Thoughts on Kaepernick & the national anthem
 

I had a argument last night with my neighbor about Kaepernick not standing for the national anthem. Just wanted to see everyone thoughts here. Maybe just a vote and no posts so we dont get too heated up! lol :eek:

He should remember all our service men and women, civilians who lost their lives for this COUNTRY and FLAG since our Independence so we can have our freedom today. We are not perfect, by any means but it only takes a few and the media to make it worse for all. Im glad he's not starting

114 million dollar arm. Ten cent head. And that was before all of this.

I wonder what his stance is regarding Chip's smoothies and sleep monitors.

I'm most offended that he thinks that I would give two sh*ts what he thinks.

He is engaging in core political speech 100% protected by the First Amendment and anyone who wants to punish him for it needs to go back to school and understand the freedoms that the song represents. He isn't disrespecting the people who defend this country. He is engaging in the activity they fight to protect. Our most precious freedom is the right to be an American Idiot. Voltaire said it best: I Disapprove of What You Say, But I Will Defend to the Death Your Right to Say It

He cares about social issues and seems willing to take a stand which is a hell of a lot more than can be said about most self-centered pampered athletes (and entertainers) just living in the four corners of their personal ego trips.

He's got a right to protest, and that's something we should see as important. While I don't totally agree with what he's saying, there's always room to improve things.

Part of me thinks it's a better thing than blocking highways or burning down the corner store, part of me thinks it's a bit of grandstanding empty gesture. If he donates a big chunk of money to his cause as he's said he will I think that might be more effective.

Steve B

He is using the platform available to him, and knows that something that makes people uncomfortable is going to capture attention. If he just went on Twitter and said I don't like what's happening in America it would have very little impact. I don't think it's an empty gesture, he certainly knows the possible consequences.

welll.......... that's not really true.

The constitution protects you from the tyranny of the govt in regards to speech. It does NOT protect you from consequences of your choices however.

The owner of the team has the right to decide that Kaepernick's choices are detrimental to the team and cut him accordingly. This would not be a free speech violation, merely a business decision.


my response to the poll:


I both think that if I were owner I'd cut him AND that he has the right to protest any way he sees fit. We all have the right to our opinion and to express it anyway we like as long as we don't harm others, but, that being said, we are all bound to face the consequences of the choices we make and are open to any and all criticism of our choices. Freedom of speech is not a free pass to avoid criticism or consequences, it is there to keep the govt from chucking us in jail because we think it sucks.

meh...this has been done before (Mahmoud Abdul-Rauf of the NBA, etc.) as an example, so while he's not necessarily a trailblazing sports/entertainment figure, it is what it is and makes interesting point/counterpoint discussion for those that want to engage in such things.

although I may have my own personal opinions, I'm not going to get further involved w/my commentary, as Adam's well-stated post on the (constitutionally-protected) aspects of this "protest" are dead-on accurate.

DS

It's his right to do it. While he's not free of consequences, he is, however, free to sit during the anthem. Even the NFL said that they encourage players to stand but that they don't require them.

Even if you disagree that he protested, it's tough to say he doesn't have the right to do so.

You can't please everyone and often important stances aren't the popular ones.

^^+1^^ This is my response to the poll also, combination of part of 1 & 2.

If everybody just fell in line with no problems at all, we wouldn't have change for the better. Just because I love my country doesn't mean I think it's without its flaws.

I oppose the action of burning the American flag, but I support someone's right to do it.

sure, it's legal for them to do it, but we are free to think they are scumbags for doing it (and their employer is free to fire them if they think their employee's actions are detrimental to their business)

I think Kaepernick made a mistake with the timing of his actions. If he had been a top notch player, owning the starting QB job and leading his team to the playoffs he would have a lot more leeway. BUT, when you have played poorly, complained about losing the starting job and then do something like this... well let's say it looks kinda like an attention grab.


Jimmy Johnson years ago was asked why a borderline player got released for falling asleep at a film meeting. He said that when you are on the cut line you need to be the first there, last to leave amd you need to keep your mouth shut and do your job the best you can. When the reporter replied "well, if it was Troy Aikman who fell asleep what would you do?" he said "I'd say , "Troy, wake up""

I'm not sure where I said the 49ers wouldn't be within their right to release him, but you're right about the double standard, though.

To disavow his actions is your right, but not standing for the anthem is also his.

nobody is arguing with it being his right (unless the NFL chooses to make it required) my beef is how so many people make wrong first amendment arguments in regards to criticism from others or punishment from his employer. (or they seem to think he has a right to his opinion but we don't have the right to think poorly of him because of said opinion, which by the way wouldn't be the case if a white guy said something that was deemed racist)

True, the First Amendment does not prevent a private enterprise from acting but firing an employee for engaging in an activity that is legal and not in violation of his contract terms would entitle him to sue for the guaranteed balance of his contract.. So, if the team wants to can him and pay his contract they are free to so; he will catch on with another team at the league minimum and potentially be paid to beat the old team.

The argument also misses my point: the activity in question is protected by the specific right that allows the self-righteous to hate on Kaepernick in the first place. Americans don't fight for the right to stand up shut up and conform. Never have. Never will. Absolute ideological conformity is the province of religion and dictatorship. The nazis were very good at getting everyone to shut up and toe the line. Didn't work out so well.

Legalities aside firing him would be an unbelievably stupid maneuver. The league is 80%+ black. Management sending a message that they will tolerate all manner of behavior except black political speech would cripple the team's ability to recruit and sign free agents. Given the team location and market I suspect it would also offend more of the team's fan base than it would appease.

well since others posted comments - i guess ill post too

I wish this fool was on the giants - as a life long giant fan i know how they do business - i dont think ownership would stand for him not standing. i think he would be cut immediately. If LT was still on the team he kick his but in the locker room. Interesting images of SF & NYG teams "standing for our country"



Attachment 244248


I wish he was playing the NYG in giant stadium on sunday sept 11 - since the 49ers arent playing on sunday sept 11 i think its a stroke of luck for him, it wouldn't go over well - maybe he should move to syria and see if he can play a game and be a millionaire there. Sure its his AMERICAN right to be an idiot 100% & its everyone else's right to bash him for it.

I voted number 1. I think he is pathetic. He should be protesting the parents of the blacks who haven't obeyed police officers, were criminals and got killed because of their own actions. That is what he should be protesting.

LT
 

Given LT's track record with the law, I would much prefer Kaepernick.

This from an article (two days ago) on LT's latest brush with the law, a drunk driving arrest.

It’s hardly Taylor’s first mugshot. He fell asleep at the wheel on the Garden State Parkway in 1989, failing a breathalyzer test but beating the resulting DUI charges two months later.

Subsequent arrests were for misdemeanor property damage in Honolulu, trying to buy crack cocaine in Florida and South Carolina, falsifying his 1990 income tax returns and failing to pay child support. In 2009 he was arrested for patronizing a 16-year-old prostitute in a Ramapo, New York hotel, ultimately receiving a no-jail sentence after insisting he had no idea of her age. “I don’t card prostitutes,” he later said.

The President has weighed in.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2016...community.html

Those who disagree with Kaepernick's actions are self-righteous? And hate him too? Why do you have to demonize them that way just because your opinion differs? You must have read Saul Alinsky's book, Rules for Radicals, right?

There definitely is a division among military, at least. Some veterans support him, others don't.

So you're saying there's absolutely no difference in the way police (or anyone for that matter) treat white people and, as you so eloquently put it, "the blacks"?

Stick your full name out here and you can continue this debate. thanks...and yes, just as I am white (caucasion but "white" is fine) there are some folks who are black, it's only derogatory if you say it in such a manner. He has a right to do and feel how he wants to just as I do. I actually don't have a problem with his act of doing it but I feel the way I do about it. I hope that makes sense.
Again, I will be happy to continue the discussion with you after you put your name out here...nothing personal at all....

Name fixed. Didn't realize that was such a big deal...

Also, no offense, but since you're white your opinion on whether or not "the blacks" is offensive doesn't matter. You don't get a vote as to the offensiveness of terms that don't apply to you. For example, I don't personally find the name "Redskins" offensive, but since I'm not a Native American, my opinion on the matter means nothing. It's easy to not be offended when you're not a part of the group that is being offended.

All that aside, since it's not really the point, black people continue to face unfair oppression from people in positions of authority, and that was the entire point of Kap's protest. To say the people who were abused by police are at fault because they didn't act a certain way is patently false and a willful blind eye to the fact that racism exists. Obviously I'm not saying this is the case 100% of the time as nothing in life is so easily categorized, but comments like yours, whether it was your intention or not, only help perpetuate the myth that racism is a thing of the past.

Wow! :eek:

What a double standard!?! By that reasoning, since you're not black, you don't get an opinion of whether or not there's a difference in the way police treat white people or black people. Nor do you get any opinion on racism. If Leon doesn't get any vote as to the offensiveness of terms that doesn't apply to him, why do you get a vote about oppression or racism if they don't apply to you???

:rolleyes:

Thanks for putting your name out here. It isn't a big deal but is an important part of our forum, hence the rule in bold letters at the top of every page...though this isn't exactly that, it is the reasoning behind it. (simple accountability)

There is no doubt that racism does exist today. Anyone who doesn't think so is not being honest with themselves. That being said there are more opportunities for everyone today than there ever has been. It is hard to deny that by looking at the President, AG, Supreme Court etc.. etc.....
However, I firmly believe parenting is the biggest issue facing our nation today. If it could be taught and taught and taught it might make a lot of the problems go away.
And if you feel the criminals who got shot by not obeying an officer's command, were only shot because of their color...and not because they disobeyed a command, then that is part of the problem, to me. Let's debate why they were being criminals? (*see my parenting point)

I can guarantee if I didn't obey cops in the past I very well might have ended up dead too. Just as anyone of any color would.

And there is no doubt that it works both ways...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m5S2E26BWoo

1000%...the video is not there for me but my thousand percent is I agree it goes both ways...

Fixed link to video.

Of course that is crazy but there are probably some low life white people teaching their kids the same thing.. I didn't' say parenting was a white or black thing....but it's the biggest thing. We need to teach parenting so kids won't grow up as criminals and can make good choices in life.

Absolutely agreed, Leon. The only reason I posted that is because there some people that think white people can't be discriminated against simply because they're white.

I never said that. But yeah, I'm sure white males have it just as bad as any minority in a country founded by rich, slave-owning white guys. :rolleyes:

As to your comment about a double-standard, acknowledging racism exists in the world isn't an opinion, that's an unfortunate fact. Saying "It's OK to say [insert whatever colloquialism here] because it's not racist" is an opinion. That's the difference. All I'm saying is I hear a lot of people who aren't in the group that's being offended telling other people what they think is offensive and what isn't. Their God-given right to HAVE an opinion doesn't make their opinion valid. If you're trying to decide between the chicken or the fish, are you going to ask a vegan?

Leon, I can totally agree on your point about parenting but I don't think that's actually the debate here. I don't necessarily agree that there are more opportunities in the overall, simply because a few high-ranking positions are occupied by people of color. Sure, those are very powerful positions, but they are still outliers. Look into the general populace of any city in America and tell me opportunities exist equally. Look into the comparison of sentencing to the crime committed between white people and black people and tell me there's equality there. That's what Kaepernick's protest was about. Not the military, not a flag, the idea that equality doesn't exist in the vast majority of this country. Him having millions of dollars doesn't negate his right to empathize with a cause, because he too is an outlier. Brock Turner serves 3 months for raping a girl and there are black men in jail for longer than that for having a small amount of marijuana. If Brock Turner was black do you think he'd be free right now? Ask yourself that honestly.

What if you ask the chef and he happens to be a vegan? Does he not get an opinion because he's vegan? Is he going to tell you, "I don't get an opinion"? Certainly not, but that's what you're saying.

It looks like Megan Rapinoe, female soccer player, kneeled in support of Kaepernick.

Perfectly stated...couldn't agree more

You keep missing that this is not what I'm saying at all. He clearly and obviously has the right to an opinion. I, as a rational person able to take circumstance into consideration, can then determine the validity of the opinion. Again, his right to an opinion doesn't make it relevant. By your logic, you'll get the fish and hate it and blame the guy that's never tried either dish.

If you don't think there are more opportunities today, for minorities, then I guess you just don't get out much. :) It's really not even a debate as much as a rhetorical question. The answer is yes, regardless of what anyone thinks. It is just yes.
If I look into the general populace I see minorities and whites too, being kept down due to the hands that feed them, which allows them to not have to feed themselves. It really is the old adage, "teach a man to fish." I want to help everyone help themselves. And along they way if they need a year or two of financial assistance (to be paid back), I can handle that. As long as I see them doing the right things (the right things being, being a productive individual), then I will help. It takes effort to succeed and most social programs today seem to make it too easy to keep taking the handout.

The more programs there are to help, the more the people they intend to help are hurt. It is common sense. Really, it is, I promise. ;)

I volunteer at the Salvation Army every week and have for 16 yrs running. I council homeless veterans on life skills. We have some pretty interesting classes as my views have always (for many, many years) stayed the same.

well-said, Leon.

+1

I go to a predominately black Baptist church in south Houston. The pastor is black, the youth pastor is black. The pastor has a masters degree in economics and the youth pastor has a doctorates in theology. If you told them they didn't have the same opportunity that a white person has, they would set you straight real quick. Derrick (or anybody else), come on down to the Anderson Road Baptist Church with me next Sunday and spew your lack or opportunities/equality ridiculous nonsense and I have some black brothers (in Christ) that will set you straight real quick. It's a serious invite.

I don't like what he's doing, think he has a right to do it, and have a hard time finding sympathy for a guy who makes $12 million a year playing football. I think Benjamin Watson hit the nail on the head with the letter he wrote after Ferguson.

The president has been so off base on soooooo many topics recently, that I think no one really gives two hoots what he thinks anymore.

Lets try to keep this as "apolitical" as possible, please. I fully understand the political system but if we give our own views it's not quite as political ....at least to me.

Yup, seems totally legit. If you think minorities are provided the generosity, opportunity and second chances that white males receive, you don't get out at all.

Vintagetoppsguy, as much as I appreciate the invite I don't see hopping on a plane for Houston to talk to the two black people you know that are doing well as an accurate barometer for equality. But keep telling yourself everything is fine, that's really all that matters.

Edited to add, are there more opportunities today then...whatever point in history, yes. It was within most of our lifetimes that black men and women couldn't use the same restroom as white people though. So yes, we've come a ways from those days, nobody is arguing that, but making improvements on ideals that should be shamefully embarrassing is hardly the same thing as equality.

life is the result of the choices you make and everything that happens is your fault and to your credit, blaming other people is silly scapegoat nonsense. yes they have the same opportunities, but they have made cultural choices in many communities to ignore those opportunities for the easy way out. Your amusing "safe space" rhetoric makes me sick to my stomach. what lame white bread middle class suburb did you come from to spout such hilariously naive platitudes?

hipster, pandering, white guilt rubbish, every damn thing you've said

Glad you and your white privilege took the high road.

Agree a million % and i wont get started on our fearless leader :rolleyes:

Just from my point of view:

I as well as many people i know are business owners i hire anyone who will make me money. White, black, yellow or blue. I could care less. Only color that matters to most if not all business people is green.

More people need to understand this.

You have to admit that the poverty pimps who jump on the 'racism' bandwagon in specific cases when it doesn't exist hurts more than helps. They only want 'the truth' when it fits their narrative. Otherwise they'll just repeat the lies until people believe it really happened.

The point that most people are missing is the fact that Kaepernick is wearing a uniform while doing all this. He is wearing a uniform of a professional football player. He is on that field to play football and do the best that he can for his team. That's what he is getting paid to do. He is not getting paid to display his own personal beliefs on the field. Football is a team sport, not an individual sport.

I agree that he is allowed his own opinions, views on life, religious beliefs, sexual preferences and so on, but not on the field. If he wants to sit while the National Anthem is playing, that's fine, but do it on his own time, not while he is in uniform.

I'll bet he is only doing this nonsense when the cameras are on.

My vote was for choice number 1 in the poll. It was the only choice close to what I feel should happen to him. Personally if he wants to sit, then the 49ers should let him sit for the rest of the year. Allowing him to play would be nothing more than justifying a wrong with a wrong.

(veteran)

I disagree with an earlier post that suggests legal backlash if the 49'ers dump craperneck. The notion that he did nothing illegal and thus making it an illegal termination can be proved erroneous easily: assume a pro player goes to one of the highly liberal states and partakes in legal recreational marijuana. Then upon failing a drug test could be suspended or terminated.

Although I obviously have no access to any of the players contracts, I am fairly certain that each and every one has moral clauses as well as team rule clauses. These are not law, but the player is obligated to abide by them. I am surprised the players union hasn't gotten involved to admonish craperneck, as the last thing they desire is reduced public support, i.e. reduced revenue. The failure of the 49'ers organization to take any public reaction to this treasonous(imo) act shows their management as weak and afraid to make any public decision whether favorable or unfavorable. And is probably why they are not winners any longer. The tail is wagging the dog.

If you are unsure of how I voted, please reread my post as I'm sure my stance is conveyed.

Mark Medlin

Not a 49er fan but hey, anything that keeps Kapernick off the playing field can only help the Niners chances of winning games.

Not standing for the National Anthem to me is kind of a catch 22, one of the main reasons to stand is that you live in a country where you have the right to speak up for what you believe.

Does Kaepernick not standing make us more or less uncomfortable than this?

Or you could reword to say it "One of the main reasons to stand for the flag is that you live in a country where you have the right not to stand for the flag."

Though my answer would be: If the tradition was that you kneel in front of the flag, he would be chastised for standing.

It just bothers me when people disrespect the founding of this country and, by extension, the flag, especially by someone who probably couldn't even name the first president. It's really that simple. You want to protest unfair jail sentences, or whatever, go lobby your congressman. As a football player, you've got some clout - they might actually listen to you. Hold a press conference and explain your views. You're a public figure, you can do that. Write an article. Hell, run for congress yourself; the average football career is only about 4 years, and yours is looking shorter than that. You'll have the time.

There's at least a dozen ways I can think of that you could make your point without offending at least half the country. Even if you're completely right, you've already alienated half (I hope it's more) of your audience. Dumb. Immature. Ignorant.

if this guy really wants to protest our country - he should do so by quitting his job, as this country is the only one that has an NFL and he should move to a better country. And show everyone how much better off he is.

About the same to me.....both are out of place and both should have/had punitive ramifications for the participants.

One little known fact about the Smith and Carlos ceremony is that the white silver medalist also protested in his own way, he (like the other two) was wearing the badge of an Olympic human rights committee, and apparently was ostracized in Australia for the act.

If you support freedom in all forms then how can you be against someone who chooses to exert that freedom?

I find it ironic that this thread has some white posters telling other people that minorities aren't disadvantaged. How could you possibly know that or what it is like to be a minority in this country? Doesn't it seem strange that you, a white male at the top of society's hierarchy, are telling others that they have the same opportunities as you?

Carlos and Smith were almost immediately forced to leave the Olympic Village by the same Avery Brundage who had not objected to the Heil Hitler salutes at the 1936 Olympics. They doubtless suffered a great deal of ostracism for many years afterward, although from my reading they are now looked on mostly favorably.

Actions have consequences. It's America. As much as I would support their (any of them) right to do what they did, I would support my right, if I were in that position, to mete out punitive consequences. We would both be within our rights. :) (See first sentence.)

Leon are you at all familiar with the Tuskegee experiments? They were still being conducted when that photo was taken. There is a historical and societal history that you are ignoring when you say things like actions have consequences.

Is it equally ironic that other white posters seem to think they know exactly what it's like to be a minority in this country? For example, when surveyed, only 10% of Native Americans were actually offended by the name "Washington Redskins". Yet by the uproar you'd assume it would be the opposite.

And to me anyway, it's not a problem that he's allowed to exercise his freedoms, it's HOW he went about it. I think it was just plain stupid. But, hey, stupidity is in style these days.

I don't claim to know what it's like because I don't know what it's like. I never could and I never will but I also don't pretend to have some type of understanding that I don't have.

With everything that is going on (and not just referring to a black/white issue), you seriously still believe that? I'd be more inclined to say that consequences and personal responsibility are the exception to the rule these days. ;)

I double down on my comment. That being said I would have held ALL of those responsible for that experiment accountable for their actions. We have a criminal justice system.

Yes.... and unfortunately you are correct.

Right but they weren't held accountable at all and I would argue that they chose their subjects carefully for that very reason. Do you think that equates to an equal society?

What opportunities are minorities (specifically black, since that is the topic of discussion) lacking?

And what of Rosa Parks, would you have punished her too?

The individuals authorizing those atrocities should have been held accountable, I agree 100%. However there was this..

"As part of the settlement of a class action lawsuit subsequently filed by the NAACP on behalf of study participants and their descendants, the U.S. government paid $9 million (unadjusted for inflation) and agreed to provide free medical treatment to surviving participants and to surviving family members infected as a consequence of the study."

and this is more than many injustices receive though I would have made more individuals be held accountable-

A year later on May 16, 1997, President Bill Clinton formally apologized and held a ceremony at the White House for surviving Tuskegee study participants. He said:
"What was done cannot be undone. But we can end the silence. We can stop turning our heads away. We can look at you in the eye and finally say on behalf of the American people, what the United States government did was shameful, and I am sorry ... To our African American citizens, I am sorry that your federal government orchestrated a study so clearly racist."


And bringing this full circle, I don't have a problem with any athlete expressing their views and opinions. However, I do have an issue with where and when it is done. And to those that say, well he got your attention, I say he could have gotten it elsewhere too.

Of course not. It's not the same. I would hope I would have been on her side concerning sitting on a bus.

No, it's not. She broke the law, they didn't.

Rosa Parks was protesting for racial equality. Kaepernick is protesting for...well, nothing. Huge difference!

My earlier question may have been overlooked. What opportunities are minorities (specifically black, since that is the topic of discussion) lacking?

The comparison was to Smith and Carlos at the Olympics.

I would of valued the protest higher if it came right at the height of his fame after the super bowl loss. Hes now more famous for the protest than for anything he has done on the field.

Jim Brown is a famous proponent for civil rights etc and he was equally famous for the work he did on the field.

They dont get to be president even if they are half african american...oh woops that changed. You would think if the President of the United States was half african american during the time of attempting to create jim crow laws or other times that impacted minorities..that holding the position of POTUS could impact that more than whatever was done in our history