Post a Stupid Question - Prewar 101
 

I'll bet that many of you have questions about vintage prewar cards that you are embarrassed to ask. This thread is for you. Ask a stupid question or answer someone else's stupid question. And you don't need to be a noob to participate.

If successful, this thread will be a treasure trove for new converts to prewar collecting. So without further ado, let's get started with the first question.

Were T202 Triple Folders folded into packs at the time of distribution or were the cigarettes just longer?:eek:

Is this Wagner real?

Why is a grade on a card called a flip?

withdrawn
 

......

When you say "Pre War", which war are you talking about? There's been a bunch of them.

Rob M.

The flip, to my knowledge, refers to the little index card thingy at the top of the case. This includes everything. The grade, serial number, it's all there.

If it is 3rd party graded, be assured it is real. Nor has it been trimmed.

Did Shoeless Joe ever play in the majors without shoes? If he did, how did he avoid getting spiked?

Since I have never seen a looooong prewar cigarette, I presume they were folded, which begs the question are all high grade T202 cards creased?

I know what it is . I was asking why is it called a flip .

When it comes to vintage bb cards, the term 'Prewar' is commonly known to refer to cards issued before the involvelment of the United States in World War 2. Thus the 1941 Play Ball, 1941 Double Play and 1941 Goudey all make the Prewar cut.

Brian (Great thread Frank)

Thank you, Frank.

Who came up with the letters and numbers to identify prewar sets? M116, t206, e145, etc.

New thread title? Your stupid question will be better than our stupid answer
 

One of my favorite sayings that I may have been the first in this entire world to coin..."Your stupid question is better than my stupid answer"

Brian

Jefferson Burdick. What do I win?

What does a "strong registration" mean? Is that code for a high grade?

Before our involvement in WW II started what were pre war cards called?:confused:

Why is there no 51 Bowman Joe DiMaggio ? ;)

David K. posted a great article recently about the man who was the founding father of the ACC system:

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=224583

Brian

Thanks for the quick response. No cash prize unfortunately.

What do people in China call Chinese food?
 

The old joke is 'food'.

Brian

why prewar and not pre-Topps? who started calling cards from this era prewar cards and when?

I just received an e-mail from a General Shebango in Nigeria, who also says that he is a Prince, in which he tells me that he is in possession of a PSA 11 T206 Doyle NY N.L. with a Drum back that has a ghost image of Joe Jackson sliding into second on the front and evidence of being next to Honus Wagner on the back. He says that he wants me to either wire him $100,000 in US dollars or to give him my bank routing number and account number. Which method would you suggest?

I used to call them PreWW2 cards, but found that dealers when asked this needed me to clarify what I was looking for. I think the prewar term has been prominent for about twenty years(?).

I believe that because of the virtual stop of baseball card production due to the war, it made a better break. The Pre-Topps term is not bad, except it gets a little messy with the Bowman and Leaf mass produced cards in the years before Topps entered the market.

Brian

Are T206 "errors" getting out of hand :confused:

http://i.imgur.com/RRwwXdr.jpghttp://i.imgur.com/xTjx4X3.jpg

It means that each of the color layers in the printing process is perfectly aligned (aka registered) with every other layer thereby creating a clear, sharp image. The more layers that are out of whack the weaker the registration (and less appealing the image ----- unless the registration is waaaaaaaay off and it moves into the realm of the freaks - this thread needs a card!).

Rob, I believe the correct answer is the "War on Poverty".

Because one of the first employees at PSA was comedian Flip Wilson, and he was in charge of grading the first cards. The rest is history.

If Honus Wagner made ALC pull his T206 because he didn't want his image to help promote tobacco use in children, then why did the Flying Dutchman let this fly 40 years later?

Probably just milk duds .

Of course lets just call the grade on a card a flip after flip Wilson . That makes sense I should have known .

I believe the term derives from removing the label and replacing it with a better one - like flipping a house for example. Adios.

I have audibly laughed out loud at several posts in this thread already. Frank, you're the best as always. I don't know what's better: the War on Poverty, or Honus Wagner eating milk duds. Hilarious!

Love a joke as much as the next guy, but a helpful answer might be more useful to a fellow collector than a joke.

Ok, fair point. Bryan answered your question about registration. What other questions do you have?

Registration is a printing term for how accurately an image is reproduced. Poor registration can be fuzzy, color not staying inside an outline, doubling etc... 1958 Topps is notorious for Poor registration, especially the Ted Williams card. If you get one with nice registration it's a coup.

Thanks! Good to know.

Couldn't help but think of some more questions .... Why do Gem Mint (10) cards have off center backs? Why do so many people on ebay find cards of Babe Ruth, Ty Cobb, and Honus Wagner in their attic from their grandfather? Why do these same people not bother to get these cards possibly valued in the thousands graded but are willing to do an unreserved auction starting at 99 cents?

Because they're allowed to by the definition of Gem Mint by the grading company. PSA permits up to 75/25 on the reverse and up to 60/40 on the front. Beckett is much tougher on centering.

Why does one series of T206 say "350-460" subjects, rather than just 460? Like when it went from 150 to 350? Trying to keep collectors off balance ?

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

I see a lot of T206 Polar Bears with tobacco staining. Is this a common trait or just a coincidence? Were they packed differently than other issues? Also, why are American Beauty borders so thin?

PB's were packaged in raw tobacco packs..in contact with the tobacco.
The others were in a side pocket of the cigarette pack.

I'll try one
 

common to the issue, yes, the slide and shell was thinner........

Aside from the "throwing" and "Portrait" T206 cards, are there any other old Rube Waddell cards out there? I can't seem to find even a picture of one.

He wore some white sox thingies that went half-way up his calves.
Several pictures of him in the T202's center panel.

Why are rookie cards more valuable than a player's other cards?

So what if it's his first card?

Why do people pronounce Wagner's first name as HO-nuss, when there are many instances where he is referred to as Johannes, Hans, and John?

Most will disagree with me. However, I still contend that it should be pronounced HAH-nuss. To those who disagree....why?

No real good reason beside that collectors collectively determined they were more valuable. This desirability seemed to gain momentum by the mid 1980's with newer issues, and has crept into the vintage market probably within the last 12-15 years.

I always preferred the last Topps card of a player...Roberto Clemente's 1973 was a great card in my eyes, because of his untimely death it showed his entire career stats.

Brian

That's why Brian's collection consists exclusively of players who had only a single card issued, both their rookie and last card rolled into one.;)

Man if it were only so. That would take up a lot less space. Space is the final downsizing frontier.

Brian

Now, that is an interesting concept Frank. I really like that.
Get a PSA 10, you probably have a 1 of 1.

Who knows
 

In coin collecting the first year of a new issue is usually no big deal - unless accompanied by a real low mintage. Most rookie cards do not necessarily have low "mintages" compared to others of a player.

Someone back around the late 1970's came up with the idea of holy grail Rookie designation - and the herd followed - and is still following. OK, go get 'em tigers, get those rookie cards!

Ok, the actual explanation for "rookie" cards being worth more -

Before collecting became somewhat mainstream cards were mostly collected by kids. Kids typically collected for 2-4 years, and after that time the cards went into a sort of collecting limbo. Maybe given to a younger brother (Or sister as I did with some of mine) Maybe stored out of sight until mom found them after HS graduation, maybe just tossed.

Also typically, a player didn't become an overnight sensation. So they might not get a really big following until maybe their 4th or 5th year.

When cards were being disposed of sometimes a kid would hang on to a few favorites. These were more often established stars or locally popular players.
So the first cards of some players survived in lower quantities than cards of stars.

Once the hobby became more mainstream, this became more of a traditional thing rather than anything based on there being fewer available. And with the proliferation of draft pick cards and eventually a few high school prospects sets it got silly. So I believe it was Beckett that produced a definition of a "rookie card" That has become a generally accepted standard.

Whether that definition truly makes sense is a matter perhaps for its own thread, I personally disagree with it on some points, but it's accepted and overall isn't bad although it gets trickier for prewar cards. (It's skewed towards what can be reliably sold by a dealer, so most of the tougher cards are out, and the mainstream ones that exist in quantities from "not too tough" to "my goodness they made a lot of these" are in.


There are a number of people here who collected before what I consider the first big boom, roughly 77-81 and a bit beyond, Their recollection of the timing may be different as 77 was when I began seriously collecting and 77- 81 saw a large increase in full time or more serious part time dealers. From a handful in the country to several in any major city. The downturn caused by the 81 strike took out a bunch of the ones that weren't well funded or just weren't all that into being a card dealer.


Steve B

Ah yes, a blast from the past.

Just how did Archie Graham know who Gil Hodges was?

Raymond, Great observation to a great movie. Also, why did he acknowledge Mel Ott?

AB borders are thinner than other T206 because the cigarette packs that they came in were more narrow than the other packs.

prc
 

what is a pre rookie card and who decides it?

Thank you, Sean. Makes sense.

Makes me wonder if T206 PSA 8s also came in smaller packs.;)

I knew there had to be a reason. Thank you for the explanation, xplainer.

While we are still in a judgement-free zone, another question:

Why are Exhibits so relatively affordable? I assumed it was a pop issue, but consider this: PSA has graded 158 DiMaggio 39-46 Exhibits and over 1000 39 Play Ball DiMaggios. The SMR of a Play Ball PSA 5 is roughly 5x the price of the Exhibit. And in my opinion, the Exhibit is so much better looking (less toothy.) Any hypotheses are welcome.

Since they are postcards some folks don't consider them to be true baseball cards.

I love them. Some of my most favorite pieces.

Ditto for Leaf and Goudey Premiums. The Rith Goudey premium is rare and stunning, and you can buy a decent one for under $1000.

Box was narrower

He lived a long life as a doctor, and Hodges was a well known ball-player. If we suppose he kept his knowledge when he reverted to his youth it could make sense. We really quibbling over what makes sense in a fantasy/ghost story?

The premise of this thread was to post a stupid question that you would otherwise be embarrassed to post. The presumption was that most stupid questions could be answered by the "intelligentsia" on the board quite easily in what has been rightly referred to as a "Judgement-free zone".

The questions posed have been for the most part appropriate and many answers have been given.

So why in the hell after twelve hours has my initial question been ignored. Perhaps it wasn't so stupid after all. Maybe starting out with the triple folder question was a bit presumptuous on my part, so i will ask another related question.

Were T201 Double Folders folded into packs at the time of distribution or were the cigarettes just longer?

and

Are all high grade T201 cards creased as a result of their packaging?

There is still some debate about the American Beauty cigarette packs, as it appears there were some that were possibly wider. The following thread from awhile back discusses some possibilities, and has images of American Beauty packs.

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...ghlight=beauty

Brian

Wish I could help you Frank...I can only answer slow-pitch softball questions.

Brian

since they were indeed folded in the packs, and it was a machine fold, I don't believe they are technically considered creases. What does often happen is that the hinge (what the intelligentsia call the crease) wears on the edges of the cards the more it is used and you get a notching effect on the borders. In my experience this is what can really damage the grade of an otherwise appealing T201 or T202.

T202
 

Frank, I can't answer your question, but...

Why are T202 Hassan named Triple Folders when they only have 2 folds?
Why are they not called Hassan Triptychs?
Why do I occasionally see them with a center crease?
Why do people cut them in thirds and sell the pieces on ebay?(Hi Brian:))

Are strip cards naked?

Scott - you missed the joke...I was just sharing what I consider a stupid question...as per the thread title.

I love that movie - even with it's imperfections. Movies, after all, are at their best when they serve as escapism and Field of Dreams definitely fits that bill.

only if they are not graded (RAW) :eek:

:eek::eek: :D :D

I am lost when the terms "VCP Data" and "SMR" are used.

A quick google search reveals that SMR means Sports Market Report and appears to be a price guide published by PSA.

VCP (vintage card prices) their google search says they are "The authoritative baseball card value price guide" I think this is a subscription service.

The terms "VCP Data" and "SMR" mean nothing to me.

To establish pricing, I use the latest Standard Catalog, and past eBay sales. But these other "values" seem to be very important with some collectors.

Larry

I'm enjoying this thread.

A question: Are there any prevailing guesstimates / conventional wisdom on roughly how many cards were produced - and how many survive - for particular sets. For example, do people in the hobby have some rough idea how many 1933 Goudey #181 Babe Ruths or T-206 Dark Cap Mattys (or cards in Topps issues, while we're at it) were produced and survive?

Thanks.

Larry,

Like Jeopardy, in order to get one of my stupid answers, your stupid question must be in the form of a question.

Sincerely,

Alex Trebec:cool:

BUSTED! LOL!
Why should I care about "VCP Data" and "SMR Data"?
Larry
(I am lost when the terms "VCP Data" and "SMR" are used.
A quick google search reveals that SMR means Sports Market Report and appears to be a price guide published by PSA.
VCP (vintage card prices) their google search says they are "The authoritative baseball card value price guide" I think this is a subscription service.
The terms "VCP Data" and "SMR" mean nothing to me.
To establish pricing, I use the latest Standard Catalog, and past eBay sales. But these other "values" seem to be very important with some collectors.)

Larry,

After looking at your cards, I can assure you that you can safely ignore that "data".

You are an outlier, my friend.:D

RC's
 

Another reason rookie cards cost more is that they are collected by other than set-collectors. For instance, I'm a hall-of-fame collector, and at this point, having collected most of them, I especially try to get their rookie cards. There are others who only collect rookie cards. So, there's more demand and a larger market for them.

Also, to point out the obvious, it is the player's first season, and that makes the card more special.

Frank,

Mecca cigarettes were about as long as camel unfiltered. Do they still sell unfiltered cigarettes in the U. S.? But I digress... The cards came folded and that fold can greatly affect the quality of the card. Think chipping and wear on a typical card. I asked about this a few years back in a discussion with Earl, formerly the Customer Service guru at SGC (hey, Earl, what is up). His comments are what you would expect for a standard card with the caveat to pay attention to the condition of the fold.

As for the fold, it is quite evident on higher graded T 201's, but much cleaner, obviously created by machine in the print and coalation process, with a smoother surface. And yes, the condition of the back of the card, especially the fold, will have an impact on grading.

I have a question about T201. The cards were printed at two locations, factory 30 and 649. Which location represents a scarcer card, and why doesn't anyone collect by factory location on these cards like we see on T205, T206, T207?

Thanks Frank!
outlier: someone who is different or far from a main or related body.
Larry