Ty Cobb Card Market?
 

What are everybody's thoughts on how hot the Ty Cobb card market is? Is this something that will continue for long term? Is it about to end? Is there going to be a correction in the prices? What are everybody's thoughts?

I've been able to buy some of Cobb's offbeat cards for, what I thought, were very reasonable prices. I picked up a E253 and a T202. Not sure about the stratospheric early postcards.

The T206s will definitely be getting a correction. $14,400 for a PSA 3 Green portrait is ridiculous!

I think the tough Ty Cobb postcards will keep increasing in demand/price. Lot of people want them, so few out there.

There are just so many - I tend to agree. But people who pay these prices are unlikely to be auctioning them off any time soon I would guess.

The price was crazy but that was the nicest 3 I've ever seen!

+1

$14k+ is definitely way healthy for a 3 (anyone wanna buy my 6 for $35k?), but it does continue a trend I have been noticing - buying the card instead of the grade. A gorgeous 51 bowman mantle SGC 4 went for a ton last night, but it looks nicer than many 6's I have seen. And look what the yellow Ruth goudey 6 went for - very high for a 6 but great looking card

I was bidding on that 51B Mantle specifically because of the great centering and eye appeal, but it went much higher than I was hoping. Look how it went for more than double the price of the PSA 4 Mantle, which was blurry and O/C. It's good to see that collectors are at times looking past the label and actually recognizing that some cards look a whole lot better than others of the same grade.

Agree! It seems that perhaps collectors are maturing a bit in that regard...paying top prices for nice cards in mid grade regardless of the # or Grader on the flip.

If the stock market, especially tech stumbles, watch as people puke up cards left and right. Not saying this will happen.

I was bidding on it too. I was hoping for around 10K...... not so much!!

What sale was this green Cobb at $14,400? I would like to see how good it really is.

Wow. Seems like a high premium for perfect centering. Nice result!

I was thinking around 10K too, but living in NY I also have to figure sales tax into the equation. So I am at around a one increment disadvantage to bidders in tax free states.:(

And that T206 green Cobb looks like it should have been graded a 5. Why do so many cards appear to be over or under graded? I just don't get it. Those two VG-Ex 51B Mantles didn't look anything like each other, they were night and day, yet both received the same grade. It makes no sense.

Perhaps they were buying the card and not the flip??

I agree, but still, these T206 Cobbs (especially the green portrait) are rising much faster than any other player in the set and there are lots of them out there. At some point, the inflation will stop and prices will correct.

Hope green cobbs go down before the national

Green Cobb
 

The Green Cobb 3 went a little higher than I expected, (so much so that I feared there might be some comments on the board.) But it was a "white whale" for me, and it will be a centerpiece of my collection for many years. (I'm not a dealer, flipper, or investor.) I love the Tigers, Ty Cobb, and I value color and centering more than any other aspects of a card. I used to be a "minimum grade" guy, but the many examples of beautiful cards with lower grades shown on this board really changed my thinking to "buying the card." Will I get a strong financial return? Who knows what will happen in 20-30 years. But I will enjoy it immensely over that time.

Congrats on a nice pickup!

Congrats Sam. It's a beautiful card. I have over-paid on many occasional as well. But as long as you're happy, that's all that matters. You will enjoy that card every time you look at it.

Latest Beckett Vintage Collector certainly thinks this is a very strong market for T206 Cobb cards. Ty is the cover boy.

That '3' is definitely the best '3' I've seen...though I usually don't watch that grade very much (as if I can afford my usual '5' - NOT)


I have to wonder if all the new attention to Cobb may also be tied (to some degree) to the new, more flattering Cobb books that have come out.




.

beautiful card Sam...and congrats! I hope it is as stunning in hand as it appears to be in scan!!!!

Hey Sam, nice going. That is a really strong three. But the important thing is that you'll be owning it for 20+ years. I've always heard that when it comes to high end cards, you can never pay too much, you can only pay too soon.

In your case that Cobb may or may not be worth that much right now, but it will certainly be worth much more by the time that you're ready to sell. :)

Thanks for the kind words, guys. And Pete, I share your hope. I've found Heritage scans to be a bit "generous" in the past. Truly hoping that's not the case here.

The secret is out on postcards. The minuscule population makes them center pieces for many collections. Here is a little gallery I did awhile ago testing another board members knowledge on them. Any Cobb collector should gladly over pay on any of these in the collage, as I know I would!

Second collage of rare Cobb Postcards

Ridiculous? Should he have bought a Cody Belanger 1/1 refractor with that money? Just curious, if that gorgeous green t206 isn't worth 14k to you, then what card is? If he paid that for an ugly 5, you would praise what a great deal he got. Way to buy a nice CARD Sam. I mean, that's what we collect right???

As for Cobb's resurgence, I think there are several reasons. He is an iconic figure who, along with Ruth, is the face of pre-war baseball cards. Ruth's first card was in 1916, just after the beautiful, colorful T, D, and E cards. Ruth just missed the boat on the last beautiful set of that era, the CJs. Most of Ruth's cards are small black and white caramel cards, redemption coupons, and strip cards. It wasn't until the end of his career that the iconic Goudeys came out. I am not bashing Ruth at all, but Ruth doesn't have cards as beautiful as Cobb (t206, t217, t3, e95, d304, etc). Finally, guys have been dropping big bucks on highgrade Clemente, Rose, Mays, etc, so why shouldn't Cobb's cards go up in value? There are many hall of famers, but very few guys who are larger than life mythological figures. Cobb is one of those guys.

3 of those are not postcards, can you id them?

Hi Barry,

Always nice to see you posting. Welcome back. While I agree with you about the inherent flaws in grading and lack of consistency, there is more that can be seen with a card in hand than can be seen even in a massive Heritage scan. It has been my consistent experience that when you see a pic of a card that appears 2 or 3 graders lower than assessed there is a justifiable reason.

Greg

The 2 Azoras (schedules) and Pinkerton (different backs).

Greg, graders often have their reasons. And those reasons are often legitimate. But don't tell me a hidden crease should count the same as an obvious crease. It does, but it's stupid. So they can grade it the same all they want, but it doesn't make sense. And it certainly doesn't have to enslave collectors into buying cards based on other people's assessments. I will take Sam's 3 over SEVERAL 5's because my cards are meant to please my eyes, not to show off some arbitrary grade.

Well done, well done. Your Cobb postcard knowledge has officially surpassed JC's.

Jay, is the photo that was used for a couple of those postcards also the photo that was used for the T206 Cobb bat-off-the shoulder card?

Lol, thanks. He owns all 3, so I am pretty sure he is aware. And he actually taught me.

If that card is as nice in hand as the scan shows, then it's definitely worth a premium. I'm just saying that this exact same card a few years ago probably wouldn't have even hit 5k. It's the sudden and extreme inflation on the green Cobb that I'm trying to point out.

As a side note, I've never spent even 1k on a card, let alone 14k. As a collector, I value depth in a collection vs just a few standout cards, but that's just me. Most of my tobacco era stuff is VG and under, and I enjoy all of it immensely, even if it doesn't have perfect centering and color. I'd much rather have 14 different Cobb issues (that still present well) worth 1k each than this one amazing green Cobb.

Would love to see a picture of the 3 Cobb that sold yesterday in regular lighting and at an angle.

Supply v/s demand
 

Supply V/S demand

Its interesting the green background prices v/s the supply?

(PSA Pop)--all grades---Green 759--Bat/On 800----Bat/off 931--Red 1830--Total 4,320 cards (40 percent of the graded four are the red variety )


The PSA Pop between the Green v/s Bat/On is = 41 cards graded but a usually a very noticeable difference in prices in any grade--demand?


The PSA Pop report between the Bat/on v/s Red = 1,030 more Red background cards--prices don't reflect supply--demand?


Note: seems some disparity in higher prices with the red background with 899 more graded cards than the Bat/off variety.--demand?


Then add the equation for the back variations and grade scale ?-this becomes even more complicated


With Grading being all over the place within the same grade scale 3's with creases then others same 3 grade and no crease, I agree with eye appeal--I was looking at a PSA 3 Cobb on auction, contacted the seller, and was advised there was a light crease, wasn't noticeable by the posted picture, the bids just kept on going up.


The question, will T206 Cobbs see any price correction boils down to the long time business equation **Supply/Demand** come on--these Antique cards are over 100 years of age, being wonderful in any grade !!!--are graded 1950-60's over priced--let the buyers decide!


I bought a couple T206 Cobbs a few weeks ago and was advised I paid too much--I said who cares they aren't for sale, I liked them--I determined the value for me, not for them!---

Sam, great Green Cobb and congrats on the pickup. I had that on my watch list.

Jeff, I should say Postcard size cards.

Orlando, way to answer Jeff's trivia, and wonder if most would know which ones you named.

Huh? A crease is a crease for purposes of assessing a card's grade or the impact the existence of a crease has on the eventual grade. A little bit pregnant is still pregnant, no? To think otherwise is deluding oneself, at a minimum. The market has always been incredibly efficient in putting a value on a high grade example over a low grade example and that green Cobb is a perfect example.

I was not making an argument that the green Cobb should sell for what a lower grade example would sell for. Only trying to point out that in spite of great eye appeal, the technical flaws in a card, that we either can or cannot see in a scan (or in person) will impact the grade. Sometimes they are not immediately obvious.

Some pregnant women have better eye appeal than others.

Sure, if you are buying without regard to resale value. But most of us have at least one eye on resale value and grades do matter.

No. Other people have eyes too. I don't think Sam bid it up to 14k by himself.

If you are of the school that "a crease is a crease" regardless of visibility or location, or that "paper loss is paper loss" regardless of size or location on a card, then I guess you are right. I also think that sort of rigid mentality lacks any nuance or thought. But I bet it's a lot more fun buying cards when you don't care about pesky things like creases on a face as long as it has the grade you desire. It is, after all, the same as a hidden crease right?

In my opinion it's a higher than usual risk proposition to pay a huge premium over the grade for eye appeal, on a card that's relatively easy to find. I guess we just disagree. In any event, Sam is happy, so it's really more a debate about philosophy than this specific card.

From the collages that JC posted, I think only the novelty cutlery and PC796 (same central images) COULD be the same image used in the t206 bat-off. It is certainly the same image used in his CJ. The hand placement on the bat is similar, but I don't know if the artist on the t206 bat-off went off this image or not. He obviously didn't do a great job since doesn't look much like Cobb as it is! They did a poor job on the bat-on as well. Looks nothing like Cobb when you compare it to the much more accurate depiction of that pose on the T3. Maybe someone on here will know.

Congratulations Sam. That is by far the best "3" Cobb I've seen. Great card!

Thank you Paul. I really appreciate that.

Sam, it's a beautiful card. Enjoy and who cares the price - it's yours and it's great!

Yup. Even if the masses cool-off on green Cobb's, there will always be a huge demand for GORGEOUS green Cobbs.

As for the green Cobb being "readily available," I can tell you that 52 mantles are readily available, and they do pretty well regardless of condition. Guys overpay big time for well centered copies of lesser grades. T205 Cobbs are "readily available," but I can't find one that meets my parameters (which has more to do with eye appeal, than grade). I've seen a bunch of mid-grade t205s that don't do it for me. A type of card can be readily available, but a special example is not.

Wow I think ya might want to have someone read my posts to you and try to explain them to you. Both of my posts are referring to technical aspects of assessing a card's grade and the school of thought that is applied by the graders when doing so, which seems to have gone way over your head.

Overpay is the key word. I would guess that people who bought during the height of the mania will have a hard time getting back what they paid for some of those lesser grades.

Well thanks for your contribution. You could have saved some time and just posted psa's grading standards. If you are going to just parrot them, then you really contribute nothing to this conversation. A crease is a crease of course of course. Perhaps you can step out of that box where you live, and maybe do a bit of critical thinking. Maybe you can question why all creases should be treated the same, rather than just blindly accepting it. Perhaps, you can ask yourself why an ugly 5 is more valuable than a gorgeous 3. If the populations are about the same, there is nothing inherently more valuable about that 5. It's just a numeric grade which tells us the microscopic condition of cardboard. Nothing more. Grades provide WONDERFUL guidelines for us, but should not be the end all be all. That is enough critical thinking for you for today. You may go back into your box now.

What are you proposing Orlando? A grading scale based entirely on subjective eye appeal? If not, then any scale with "objective" standards is necessarily going to have some outliers where the card looks better than the technical grade, but so what?

Boy someone is very defensive:D. My initial post was to Barry but you decided to reply to me and in so doing completely twist my post due to some hang up of yours. Nice job! I get that you dig centered 1s with great eye appeal. Unlike all of your self-serving posts, none of mine were stating what my opinion or beliefs are about the eye appeal of cards or their value in the hobby. I am typing this slowly hoping that it sinks in. Must have been a rough week for you in court.

No peter, that would be madness, and inevitably lead to anarchy. I am proposing that we use the grades as guidelines, but not get so hung up on them when applying value. And I propose that a crease on the face be treated more harshly than an innocuous invisible crease. Same with paper loss.

This seems a straw man point. Nobody uses grades as the sole determinant of value, or suggested that. Certainly Greg did not, as I read it.

Self serving? I don't sell cards, and my only 1 is a pop 5 Cobb. And I "dig" all nice looking cards regardless of grade. I choose not to be a slave to societal norms and question things that don't make sense. Like how typing slowly can somehow express your position more clearly.

Or it is maybe THE PREMISE OF THIS ENTIRE THREAD.

Look at the whole picture
 

The market recognized that not all 3's are the same. The market took into account all facets of the card - the great centering, color, focus...and a minor technical flaw that makes the flip read "3". All things considered, the market priced the card high and possibly very correct when compared to an average "3".

I don't think so. Nobody said only the grade matters. But it matters some. It would be as foolish to think the grade is irrelevant, as to think it's the sole determinant. It's some combination of both in most cases except where it's a truly commodity card in which case the flip rules.

Hi Greg,
Thanks for your comments and I don't want to get in the middle of an argument here, but my feeling is grading is subjective and that there really aren't that many objective standards in the grading process. That's why I hate the numeric grades cards receive because it's pretending that there really is an objective and precise standard. That's why the same card can be resubmitted several times and get a different grade each time.

I think eye appeal is very important and should be part of the grading process. If a card is ugly for the grade, good chance it's overgraded. If it's "the best 3 I've ever seen", maybe it is in fact better than a 3. I'm just not a big fan of third party grading in its current form, and think it could be done a whole lot better. Not saying I have the answer to how it should be done, I'm just not a fan.

What does it take to become a grader at either SGC or PSA? I think I've read on a previous thread that PSA graders are allowed like 15 seconds to look at a card, to determine the grade. Maybe that applies in what kind of service the customer paid for or value of the card?

Grading changed the hobby, which has allowed for subjective opinions to be traded like commodities.

I would have loved to see a grading company back in the early 2000s, just grade the card saying it's either fake, altered, or genuine and un tampered with. In other words KIS (Keep It Simple).

Beautiful!
 

Sam,
Congratulations on landing a beautiful Cobb! I've always thought that whether you can easily afford a card like this, or you have scratched and scraped to earn extra spending money for a long time to purchase a card like this; as long as you are happy with it, then its a good buy no matter what happens in the market place.:D
Happy Collecting Everyone!
Tim Kindler

I bought a heavily creased red background T206 Ty Cobb back in 2002 or there abouts for $350 off Ebay and sold it a year later for $325. I didnt really buy many cards or really keep up with the hobby for a few years. During that time, I regretted selling the card and decided a couple years ago to buy another. I was surprised when I started looking around how much the prices had gone up. I found one a couple months ago with a small chuck missing and a little paper loss on the back for $400 which I bought. I actually like it better than my first Cobb. Could I have gotten one similar cheaper? In other words, did I over pay? I have no idea, and I don't care. I am really happy with it. That's is what is most important to me.

I think SOME people do, cuz we've seen examples of the SAME card magically reholdered in a slab with a higher grade and it sells at an AH for many multiples of the original sale price. The registry sometimes drives blind love for the grade on the flip regardless of what is inside the plastic.

That is a beautiful card. If I had the disposable income, I would have happily paid that much for that particular Cobb. Congrats! I'm envious.

+1. Congrats on the very pretty Cobb, Sam. Part of a great collection you have. We buy our cards for our enjoyment with our own money, not so some stranger on the internet can tell us if they think we made a wise investment, or not.

+2

Congrats Sam on the awesome pickup!!! The card is amaaaaaaazzzzzzzing!!!!

I overpay occasionally but my time, the right card and paying using interest free terms or cash is my rationale.

I am not implying any here does this, but I know it happens. A guy argues and negotiates or spends countless hours to try and find his bargain. Then plunks down his MasterCard and pays 10-20% interest making minimum payments. That mentality makes buyers premium sound cheap as well as the countless hours of TIME scouring for that specimen priced slightly below what someone else paid. I could not care what someone else pays or paid for an item. My buying decision is solely based upon its value to me. If I make a few bucks down the road, great. But that is not my driver for my buying decision.

I made a living selling cards all through the 80's, not interested in doing that again. Was a great experience but my return to collecting 3 or 4 years ago was to seek things I like. Nothing more. Nothing less. My collection has morphed a little in the past 90 days or so and instead of chasing a smorgasbord of everything, I have mostly pursued 19th century boxing, baseball and non sport. I sold most of the 50's and 60's baseball I had amassed over the last few years to help finance it. Got a financial ass licking on a couple things. Made a few bucks on some others. When it's all said and done probably a net sum zero. Anyway, that's my .02

Absolutely beautiful card, and a great example of buying the card and not the holder. Great purchase, Sam! Collectors and the market are indeed maturing!

May your collecting persevere in the face of adversity and bring you happiness,

Larry

+1.

Best wishes,

Larry

You got that right, Jay. The 1907 Dietsche Fielding Pose Cobb and the 1907 Wolverine News Cobb Portrait are centerpieces of my collection.

Highest regards,

Larry

You know I'm right there with you on that, Orly. Cobb will always be one of the game's greatest icons!

Highest regards always,

Larry

+10,000 on that too!

Best wishes,

Larry

Grades do matter, but we had this discussion years ago on a thread I started: eye appeal can and often does trump technical grade, unless the "collector" is really buying plastic slabs with a certain flip inside.

Best wishes, Pete,

Larry

+1 on the '52 Mantles, although I think "readily available" is an enormous understatement. It appears that there is an endless stream of them. And take note as to the large number appearing in the newer PSA holders--lots of ungraded specimens in old-time collections finding their way to market when the prices are just too good to be true for lower grade copies??? In the '90's, one author estimated that 15,000 examples existed--he may well have been off by a factor of 2 or three!

But may your collecting always bring you joy,

Larry

What did the Dietsche Cobb Fielding and Cobb Batting end up at in the Heritage Auction? I find the website difficult to navigate.

I am glad I picked up my Cobb Fielding a few years ago from Jeff Lichtman when he upgraded his copy.