eBay make an offer bs
 

Hey seller, if I've mortally offended you with my opening offer, just deny it. Message sent. Nice doing business with you. I don't need the passive aggressive bs of waiting 2 days and you never bothering to dignify it with a response. No need to be a jerk about it. Particularly when you've gotten 1000s of feedbacks and obviously sell a great deal, to just never bother responding is just a dick move. But maybe that's the whole point. . . . Had ebay bonus bucks last few days I could have used somewhere else and dealt with another seller. PS. Apologies if you are in a hospital bed somewhere with better things to worry about.

I think a lot of sellers just can't negotiate. Or haven't done it for a living. If you are selling something for 1500 and invite offers, guess what, a first offer of 800 is not insulting. It's a start, and presumably the buyer is prepared to go up. That's how the negotiation process works. I'm not offering someone 1400 out of the box if they tell me they are entertaining offers for a 1500 item. If you only want $1500 don't accept offers and run the auction for the next 40 months.

Ditto............ +1

There was a BIN yesterday for $150. I offered $135. His counteroffer was $150. :) .......I went ahead and bought it at $150. It was still a good deal.

.

This
 

And letting offers expire without a response or counter is a douche move as well.
I hate it when someone has a card for best offer at $1500 and in their mind, their bottom dollar is 1497.50. That is ridiculous and a waste of everyone's time.
That being said, I bought a card that was $795 OBO for $305. Seller accepted offer within 20 minutes of offer being made. That's why i still offer. But more times than not, there isn't a lot of room.
I also think people get offended a bit too easily.
It. Is. Cardboard. And maybe plastic. That's it. It's not like you are selling a kidney. Sheesh.
*rant over*

In my opinion, without knowing the details, that seems like a pretty low starting point. I doubt it's that the seller is unwilling to negotiate. They probably didn't want to waste their time going back and forth if he felt you were too far apart to begin with to possibly land at a reasonable number for him. Though a simple 'decline' would have been nice.

Don't get me going on the no response offer guys. If I list a card for $1800 I promise you I am not going to accept $700. Promise. So when I come back and then counter with $1500 and you don't bother responding to it you are either a doosh or someone who has never actually transacted business in this world.

Enough bitching for one morning. I have guys in Russia I need to communicate with about trading cards.

If the $1500 item typically sell for close to $1500 and someone makes a lowball offer of $800 I will usually just decline the offer. If the buyer is serious about the item he needs to make a serious offer.
James

Sorry, but some offers aren't worthy of a response. For example, I had a card listed at $80 OBO, and received a $2 offer. I'm not taking the time or energy to respond to something like that...And, oh yeah...after the offer expired, the person upped their offer to $2.25...

I would have blocked that bidder. That is a BS offer and I would probably let them know what I thought of it in a message too.

Seems not bright for a seller to want to take advantage of eBay bucks offers. They subsidize sales for buyers adding 6 to 10 percent cash back which enables buyers to pay more. If sellers don't respond to offers during these sales they're shooting themselves in the foot because a buyer will offer less when there's no ebay cash coming back.

As for Leon's experience, I guess a good deal is still worth it but why make an offer option if you have 0 wiggle room on the price? Seems silly.

Yeah, I blocked them after the second offer. I didn't send a message though. I know some people can be vindictive, so I didn't want them to use another account to play more games...

I might sell a kidney for $2000000 OBO.;)

Sellers just need to set the parameter "Automatically decline offers lower than". If they don't do that, they should respond to all offers, IMO.

In his defense I made the offer minutes after it went up and he said so...Not a super great deal but a good one, imo....

http://www.ebay.com/itm/201819412584...%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

That's makes more sense then. Probably figures if has good interest that quick he had it priced fairly. I know I've had similar experiences though with stuff that's been on ebay a while and seller is not willing to budge. Just makes me wonder why some bother with offer option.

If a seller is just allowed to let the offer expire and exercises that option, I understand it, it's the rules of the eBay format. It is different that negotiating at a show or doing business on the phone. In fact, it's what attracts some sellers to eBay. The problem is that the buyers are often more anxious than the sellers.

I have no problem with a seller just allowing one of my offers to expire without further communication. I don't like it, but it's the rules of that game.

I know when i see buy it nows with no best offer feature i rarely look at them seriously, when i see a buy it now with a make an offer feature i do give it a second look. Sometimes when giving that second look i might even be prepared to pay list price especially when have 10% ebay bucks. Sometimes also i think that the seller may be more willing to entertain a direct offer, if they have a make an offer option. Thats just me, others may differ.

If I see something I want and there's an option for an offer, I'll usually offer at least close to the VCP average (what I consider current market value). However, if that means it's less than 50% of the asking price, I'll usually stay away so as not to offend the seller. I can only remember once or twice (out of probably hundreds) that an offer close to 50% of the asking price was accepted, so it's not unheard of, but quite rare.

It's also happened more times than I can remember, as it has to many of you, that my offer is completely ignored or countered at 95% or higher of the asking price, and that's when I'm thinking why the heck did you even bother with the best offer option? :confused:

Sorry, but I disagree with this part of what you wrote. It's called a Best Offer, not a Beginning Offer. There really shouldn't be much negotiation. That's why eBay only allows 2 BOs on an item (or at least that's the way it used to be).

I don't sell much on eBay anymore, but when I used to list a BIN with a BO option, I stated in my description that "All reasonable offers will be considered. Ridiculous offers will be ignored."

I agree a ridiculous offer like $2 should be ignored.

But if a card most recently sold for $1200, and you've listed it at $1850, and someone offers $800, that's a reasonable first offer.

If no negotiation process was envisioned you'd get one offer and not 3.

The problem with this David are the sellers who start with a ridiculous price to begin with.
I'm more a memorabilia guy, so if I see an item that I feel is worth say $500, but the seller has a list price of $1200... I'm supposed to offer close to that?? Nope. I'll make a fair offer on THE VALUE, not the ridiculous list price. If the seller is offended... So be it, but that's not my goal.

Brent

Just because the offers are available doesnt mean the seller has to entertain them. When you sell a house and most contracts there is room for a 'counter offer' but you are never guaranteed that you will get one even though there are spaces on the contract.

I would assume if someone listed a card for 1800 when the last one sold for 1200 that they would deem an offer of 800 too low and potentially worthy of no response honestly. Just my opinion.

Sometimes if you contact them by email and say 800 Direct....that may be worth 900-1000 to them and they may counter you in an email at least..

you may perceive an offer 1/3 lower than recent sale as reasonable...others may perceive this as a lowball offer.

If you know what your item is worth, then ask for that much. If you know how much you are willing to accept, then ask for that much. If you want to play games and list at obo, then expect guys to assume that you are flexible or don't know the value of the item (especially when your obo offer is way over vcp). No one wants to bid against themselves, so they are going to start low and work their way up. It is human nature to try to get the best deal possible. Why would I offer you 1300 on a 1500 obo when you MAY accept 1100? I have to at least try it. eBay offers the "auto-decline" option as well, so if you don't want to be insulted by offers, you don't even have to decline them yourself and have to bare witness to the mockery of your treasured item. I never understood guys getting insulted over offers. It's not like you printed the card or have your image on it. It isn't personal. Guys just want to get The best deal possible. If you don't want to haggle or be insulted, set your price and wait for your buyer.

Lets remember that there is auction Market Value and there is BIN market value..

when you purchase something on BIN, you are assured of 'winning' the item and you dont have to worry about being outbid by 5 dollars on ebay. You also dont have to wait months-years for a card to be listed at an auction. The longer you think the card will ever be for sale at an auction the greater BIN market value over auction market value. Its a convenience fee.

Some buyers dont understand why the BIN is listed more than the card would go for with PWCC. Well the seller could of listed the card with PWCC as well for 'auction market value'

We are all searching for deals where the seller wins on saved seller auction fees and the buyer wins on saving buyers premium but sometimes that margin is just too small for the seller to put a price in that range..

Also sometimes you will see an auction on a card greatly exceed several BIN prices and than BANG, a minute later someone scoops up all the BIN cards such as hank aaron rookie a year ago or so

Understood...and a lot of them do start off with ridiculous BINs. I didn't say that you have to be close to their BIN though. I meant your offer should be a best offer, no matter their BIN. In your example, if you feel that a $500 offer on a $1200 item is a fair offer, so be it. Offer that amount. My point was, submit your Best Offer the first time. Some people like to negotiate. Some don't. But it's called a BEST offer for a reason.

Agree 100%

Question: What happens if the seller counters with $1250 and while they're waiting for your response someone else offers $1400. Is there any mechanism that prevents the sale from going through at $1250 at that point? Or can the first "bidder" scoop it up for $1250 while the $1400 offer is sitting there unnoticed?

seller sees all the offers and can pick and choose. Also remember just because someone offers something, some ebay ids have a reputation of not paying. So there are circumstances that the highest offer may not be accepted.

Basic contract law of offer and acceptance. Whichever offer is accepted first forms the agreement. So if the seller countered at 1250,but accepts someone else's 1,400 offer before the 1250 guy accepts, then the 1400 deal goes through because there was no acceptance on the 1250 deal and therefore no contract.

I guess that's not how I look at it. In that circumstance I am telegraphing (in my mind at least) to the seller that I have more movement and will up my initial offer one or two times.

If the seller shows some actual movement down towards what the market has generally valued the card at I will come up more.

I've been getting lots of offers lately, on stuff I DON'T have "Best Offer" on.

Auctions AND Buy It Nows.

I usually politely decline, but it does get annoying sometimes and I don't always respond.

I understand if you put "Best Offer" in your listings you should respond, or at least set a ceiling to automatically decline an offer.

What's the etiquette for responding when you're NOT trolling for lower offers?

When you make an offer there is a place where you can put a message. Sometimes you can say 800 'but have some room to move' Sometimes that allows for a better chance of a response. Some buyers quote recent past sales which i know annoy sellers as well

So the $1250 offer is suspended until the seller "sees" (opens?) the $1400 offer?

Were they supposed to call it, "Worst Offer"? "Negotiate" would be more appropriate for the button text as that is exactly what you are doing....and they offer three best offers.

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/negotiate

👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏

I also disagree with this comment. Additionally most people do not like to negotiate in general. Keeping this in mind...communication likely will prevent most animosity from developing. Make a decent offer and comment that you are willing to negotiate...or that you have a little room to work with if seller is also willing to be flexible.

But just throwing in a lowball offer with the mindset that the seller should be a mindreader knowing what you are thinking is quite presumptuous and probably not the best strategy.

Just my take
 

I have been encountering the same situation. Almost all of my eBay sales are on simple "buy it now" transactions. However, I do get offers frequently. My policy is to always respond to the offers in a timely fashion, even if they are unsolicited. Sometimes I will even send the buyer a counter offer and we will make a deal. I don't think that I am obligated to respond in this case, but I do because to me it makes good business sense to be polite to all potential customers. Maybe the buyer is being unreasonable with this offer, but that doesn't mean that we won't connect on another item in the future.

The same is true with inquiries on the BST. It doesn't hurt to be polite and respond to PMs, even when you see that you are not going to make a deal. I know that it is difficult sometimes when a buyer is telling you that your item is not worth your asking price. It is also hard to be polite when we are busy, or stressed out. I certainly am not perfect in my correspondence with customers, but overall, I believe that successful sales is all about building relationships.

Best regards,

Joe

Pete, I think we can all agree that a total lowball offer is silly and unproductive. My premise is based on offering just under vcp when the seller is way over on his obo price. For example, if the last psa 7 of a particular card sold on pwcc for 1500, but had better registration and centering than this one, is 1200 a lowball offer? There are many variables in this particular argument.

agreed

any offer that is submitted to the seller that has not expired/not been accepted is sitting there for the seller to accept. The seller could accept a 1250 offer even if a 1400 offer was submitted that the seller chose not to view but it would be hard for the seller to view the 1250 offer without seeing the 1400 offer.

The seller and person making an offer are always going to see the negotiation differently. The seller could just as easily have come on here and made a nearly identical thread about people making them lowball offers. Neither party would be right or wrong necessarily.

Everyone looks at BIN negotiation differently in my experience. I look at it like David. I make my best offer the first time like the rules state, but I know not everyone does that.

If I was the seller with the $1500 list price and received an offer of $800, I wouldn't look at that offer as the start of any kind of negotiation I want to bother with. Ideally the seller would turn it down rather than let it sit though.

If I offered 90% of list price and was countered with the list price I would have declined out of principle. Glad to hear you're happy with the purchase and deal though.

IMHO if you are not using the OBO feature you are indicating that you are not interested in offers and unsolicited offers are the equivalent of spam and may be ignored. I state in the listing itself that I don't want offers and am not interested in ending the auction early, so don't bother. Yet yesterday I got an email offering me a lower price on a card I was selling with a BIN. I ignored it and relisted the card.

If you are using the OBO feature and you don't want to bother with the bottom feeders and grinders, set the automatic decline option with a floor below which you don't want to be bothered. If you don't want to hear a $800 offer on a $1500 item, set the floor where you will hear an offer.

If you are using the OBO function and you do not set a floor on the item via the auto-decline mechanism you are indicating that you will consider any offer and the proper etiquette is to respond to them all. You are not under any obligation to counter an offer, especially a lowball one, but you should respond.

You also have to consider the raw numbers. I completely understand the give and take on an expensive card but if you are going to grind on a $10 card you're an ass-clown and as a seller I don't want to deal with you.

Now as to the OP, any offer of less than 50% of the BIN is not realistic if the real value of the item is closer to 75% or more of the BIN. What you are telling the seller is that you are either:

--A bottom feeder looking for a stupid seller;
--A tire kicker who never makes a deal unless it is as a bottom feeder; or
--A grinder who loves to negotiate and will do so endlessly.

Sellers do not like dealing with any of those characters. I am not saying the OP is one, just that if you make offers like one, you will be treated as one. I have a love-hate relationship with the 3 strike limit on the OBO function. Sometimes it would be nice to have 5 options to offer but I also understand how a seller doesn't want to spend an inordinate amount of time on a negotiation.

Another category of offeror I don't care for is the guy who waits until the listing is over then makes the offer. Make the damned offer while the item is posted, not once it is already gone. Once the listing is over the offer is spam and it should be treated as such.

Needless to say, none of the above pertains to people I know, just to the anonymous eBay troll.

Adam: I hear you. Every case is different. It's always been my assumption that when someone lists a card to take offers they are basically conceding that their asking price is not realistic. In many cases a 50% offer out of the box is highly unrealistic. But not if the seller is asking $9,000 for a card that just sold for $6000 last month at a major auction house. In that case I think $4500 is a reasonable first offer.

All depends.

Always cracks me up when I see an item on eBay for $9999 that sold 4 weeks ago at Memory Lane or LOTG or Goldin for $5000. News flash: if you were the high bidder the last week in Thanksgiving that means no one out there was willing to pay as much as you did. The idea that there is someone in the weeds who is now going to pay 50% higher than you paid 10 weeks ago seems, well, a tad hopeful.

Sometimes people can pay on ebay cause they can use credit card but dont have cash to pay an auction house that doesnt take credit card, so they can offer more than what a card just sold for...all depends... 4 weeks made a world a difference on some 1951 Bowman psa 4-5 Mantle rookies a few months ago as well.

what is also funny is in the example you cited

" asking $9,000 for a card that just sold for $6000 last month at a major auction house. In that case I think $4500 is a reasonable first offer"

If that card was listed for $4500.00, people would be offering $3000.00 and not conceding that $4500 is already super reasonable (which you agree would just be a starting point of your offer) due to the past sales price and not worth risking losing the card to another person who could offer that same $4500 during the back and forth.

If there was a REALLY good starting price, believe me I'd grab it in a minute at the ask and not risk losing it to someone else. Have done that many many times. Have bought a few cards in the last year really quickly after they were listed bc Iknew someone else would. (Particularly when something has been listed 15 minutes and there are 10 watchers already.)

eBay...
 

Sometimes you just have to bite your lip and hit the BIN....

What's the etiquette for responding when you're NOT trolling for lower offers?

I only sell by BIN and sometimes will send an offer back using eBay's "Reply with an Offer" process (I think that's how the button reads)

More often than not, I simply respond; "I appreciate your interest but believe the card is fairly priced"

Scott

Man ... Lots and lots of assumptions being made.

I'm a buyer that often messages a seller to discuss a potential lower price on an item, even if it's listed as a BIN with no OBO. Why? Because the answer is "no" to 100% of the questions you don't ask. If the initial question is asked in a polite manner, such a response should be reciprocated. Treat others the way you want to be treated.

I also believe all inquiries/offers should be responded to with a simple decline at the very least. Stupid offers are just that - stupid. But just end it, and be done.

Agree with this.

I just bought a card that was listed at $4999.99 OBO. I offered $4825 out of the gates, and he declined saying that he was likely going to raise the BIN anyway as the card was rapidly appreciating. While this was frustrating, I decided to just pony up on the full amount (instead of starting a thread out of my frustration.) Bottom line is: do you want the card you desire or do you want a hot deal? I find you rarely get both.

I missed out a few deals by now just clicking buy it now.

however, what about cards that seem fairly priced as a BIN also have the .99 cent auction option.. I can seem a 1953 topps psa 5 mantle for example be listed at $2500 or .99 option..and there may be 10 watchers all considering buying the card, maybe even sending out messages for a direct deal..

then there is that one guy that clicks .99s and maybe bids the card up to 5 dollars never to be heard from again and then the card sells in the auction for $3000...

I understand (and for the most part agree) with what you're saying here, but there are people that might have missed the auction the first time. I used to sell pre-owned vehicles on eBay. I can't tell you how many times I would list a vehicle on eBay, it failed to meet reserve, re-list it with the same reserve and the second time around it sold for more than the reserve. Then, when I compared the bidding history of both listings, some of the bidders were the same, but some were not. In most cases, the winner of the second listing wasn't a bidder in the first listing. My conclusion was that he/she did not see it the first time. Point is, maybe the seller is hoping that the card he bought in ML, LOTG or Goldin for $5000 10 weeks ago (using your example) was missed by someone who wants it and will see it on eBay and buy it? Just a thought.

Frank, I am willing to offer $75 for it if it is still in good condition. Please respond back promptly, as it might be a life or death situation.

Brian

Low-ball offers are a waste of everybody's time, just like high BINs are. If a card has an absurd list price and a OBO option, just ignore it. An absurd list price means that no reasonable offer will be accepted, so you might as well consider it to be part of the eBay Museum and move on.

|An aside. How do folks who post things at absurd BIN prices pay their rent? I'm sure it's great when you get someone to bite on one, but in order to live you need a predictable income. The landlord isn't going to wait for your next sale. I would speculate that they only sell part-time on the side, and don't depend on baseball card sales to survive. But then there's Deans, which looks like a full-time operation. So I dunno.|

Man, maybe I'm just too easy going. Make me an offer. I will outright decline if I think we're too far apart, or I'll counter with my best price. In my message I will TELL YOU it's my BEST PRICE. If you counter again I will decline. That still gives you one more opportunity to match my best price. I am unfailingly polite because, well, it doesn't take any extra effort, but I am also very firm once I have given you my best price. I list about 90% of my items with MAO, and even before the offer my price is usually competitive. If, in order to be competitive, my start price is going to be what I need to get I DON'T USE MAO. If I need $24 on a card I don't list it at $25 with MAO option. More than likely I'll start it at $30 because generally speaking I want to have about 20% wiggle room. Of course there are exceptions in either direction, but none of the issues in this thread strike me as things to lose sleep over, and I do this for a living. Have fun, lighten up, don't take yourself (or anyone else) too seriously!

Nat: an 'absurd' price may be a seller signalling that he is not interested in selling unless the offer is so right that he'd be a fool to reject it. I do that sometimes. I know Dan McKee (hi Dan) is unabashed about his doing so.

As much as I hate to agree with Jake ;) on anything, he's right about the credit card thing. I made a sale recently to someone who was willing to meet my price because he could use a CC to fund it. Not everyone has even cash flow.

LOL as I typed the above I was offered $15 apiece for 3 t206's that I had at $25, $30, and $30. I countered with the information that my counter is my best price. $20, $24, $24. He then offered $17, $20, $20. I declined. text book case for me. maybe he'll come back at my price, maybe not, but no sleep lost.

Understood, but that isn't relevant. In the case I described the $1250 price was offered to (not by) the buyer. And then another interested party offered $1400 to the seller.

Textbook negotiations 101 and that cuts through a lot of BS: "This is my final" or "This is my best". And you have to mean it and stick to it like Scott did or it's meaningless and you have zero credibility.

On another note, I have been looking at a modern raw card which sells for 1000. A psa 8 comes up, mind you that is a middle of the road for a modern card, buy it now for 4500 or best offer. So I offer 1000, and get a denial "are you kidding me?"

Shame on me for offering market value

shame on him for not know the market


or just move on

If the $1250 hasn't been accepted it's not a contract, pretty simple.

Let me know if any of your contacts might have a 2016 KGB backed Ivan the Terrible card in ex or better. I will pay in hard currency. Tks!

You know, I often follow this recommendation also, and avoid the absurd list price w/ BO listings. However, every now and then I see that the seller actually accepted the incredibly lowball offer that I would have been happy to pay also. So sometimes, I still think it's fine to go ahead and shoot that lowball offer even if you know you'll probably get rejected or ignored.

I simply put in to automatically decline an offer below a certain # so I don't have to go back and forth. If you're not even going to offer me at a # to where I know you have serious interest or idea of what the card is worth, you're not even worth my time to respond. Someone who wants to try and cut me in 1/2 right off the bat just pisses me off. That's not a negotiation, that's being a low-baller.

There is definitely an art to negotiation, but the first thing you don't do is insult the person you're trying to negotiate with right off the bat with a stupid offer. Know the market and offer a fair price. Also realize that markets and prices change and what someone bought something for yesterday isn't what you can buy it for today. If we could all do that, we'd all be bazillionaires.

I have about 3000 postcards in my ebay store all at $9.99 OBO so I'm not dealing in big time merchandise, but I would say that about 90% of all offers I get are "lowball" offers which I consider less than 50%. It's always funny to me too that I get offers of $3.99 or $5.99 which is odd to me considering that's a selling tactic and not a buying tactic. You want your offer to look better then tack on that extra penny. I will almost always accept a $5 or better offer on a postcard because usually I have less than that into it and I like to keep my stuff moving. I know the OP thinks that not responding right away with a counter offer is rude, but it's also a selling tactic. I have listed some high dollar items that get offers right away and I don't always respond to them immediately because I'm hoping someone will come along and hit the BIN. I have also had some people make offers and when I don't respond right away they go ahead and use the BIN because they don't want the item to get away. And on the flip side I get offers all the time that I counter and never hear another peep, so that goes both ways too.

Also did you know that you can accept an offer higher than your listed BIN price? Last year I got an offer of $11 on a $9.99 postcard, I was intrigued by this and accepted the offer. The lady paid me so I put a dollar bill in with her postcard. I'm not so sure she understood how ebay best offers work.

I've never understood how any offer can be "insulting." How can you take that personally? It can be a waste of time etc... but I have seen people who actually get mad at what they consider to be low ball insults. There's plenty of real stuff in life to get mad about/insulted by a number on a computer that I can reject ain't one of them.

Some offerors put obnoxious messages into their offers, usually along the lines of "this card sucks for the grade but I'd take for $___" or "I saw one last week for $___ so you have to sell this one for $___". Well if you think my card sucks, don't buy it, and no, I don't have to sell you jack $hit. I've even had some idiots misquote my own book back at me to try and get me to sell something on the cheap.

Exactly what i do!

Yes, an insult can be insulting, I wholeheartedly agree, and I've gotten some of these gems over the years. I usually block guys who start off on that foot because if that's their first impression why would I expect it to improve? Even so I tend to do it with very little fuss. I've never been big on letting others control my emotional state.

Oh, and my story earlier, the guy who made the offers just came back and met my price. See it's easy! :)

What part of this do you disagree with, the definition of negotiate or the fact that it is a negotiation?

Where does it say you need to make your best offer the first time?

It is not assumptions. It is scenario play. Just like it is not a negotiation. :rolleyes:

......

Not understanding you quoting me, with six ellipsis only. Was there something about my post that is confusing?

I was disagreeing with something but nothing in that comment!

I use OBO as a bartering platform. Because I remain an emotional buyer, market value sometimes isn't the biggest concern...depending on how much I want that particular item.

I never makes super low bids on items I feel are worth a lot more. Treat folks with respect during the process and you will usually come to a price that's agreeable to both of you.

Of course, my way, the seller usually gets the better end of the deal, but I wind up paying what I still feel comfortable with.

I would never, however, say something like, "some room for negotiating". Instead, I enjoy the chess match that ensues.

I have had experiences with owners who barely budge off their BIN - like upwards of 90% - and I almost never make those purchases.

I'm sure my emotional method has me frequently paying more than I could, but, at least with the back and forth, I get the illusion that I'm saving some money- and I can live with that.


That's my 2 cents worth...but my OBO is a penny and a half.

I looked up the rules and I'd say it's more of a guideline than a rule after looking it up. Circled below.

.....