AH (PWCC) Reality Check Please
 

I've alluded to this in prior threads and would now like a reality check from others, as my communications with the auction house owner have proved considerably less than satisfying.

For the first time ever I consigned a batch of 20 cards to an auction house. PWCC. Pursuant to VCP, from most recent sales the cards I consigned had a value of about $10,000. My total sales collected? $5,200.

The issue? My auctions closed at about 11 pm on Tuesday, Election Day. I think it was truly horrific business judgment to have an auction close that night. (No, I had no clue when I consigned them that the auction was closing that night.)

Am I being out of line in suggesting that this was an awful decision? Seriously, how many people were shopping for baseball cards as the Florida and Michigan results were dripping in. If you disagree and think I'm an ass, just say as much. Broadway theaters closed Tuesday night for a reason. I told them ahead of time this was a poor decision and unfortunately I was apparently vindicated.

Thoughts?

Steve that does really suck for you. Yes I also think it was a horrible decision to end on election day. Not sure why they would do something that also cost them a lot of $.

Terrible timing indeed... but I believe Pwcc auctions are clearly listed as to their start dates... and with this you can figure the end dates.

Yeah, not the closing time I'd have chosen.

I've bought a few things that had similarly bad closing times. One closed at 8AM Easter morning.

I'm not sure you'll be able to get anything though. Which pretty much sucks.

Steve B

Closing Time
 

What's ironic is that they think it out enough to (usually) avoid Friday and Saturday auction closes for that same reason - typically bad days, lower traffic, distracted, weekend evenings, etc

My auctions closed from about 11pm to 11:25 that night. It was just surreal.

In oh so many ways!

Yes, This.

I had a $5k+ card sell on a Wednesday night at 1am est. Needless to say it didn't sell strong. I wasn't happy.

i agree not the brightest idea ... even NCIS did air on election night :D

Agree Steve... I'd be pi$$ed too. That's a bit of a no brainer as to when to extrapolate them out to a closing date. And as you're consigning them, asking "Will my items be closing in the evening of the Federal Election?" would not be a question I would have thought of.

All we ever hear is how PWCC gets record prices; following them, it's somewhat selective.

It might have brought lower prices but most people, myself included, still snipe. So when I see a card I really want I snipe it. Very rarely do I bid at the end anymore.

I agree with Leon, I snipe 90% of the time.

I recall they also had a prewar auction ending during the Superbowl earlier this year also. Maybe not exactly the same, but I did find it odd (and annoying as a bidder), and prices didn't seem as strong as they could have been. Doesn't seem to be a lot of foresight into the ending dates/times. I would certainly be frustrated as a consignor.

I don't think sniping programs can realistically help with this from the consignors' perspective because I think the percentage of eBay bidders who use them is probably still pretty small. Also, they can be tough to use during PWCC auctions because you can end up winning a bunch of items within a matter of seconds, which can be a problem from a budgeting perspective. I've used snipe programs a few times, but rarely during those types of constantly-ending auctions. If there were a program that let you cancel all remaining snipes once you hit a certain budget, then maybe...

.

Look at other high value cards that closed in the same time period, and see if they were affected too.

dup

i also have finding that many cards are just selling for less in general then they were a few month ago. Combine that with other circumstances like the election than thats a double down on potential sale price of less than hoped for.

However as leon said, you really only have snipers at the end of auctions...i put in my bids early (i say 3 hours before an auction ending is early to me) and the last second bids are snipers anyway that put their bids in already. However just losing out on one potential bidder is real $.

Yeah I imagine folks who bought a lot at the peak during the frenzy earlier this year may be a little regretful. A very nicely centered SGC 60 52T Mantle (and nice otherwise, a little tilt) just sold for 41K in Mile High, that seems well off the highs for 311s.

Well, I've never used a sniping service and I doubt I am the only
one.

I have never sniped. I always bid early and put another bid in at the end.

The market continues to correct, just see Mile High's results, and election night did not help but I am sure there is someone else out there saying, "Auction ended 10:30 pm Wednesday night and the card arrives in my mailbox across the country on Saturday morning. Unreal. Best customer service in the business."

Thats good for the buyers to get good prices and fast delivery. As a consignor i would wait 3 months for my check if it meant i made money instead of getting a consignor check in a week on a net loss.

Apparently Brent at PWCC is the sole person who can't grasp why ending auctions at 11pm as the most dramatic presidential election in our lifetimes unfolded (with undoubtedly the live largest television audience of any event in our nation's history) was a lousy idea that hurt his consigners. Oh well. Live and learn.

I know i expected the outcome to be known early on the election like all the pollsters....the outcome was certainly a surprise.

I have now stayed up past my bedtime for game 7 of the world series and the election..

It's my habit to wait as long as possible before putting in a bid - I always thought THAT was sniping.

Could someone please explain to this dumb guy exactly what sniping is?


Thanks,
Raymond

By the way, if enough folks who have had scheduling issues with PWCC contact them with that issue, would they be open to changing that practice?

As devil's advocate, I would think that it may just be the 'luck of the draw' i.e. if they schedule 'round the clock, someone has to get the bad slots. IMO

p

I manually snipe the same way you do. Most use a company to snipe for them and that is what most refer to as sniping.

Raymond: sniping is using a service to execute a bid for you via computer program during the last few seconds of an auction. It avoids having a shill bidder eat away at a high bid you leave early and frees you from sitting on an auction close. It can save you a lot of money.

Straight auctions on ebay generally succeed when the consignor shills his own auctions, the AH has employees who shill the auctions, or both.

I feel for you Steve, but it's a lesson all honest consignors have to learn once. Certainly the market price changes and the election night ending made it a triple-whammy for you (those two, plus your being honest).

Yeah, the timing wasn't great, but I was bidding in that auction and nothing that I wanted went for a bargain. I'm only talking about T206s, but the bidding seemed to be as strong as it normally is. I went big on a couple cards I really wanted and was surprised to be the under-bidder.

RunScott - thanks. I'm willing to let this thread die, having said what I needed to get off my chest, but I just wanted to add that I discovered your eBay store a month or so ago and you have extremely interesting, cool stuff. If anyone on the board hasn't checked it out and followed it you are making a huge mistake. Lots of stores are the S.O.S. Your store is really cool.
Steve

https://www.gavelsnipe.com/log-in.php?ref=%2Fsnipe.php

Works Wit Ebay & Heritage...
" & It's Free Ray!"

I have never consigned to an eBay auction house, such as PWCC. But, from time to time, I have consigned items to catalog-internet auction houses as well as internet-only auction houses, and here is what I have learned from my experience in my efforts to better my return:

- There is no reason for me to pay a seller's commission in this day and age.
- If I feel my item is worth a 1/2 page exposure in the glossy auction catalog, I discuss this with the auction house, as I don't want a surprise later when my item only got a 1/5 page of catalog coverage.
- I make sure to confirm which auction my item will appear in. A month ago, I consigned an item to an auction house that had a catalog auction that ended very recently. At the time I consigned, I was told that my item could make it into this auction that just ended. I declined this, preferring to wait until their next catalog auction, because I knew that my item would either (1) appear in the last-minute-additions section at the end of the catalog, or (2) be included with the internet-only items that are not pictured in the catalog. IMHO, such inclusions are not going to maximize my return.
- I sometimes specify, or at least suggest, the starting bids for my items. If I am consigning a $1,000 item, I feel that a starting bid of $250 will imply that it is worth more than a staring bid of $100 will. I feel more strongly about this when I am consigning an obscure, low-demand item.
- I note on the consignment form info that I feel is very relevant and should be included in the catalog description of my item - e.g., rookie card, 1 of 2 graded, third highest graded, scarce type 3 back variation, scarce color variation, toughest common in the set, etc. Auction houses are not always aware of these nuances, and some auction houses don't do as much research as others.
Val

PWCC just lists items on Ebay. They do nothing special for you as a seller, and charge you more money on certain items than if you just listed it and shipped it yourself.

To think they reach more people listing their items in the exact same place and location as you, is absurd. People should only be using them if they are to lazy to list and ship their own items or you are willing to hire someone to do it for you, for whatever reason.

I have never seen any proof that their items generate more money for you as the seller. Not every card is created equal. Most of the time if a card brings more money...it was a nicer card than other ones in the same grade.

This is incorrect. They get a ton of eyes on their auctions. You very rarely see anything falling through the cracks for crazy cheap price because so many people are watching the auction as items are ending. If I list 10 items to end on a Tuesday night, I guarantee you there are not hundreds of people watching my listings end. They have created a brand that people are loyal to. I very rarely find a bargain via PWCC but I find them elsewhere all the time.

They sell lots of items at regular list price or under every auction. Some go for more and some go for less. Just like any sale result you will find with your own listings.

That is manifestly ridiculous. On major cards they blow away everyone except a few other regular and well-known ebay sellers. One can speculate as to the reasons why, and there has been plenty of discussion, but a tour of VCP confirms it without question.

That's lousy. While it's fair to say there is a "seller beware" aspect to what happened, I agree that PWCC - which I think is a well run business - could have been more mindful and avoided clashing with a truly unique event.
I could easily see the same thing happening to me as a seller and I'm sure I wouldn't be pleased.

I had a card sell for peanuts because Ebay had a "glitch" and no one was able to access the auctions and see the items, much less place a bid. I lost a bit, shipped the card and moved on. The winning buyer flipped it for a tidy profit. Comes with the territory. Just forget about it and move on.

There are auction prices all over the place that do not get recorded in VCP, and private sales.

You are entitled to that opinion. I can respect that.

You were comparing PWCC to the option of listing and shipping yourself so VCP is certainly the relevant measure. There have been probably hundreds of threads or posts noting PWCC prices setting world records and just generally being extremely high. Sure, they don't set records on every card, but that doesn't negate the point.

I know you don't snipe, but I would guess over 70% of the bidders on your card are snipping.

As for having it end during the election, PWCC does give you a forecast when your auction will occur, and their client portal has that information. I also believe there is a window where you can make changes/comments on your listing.

Not saying it's right to hold the auction on that particular time, but it's a slippery slope to start picking which world events need to be blacked-out by PWCC for bidding. The inauguration? When Trump guts Obamacare? When Trump launches warheads into Syria? When Hillary's supporters river of tears flood California?

You state that they get big dollars for prime time cards. I didn't qualify what I said. You qualified your statement to what I said to prove that I am wrong, instead of proving it wrong in the fashion it was made. I didn't state anything about dollars. I said they don't get any more people to view their auctions than if I listed it myself. There is no VCP for number of views. Your entire argument is bunk.

Here is one fact: you would be unable to determine what a card would sell for had you sold in the same manner but yourself, compared to what they will sell it for in identical fashion since you can't list the same card 2 times at the same time, and selling one after the other would potentially eliminate competition on the card.

Do you regularly buy a big card on ebay then consign it to PWCC for them to relist it back on ebay because the margins are so much bigger? No. Of course not. I suppose there will be no changing your opinion and I do not have any intention to do so. Again, you are entitled to it, but to say what I said is "manifestly" ridiculous is...well ridiculous.

Then how do you explain the incredible numbers of cards consigned to PWCC by dealers and collectors across the hobby, surely it isn't just laziness, or stupidity? I would say it's expectation of a higher return borne out by experience.

And I would bet anything far more people view PWCC auctions then would view my auctions if we both listed a substantially identical set of cards. They do reach more people, it is not at all "absurd" to think so.

++ PWCC gets more eyeballs by big hitters than any AH, iMO. Other than REA, who only shows twice a year, PWCC is clearly getting the attention.

This is clearly false though.

Again. I disagree. I am entitled to my opinion, which is based of actual experience of getting equal or less dollars by consigning with them.

Also, I don't know that it is clearly false. There is no proof that is the case. What you state is an opinion unless you have proof, that their reach is higher. If I am not mistaken you sell on Ebay. How come you don't consign if they clearly bring higher dollars.

No more speculation around why I may be incorrect is needed.

Yeah, I guess I can't prove it, so it isn't "clearly false". My language was a little strong, sorry about that. It just seems like common sense though. They create a huge auction event and get a ton of bids. It would be shocking and make no logical sense if the same amount of people are looking at one of my listings (in my opinion).

I would imagine we could look at their "page views" and compare them to a small-time dealer and see a large disparity. I'm not great with computers though, so I don't know how to do that or if it's possible.

Fair question about why I don't typically send items to auction. For one thing, I don't think they get the highest prices across the board. I think they get retail prices or very close, on average. Some small percentage of things go well below retail and a similar percentage set new record highs. Secondly, I like to have full control over the exact price I'll realize when something sells. I hate the feeling of selling something at auction and seeing it go super cheap, which is always a possibility when you send something to auction.

I will caveat it before you argue back and say that not all cards are created equal which is part of my argument, but still, here is a "big card" selling 1 to 2 weeks apart. It took me a few seconds to find it. I am sure I can find a lot more just like it.

http://www.milehighcardco.com/1909_1...-lot45542.aspx


http://www.ebay.com/itm/1909-11-T206...p2047675.l2557

Thanks guys. Glad to know I am not losing my mind. Brent seems to have no idea what I'm possibly talking about. I guess some people can't say "gee sorry ....maybe we did fk that up." Lots of other places to deal with. As others pointed out, while they may provide a level of convenience, it ain't like they are marketing your cards for you. They do nothing more or less than what anyone else does listing cards on eBay. We can debate exactly how many more or less eyeballs they get, they are nothing more than a posting and mailing service.
I received a card from the same auction today, and a fairly pricey one, and it will certainly be the last one I buy from them. Who knows, maybe that seller got reemed too and I made out.

Don't know much about this issue, but these aren't the same card. One's a Piedmont and one's a Caporal.

Just a posting and mailing service? Do you not see their banner ads above this thread? I bet they spend more on digital marketing than any other AH except Heritage.

WaJo example: One is also very well centered, and one is not.

Sniping services cost money to use and I only use them if the item I want is above a certain amount. Other items I put in my high bid and let it ride.

I guess I'm more on the lazy side where I'd rather have an EBay auction company like PWCC sell my consignments. I'd rather send them a box of cards that they can open up, take the picture, give it a title, a quick description, answer any questions about it during the auction, collect the money from the buyer, package the item, ship the item, leave feedback, pay the eBay fees, pay the PayPal fees, and then pocket roughly 2 to 5 percent for their effort. I'm OK with that.

I've consigned to PWCC at the National this year for my first time. Earlier in the year I won nice looking Pafko 52 Topps from another auction company. I had roughly 430.00 in the card and it sold in PWCC for around 150.00. Plus, it got left out of their bigger auction and after I reminded them about it, I was told that they wanted to run it later to make it stick out more. I guess that made sense somewhat, so I let them do it.

I've also won items from PWCC where there were mass bid retractions which left me the high bidder from my bid days earlier. I will say that Brent gave me the option to back out or take the card. I took the card.

My hunch is PWCC most likely didn't look at the close date, because most years November 8 is just another night. I think if any of the consignors notified PWCC and alerted them that they didn't want their consignments ending on Election night that they would pull it and run the next cycle.

They don't have to. JustSnipe has free options, for example.

Wrong.

www.gavelsnipe.com
have used it for probably 10+ yrs and always free and rarely fails.

And whoever says PWCC is only a mail and ship company, I guess you haven't seen their dedicated banner and also large banners on this board. ALL of our advertisers are appreciated but They (PWCC) spend far more than others do advertising here. They get attention through advertising, go figure.

Exactly my caveat and my point.

Exactly why you can't really compare any card with any other card or look at VCP and make a blanket comparison to say that they always get top dollar for a grade, or that they get more reach and more bids when that information is not made available to the public, or that you would get more money by consigning to them rather than selling it yourself.

My best guess on why people pay more for a card on PWCC, when it does happens, than any where else is the auction closes immediately at a point in time. 2 people put in high numbers hoping to 'buy' the card at the last second and end up paying for the card out of their poopers. Not that they really would have paid that much in another auction style, or that they really want to pay that much for that item.

PWCC has more followers on ebay than most others..It is highly unlikely you snag an item off a PWCC auction that is "a deal", you likely paid "market price" at the time...What a person "thinks" their item is worth and what a buyer is willing to pay are always the topic of conversation when it comes to collectables. PWCC usually has quite a few eyes focused on their items, when at auction, I think the closing time is irrelevant, if someone wants your item they will pay for it.

Not true at all. I don't care who you are. If you are selling items when no one is watching, they aren't going to bring high prices. Period.

I was chatting about this thread with a fellow board member (NOT LEON) yesterday and his question was:

If you saw when the auction opened it would close on Election Day, why did you not contact PWCC to have the auction killed so it would close at a better time? Is that something possible in your contract with PWCC?

Thanks!
Rich

This. I would have been on the horn immediately. And if it didn't dawn on you until later, it's possible it didn't dawn on Brent, either.

Pdfbow
 

I too have have noticed that card prices have been down the past coupla months (as was mentioned earlier in this thread)...
I also use a bid snipe service and really pay no attention to the closing date of an auction

As soon as I realized this was the case I emailed Brent and told him I was concerned about this. My email and his response below:

On Nov 7, 2016, at 6:53 AM, steven napolitano <stevenfnapolitano@gmail.com> wrote:

> I wish I had realized last month when I consigned these cards that my auctions were ending on election night at 10pm when everyone's going to be glued to their TV screens. Awful timing.
>
> Steve


On Mon, Nov 7, 2016 at 1:50 PM, PWCC <brent@pwccauctions.com> wrote:

Probably a really good time to have items closing. As you say, everyone will be home and doing very little.

Brent
-Sent from mobile

So far, you have proved the point, you noticed this the day before Election Day and yes many people did believe there was a foregone conclusion who would win (it turned out to be incorrect) and win early in the evening.

But I agree with Brent on one part of this, if you don't notice the closing date and its significance until the day before it closes, than just hope a lot of people are home with nothing to do.

Regards
Rich

Ah, yeah. That's on him.

Regardless of who won the election, about 50% of the American population was going to enraged with frothing mouths, and 50% of them were going to be high fiving each other and popping champagne, and something very close to 100% of them weren't on Bay looking at baseball cards.

In this device generation people multitask -- not that hard to look at ebay on your smartphone or tablet while watching the election. Again, have you looked at other cards closing around the same time to see if there was a pattern of low prices realized?

NO ONE Is arguing that fact.

Again, no one is disputing Presidential Election Day is probably not the best day to end an auction. What we are noting is: YOU could have noticed the closing date when the auction began not with only one day to go. That's why it's a slight difference of opinion.

Rich

No matter how you feel about PWCC, good, bad or indifferent, I think it is clear they have captured market share from traditional AH's and other Ebay auctioneers, such as Probstein.

++Well stated. Maybe OP can go to Oregon and protest? Portland is not far from Lake Oswego. Blame someone else for why his card sold for below VCP.

Seems a little harsh to throw PWCC under the bus on the most reputable card forum in the universe, then retaliate with a "never doing business again". With customers like this, who needs enemies.

You are entitled to your opinion. You may have noticed that basically everyone else agree with me that this was a stupid business move.

I think Steve has a valid point in that the auctions should not have ended on election day. I think that was a mistake by PWCC. Again, PWCC has been in this business a long time, so perhaps they've ended auction on election days in the past, and it hasn't been a problem, but the fact that this election was so close probably moved a lot of folks from looking at ebay auctions to staring at their TV channels or surfing the internet to refresh election voting data. However, I think Brent's response was naïve. By that logic, you can also have major auctions end on Thanksgiving day because most folks are at home not doing much but stuffing themselves with turkey either.

Also, I don't think consignors like Steve could have predicted that their consignment would have ended on election day. I have seen PWCC move their auction start days a little before the auctions were supposed to begin. (Perhaps because they were running a bit behind on processing the incoming consignments or knew that a large consignment was about to arrive.) Of course, once they knew for certain that they didn't like the auction end date, perhaps they could have pushed for Brent to move the listings to the next auction.

Same thing for auctions that end past midnight EST. The problem is that PWCC has too many consignments. What was originally auctions ending over 1-2 weeks is now going on 2-3. I knew that there was something thread where Brent asked different forums what they advise he should do in these cases. Basically, they are trying to space auction close times about a minute apart. However, with so many consignments, they can't all fit in the "sweet spot" for auction close endings. It's similar on Sundays where many auctions end at before 5pm EST. Many consignors have also complained about those ending times.

With consigning items to auction, it is always a roll of the dice. If you can consign the items to a non-ebay auction house, you can always try to specify a start price with the AH at which you could at least be okay with. Val put a tremendously helpful post in this thread (#32) on all of the things that consignors should do and think about. Finally, if you are only looking to sell your items at VCP and you don't have a lot to sell, you should just list it yourself via BIN on ebay at the VCP or a little above. Folks (including myself) use AH's because they are hoping that they will be able get a price significantly above VCP. However with auctions, it is always a roll of the dice. You never know if the folks who want to buy your item are actually looking at your auction.

Finally, on election day, I bid on 10 items (via snipe) on PWCC and I won two. I think I got a decent deal on one item but the other one was near my max bid. The ones I lost went above my max bid, which basically means it was near VCP or above. For example, I wanted the Tabacalera Babe Ruth / Lou Gehrig card that sold on election day in PWCC. This was the same card that Leon had during his auction from Heritage. I basically put a snipe out for the same price the card sold for at Heritage (~1800). However, it sold for a bit more, at $1885, even though it was election day. Therefore, you can say that PWCC still had a higher realized price than a major auction house, and the seller probably netted more because PWCC didn't have a 20% BP. Again, I'm sure Leon was still very happy with how Heritage handled his consignments as some sold for huge prices. However, the point is not all items that sold on election day laid an egg.

Leon,

I've always used auctionsniper.com and since I don't buy a lot through EBay, I have not shopped other auction sniper companies. I will look at using them in the future if free.

Brent, people were glued to their TV during the election night process. No matter who you voted for. Lisa was yelling at the TV and emotional roller coaster ride the entire night. The "champainge" bottles were opened after 3AM which by then all the PWCC auctions had closed.

Chris, did you ask Brent to stop your consignment listings? If yes ... you have a beef. If no, then you let it ride knowingly.

Their auction schedule was probably created at the beginning of the year for the entire year. And they basically run constantly throughout the year. Should they have changed it for the election? Possibly. What about the debates? The world series? Other big sporting events?

It is unfortunate your auctions didn't bring the desired result. I don't think it's unreasonable to think that having so many people home watching the election might actually help the auction. I get my ebay alerts on my phone and would have had no trouble putting in a snipe while watching the coverage.

Maybe they can end some auctions on Christmas Eve . See how that goes .

Hi everyone. I'm sorry to the OP for not doing better on his consignment - we promise to do a better job in the future.

It's true that we made the conscious decision to continue to have items close on November 8. If we had decided to skip election day, due to the size of Auction #9, it would have pushed later items to close on the day before Thanksgiving which we know is a travel day for many people.

We need to establish a baseline, because if we start to skip dates due to unique events that may distract bidding, there could be an endless list of days that we select to skip (sporting events, award shows, popular television events, etc.). For this reason, it is our practice to refrain from items closing only on major holidays and days associated with major holidays.

On a side note, I don't think anyone could have predicted the fervor with which the American people followed the election results.

My experience with PWCC has only been as a buyer: won a few at good prices while paid too much or just missed others (including one earlier tonight).


Isn't the bottom line question for this thread-

Do you net more money consigning on EBAY at 10% or through AHs at 20%?


I cannot believe that ANY individual Auction House has as much market exposure as EBAY.

Am I wrong?



pe

On a side note, I don't understand why someone would send items to a ebay "auction house". I truly never understood that. I can understand if you don't have the time to list, ship etc but, why on earth do people do this? It just doesn't register with me.


Nick

The turnaround time to get paid is much faster for ebay consignment shops. For example, PWCC has something like 11 auctions per year. Probstein is year round (e.g., they list immediately after they receive the items.) REA only has 2 auctions per year. They need a lead time to receive the items so that they can put it into their print catalog. Therefore even thought they pay out consigments lightning fast, if the items you want to sell don't align closely with their auction dates, you might need to wait around 6 months after you send your consignments to REA before you actually get paid. Other auction houses may have auctions much more frequently than REA, but then they often don't pay until 45 calendar days until after the auction close, and they still require a long lead time before their auction starts to get it into the catalog. Therefore, if you need to raise cash quickly, and want a consignment shop that typically has much lower fees than most auction houses, then ebay shops are often the best bet.

JC:

Steve did ask to stop the listings, the problem was he asked the day before the election instead of when the auction began. That is the issue I have with his complaint. By the time he got to November 7th the auction had been rolling for a while and I as the seller would not have cancelled said auction.

Now, if he had complained on the 1st day they were up then he would have a very valid point and everyone could have waited for the next auction

Rich

More cash, no work, and no dealing with the idiot eBay buyers is the main reasons. The idiot buyers are few and far between but really suck when you get one. I have no recent info, I do know a couple years ago you got a higher percentage of the final price from Brent or Rick because eBay was giving them huge discounts on their fees that they passed on to consignors.