It is Sickening how badly PWCC Shill Bids!
 

Simply Sickening.... Every bidder 80% or higher on their auctions, they should be kicked off of ebay!

163 views and no replies, there are a bunch of SHEEP on this chat board!

No, it has just a subject that has been beaten to death lately. There are 2 opinions on this subject. 1) The people that stick up for them. They are paid for their opinion and/or consign to them. 2) Everyone else and they agree with you.

A couple hundred viwes by now. Someone is just sitting there clicking the thread to piss you off :).

I'm at 76%. Just under your threshold

PWCC fatigue.

Yeah, this topic is stale, but it did raise a new question for me:

How does one tell their own % of bids with a certain seller? I can see others, but not mine.

Beaten to death would be putting it mildly.

The %s mean nothing to me. They sell way more cards than anyone else. And some people like to bid $2 at a time. Whatever. It's the rampant bid retractions that are the telltale sign of shenanigans.

Log out of eBay and then go back to the auction without being signed in. Then you can see your own stats.

I agree that percentages mean nothing. I have a high percentage with PWCC because they have the most auctions. Zero retractions.

Thanks Dan.

56% with PWCC. 0 lifetime retractions. 0 shill bids.

Really? I bid with less than ten eBay dealers. What do my stats look like besides the fact I have zero retractions in 18 years. As much as I want to stop fraud and shilling, crying wolf anestitises the problem.

And, yes, I consign to PWCC ......and Probstein, REA, Mile High, brockelman, etc.

shill bidding
 

I think its dumb to spend big money on baseball cards

Another one...

I have been trying to understand for a couple years why so many folks defend them no matter what. Consignors? Shill bidders? Employees? Family members??? They do have their defenders.

For full disclosure I have never consigned anything with them, but I do bid a couple times a year. I always feel like I did something wrong when I win something and like I need a shower. I am going to try not to win anything anymore, but I am addicted to stuff :(

I don't know what that is but it sounds kinky...

This ++. I think I may be over 80%, but they have the best auctions for my specific want list. And, I don't have all day to spend searching the crap on ebay that is listed wrong so it can hit my search, or the overpriced BINS that clog up the internet.

Percentage of bid means nothing in terms of shilling. Get over it. Go after the retractors, they are the enemy.

Adam,
If I could only learn how to spell or hit the F7 key the world would be my oyster. 😁

Many collectors, myself included, bid almost exclusively on pwcc auctions on ebay because most other sellers list high end cards for BIN or obo. This has been discussed many times, and in most cases is not evidence of shill bidding.

I recently sent them a couple of cards and ended up getting more than I would have selling privately, after consignment fees, without the hassle, and without placing any shill bids.

I think it's dumb to criticize others for what they spend their money on.

I agree with the previous posters who commented that percentage of bids with PWCC is not necessarily evidence of shill bidding. I posted on here a few weeks that there were dozens of PWCC auctions that had bidders with many retractions; bidders with many retractions is much more damning, IMO, than bidding mostly with just PWCC.

The vast majority of people just want their stuff and dont care if it is shilled or doctored. This is the perfect market for fraud. As for pwcc defenders certainly some of it imo is self interest.

I agree that bid percentage is not 100% evidence anymore. A few years ago I was bored and starting watching the bidding patterns of 3 big eBay sellers. They are also known acquaintances. They started sharing the shilling accounts to drop the %. Shill accounts are not only used to directly bump the price they are also used to get items more views. Notice all those small bids at the beginnings of auctions, most of those are shill bids also.

One of the main things I look for is a very high amount of bids and very low feedback. When you have someone that is placing 100's or 1000's of bids per month and has low feedback #s that is your shill accounts. If you watch certain eBay accounts they stick out like a sore thumb.

I don't know if I agree with that. I place a lot of bids every month. Sometimes I will place a lowball bid on an item instead of putting it in my watch list. I do it that way because every now and then I end up winning a $20 item for $3 or something like that. I might only win 10% of what I bid on. But I shill nothing. I've been on ebay for 20 years, so I have feedback near 3000, but I've probably bid on 30,000 items over that time.

There are exceptions to almost anything but how is your 3000 feedback considered low?

One shilling account I have watched off and on for a couple years places 1000's of bids per month on a few 100 items and has a feedback of 67.

Me too. I probably bid on 20 or more items a week that I'd take at the minimum but won't chase. I win them occasionally but mostly don't.

Trying to complete my Gehrig run (should I live long enough) they regularly have cards I am looking in vain for elsewhere on eBay.

As with criticism of Mastro too.

Let's please don't forget the lawyers who defend the criminals and fraudsters in our hobby while championing against fraud, LMAO. They should get their accolades too.

It's ridiculous
 

To think that sellers shill just for attention or publicity .

If you were to look at someone like Rick Probstein, we know that he starts auctions at 99 cents. To be honest, ANY graded card is worth 99 cents. So, I could see someone bidding on virtually every Probstein auction. If you were the opening bidder at 99 cents, you could bid on thousands of items a year and only win one out of every 200. But, it would be worth your while probably. Hence, high percentage of bids with one seller, with very low feedback.

It's possible my bid percentage is through the roof with them, simply because I haven't participated in many auctions recently and then went after 15-20 cards on Sunday, placing multiple bids on each.

I represented people who were either involved or witnessed fraud in the hobby. Most if not all cooperated with the government in their cases brought against larger fraudsters in the hobby. All of this is in the public record. As you know, the FBI and US Attorney's Office would agree that my clients' cooperation helped them convict miscreants in the hobby. No one paid me to look the other way.

Edited to add: Leon, I just called you on your cell so as to avoid yet another public pissing contest on the page. I'm in my office if you'd like to talk.

Ditto
 

..up until last night I'd bid on less than a dozen cards , including "make offer" BINS, since January 1st.....then last night I bid on 39 PWCC auctions ; I imagine that skewed my percentage.......but they were 39 snipes , so would that be a factor in the investigation ?

..do "shill" bidders ever make snipe bids ? What if they win ? Isn't it too late to retract if you're the winner ??

..

You'll find cards sometimes being relisted by a seller in his next slate of auctions. If that answers your question. Which it does.

Not true. I had a 1970 Topps football common PSA 7 that would not get a .99 cent bid to save my life. I think I dropped it to a penny, and someone bit. It sold for that penny too.

Pwcc
 

I have won a few items with PWCC. I have lost more. Most of the ones I lose are to legitimate buyers that I recognize by their feedback number or name. I once was bidding on a card that I had seen sell via PWCC 2 weeks prior. The person who won the item the first time was shilling it up. I called PWCC out on it and they retracted all of that bidders activity. I know this happens as I know consigners to Brent who bid on their items. Difficult to police but certainly happens until called out.

Another mystery of eBay...Starts his auctions at $0.99, yet still manages to sell nearly every item for higher price than everyone else. We should all be that good. ;)

LOL, like PWCC there are 2 types with Bill also. Those that received "gift" baskets from him and those that did not.

Agreed...sometimes my .99 cent auctions end at .99 cents. Not the case with those guys.

I listed about 40 items last year with PWCC, didn't shill them, and about 39 of them went for weak prices. Go figure. It's crazy . . .when you look at VCP for my sale cards it was like the prior sale was $496 and mine sold for $183. Go figure.

And I am guessing yours did not have 27 bids after two hours either...

Was reading one set of auction rules recently and it stated that shilling an auction is a violation of a federal crime. I don't know what that law would be. If true, maybe someone should be asking Brent whether he is forwarding on disclosed fraud to his local US Attorneys office.

Thats crazy.

Pwcc shill!!
 

I bid on a card from PWCC just for the heck of it. Within an hour it was bid up just past my bid and now it is just sitting there with the same bid. Do you think I am going to bid on it again? HA HA!! So what does that tell you??? :rolleyes:

Crazy. ^^^
I just had my 1st experience with PWCC...won't no more.
I was expecting to fetch more than I could on my own. Might of as gave the T206 Cobb away.

My PWCC auction closed at 1130pm on 11/4, the night of the last presidential election. I've bored everyone on the board with my bitching. When I complained to Brent he said me an inane response about I should be happy, everyone was at home. Yep, sure dude. Whatever. Maybe I will be lucky enough to have my next one with you close when there is a nuclear attack underway. Don't insult my intelligence. Since then I've listed six figures of items since with LOTG, Brockelman, and others. Live and learn.

Bottom line: If you are not going to commit fraud or have others do it their auctions get sub par results.

What are they doing that you can't do yourself? They do some 20 second write up and mail it.

I think we've mostly all figured it out...

Yes, he shilled that last lot!

there were a few 51 mantle rookies in the 3-4 range ended last night w/pwcc...and I was surprised how low they sold for...definitely not shilled so it would seem!

The psa 3 and 5 were both well centered, and sold above the highest reported sale on vcp. The other two were way off center and sold below averages. This should not come as much of a surprise.

Not trying to defend PWCC by any means but it is up to the collector to bid accordingly. Like the game Leon so graciously has on the board. Take a guess at the price of the card/items you want. Then when it's time to bid don't bid more then that. That's what I do haha sure you lose some , but you also win some. For me getting that card at the price I like is just as important as the card to me.

Know your cards! Know your prices ! Snipe!snipe! snipe! And that should put a end to YOU being shilled.

Agreed...centering is boss of the 4 traits. Surface and edges is like a red headed stepchild.

No. It will not.

Stop using facts.

Is there shilling with PWCC? Yep, but there's shilling with every AH. Sub par results are not a given if no shilling is involved. My last consignment with PWCC included about 100 cards, and I estimated a 9k hammer altogether. I didn't shill any of them, and the total hammer was over 11k.

Having said that, there's things I would never auction with Brent. I tested out some modern unopened and was not happy at all with the results. I've been handling those myself ever since.

I'm actually surprised I've never seen anyone complain about his shipping fees. I wouldn't be surprised if a large amount of his profits come from shipping.

Obviously if you don't bid more than you're willing to pay you won't have to pay more than you're willing to pay. The problem is that the prices we are willing to pay are, quite reasonably, a function of what others have paid for the same or similar cards in the past. And what others have paid for the same or similar cards in the past is a function of the prevalence of shilling in the hobby.

It's scary how many people do not grasp this.

Shilling & Sniping Don't Mix
 

Do you know why every "timed" auction house other than eBay....

(1) requires an initial bid prior to a standard closing time; and

(2) extends its auction based on bids after the standard closing time?

Because they are consignor-friendly policies that drive prices up, and they do not want to encourage sniping, which keeps prices low.

If you are bidding in an eBay auction with a fixed end time, why would you make an "initial bid" prior to closing time? Are you intentionally trying to give more money to the consignor?

In this respect, eBay is one place where shilling shouldn't work. If everyone snipes, the shiller has a tougher time pegging his "shill snipe" high enough to lose, but low enough to drive prices up illegitimately.

Indeed, if sniping was good for shilling behavior, don't you think eBay would endorse a sniping service, or provide one internally? The fact that they don't tells you everything you need to know about why sniping is good for buyers and bad for consignors and shillers.

Add me to the list. I view shilling as a "hidden reserve" in every auction I participate in. I pay what I am comfortable paying, and I do not view the history of prices in the market as decided by a pure, free market -- and instead, only an approximation of what one person may have been willing to pay at a certain time for an item.

I do think shilling is an unfortunate, market distorting side effect of the historical baseball card valuation process. But, I do not think there really is anything to be done about it except discourage the practice by prosecuting offenders as they occasionally become identified through their own criminal ineptitude.

So all cards in the hobby are now price gouged due to many years of shilling? So all cards should be priced at what they were before EBay or any auction house was invented? I really don't believe that is the case . And if this is the case then we have to make a decision on what we value a card at. Like I said originally not so hard to grasp.

Perhaps the better formulation is that outlier prices are likely the result of shilling.

I never said that, you are putting words in my mouth.

It can be considered a violation of the Sherman anti-trust Act, it is also fraud and if you are in one state and the item is for sale in another that's Federal.

I know you never said that,but if we are to believe that the current value of the cards we are bidding on have all been pre shilled( I coined this term all rights reserved on preshilled lol) by many years of shill bidding giving us a inflated current market price then what are they worth?

I still believe that a experienced collector can be the judge of a cards value they are in pursuit of.

I was bidding on a card last year in one of the auctions they had and I bid early just so it was on my radar. With half the time left the price reach was already more then I was willing to pay for that card in that condition. So I stopped bidding and the next week I found a better example for less( else where)

Probstein
 

How does Probstein get to put his contact information in his auction listings? eBay doesn't let me do that. In fact I get warning messages about completing deals off eBay if I correspond too much with eBay members. I guess eBay is willing to look the other way if you're generating massive fee revenue for them.

According to eBay policy. This is Not Allowed:

"Posting or displaying contact information in a listing, including email, phone number, and mailing address, without the permission of eBay or except as required by law"

I guess he got permission.

Some sellers are more equal than others.

How many lawyers do you think wrote their rules and regulations?
:)

Not one more than they can afford.;)

I also think the effects of just two buyers who really want a card..forms an outlier price versus the general public that creates a 'shilled' like historical price.... What is nice on ebay is you can see sometimes that a card was really bid up to a certain amount between 4-7 guys for example..but then the rest of the way was 2 guys..... when a winning bid is the result of 2 guys bidding up a card more than 50% of the value, using that past price as historical value is the same as using a shilled bid in my book

I have been apart of many two person bidding wars. None of the auctions were shilled. It generally happens on low pop cards from sets that are competitive on the PSA set registry. I too look at the "pack" and use those bids as my baseline for value realizing that gap between the pack and our bids is not real value. Overtime the pack may move closer to the winning bid and if so then the real value has increased.

I now stay clear of any auction in which a bidder with multiple retractions OR has close to 0 feedback is involved. If PWCC won't adequately police these obvious shillers / crooks, I will. Somebody else can get taken.

jeff

I like the term 'the pack'. I also have bid on a card and i see the same 2 people bidding on it on ebay past sales and when one wins the card, the other one snags the later card. Then on the third time around it sells for a lot cheaper. Obviously if its a POP 2 card that wont happen, but lets say it was for a Babe Ruth PSA 3 goudey card.. would be plenty of opportunities as long as its not being hoarded etc..

Iacard with worth what someone is willing to pay for it but historical prices with suspect bidding (not shilled but only interest between 2 bidders) above 'the pack' i would change that expression to what someone NOW would be willing to pay for it

What I don’t get is this. Shill bidding or not is irrelevant. They couldn’t have a viable business unless someone at the end of the chain is paying. It might be the second chance offer, but someone is paying a highly inflated price in the end.

Why?

PWCC auctions routinely close higher than many BIN listings, who the hell is bidding above the BIN from other sellers?

That’s insanely stupid!

Case in point 4 sharp corners had a 1984 Fleer Update Puckett PSA 9 for $147, the PWCC auction closed at $202, what morons are bidding up that extra $60? It can’t just be shill bids, or they wouldn’t have a business.

PWCC has very high visibility and they do a very nice job with their auctions and have a loyal following, so it doesn't surprise me at all that they get strong prices relative to other ebay sellers. What I have never really grasped, though, is some of the crazy premiums they seem to get for commodity cards. I get irrational exuberance on genuinely difficult cards, we're all guilty of that.

I, and a couple of friends, have sold some higher end "commodity" cards through PWCC. 1965 Mantle in PSA 8, Gretzky and Jordan Rookies in 8, Seaver Rookie in 7 etc...

We didn't shill bid.

We received as much as 35% less for the exact same card in the exact same auction.

You do the math.

I will say I hate the title of this thread as I seriously doubt PWCC is actually doing the shilling.

Also what is the difference with PWCC versus any of the other online auction houses? How are they magically stopping shilling?

Poker, U agree and let me add that it is no one's XXXXX business if I spend and how much I spend!! That was an asinine blanket statement but yes an opinion..

It's not rocket science,. It boils down to fleecing new consignors Into sending items that do sell for real bids, much lower than last sales.

I agree :)

My experience with them has been the opposite. The last higher end card I sent Brent I first listed here, dropped the price and would have accepted a slightly lower offer, and it ended up selling for more than my original ask. Without being shilled.

With that many cards on the auction block, experiences are going to vary. I don't think the fact that some guys did relatively poorly means that every strong price is shilled. At the same time, I have seen some that leave me shaking my head and some bidding patterns that looked pretty damn suspicious and it wouldn't surprise me at all if they were consignors running up their own.