First time I’ve been ripped off
 

Hey guys,
Just thought I’d share an experience with you as this seller continues to sell on the BST here (for now).
I bought a Piper Bat from Kevin (khkco4bls) and the deal for one bat ballooned into 15 bats. Kevin sent me a lot of pictures of his collection and I said that one day I would like to purchase my first vintage baseball.
He proceeded to offer me a Goldsmith baseball that has the word ATLANTIC across the front. The price was 600 dollars, and that was only because I was already purchasing 15 bats. The Atlantic League was 1896 to 1900 and I told him that I would be so happy to add a ball from that era.

Long story short, I asked Brandon Grunbaum to confirm the age of the ball and he tells me that it’s ball from 1926-1932 and it’s worth 50 to 75 bucks. Not 600. Not rare and certainly not of the era I was told.

I write Kevin and simply tell him that the ball isn’t what he said it was and that I’d like a refund. His first response is that he has another one and when it goes to auction in October, he would refund me the difference.

I responded to that saying that waiting until October is too long and that I never would have bought the ball if he told me what it actually was, regardless if he actually knew or not.

He then responds to me “No. You made the deals we all win and lose sometimes you're going to have to wait”

I’ve had countless deals on the forum and every one has been smooth. I’ve never deceived anybody and nor will I ever. I’m thoroughly disappointed that I won’t be refunded but I think it’s fair that everyone knows that when dealing with Kevin, you will not be refunded if unhappy. Heck, he won’t refund me after selling a ball that he completely misrepresented.

I hope that he reconsiders and refunds me my money, but there has been a lot of back and forth and essentially he’s telling me that he knows I’ve been taken but that’s just part of the hobby.
Well it’s certainly not the hobby I want to contribute to.

Rant over.

Jonathan Schwartz

Ball Question
 

I guess the immediate question is: you spent $600 on a ball that you did no research on until after you paid for it?
Am I reading this incorrectly?

I thinks there's bigger issues than your " immediate question".

It looks like the seller you've accused has many items listed for sale on this site. If this is all true it doesn't say much for his honestly or credibility. Hopefully he will respond and present his side of this story. Returning the item for a refund if it was misrepresented seems like a logical resolution.

Remind me to never buy anything from you.

If I sold you something as authentic and it wasn't would that be your fault?

After speaking to Kevin over the phone many times, and having many many texts back and forth, there would be no reason to believe he was misrepresenting anything. The prices of the 15 bats were extremely spot on and he came off as trustworthy. In the future, would I buy something like this again without doing research? no way.
In my heart, I believe Kevin was ripped off when he bought the ball originally. And maybe he has too much pride to admit that.

Ball
 

Saw a few responses and read the original post again.
My bad, I just got hooked on phonics....should have spent more time on it before responding.

The sellers response is like well we all get ripped off so I'll rip off you too . Totally inappropriate and BS .

Im not sure what your payment method was but that might give you a few different options with regards to the refund.

Paypal f/f through my AMEX. You might be on to something. Thankfully, I've never had to go through something like this so I don't know whether AMEX might cover me. I assume that because I paid f/f I'm a little screwed?

The seller really needs to make this right.
His future sales depend on iy. If you don't stand behind what you sell, then it is all a crapshoot.
Most folks on here would make it right.
I hope he does too.

In my opinion the sale is fraud. Misrepresentation definitely falls in that category.

Mark Medlin

If he doesn't make this right... He should have "sanctions" put on him..

That's complete bull crap from top to bottom. Keep us posted.

Good luck with the refund

Did Kevin tell you the ball was that old, or did you assume the ball was that old? That part of your story isn't quite clear.

If he told you that, yes you deserve a refund because it was misrepresented. If you assumed that, then you should have done more research.

Hey David,
He told me that. And then when I told him that Brandon said it wasn't from when he said it was, he said that Brandon doesn't know what he is talking about, I to quote his response "Whoever told you that was worth $75 he's totally wrong the ball is not from the 19 thirties there is a later model of the same type with different type faces that is not as early as that one"
To which Brandon replied to me "Comical, "there's a later model that looks the same"...The stuff these guys come up with. Tell him you talked to me, and show him this image. This is not opinion, this is research and fact."

Thanks for the reply. Good luck with your refund. Hopefully he'll see the post and make things right.

I hope you get your money back. I do think you have more protection with American Express although I'm not sure how paying via Paypal F/F will affect it. Here's a link: Link

Thank you for the link.
I will speak to AMEX and see what they can do.

Best,
Jonathan

I have had one transaction with the OP, and communication was flawless as well as the transaction, VERY SOLID BUYER!!!

To pull that to a good buyer -- who purchased a lot of bats in the same transaction -- is very poor form. To put it charitably.

Out the person. Period.

Yes, this needs to be covered too. Occurs everyday at Blowout. Net54 seems to be more mature collectors. More vintage inclinded.

If no one has, and apparently not, I will PM the seller of the ball and alert them of this thread. We need to hear his angle on it.

EDIT: Just sent a PM with a link to this thread. He was last on at 4:51 today.

What a douche of a seller. Yeah, Brandon doesn't know what he's talking about, ok. Has a book on the history of the baseball for no reason I guess lol.


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I second that and it's not just because he is a local that could take a ferry over to my house and bring his baseball bats to motivate a fair deal,'if needed ;).

I hope this gets resolved fairly ASAP.

Def contact AMEX. They usually cover their clients even if its the clients fault (which it isnt in this situation).

Best of luck!

Just a thought, maybe you could post a couple clear scans of the ball and then let a few of the other memorabilia experts on the forum weigh in on this one? Then it wouldn't be a case of simply Kevin's word vs. Brandon's. You'd have a much stronger case here if other's could weigh on whether the ball came from the 1896-1900 era vs. the 20s or 30s.

And yes, if he misrepresented the ball to you, that's a clear case of needing to give you a full refund. He needs to make that right.

The fact that this ball was being purchased in ADDITION to a large number of bats, and I'm assuming that was no small purchase, and the seller is yanking your chain like this? Unethical and in very poor form.

Over the years I've been on 54, I've seen instances where one's reputation can be eternally tarnished, deservedly so, because of a very poor choice. I truly hope the seller makes this right.

I second Brian, I would like to see photos of this ball.

Hey all,
Here are the pics of the ball.

http://i1249.photobucket.com/albums/...629_122643.jpg

http://i1249.photobucket.com/albums/...629_122651.jpg

http://i1249.photobucket.com/albums/...629_122718.jpg

http://i1249.photobucket.com/albums/...629_122724.jpg

And finally here is just a baseline PDF that Brandon sent me to clearly illustrate how that logo alone proves the year.

http://i1249.photobucket.com/albums/...OGO-DATING.jpg

Brandon also said that he could get into the materials etc but with this case is so clearly evident. Brandon says the ball is Canvas and that it's the 126-1932 equivalent of a ball sold in Dick's Sporting Goods today.

Not sure how much more info I could provide and when I sent Kevin this info, his tune changed to offering me the refund based on what his other ball sells for in October. Some people...

Not to take this off topic, but I thought you could only do Paypal f/f from your bank account, not Amex. Unless it changed?

Regardless, I hope this situation works out for the OP. Never a good strategy for a seller to "pay it forward" in a negative way.

Sh*t I just went back and looked at the transaction and it wasn't f/f.
I pay f/f about 95% of the time and for some reason I guess on this one I didn't.
I'm calling AMEX now to see what my options are.
Thanks for your post as it motivated me to log into my paypal account to double check. Much appreciated.

That's actually a happy accident. Regular PayPal and Amex give more protection. One thing to know: once you file an Amex claim, you can't do anything through PayPal; they automatically take the seller's side. Might be better to go through Paypal, then Amex, if PP doesn't help.

That's good news, that means you can get paypal involved if you don't want to bother with Amex.

EDIT: Sam types faster

I don't understand. He sent you a pdf. that is showing the logo on the ball, is from 1926-1932? Yet, sold it as a pre 1900 ball, for 600 bucks?

I must be missing something.

If it was being advertised as something it wasn't you shouldn't have to do the research.

At least not off of this site. This is the one site that I feel as though I can trust everyone.

The PDF is what Brandon sent me to clearly show that the ball was not pre 1900.
Kevin only offered the "let's see what my other one sells for in October" after I forwarded the PDF to him to prove that the ball was 1926-1932

'the going to the National' is the excuse we will hear now on any deals that fall through when it looked like a deal would go for a certain price but now the National has sprung up so the seller thinks can get more money there...

of course if they dont get that price they still dont come down even though 1000s of people who saw the card there didnt buy it...so just one of those fun fake excuses

OK, yeah, I understand now. Brandon sent you the pdf. Pretty much a closed case.

I really want to hear from the seller.
He probably was lied to on purchase, but he should take the hit on the resale, when shown, it was not as presented.

The fact that you purchased so many items from the seller should have resulted in an immediate refund. I would like to hear his side of the story, but until he replies (if he does) shame on him for such poor customer service.

Jeff

Yeah, but come on. A price was agreed to, then detached because of the NATIONAL?

Really? Not acceptable, as far as I am concerned.

My thoughts exactly. And if that was the case he could have been honest with me about it. If he was lied to, than I do feel bad for him too, but I've clearly shown him that the ball is not what he sold it to me as and he should refund me my money. The total deal was around 2500 USD.

right...it like he trying to 'win' ....he should just refund the money....people dont like being victims..but they should like more being an ethical seller

If the OP is telling the whole story, I'm appalled that no refund has been made. This seems like outright theft.

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The silence (from the seller) is deafening.

Normally, I would agree, but it is the 4th of July weekend. The guy has been on here forever, let's give him a chance to respond.

Is the second ball being taken to the National the same vintage as the one you purchased? If so, and the seller is now aware of the vintage, why would he try to sell it as an older ball at the National?

That's pretty shady! I actually PM'd the seller a few days ago about one of his BST listings, but haven't heard anything back. Thanks for posting this and making us all aware. You def deserve a refund!!!!

Agreed. Paypal claim first. No reason to contact Amex yet.

I wholeheartedly agree. It is my belief that he was completely taken when the ball was sold to him, and now he is too proud to admit it. If that isn't the case, then he is a complete scam-artist. He put the ball in an era, and it ends up not being from that era so those are really the only two explanations as to how that could happen.
Look, at the end of the day it isn't 5K or 10K, so I can at least be thankful for that. That being said, I wanted to get as much info on the ball as possible because I was proud to have something like that in my collection. When I sit in my baseball room with my 5 year old son, we talk about the history of the game, and we handle the items because that's how we enjoy it. It's not enjoyable to show him the ball that I got ripped off on.

I gave him a chance to take that out. When I originally emailed him I said that the ball isn't what WE thought. That gives him the out to say "crap, well I must have been lied to when I bought it so return it for a refund and I'm sorry" or some iteration about that.
Instead he said that Brandon doesn't know what he's talking about.
Then I emailed him the PDF reference to show the different Goldsmith logos and their years of usage.
Then he responds that he can refund me the difference after his other ball sells in October.
Then I tell him that it's a little much for me to have to wait until October for a refund.
His response was “No. You made the deals we all win and lose sometimes you're going to have to wait”

THAT is where he crossed the line with me.

It's 100% unacceptable.

Is the cover of that ball canvas? It knid of appears so which would make it a more a kids playground or carnival type ball. Either way the logo proves it to be much later than what it was sold to you as and you deserve a full refund on it.

Well, he was on the board as of 9 PM CDT tonight, he may not have seen this post, but he was here.

Brandon said that it is canvas. Also of note, he said that it would have been a regular ball that was bought from the equivalent of todays Dicks Sporting Goods.

Double post by mistake.

I got to an age when people say they will 'pay AFTER this or that' (in this case after he sells a ball in October) i just dont ever accept anymore....we probably here the old 'waiting on my tax refund' excuse..

if you took your money he should have the money RIGHT now to pay back...why does he make you have to be unconfortable waiting for your money when he easily can be the unconfortable one refunding you now...then he can waiting till October to resolve his money issue.......you have bills to pay now...... slow pay with conditions is the same is no pay to me ..

i may get in back and forth on some on some posts..but you will see its never about an actual sale of a card and a dissatisfied buyer...i not sure how you dont refund the money on that issue immediately i know i woudl

Agreed, no professional baseball league would have used that ball.

And take your point (which I agree with) one step further, I don't even WANT a 1926-1932 canvas baseball that has nothing to do with a professional league. If he would have told me what it was when he offered it to me, I would have said no thank you.
So to wait until October to see what it sells for, ONLY to be able to get a refund for the difference makes absolutely no sense. I simply don't want it. I've told Kevin that I don't want it and that I can't wait until October for a partial refund. His response was "what I sent you is the best I can do"

Unacceptable.

I agree that he probably got taken when he bought it. I can't see, after this thread, how he wouldn't give you a refund. He seems to be a great contributor here and not really worth it. Hey, it's past midnight... Happy 4th errbody!

Not to pile on, but I thought that khkco4bls did something a little shady in June in this thread http://net54baseball.com/showthread....t=andy+sandler. Basically he took another seller's for sale thread and listed his own item in that thread. In my opinion that was bad form...Just my 2¢.

Jeff

He is at least viewing this thread at the moment.

Let's talk about Jonathan for a minute he did this deal with me talked about how much he was so excited to get these items and so excited to have all these bats and the ball he was so excited to put them in his collection this is what he was telling me when we made the deal told me to ship the whole bag of items to Pennsylvania where his buddy lives. Jonathan is in Washington state. Then he proceeded the next day to have his friend put them all up on eBay for profit I have no problem with him doing that he should have just told me that in the first place and I'm telling you right now since he couldn't hawk the baseball and make money on it he wants to return it 4 months later 4 months. not a week, week and a half for months so who Shady here Jonathan. and obviously appears to me that Jonathan didn't do is homework. Yes I do have the same ball in the box that is going up in REA including my whole collection in October I'm not going to the National. Jonathan is nothing but an eBay store looking to make profit on everything he buys it's not for his collection like he says. The guy emailed me last week and asked you have any more baseballs to sell and then he comes up with this. So let's make sure we tell the whole story Jonathan not just what you think in your head. And yes I bought mine with the box from Bob McCann I didn't get ripped off in any way when I bought them so let's stop all that nonsense and Bob McCann obviously Miss informed me of the dating of the ball

By the way how my basketball item wound up in somebody else's thread I don't know and didn't know until I read this it was supposed to be on the my own thread

I have never ever had a problem selling items to anybody on here or outside of here until now he will get his refund I got to get it together. But his partner in Pennsylvania who ever it is I'm nothing but an eBay store or Hawking items that they buy from other people. That kind of bothered me because he tells me how excited he was to get all these items he's full of crap

4 months???? :confused:

4 months and items being sent for a quick turn to the eBay store....And now the plot thickens, can't wait for the response from Jonathan.

Jeff

The plot thickens...

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and the other shoe drops.

http://i.giphy.com/E3xXqq617AaFW.gif

Talk about FIREWORKS!!!! BOOM!

<iframe src="//giphy.com/embed/w2UtIGtEpuR9u" width="480" height="226" frameBorder="0" class="giphy-embed" allowFullScreen></iframe><p><a href="http://giphy.com/gifs/funny-snl-yes-w2UtIGtEpuR9u"></a></p>

Could these be some of the bats?

http://www.ebay.com/sch/m.html?_odkw...-1911&_sacat=0

Hi Kevin, my name is Greg. I'm the friend of Jonathan's in Pennsylvania you mentioned. Jonathan is new to memorabilia and I've been around long enough to be able to help a little with advice on old baseball bats. Yes, he was very excited about the bats he bought from you. He was still a little nervous about such a big purchase and he asked me to have a look at them and tell him what I knew about them before sending them along to him with a few other bats that I had already sold him.

Unfortunately the bats that you sent were mostly in rough condition, with two "bats" from the 19th century that barely qualified as pieces of baseball equipment. I think one used to be a bat (cut in half) or the handle of a farm tool and another looks more like a banister piece/stairway railing post to me. Another bat was barely held together with grip tape or else it was two pieces.

You shipped them all inside a bat bag thrown into a large box. Normally this wouldn't have been that big of a deal, but you included the Eddie Collins Mini Decal Bat (wrapped in one layer of bubble wrap) just thrown in with the big heavier bats and it lost about 20% of the decal that was on it before you shipped it. Most of it was in a pile of crumbs stuck inside the bubble wrap. I really don't know much about old baseballs so I couldn't be of much help to him with that baseball unfortunately.

Anyway, when I informed him of the overall quality of the bats he decided that he didn't want them. He was both upset that he made a purchase without knowing enough about what he was buying and discouraged about the whole deal he had made with you. Instead of asking for a full refund he decided to "take his lumps" as a learning experience and move on hoping that his "cool baseball" would be the saving grace of the deal. So, I offered to list the bats (that were actually bats) on my ebay ID in an auction style with starting bids just under his individual cost. About half of the bats sold for the starting price or one small bid higher. The other half did not sell.

To say he was trying to make a profit is making you look foolish Kevin. Don't forget the 10% ebay fee and the 3% ppal fee were subtracted from those sales, and half didn't sell. They were sold to ease the financial pain of a horrible deal with you.

As for the ball, neither of us knew anything about it so he did research on his own after I mailed it to him...and here we are. Why don't you just refund him? He was too nice to not just send everything back in the first place. You are an ameturish "picker" with a basement full of 30 years of leftover fleamarket junk you gathered, not a memorabilia expert. You were wrong about the ball. Man up sir!

Greg Bishop

Ball not being from the year / era is a problem

4 month return also a problem

Cut the ball in half and return 1/2 and refund half the money - :rolleyes:

Thats them.
GB

A little off topic but the bats on eBay look pretty nice for their age and for the prices paid.

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Greg, no offense meant, but those bats are pretty nice. I know that Collins bat, and you stated it "lost" 20% of it's decal, yet in your eBay ad, you stated "75%+" was present, so did Kevin sell it to you/Jonathan with almost 100% decal intact??

Greg

This seems like a witch hunt to me. Unfortunately I have been the focal point of one of those and it's not fun. Jonathan tried to take the high road, did nothing wrong and deserves a refund, Period.

BTW, I have been intricately involved in this issue for a few days. Ball was sold as something it isn't. Four seconds, minutes, hours, days, months, years.....still not the ball it was portrayed to be.

I understand LL, not trying to upset anyone and apologize if I did, but at the end of the day, isn't it "caveat emptor"

Just my 2 cents (no change required :D)

Those are all of my bats that he listed I sent photos descriptions told him over the phone what they were to what they were before he bought them so don't tell me they were in rough shape they weren't in that rough shape and the decal was missing 20% of it when I shipped to you. You should have sent me pictures and said that some of it come off you didn't you chose not to and then you sold everything. what more can I do I sent plenty of photos to him

Naz, only the Hornsby bat was nice. By my standards those are rough. I said the Collins bat lost 20% of the decal from when it was pictured, meaning 20 off what was on it before. Not 20 off original 100.

GB