (I can't even remember his name) can walk into a gun store and buy an AR-15 the same way I can buy a quart of milk. Why isn't there a system in place that can prevent an unhinged lunatic from so easily buying one? |
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Would it give you a nice warm, fuzzy feeling inside if it came from MSNBC? http://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-s...ndments-repeal |
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Hyperbole, because he couldn't and didn't. Although there could be a more effective process. |
As far as discussing solutions, two of the biggest deterrents would be not declaring schools as gun-free zones and not providing 24/7 coverage to these events.
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Some of the biggest obstacles I've noticed in the debate between sides is this POV from the gun rights advocates that if you use a term they don't agree with or think is technically wrong in some minute aspect re: firearms there is this tendency to then dismiss anything else that is said.
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Some of the biggest obstacles I've noticed in the debate between sides is this POV from the gun control advocates that if you use Fox News as a source of information there is this tendency to then dismiss anything else that is said.
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"One of the Columbine shooters used 10-round magazines, and the Virginia Tech shooter used mostly 10-round magazines. The shooter from the recent Florida school shooting, although he had an AR-15-style rifle, used 10-round magazines to commit the crime. And Maryland, where the most recent school shooting occurred, already has laws banning the purchase of “high-capacity” magazines." - http://thefederalist.com/2018/03/21/...trol-debunked/ Many other weapons have this capacity (or more) including handguns. If your real reason for wanted these types of weapons banned (or restricted) is something other than capacity, then please correct me. Hopefully with the above you can understand it's not just semantics. |
People talk about semi-automatic rifles because that type of weapon is most commonly used to carry out large scale mass shootings. You rarely see one of these individuals choose to carry out a shooting with a handgun or shotgun or .22 caliber rifle. But when someone calls the weapon an "Assault Rifle" the conversation devolves into what is what rather than discussing the propensity for a certain type of weapon to be used in carrying out these shootings.
We outlawed automatic weapons in the 30s because they posed a danger to society and law enforcement. Why was that acceptable but a ban on semi-automatic rifles is met with such opposition? I'd love to hear a gun advocate answer that question. |
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If I wanted to shoot up a place, my weapon of choice would be my Glock. It has the same magazine capacity as an AR-I5, the clips are lighter and less bulky and the weapon itself is lighter and less bulky. I can fire off just as many rounds, drop the clip, reload it and continue firing just as quickly as someone with an AR-15. The AR-15 is the weapon of choice for the sick-minded individuals simply because of its cosmetics - it looks scary and it makes the sickos feel empowered. Its nothing more than a handgun with a longer barrel. |
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So you want to ban handguns and hunting rifles? |
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That's not totally true though. In some states handguns are met with stricter restrictions than rifles. In Colorado for example, you need to have a concealed carry permit to carry a handgun but you don't need one for a long gun. You could conceal your rifle lawfully but not your glock. |
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The conversation likely devolves because "people" are reacting more with 'feelz' rather than facts and logic. I'm not imply you are, and I appreciate the discussion. And I'm not proposing the silly argument that handguns kill more people so mass shootings aren't 'important' (bad choice of words, but at times seems suggestive on the gun rights side). Both are a problem, but the solution isn't further restriction. |
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A question for David, Taylor, and pretty much anyone else, and I ask this without any cynicism at all:
What do you want to see done to make America safer from these terrible assaults? Do you suggest any changes at all with any gun laws, or do you think the status quo is just fine? You guys know a whole lot more than I do, so I take your words seriously. Again, this is a sincere question. Your encyclopedic knowledge on guns is duly respected. The floor is yours. |
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Part of the problem, as I see it, is that the tools are in place to try and prevent the whackos from getting the guns, but the information isn't being disseminated. Look at the church shooter in San Antonio. He received a dishonorable discharge from the military, but the military failed to report that. That should have kept him from purchasing the weapon. And look at the Florida shooter. The cops were called to his house thirty-something times. He was reported to the FBI more than once. But, once again, the information wasn't disseminated. |
I certainly agree that better information would be one way to make things safer. And I didn't dodge your question, but like you said I didn't have an answer. I'm smart enough to know that you know a whole lot more about gun culture than I do. I didn't grow up in that environment, never owned a gun, and never knew anyone who had one where I lived. So it's silly for me to pretend I have all the answers. I don't. I would rather listen than preach.
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https://www.cnn.com/2018/03/27/polit...ent/index.html |
We do in fact have background checks, and have for a few years.
Without the "semantics" I can only assume the 37 states mentioned don't require then for intrastate transfers. Interstate transfers have to go through a federally licensed dealer, and that dealer has to file the proper forms and get the background check done. https://www.fbi.gov/services/cjis/nics/about-nics https://www.fbi.gov/services/cjis/nics |
HEY!!!!! Let's stop all this garbage and go back to the original request: What idea do you support that could reduce the number of mass shootings? GETTING SUGGESTIONS AND SHARING REAL IDEAS IS THE SOLE PURPOSE FOR THE ABOVE-MENTIONED REQUEST. Please stop all this other @#$%& and try to contribute possible life-saving ideas! So far, this is a microcosm of why nothing this important gets changed! . |
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I question all those asking for changes in gun laws to show me were this has worked. Gun laws and access to guns including semi and fully automatic weapons are more restrictive now than in the 40s-60s, yet there are more mass shootings now. The AR-15 was introduced in the mid '50s (I believe), yet has only recently become the 'weapon de jour'. The problem I have with ANY laws is they are useless if not or capriciously enforced. |
In the two most recent examples of a shooting taking place at a school where armed security officers were present, their presence did not stop the shooting. We all know about the officer in Florida, but the shooting in Maryland occurred at a school with an armed security officer too. That shooter had a single objective: kill a student he had a relationship with. He succeeded and then shot himself while the armed officer was on the premises.
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So, what's your idea to reduce mass shootings? |
Taylor- if you want schools not to be gun free zones, who do you see as having the guns? The teachers? The students? I just don't know how that could possibly work.
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Form a national registry of firearms, which I think will promote more accountability from owners. It would also help law enforcement to monitor stockpiling of weapons, report stolen weapons, and connect weapons to crimes outside of local jurisdiction, which could prevent an attack, perhaps.
Require anyone buying ammo to present a current license to own a firearm. That way a person can't purchase ammo for an illegal firearm, or a firearm that belongs to someone else that they may have access to. Close all loopholes that enable someone to purchase a weapon without a waiting period or background check or official registration. You can make private purchases of firearms in many states and at gun shows without any type of oversight, especially in states that don't require a license at all. Make rifle and handgun legislation mirror each other. That way if it's illegal in your state to carry a concealed handgun, it would be similarly illegal to conceal a long gun. These are just some of my own ideas. |
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The authorities were quick to praise the school resource officer at Great Mills High, Deputy Blaine Gaskill, who they said responded almost immediately to the gunman and fired his weapon. Deputy Gaskill was unharmed in the exchange. “He pursued the shooter, engaged the shooter,” Sheriff Timothy K. Cameron of St. Mary’s County said. The officer, he said, then “fired a round at the shooter; simultaneously the shooter fired a round as well.” That would lead me to believe that he fired at the SRO as well. He probably didn't mean to though, right? |
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