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What the hell is the deal with this PWCC auction
Look at the bidding history. And in particular retractions.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/142398384790...p2471758.m4703 http://www.ebay.com/bfl/viewbids/142...p2047675.l2565 |
High bidder has 14 retractions. Ahem.
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Peter I have no idea what you are referring to, looks like a normal PWCC auction to me.;)
Also are you forgetting they have super fast shipping. |
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All retractions however crazy are 100% legit and rational.
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Forget the retractions, why would anyone pay $22,000 for a 1965 Frank Robinson card? This is insanity.
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Keep doing what you are doing Brent. I think the hobby supports you. |
It looks like 1..3 had a high bid in, then 4..A bid and found out the number was high but got outbid.
Then again to match, they retracted the bid that was bid up. Then 4..A attempted again at 50k and the bid up price was again redacted. Yea. How does a retraction go under the radar 2 to 4 times, let alone being over the 'limit' on retractions. |
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For my #1 PSA registry set, of course. :eek: |
What's the over/under that this card will be featured in a PSA ad in their SMR magazine where it shows the ungraded value at $4 and a graded value at $34,582.
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A new level or retractivism. Retracting within a bid while have over 10 retractions in the last 10 months. And still high bidder........
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I wish I had unlimited resources. I'd buy the damn thing, crack it out in front of a video camera with a bunch of "reputable" witnesses that know nothing about card collecting. I would then submit the card to PSA for grading. Since it's me, I'm going to guess I can guarantee a 9 grade and maybe a 9.5 grade. Then I'd put it back to auction and see what it gets. Then I'd publish exactly what occurred and show everyone just how stupid this hobby has become. :p:eek:
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This is an extremely frustrating situation for us. We have been in communication with both bidders who retracted bids on this listing. The original high bidder (the first bidder to retract) clearly retracted in violation of eBay and PWCC policy. Following our communication that bidder cancelled yet another bid and is now permanently blocked from participating in future auctions. The other bidder (the current high bidder) became frustrated by the first retraction and understandably questioned the legitimacy of the auction. He/she then retracted again to change his/her max bid given the fact that it had been revealed by the original retraction. He/she is a very regular bidder and has spent almost $60k with PWCC in the last three months, and has every intention to proceed with the purchase should he/she win the card.
We have emphasized this very case with eBay Trust & Safety as a textbook example of the problems that bid retractions cause to the auction environment. Betsy Huigens PWCC Auctions |
Did all their bids get cancelled out when they got banned, including other listings? Just curious if there are any other textbook cases on a PWCC listing that wasn't caught by a Net54 member.
It might be nice to post the banned eBay user IDs along with the date on a new Net54 thread. Then just add to the list every time a user gets banned. It would not only show PWCC making an attempt to prohibit it, but also alert other sellers to keep an eye out on certain eBay names. |
Um... why do people put max bids on ebay instead of sniping? Ever? This practice continues to amaze me. Bid retractions done to out your high bid = another reason why sniping is the only way to fly.
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30-Day Summary Total bids: 87 Items bid on: 40 Bid activity (%) with this seller: 39% Help Bid retractions: 4 Bid retractions (6 months): 14 |
At least ebay allows you to see these things...imagine what goes on in the other houses where you have no idea about who 'outbid' you.
With pwcc's new rules in place, if you 'win' the item im sure they will let you back out of it if someone retracted a bid making you the high bidder..or if your bid is higher than any bid that was placed by a later bid retracter. In addition, even if there arent any bid retractions in a specific auction but the bidding involves bidders with 10 retractions for example in the last 6 months,i would imagine pwcc will also let you out of your 'winning' bid. until pwcc enforces someone to actually buy the item in an auction involving a bid retractor person..its sort of a non issue |
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edited to add: The one thing I miss from hiding the bidder ID's of winners is the expletive laced diatribes people would send you through eBay messages if you sniped them in the early days. Granted sniping was risky business in the dial-up days because of slooooooow connections, but those messages were hilarious. |
He/she is a very regular bidder and has spent almost $60k with PWCC in the last three months,
And her/his spouse has consignments of almost $60,000 with PWCC in the last three months. |
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28 retractions
http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.d...p2471758.m4792
and 11 here on the same card http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.d...p2471758.m4792 Card bid up to 32K within 12 hours of listing. Uh, ok. |
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You can see this with most large eBay consigners/sellers and it is always the same IDs doing it. They usually have a high # of bids per month and insanely low feedback for the # of bids placed. |
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Still, if you or I ended up winning that auction and we then asked to be let go of the obligation with no recourse and they allowed it, its still a non issue to me....at least there is transparency sort of in ebay auction....with ZERO in other auctions.. If people started backing out (beep beep) of their 'wins' due to bid retractions, i do believe pwcc would police it more... |
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Another issue..is when if you have 10 bid retractions because you only retract in an auction when someone else retracts that was the high bidder.... People have stated here that they do that . It easily possible to have 50 bid retractions in a year if you are bidding on these HOF 1960s PSA 10 cards or 60s mantle PSA 8.5s of the world. A huge difference in what a winning price can be on those cards...and ripe for shill retractions (and countermeasure retractions from legit bidders)....same with 1980s PSA 10s etc |
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This is why PWCC made a huge mistake in putting a defined number on bid retractions. They are being pressured here to ban a bidder who has spent thousands of dollars with them so far this year. They do it and they lose out on a lot of money, they don't do it and they look like hypocrites.
PWCC has sway with ebay, they should be lobbying them to allow sellers to automatically block bidders with bid retractions. I guarantee serial rectractors would cease to exist. |
It is true that one of the bidders in this listing exceeds our threshold of bid retractions. We have been in close contact with him/her due to the concerning retractions on this listing. In this case we have a somewhat naïve bidder
using bid retractions inconsiderately but not maliciously. He/she has won and paid for almost $60k in the last three months with PWCC which demonstrates his/her follow through with his/her purchases. We have explained our policies to this bidder and the inheritant damage that bid retractions cause to the auction environment which has been met with apologies and understanding and agreement to refrain from retracting moving forward. With this in mind we believe the bidder's bid retraction count will improve and we have decided to allow this bidder to continue to bid. If we notice more retractions by this user ID it will be blocked. Yesterday we held a conference call with the eBay Trust & Safety team to show this as a case study of the fundamental brokenness of the the bid retraction tool and how it can enable otherwise good members of the community to act in a way that is disruptive. Betsy Huigens PWCC Auctions |
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"There are a few exceptions, a few provisos and a couple of quid pro quos”- Genie (aka Robin Williams in Disney’s Aladdin).
See footnote 1 to the policy for non-malicious retractions. EDITED TO ADD: pitiful, IMO. |
It seems as PWCC will have a response defending their position regardless
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Inconsiderate but not malicious. I wonder how many different types of retractions there are in total.
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Just a wild guess but I think Trust and Safety is just as "frustrated" by the bid retraction/auction manipulation as Brent is.
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Psssst. Fraud goes on regularly in PWCC auctions.
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Pwcc
PWCC continues to justify their stance and then plays the victim. You guys are a hoot.
Toby Peterson |
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Pwcc
They can't block the highest bidder, he's probably the only authentic bidder in the whole auction. 😊 Brent and Betsy need to go find a real job. And yes, I am the type of person that will say this to your face. Can't wait for Nationals
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Inspector Renault: I am shocked to find gambling here.
Croupier: Your winnings sir. Renault: Thank you very much. |
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Congratulations! Y'all are almost taking a stand...kind of sort of... 'Drawing a line in the sand doesn't do much good when a lot of hot air is blowing.' |
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjbPi00k_ME |
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There is nothing wrong with wanting a clean market place but the constant PWCC bashing doesn't seem to be doing them any harm. They have 6,708 current listings as I type this.
The fact that there is a seller that has been able to bring marque cards on a consistent basis to EBAY buyers is just awesome. Who else has auctioned off cards that have gone for 500k? No one. I personally have won some great cards in their auctions and I knew if they were coming to market they were most likely being auctioned off through PWCC. Their shipping is stellar and while I read comments from many that shipping with nice packaging doesn't matter; I couldn't disagree more. Every package comes extremely well packaged and if you compare it to Probstein's it isn't even close. So much better. The leader is always going to have haters and there is a plethora of those in their case. With card prices attracting bigger dollars and running $0.99 auctions it obviously invites funny games. There is no chance they can regulate all of their auctions. It is encouraging that a seller who clearly benefits from higher prices is doing anything to regulate the wild west known as the card market. You may not like their operation but the fact that PWCC exists has done wonders for the card market. |
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This isn't helping the market any more than any other manipulation helps any other market. They are providing a known vehicle for fraudulent activities. In the long term it is harmful to the collecting community and wrong. It isn't helping the market any more than Mastro's shilling helped the market. When the music stops a lot of people are going to end up burnt and they will leave collecting for something else. I and many other collectors I know won't bid with them as we would with other sellers because of how they allow consignors to act. Perhaps that will be the ultimate mechanism to force PWCC to take action. |
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It is EBAY's marketplace. They must be the one's to take the lead to stop the retractions. Pull up dpeck100 on EBAY. None. Ever. And I have had the same person who pulled their bid run the auction back up and I just held my ground. If I bid, I am the one that pulled the trigger and it's that simple. Liquidity has created additional interest in cards and by auctioning off thousands of cards per month it is doing just that. I too disagree with bid retractions but it is unrealistic to expect a seller to adopt a policy that has a zero tolerance policy when EBAY couldn't care less. You need turnover to create recorded sales for people to try and base their value estimates on and they are by far the leader in this on EBAY when it comes to trading cards. I will take the good they provide over the bad. All day. |
I am curious what the estimates were and are on this card.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1914-Cracker...3D142396409793 I bet there will be plenty of people when this card goes off that would have had snipes that are much lower then the final price and didn't even go off. |
Stuff trumps ethics. Well, it's one perspective.
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Peter I get the feeling after your three month effort to sell a card on the boxing and wrestling forum you could benefit from their services. There are plenty of collectors who just pack up their stuff and send it off to consignment sellers and let the chips fall where they may. The audience they attract does help prices in general and that card might actually catch a bid out on the open market. |
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I don't dispute that they have great stuff and frequently get great prices. And I'll take your word for it on the packaging. But to me that's really beside the point of the thread. |
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++ Most of the PWCC haters are getting blown by the AH's. They're certainly not perfect, but their the best of the worst. Take all the PWCC bashing energy and get the AH's to show the bidders, allow us to snipe, and end the auctions one time. Short of that, I'll interpret your PWCC bashing as jealousy. |
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The card in question is a Pop 1 from the 1965 Topps set and just happens to be a Triple Crown Winner with 586 career home runs. https://www.psacard.com/psasetregist...opps-basic/752 There are some serious players collecting this set. Think about how much cash it takes to put together a complete mint set. Take a look at the top set and how impressive that GPA is and the total domination since 2007. They obviously don't own the card. No one does. Who are you or me to even remotely determine what this card should sell for. For all we know the $50,000 high bid that was placed might be within reason for what collectors who want to own this card feel is a market clearing price. At the end of the day at least the card came to market and more than one person got a shot at it and kudos to PWCC for getting to sell it. |
If someone wants to buy an arbitrary 10 flip so be it. I would bet anything that raw or with the flip hidden you couldn't pick it out in a group of 9s. I started the thread because of the four retractions two of which were by a bidder with 14 retractions (the other only had 9 LOL), not the price.
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I guess ...
There is not enough bidders on eBay to block the bad ones .
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"Cut small from the factory"? Now why didn't Mastro think of that explanation? :p
http://www.ebay.com/itm/401335770873...84.m1436.l2649 |
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I have one EBAY ID. I would imagine you do too. There are plenty who don't. The two bidders might have several other ID's for all we know and will bid under another name anyway. You guys are expecting perfection and it is never coming. Get mad at EBAY and write their CEO everyday. Until they change their policy the bid retractions aren't going away. As I said the fact that PWCC is even trying is great for collectors and overtime there will be progress. Until then they will continue to offer the best cards on EBAY month after month. |
David, I don't disagree that ebay condones a great deal of fraud and BS, but again I think you're deflecting attention from the immediate issue which is PWCC's failure to enforce its own stated policy about which it made such a big deal.
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There are grey areas within many policies. I have never retracted a bid but I have been involved in a few and it might be four to six bids that are retracted from one auction. Maybe they take other issues into account when holding a hard line. Honestly if I was a seller and someone had spent 60k with me and as pointed out probably has sold cards too, I would cut them some slack in some cases. Maybe this is one of them. Everyone thinks they are a sleuth, myself included and many times we simply get it wrong. Just looking at bids and percentages and so on doesn't always tell the entire story. |
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If I were their PR firm I would do what Rick Probstein did and stop posting all together. Every time they post their haters aren't satisfied with the answer and in some cases they have made the perception even worse. Personally I like the transparency of them attempting to respond but in many cases in life just telling your side of the story gets you no where. One of the tough parts about Internet communication is there are a lot of tough guys behind a keyboard. Just look at any news story that hits a social media site. With so many harsh critics they will never win the debate so don't even have one. |
Their critics arent satisfied because their answers arent satisfactory much of the time. And i am not hiding behind a keyboard i have had much personal communication with brent and he knows my views on things.
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Robinson card
I have a policy of never bidding in a PWCC auction but considering the shipping is only $30 for this card, I might make a run at it. Also, I'd love to know the history of this card.
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