Heritage Results
 

Well it's over and $717K seems to be the hammer ultimus!

Rose 10 RC, 56 mantle 10, 53 topps mays 10, ruth roookie 7...alll sold for 717K!
More "normal" prices on more modern non baseball HOF rookies...like jordan...and brown and gretzky

psa 8 commiskey A & G 34K...SERIOUSLY!!!!!!!!

Despite ridiculous prices for modern condition rarities...Vintage still appears to be king!!!! Same money for 71 topps clemente or mantle mid-high grade 52 topps rookie...seriously????

1.8 mill for the conlon archive!!!!!!! Someone's gonna run with that!!!!



Strong strong hammer prices for the most part I'd say!!!!!

Looks like all of the people calling for a collapse will just have to keep waiting. The Rose was 157k in 2012. Very impressive price!

Pete,

The 53 Topps Mays didn't sell. The reserve was at $600K, never hit the price. Same goes for the Goudey DiMaggio, Matty Jersey.

I have to agree, some crazy prices on many lots.

Tony

nice return!

Actually 56 mantle 10 sold for $382k I believe.

oopsie...it's early and I drank too much last night!

I'm glad the "Matty" jersey didn't sell.

ahhh...didn't notice that either. greed!

Not clear to me in a rational market how a Pete Rose Topps card from the 1960s could be worth 20 or 25 times what a Gehrig rookie card (less than 45 in existence) fetches. Or about 10 times what a Shoeless Joe CJ reels in. Maybe someone can figure that out.

Bragging rights. Only one person gets to say they own a PSA 10 Gem Mint.

+1

Yes, and when someone finds another 10 in a book somewhere your investment may look like a NY taxi medallion the day Uber showed up. Through the floor.

Ask the buyer of the only PSA 10 Wayne Gretzky how they feel about their purchase at 94k. Was ridiculed to no end online at the time for sure.

Fast forward and card sells for 465k.

Not everyone views their cards or collection as an "investment," and ties pleasure to what they are worth.

If one's card collecting hobby includes waiting or hoping for another Rose PSA 10 to get graded to indulge in some schadenfreude, one really needs to look inward and get rid of that bitterness and bile. I personally suggest yoga and lots of time on the beach ;)

Not rooting for anyone's card to go down in price. Not sure why you read that into my comment. Just stating the obvious: there is a lot more undiscovered recent cards than old ones. Any if you think someone spending 700,000 on a card is not a speculator for profit I disagree.

I think anyone dropping that kind of cash on a piece of cardboard certainly doesn't want to see it decline in value. If it does perhaps it has no impact on them financially but they won't like it that is for sure.

Not sure anyone here stated a collapse of the 10 market would take place. That is an entirely different animal but there are many, including myself, who said the 9s and lower market would correct and it has almost across the board.

Yeah I did not read that you were rooting either. The OP is way off base. Guess he does not recognize that population figures on cards never get smaller.

This hobby is so stupid. And it doesn't only deal with graded cards but also bats. A PSA Rose Rookie card graded a 10 sells for $700,000 while a PSA 9 sold for $19,000. Guess what, they looked the same. But nope, lets spent 680,000 more for a 10.

Brock, I totally agree with you on the PSA grade from 10 to 9 and the ridiculous prices. I always thought the most stupid thing to buy was a baseball graded by PSA. Since baseballs tone over time and discolor, you could buy a PSA 10 and 2 years later the ball has brown spots so the guy that bought it lists it as a PSA 10 which it clearly is not so it's like false advertisment and then you get the idiot buying it cause it is a 10. Makes no sense buying a graded baseball but people do because they they are obsessed with a number.

Where do you think you can get a PSA 9 Mint 1963 Topps Pete Rose rookie for $19,000????

Try $100k plus.

Heritage website said it sold for $19,000 last night. So unless their price is wrong.

The 9 sold for 131k last night on heritage.

Psa 10 $717,000
psa 9 $131,450

PSA 9 Sold For: $19,120.00 Nov 6, 2014

Where did the PSA 7 green Cobb end up?

Sold For: $71,700.00

71700

$717,000 hahahahaha.

In MY opinion this won't/can't last.

That explains it.. lol

Either way, still a huge difference between 717K and 191K for two cards that look alike.

It doesn't matter if the two look alike. One says PSA 9 and one says PSA 10. There are obviously times when a 9 turns into a 10 but at the end of the day the card graded PSA 10 will always be king in price.

It is so simple. Humans are turned on by having what is deemed to be the best.

And the exact same card that is best today might not be tomorrow. A 10 can always be a 9 and vice versa, from what I have seen. And both can come back trimmed on the 3rd day and back to a 10 the next day. It's a great way to invest :).

Twenty somethings minting money :).....

The issue is the phrase "what is deemed" and how "humans" can be so easily lured into what one person's opinion may be.

I can only imagine the power a card grader must feel when s/he ultimately assigns a 10 to a piece of cardboard, turning it into a winning lottery ticket. Must be intoxicating - how could that fact alone not blur judgment?

How about the possibility that the card was submitted by the guy down the hall who just bought it at auction and a bump will pay his kids college tuitions in one fell swoop, or it was submitted by a client you'd really like a lot more business from. Human nature suggests those possibilities as well.

It is literally like hitting the lottery if you get the coveted "10". And it is a 100% subjective number given out by a for profit business. Nah, I am sure everything is fine. That's where I am putting my money...the next Rose in a 10 holder is all mine.

Says it all IMO

I wonder, for example, at PSA how many graders have to examine and concur before a gem mint 10 grade is awarded. Given the final auction price on the Rose RC, I certainly hope Joe Orlando gives final approval for a gem mint grade on a high value card, if he doesn't already.

That's exactly the point - that there is this much money being committed without that minimum level of transparency is shocking to me. I would bet that transparency of the process would actually diminish the value of the product being sold -- why else would they hide it?

I doubt very seriously Joe Orlando looks at a single card. When CGC used to be booming, I knew without uncertainty that Steve Borock looked at every single "worthwhile" comic that came thru CGC. I don't think Joe Oralndo looks at anything. I see him more as a figurehead.

In any kind of "scientific" endeavor, consistency across graders would be considered de riguer. For example, entire forensic science have gone kaput when people have devised studies to blind a decent sample of reviewers to see what kind of consistency exists. All of a sudden one guys grade 1 is another guys 3 and another gal's 5.

Third-party graders are literally and allegorically the "men behind the curtain." There is intent in the process being shielded from the customer -- the mystery of the grade is part of the value; and a hidden process is not as susceptible to genuine scrutiny.

If you could watch your card being "graded" you might find yourself arguing with the grader, and trying to influence the outcome. But, that you cannot engage in such a conversation with the grader doesn't mean nobody can.

++. This is absolutely going on. If I had some high value important cards for bumps, I would never submit them myself, I'm just a newbie to PSA. I'd find the most influential submitter and give them a fee to submit them for me.

This is how our economy works. Those that have the relationships, carry the hammer. No different than our political parties.

I obviously have no idea what actually happens at grading companies like PSA, etc. However, I would think for six figure cards, somebody high up, maybe even Joe Orlando, looks at the card. Obviously someone like Joe is probably not a grading expert, and he has to trust his grading team. However, PSA also has to back that card and grade. If there is some obvious flaw like a crease that is somehow missed by the graders on a PSA 10, and that card is resold after grading, the new owners can come to PSA for compensation on a mis-grade. This probably wouldn't matter for most cards, but for really expensive cards, that's a lot of liability for TPG's that perhaps someone like Joe may want to take a peek at the card before it goes out.

I agree with most that the minute differences between a PSA 9 and 10 make the prices for a 10 seem absurd. I don't collect 10's, and I think the only 10 in my collection is a card from the 1980s that I purchased in a 10 for twenty bucks because it was one of my favorite cards from that era. (and that card is never going to rise in value.) However, there are some people with a lot of money who all they buy are the best of the best. I think I read in some article from Heritage's magazine Intelligent Collector that Ken Kendrick has stated he only collects the absolute best cards. So be it. That doesn't mean there isn't a legitimate market for cards in that stratosphere. There are some really rich people that buy art just because some art critic or dealer say that this is a masterpiece, and is worth $$$$. However, to us, that art looks like something my five year old could draw. However, these folks still shell out the dollars, and ask where they can buy more of those. When prices for cards hit six figures, it's so out of my means, it's just rich people buying things rich people buy to me, and that's all there is to it, with reasonable value rarely part of the equation.

Transparency of the grading process, or the subjectivity of such, is not the elephant in the room. How they authenticate older cards is.

What techniques and tools is PSA using to stay one step ahead of the counterfeiters? This process needs to be transparent, because it will lend credibility to the PSA brand.

I am as big a PSA hater as the next guy but I 100% disagree with the above statement.

All adding transparency to how they authenticate cards will do is make the card doctors/counterfeiters better. It would let them know what they could and couldn't get away with.

When prices hit that sort of level for a card that is easily found in beautiful condition, it doesn't seem reasonable. And what happens when the handful of guys who can afford to spend $717,000 on a card get tired of comparing pee-pees with baseball cards as the ruler?

Does anyone really think that a 1963 Rose is a good investment at $717,000? If so, I'd love to hear your rationale.

Personally I think that Rose at 700k is a great investment. I can't afford it, but it's the only one ever to receive that grade. There are plenty of collectors out there with a lot of money to spend. Rare cars and paintings have sold for 10s of millions before and continue to rise in value. Books, comics, coins, guns, pretty much anything that is collected big premiums are paid for examples that have survived in perfect condition.

For a guy who spends 50 mil on a rare vintage Ferrari, or 100 mil for a Van Gogh, what's 1 or 2 mil for the only perfect Rose, Ryan, Mantle, etc RC?

You're really comparing a piece of cardboard graded by a (censored) to a Ferrari?
It's a crazy world we live in. I would love to meet one of these people and try to understand the thought process of 700k for a cheap piece of cardboard with a crappy photo on it.

At the peak of tulip mania, in March 1637, some single tulip bulbs sold for more than 10 times the annual income of a skilled craftsman. Now it's Rose mania.

I concur!!

If you ever seen the tulip fields in the Netherlands you would understand. Ok maybe not but they are beautiful beyond belief.:)

Not directly. I'm just saying that collectors who can afford a 50 mil Ferrari probably see baseball cards a little different than you or I do. Someone else asked if anyone thought the Rose was a good investment at 700k, and if so, why. I do feel it was a good buy. If it ever sells publicly again this sale will look like a bargain.

The PSA 7 Cobb Green sold for $71,700.
The PSA 5.5 sold for $26,300.

A PSA 6 Cobb Green sold for $19,000 a couple months ago.

And there was an SGC 5 in Huggins and Scott last month that went for $8,000. One month later, and this one is starting to look like a bargain. :eek:

I don't see it. How many people do u think value a rose that high not many in my opinion. To garner a return I would think there would have to be several willing to pay 500k plus. I just honestly can't see that much chasing baseball cards. There has to be near 100 million in high grade cards purchased over the past 4-5 months. Even if it's an investment fund can't see that they have been seeded with much more. As for individuals even if you have 500 million in the bank i would be surprised if you allocate say 20 million to purchasing cards. A Ferrari is different it's a true object of desire for wealthy individuals world wide, the number of individuals willing to pay say 10 million for a single vehicle creates a sustainable supply/demand situation. If a fund is purchasing these cards I hope they have high and lengthy gates, they will find liquidity difficult if there are redemptions and when that happens you don't want to be the last one in

LOL, for $700k I bet Pete would move in with you.

Does anyone know what the T206 sold for?

Thanks,

Mark

I thought you said that one had your name on it, Jay?

Nah, I missed out on Joe Frasier's jock strap so I holding out till Pete's comes to auction.

Nailed it.

Which one?

PSA has graded 28 mint Rose rookies. One (for now) carries an arbitrary "10" designation. I would not like my odds of being able to pick that 10 out of the group if I could not see the flips. When the value of something derives solely from the flip a TPG puts on it, and not from its intrinsic qualities, I would not feel confident in its investment potential.

And I am not impressed with the argument about people being so rich what's a million for a Rose rookie. The hobby has always had its share of wealthy collectors, but historically prices have never been anywhere close to some of these levels.

Like the Ferrari, the card is also viewed the same, it is just an object/investment vehicle.

I am sure there are "True" collectors of both high end auto's and cards but I also believe there are those that only view these things as items and investment vehicles, nothing more.

An investment vehicle is a product used by investors with the intention of gaining positive returns. Investment vehicles can be low risk, such as certificates of deposit (CDs) or bonds, or carry a greater degree of risk such as with stocks, options and futures.

Sean,

It was the one that had about 50 graded cards. It was going for $18K before the juice with 2.5 hours left.

Mark

$22,700

On the other end of the spectrum (maybe of less interest to people in this thread) but the items related to the world Tours (1922, 1924, 1931) largely sold for far less than estimated prices. Seems like other than the '34 Tour and some items from the '31 Tour, interest is not particularly high.

what I find interesting is that the "rich people don't care" argument is never advanced by the rich. I have a feeling that guys with millions to spend didn't get there by being spendthrifts.

+1

Thanks Sean.

Yep, so true. My son goes to a private school that just started some new third party service to pay tuition. (A not cheap tuition.) This new company allows you to pay by mail but you can pay immediately online via credit card for a mere $42.00 "convenience fee". What a joke. Some convenience. When I raised this with the registrar she said "yeah. . . . nobody is using that on line option." Yep, a lot of rich people who didn't get rich pissing away $40 for no good reason.

This "convenience" fee has become de rigeur...esp when paying the city/state. You now have to pay extra to pay online/phone.

Not so everywhere yet. I just received my VA driver's license renewal form - the license renewal fee is:
- $35 if done in person at the local DMV office.
- $32 if done via mail.
- $31 if done online.

mn isn't so "nice!"

This makes most sense in that on line payment requires so many fewer man hours than processing in person or mailed payments. That said, SF charges some nice convenience fees to pay parking tickets on line.

Seems fees are becoming a pretty important source of revenue for a lot of entities... United Airlines is one of the biggest violators.

BELOW RANT FOR THOSE WHO FLY REGULARLY:mad:
I'm gonna ramble because I fly a lot for work. I expect others who do will know where I'm coming from.. and those who don't, please feel free to ignore me. Anyway, I typically use SW (AirTran too) or Alaska, both of which are great. United on the other hand is a total joke. At the automated SW kiosk there are maybe 2-3 steps for check in, none of which involve fees. United on the other hand has about 8 steps, all but maybe two (enter your confirmation # and print your boarding pass) involving fees. They go something like this---- "are you checking a bag for $40?", "do you want more leg room for $40", "do you want to sit in an elite (forward) area $40?", "do you want upgrade to window or aisle for $40?", "do you want to upgrade your boarding group for only $40?". Once on the flight, the TV screen is running a continual commercial trying to get you to swipe your card to watch TV. On a flight last week, I tried throughout the flight to turn the screen off, but could not.

At SFO, United also has a little contracted baggage policeman at their TSA security gate (this security gate only goes to United gates) who flags people down for having an extra hand bag, or if their bag looks too big. Anyone they grab is gonna get stuck having to go back, stand in line, check a bag and pay because almost no one's bag really fits in that little baggage size checker/thingo (I'd guess that fewer than 1/2 the carry on bags actually fit that thing, yet almost ALL will fit in the overhead once on the plane). ALL other airlines at SFO do not have this person at the security screening station, they just do what they're supposed to do--- screen/X-ray your bags. I'm certain United only stations this person there in order to augment revenue via bag fees.

Back to cards
I posted similar in another thread and totally agree with earlier comments about PSA (or other TPG) graders potentially being tempted to collude amongst themselves (or a lone person acting with outside people) to upgrade 9s to 10s, sell them and split the hundreds of thousands' profit.

The United baggage policeman is the greatest thing ever. It always pisses me off when getting ready to board and half a dozen businessmen are there. They have their suit jacket, a heavy coat, a laptop case, briefcase, and a carry on that is twice the size allowed. They usually all set together and take up every overhead storage bin within several rows. I have one carry on that is the proper size and usually get stuck sitting by those entitled A-Holes. I love the baggage police but agree with everything else.:)

I agree with you guys on avoiding extra fees when possible. I have paid cash at a gas station because I refused to pay a debit or credit card fee of a buck or so. Also mailed in a check to pre pay a year or so worth of water bills because of an online convenience fee. Easier than writing a check every month.

"A dollar saved is a dollar earned" that can be spent on cards! :)

Those are the dudes that have elite status or have paid for boarding upgrades and I'm pretty sure they're given near immunity with respect to bags at the gate.. that said, the United bag checker person at TSA doesn't consider that.

Funny, I SW I am typically one of those guys (perennial A-list preferred with companion pass), and do often take one extra thing;) That said, it's always a folding garment bag and I stuff it with my overhead so that it takes no extra space in the bin. If the flight is 1/2 empty, I'll lay it in a more wrinkle free manner.

I'd say it's maybe 1-50 times that they stop me, and only at certain airports, so it seems those at front of line get preferential treatment.. but given that SW doesn't charge for bags, you don't get every single passenger trying to carry every single item. I'd say it's probably 1-10 flights that they end up needing to stop people and check those final carry on bags... whereas United is virtually each flight.