OT - New Hall of Famers: Bagwell, Raines and Ivan Rodriguez
 

Apparently the results are just in:

http://www.espn.com/live/

Cheers,
Blair

All three very deserving. Hopefully more of those in the 50% and higher range get in eventually. Vladdy hopefully makes it next year. I'm not a fan or relievers, so I'm meh on Trevor Hoffman ever getting in.

Congrats to Pudge, Bagpipes and Rock!

Tom C

Thanks for the heads-up! Bagwell, Raines, and I-Rod.

Yay Raines! Go Expos!

All well deserving, glad C. Jones didn't get in. I'm a life long Braves fan but this guy has been an ass hole his entire career, especially to the media and fans. You don't think that matters in the end? He is a rich man's J.D. Drew...

Chipper Jones? He's on the ballot for the first time next year and will get in first ballot.

Bagwell and Raines not HOF material
 

Just my opinion. Neither dominated the sport. Pudge was dominant at catcher which is a thin position. I think Vlad deserves a spot.

"Sold" listings for Raines' RC on Ebay in the last couple hours are pretty impressive.

Yeah I laughed pretty hard at that post too.

1991 Topps Stadium club RC of Jeff Bagwells was one of my first "Big Cards" to pull. Being a Rangers fan, I got to see Pudge play in 94. I love this class. If would have been perfect is Vladdy had made it.

I have no problem with Rodriguez getting in, but he was clearly a PED guy. My problem is the double standard that allows the leader of the era, Bud "I did nothing except collect a seven-figure salary until congress forced it, then took all of the credit" Selig, and a known PED user to go in on the first ballot, but Bonds and Clemens got passed up again.

Rodriguez was named in Canseco's book along with everyone else who was found guilty. He came back looking like a bobblehead the first year they started testing and his power dropped, plus he refused to answer questions on PED's. Others who covered the Rangers also either agreed with Canseco's accusation of him, or had their own suspicions before the book.

These voters are showing a ridiculous bias towards players they didn't like as players, or they just didn't know any better so they go with the masses. MLB made certain players scapegoats and other players skated with no issues. I doubt Mark McGwire is any more guilty than Rodriguez, but he will likely never get in the Hall of Fame because he was a face of the era.

Basically, voters just need to be consistent. You either vote in the PED players or you don't, but you don't pick and choose the ones you want in based on spite.

Tonight's announcement also makes these cards even cooler. The only two catchers elected on their first ballots. :)

https://sportscardalbum.com/c/02p71752x450.jpg

https://sportscardalbum.com/c/e7m8khvsx450.jpg

This was a fun read...some interesting tidbits about the voting in the early days.

http://www.sportsonearth.com/article...017-inductions

Not to veer too far OT, but has anyone found anything card-wise of John Schuerholz yet? Selig is easy.

Great choices for the HOF and those players have some hard minor league cards to collect. Cape Cod for Bagwell. Vladimir is a great player who was the best bad ball hitter to ever play! Plus he used to live with his Mom and Brother early in when he played in Montreal. A great guy and class act. Chipper is a first ballot HOFer and loyal to his team. Some of his off field choices he made while being married were not the best, but a great guy otherwise. He loves to hunt and enjoys his kids not too mention his Hooters wife as that was one of his consequences he made long ago. Lol.

Really glad to see Raines finally getting in, its ridiculous that he had to wait until his last shot.

Its a bit bittersweet, he is probably the last guy who will go in as an Expo (except maybe Vladi, but he might go in as an Angel). Which is sort of the last big MLB related thing we had to look forward too that involved the team.

Well, until Montreal gets a new team at least.

+1

Maybe the best leadoff hitter ever outside of Ricky Henderson. OBP is through the roof.

Hoping he goes in with an Expos cap.

Keeping it card-related, Raines joins a select group: members of the Baseball Hall of Fame whose first Topps card was a multi-player rookie card.

https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon....15Is3PB4eL.jpg

His OBP was .385 - 135th all-time. Not exactly through the roof.

Meanwhile, Edgar Martinez - with his .418 OBP (21st all-time) and 147 OPS+ - still waits.

Kind of surprised how easily Bagwell got in. Non of his numbers are anything crazy. Meanwhile Baines, Edgar, and McGriff just sit there and rot.

13 years in Montreal vs 5 in Chi-town. I don't think there will be any doubt he'll go in with an Expo cap.

I had a signed team issue postcard/smaller photo from his days with the Royals.

Tom C

I think the 80's MLB drug scandal (cocaine) hurt Raines.

http://www.espn.com/mlb/hof07/column...crasnick_jerry

From what I gather from talk radio, for some reporters what defines a PED user is if the player confessed or was mentioned in any report. If that is the case the reporter votes "no". The evidence has to be more than, "look at how much bigger he is." There has to be some evidence no matter how weak. Some say there already is a PED user in the HOF. It would be interesting to see a player who is voted in, is handed his plaque and months later reveals he was a PED user.

As the older members of the BBWAA die off the known PED users with HOF credentials will be inducted.

I expected Trevor Hoffman to get in this time.

Over 600 saves! I thought it was his year.

lol
 

I THINK ITS A JOKE TO PUT PUDGE,PIAZZA,BIGGIO,AND BAGWELL IN BEFORE BONDS AND CLEMENS. OOPs didn't mean to caps lock. I am as confident they all were juicers. Id vote for all of them but think its funny that we seem to be ok with juicers unless you were too good and broke records see McGwire, Sosa, Bonds.

Profetic Checklist:
 

All four now HOFers:

Piazza and Griffey - Class of 2016

Bagwell - Class of 2017

Bagwell and Thomas - both born 5/27/1968 & both 1994 MVPs

pretty cool...

Attachment 258258

I completely agree with this..it's either all or none. But we are talking about the BBWAA. I believe it was 9 of them in 1982 that didn't think Hank Aaron was a first ballot hall of famer. :rolleyes:

I think the biggest test will be A-Rod.

If he gets in then .....................................

Pedro Martinez did it last year. I seen an interview with him shortly after being elected. He talked about doing PED's with Manny Ramirez before games. The interviewer was doing everything he could to change the subject ASAP. Then some how it was/has never been brought up again.

I'm in the same boat re: relievers. The save rule is so badly flawed that I will never consider it a real marker of greatness. As a Mets fan, I saw John Franco many years. Overall impression? Meh. Seemed to me that he was very impressive one out of every five appearance, middling in three, and lousy or flat out awful in 2. And in many of those 5 spots he got a save. Of he blew a lead and wasn't charged with anything as the game continued. Would never consider him to be a great player. He was a good player. Most of the time he did what he was asked to do. The only relief pitcher I watched regularly that I would say is hall of fame material was Mariano, and that's coming from a modern day Yankee hater. Never watched Hoffman enough but if you are going to throw number of saves in my face I'm unimpressed.

Funny the way that works. What' sad is Manny was a hundred times the hitter Fat Sloppy is and he'll get in no problem. The biggest mouth ever for someone who failed a drug test. Boston writers even trash that guy, yet he appears to be getting a free pass for god knows what reason.

I don't understand where they anti-bagwell sentiments come from. Of those on the ballot he ranked 4th for WAR7 behind Bonds, Clemens, and Schilling.

With WAR being a cumulative number (more years the higher it can go), I tend to look at WAR average for their playing. He ranks 3rd in this behind Bonds and Clemens.

Black Ink measures how much you lead in certain stats. His Black Ink is 24, this is a per year average of 1.6, 4th behind Bonds, Clemens, and IRod.

His Gray Ink, a stat to measure his top 10 performances is at 157 with his per year average ranking him 4th behind Bonds, Mussina, and IROD.

Considering there was no evidence of PED, just speculation based on size, he seems to be the only one worthy for the anti-ped voters.

Do you have a link? I don't recall Pedro ever admitting to doing PEDs ...

i have no issue with any of the 3 getting in - BUT

Pudge and baggs get in on 1st ballot and Vlad dosnt? lol

Pudge gets in and Bonds dosnt??? Um both on peds

why does Sheffield get no love? his numbers are sick, yea yea peds but others did too

seems its more of a popularity contest than a baseball skills club

I'm with Bagwell / Pudge, but against Raines. His first year of voting he got 24% and never got higher than 5th in MVP voting. He also never had 200 hits in a year, but had over 700 abs in 4 years. He played forever to get his 2800 hits and averaged only 163 hits per season. The last 13 years of his career he never received an MVP vote, never made an all-star team. He was good, but never great.

The Posada shunning makes no sense to me. I don't know if Posada is a HOFer but he deserved more than 17 votes and a one and done appearance on the ballot. Aside from Pudge and Piazza (one definite, one likely cheater) who was a better offensive catcher than Posada? Nobody.

Those guys don't measure up to Bagwell statistically.

I used to be in the group of PEDs = never even if only based on hunches like body type or acne. At this point, with Selig enshrined, I'd draw the line at actually caught cheating or admitted to cheating: McGwire, A-Rod, Palmiero, and especially Manny. How f'ing dumb was that guy to get caught twice. I am still on the fence re Bonds and Clemens. I think the evidence in the criminal trials was enough to convict them beyond a reasonable doubt, Bonds even moreso than Clemens. He is a smart man and only an absolute idiot would have believed that the Balco concoctions were vitamins and oils. He engaged in what Nixon used to call "plausible deniability". That said, he and Clemens were legit HOF caliber players without the PEDs, so I expect to see them in the HOF eventually.

As for Raines, he was unfortunate enough to play for mostly crappy teams and play in the shadow of the greatest leadoff man in history. If he had played in any other era he would have been considered the best leadoff guy in baseball, but there was Rickey. Most of his cumulative numbers are in the top 150 players of all time. 5th all time in SB, 38th all time in walks. His SB average was the best ever for anyone with 400+ SB. He had seven consecutive seasons over 70 SB. No one else has ever done that. His 162 game average was 102 runs scored. He wasn't a Rickey or a Ty or a Willie, but he clearly belongs among the top 200 players of all time. IMO that's HOF material.

Best I've seen probably, but I've read some crazy things about Lajoie.

No I don't and it seems like stuff like that has a weird way of disappearing. I did find this link but the actual video is also no longer available. The interview I seen was at the beginning of a sporting event and he was the guest. It was also in the time frame of him trying to peddle his book. In the interview I saw he also told the story of the Viagra crushed up in a drink but added there was another PED in it that Manny would bring back from the Dominican Republic.
http://www.cbssports.com/mlb/news/pe...s-with-viagra/

You are correct of course concerning the teams Raines played on, but in the twilight of his career he was still good enough to be a contributor to arguably one of the greatest teams of all time.

He was also really the only player who lost peak playing time due to the collusion of major league owners.

Yeah, and you'll probably be leading the cheering section when Rivera goes in 1st time / 1st ballot. Other than 50 more saves than Hoffman and being a Yankee vs a Pudre, what makes him more HOF worthy than Hoffy if you take away the saves? :confused:

This is a joke right? I hate the Yankees, but there is zero doubt that Rivera is heads and shoulders more worthy that Hoffman.

BTW, I think Hoffman should be in too.

Seriously? Have you looked at Rivera's numbers in the post season? Are you aware that he was as close to an automatic win as there has ever been in baseball? The guy threw one pitch. Every batter he ever faced knew it was coming. None of them could hit it. That's greatness.

How does Hoffy's post-season record match up to this?

http://www.beyondtheboxscore.com/201...ees-postseason

Bonds admitted under oath to doping. I don't see how you can be on the fence about Bonds and say no to McGwire when Bonds admitted to cheating.

I agree but would add that Posada may have been a better hitter than Pudge. He had a higher slugging average and was significantly higher in OBP, OPS and OPS+. Pudge had a higher BA and ran better but Posada walked a lot more and had more power.

The Expos teams Raines played for were actually pretty good. The problem was not bad teams but the fact that they were north of the border.

Not surprising, but glad to see they are getting some love. I remember buying many packs of 91 Stadium Club cards and was always thrilled whenever I pulled a Bagwell. One of my favorite players during that, and no mention/talk of PED's. :)
http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_prod...temCondition=4

You are missing a few points for some reason? :confused:
http://www.cbc.ca/radio/day6/episode...fame-1.3929035

I'll take Gil and Shil over all three of them!

Yep giant conspiracy to protect Pedro. Of course you have no link.

Why would I have a link to a interview I seen on live TV when Pedro was trying to sell a book?

Always found his nickname "Rock" to be funny in regards to this lol. Glad to see him get in though. Well deserved for an underrated player.

I hate to nitpick (well, OK really I love to), but this statement is the complete opposite of reality. Throughout his career he was almost always on winning teams.

He spent the first 12 seasons of his career with the Expos (1979 to 1990), during which time the team only had two seasons with losing records (1984 and 1986, and even then they were close to 500). While they only made the playoffs once in that time frame they were constant contenders and had a lot of 2nd place finishes - they were arguably one of the best teams in the NL throughout the 80s (though they didn't get much attention for it), hardly a "crappy" team.

Then he spent the next 5 seasons with the White Sox, in 4 of which the Sox had winning seasons including 2 first place finishes.

Then three seasons with the Yankees, in every one of which they made the playoffs and in two of which they won the World Series.

Then he had two more part time seasons with a few teams, some of which were crappy, but are hardly significant parts of his career.

Really he played most of his career for great teams, but for various reasons he was either a big fish in a little pond (his Expos years) or a little fish in a big pond (his Yankees days) so he didn't get the spotlight much.

+1

You are missing a few points for some reason? :confused:
http://www.cbc.ca/radio/day6/episode...fame-1.3929035[/QUOTE]


I'm missing that he had over 800 stolen bases? 2,600 hits for a 24 year career is far from impressive. Bill Buckner had more hits in less years, is he a hall of famer? One category (SB's) shouldn't be the main reason to get someone in the hall. Kenny Lofton led the lead in sbs the same amount as Raines and had a higher career batting average, should he be in? Raines was above average, not great

I'm missing that he had over 800 stolen bases? 2,600 hits for a 24 year career is far from impressive. Bill Buckner had more hits in less years, is he a hall of famer? One category (SB's) shouldn't be the main reason to get someone in the hall. Kenny Lofton led the lead in sbs the same amount as Raines and had a higher career batting average, should he be in? Raines was above average, not great[/QUOTE]

He walked a lot. That is somehow supposed to make up for him not being a great hitter. 135th in OBP right between Earl Torgeson and Tim Salmon, two great players. He wasn't a good defensive player. He was fast and stole a lot of bases. Let's start a campaign to elect Eddie Yost and Darrell Evans to the hof.

I agree with this. He was pretty good, but not a HOF player in my opinion. Baseball-Reference also has him as below average HOF in every statistical category (black ink, grey ink, HOF standards, etc.).

The system is set up in a way that allows for B and C tier HOFers. Ten years on the ballot is absurd. For a truly elite HOF it would be one year.....One chance.....In or out.

I can't believe Raines got in. We all saw him play his entire career. While he was on the field, did anyone ever think, "He's a sure Hall of Famer"???? No frickin' way. Like others have said, he was a decent player who stole bases, but far from a 'great.'

It does have a lot of flaws, but to say the elite are the ones voted in one year would be a mistake.

Joe DiMaggio - Got 0.4% his first year in 1945, got put back on in 1953 but received only 44.3%, he didn't get in until 1955.

Cy Young - On 1936 BBWAA and Veterans and received 49.1 and 41.7% respectively. Got in on the 1937 ballot with 76.1%

Rogers Hornsby - First ballot was 1936, didn't make it until 1942 with 78.1%

I think one of the best that had to wait the longest was Arky Vaughan. Some rank him as the second best SS of all time behind Wagner. Jay Jaffe has him ranked at 58th in his 2014 JAWS 75 FOR 75: RANKING THE HALL OF FAME'S TOP PLAYERS. He won a slash line triple crown (BA/OBP/SLG). He started on the ballot in 1953 with 0.4% and didn't get in until 1985. He may have been hurt by a three year retirement at the age of 32 until his return at age 35 in protest to playing for Leo Durocher.

Schilling is a Hall of Fame player is every way (core stats, WAR, and big time performances). The sportswriters who did not vote for him because they don't like him personally are abusing the huge power they have been granted.

He walked a lot. That is somehow supposed to make up for him not being a great hitter. 135th in OBP right between Earl Torgeson and Tim Salmon, two great players. He wasn't a good defensive player. He was fast and stole a lot of bases. Let's start a campaign to elect Eddie Yost and Darrell Evans to the hof.[/QUOTE]

agree

Perhaps, though I'd recommend reading the article I linked in post #13. All Here's a line from it:

"Until 1946, BBWAA members could vote for literally any player -- living or dead, active or retired."

All three of your examples fall before 1946. There literally was no ballot or set criteria, which is why voting was so wonky and all over the place. If you give a few hundred writers each a limited number of votes, and tell them they can vote for any player who ever played (or is still playing), the chances of any one player getting 75% are fairly nil.

Conor, my first inclination was to agree with your post. Certainly, for the last 30 years I do completely agree with you. There were a few who were 'almost great' during that period, like Sandberg, Jenkins and Hunter; however, the truly great all got in their first year.

Prior to that you have Marichal and Killebrew who didn't get in immediately, and I consider both to be great and HOF-worthy. But I wonder if there isn't currently a mentality among voters that they can put off voting for players because they have ten years - they don't have to start thinking hard until the 8 or 9 year mark. If it were reduced to 'now or never', Killebrew, Marichal and maybe even a few others, might have gotten in on the first ballot.

I would love to see a HOF that contained only the truly great players, but our sports mentality is 'the more the merrier', as such a philosophy can generally be linked to a result of 'more money'.

you old guys crack me up, the thing is, most voters don't use stats like batting avg anymore because they are kinda worthless and incomplete statistics that can create a false image of a player's ability.

How Raines compares with other LF'ers (where he played the majority of his career) all time :

14th in fWAR

2nd in stolen bases

1st in stolen base %

40th in OBP

Raines is perhaps the 2nd greatest base stealer and all around bade runner of all time. considering that he was also good at getting on base and an avg fielder his total production is pretty high.

He isn't an inner circle HOF'er,but he's in the same tier as Kirby Puckett, Tony Gwynn and Craig Biggio.

bolding mine:

yes I know from reading voter's articles that many leave guys off they know will stay on the ballot so as to use one of their 10 spots on a guy they want to either keep on for another year or try to get in. IMO all of this could be avoided if the HOF would change the process from "pick 10" to "give each player in the ballot a vote of yes or no"

I agree with you on the 'yes or no' idea. I'm curious whether the HOF would look much different as a result. It might affect Edgar Martinez, as some voters are realizing that currently popular new metrics make him look much better.

I know a HOF voter who I will ask about this, as he voted for 10 players this go-round.

the early years of HOF voting were also hurt because so many really great players were eligible and not in, so with a limit of 10(out of maybe 60 future HOF players) to choose from, a lot of guys kept getting left off ballots.

I think it would accomplish 2 things:

1- clear the logjam of players and thus make it easier for guys to get in earlier in the future

2- by requiring a response on each player it would avoid voters from pulling the dick move and leaving guys off because they think "he's not a first ballot HOF'er" so we wouldn't have the goofy travesties of guys like Maddux and Griffey Jr not being unanimous selections because one guy has some sort of beef.

DiMaggio was still playing in 1945. He had just retired in 1951, getting elected was faster than the now 5 year wait guys.

Rogers Hornsby was still active in 1936, playing his last game in 1937, elected 4 years after retirement.

No player has ever been elected while still an active player.

Cy Young wasn't elected because of confusion about the ballot. Voters weren't sure if he should be included with pre 1900 or post 1900 players.

Arky Vaughan is one of 3 players who in my opinion slipped through the cracks and had to be elected by the Veterans Committee. 300 game winner Eddie Plank and Johnny Mize with his OPS+ of 158, but low counting stats due to missing 3 years serving in WW2 are the others. I think Vaughan's tragic death in 1952 before he was even on the ballot also hurt his case.

HOF's and voting are highly subjective. Bagwell should have gotten in sooner, but, at least he's in. Rodriguez looks like a first ballot HOF'er, and became one. My only gripe with Ivan has to do with Mike Piazza. Who also should have been a first ballot HOF'er. One could craft an easy narrative that Piazza's wait led to Ivan's first ballot induction.

Raines, well, I can see both sides. I like to use traditional and advanced stats. I think it's the best way to go about things. Of course this also means I don't find batting average(or RBI for that matter) to be worthless stats, or only having worth within context. To me that's a false narrative.
But anyway, I use advanced and traditional and my own noggin, and don't condescend or take pot shots at those who use primarily one set. That's counter productive. I would not have voted for him myself, there are far too many superior players on the ballot to Raines, in my opinion. Tim didn't measure up by any standard to Rickey Henderson, that's obvious, but who does. The main name thrown up when Tim's name is mentioned. Rickey is an inner circle HOF'er. There's a wide gap between the two, and something of a false equivalency. As a Yankee fan I enjoyed Tim's time with the Yanks, and he was a key contributor in limited spots for the 96 and 98 World Series winners. There are worse players in the Hall than Raines, there are better players not in. I can understand some, not all, of the arguments for Tim's induction. Just wouldn't have advocated for it myself, nor voted for him after a lot of thought.

Hof
 

It would be fun for someone to open up a museum down the street from the Hall with Pete Rose, Barry Bonds and Shoeless Joe Jackson in there. They could put in Bill Dahlen, Hal Chase, Roger Maris etc..

As a kid, Fred Lynn was my favorite player. He is in the Red Sox HOF and that's where I would put Raines, Bagwell and Pudge, in the Expos, Astros and Rangers HOF. Up there with Cesar Cedeno, Bob Watson, Jose Cruz, Terry Puhl and JR Richard.

What makes him more worthy? Seriously?

One guy's ERA+ was 205. The other's was 141.

One guy had 11 seasons with an ERA under 2.00. The other had 2.

One guy is the best reliever in postseason history (0.70 ERA in 141 IP). The other guy was below average for a reliever (3.46 ERA).


I have an extremely high standard for closers to be in the HOF. Because they pitch so little - sometimes as little as 50 innings - they had better be incredibly dominant in those innings to be worthy of the Hall. Rivera was. Hoffman wasn't. If we're looking for an NL reliever from Hoffman's time to put in the Hall, look at Billy Wagner. He was a LOT better.

Put me also in the camp wondering why Raines got in. To me, nothing about his career screams "great". He had a nice, long productive career but great?

OBP? 135th all-time.

2600 hits in 23 seasons - 110 a year. Not great.

No power.

Career OPS+ of 123. Not great.

Terrible defense even by the low standards of LF.

How many great seasons did he have? 3? Maybe less. His best season was 1987 when he hit .330 with 18 HRs and an OPS of .955, 6th in the NL.

Honestly, his whole case is "he stole a lot of bases!" He finished with 808, 5th all-time. And that's nice and all - except we know that stolen bases aren't all that important.

So what are we left with? A terrible defensive LF who stole a lot of bases, got on base at a decent (but not great) rate and had little power.

That sure doesn't sound like a HOFer to me.

[QUOTE=Tabe;1622636]What makes him more worthy? Seriously?

One guy's ERA+ was 205. The other's was 141.

One guy had 11 seasons with an ERA under 2.00. The other had 2.

One guy is the best reliever in postseason history (0.70 ERA in 141 IP). The other guy was below average for a reliever (3.46 ERA).

Yeah, seriously! Hoffy is like Lee Smith, who killed it for bad ball clubs ending with 478 saves. Doesn't get a sniff for HOF. Like Smith, Hoffy killed it for lousy Pudres teams - minus the '98 WS - with, like Smith, a bunch of scrubs supporting him. That makes what Hoffy and Smith accomplished as remarkable as Rivera and all his WS stuff with much better support than Hoffy or Smith ever had.

I'm glad Raines got in.

Kind of surprised with Bagwell and Pudge with their PED suspicions.

I remember Bagwell shrinking considerably after his injury that caused him to retire.

There is no doubt the HOF is flawed, but just look at the differences of opinions in this thread alone.

I, for one have griped about them and the fact so many greats have been left out (Minoso) and so many undeserving's have made it in, but where do you draw the line who makes and who doesn't?

I know Raines' numbers don't scream a shoe-in, but if there are worse players in the hall, how do you leave him, and other's out?

If we all had to pick 3-5 players who should be in and 3-5 who shouldn't, we'd all come up with different players.

There is a commercial stating more people have walked on the moon than scored against Rivera in the post-season lol.