Partially ripping a card opening the mail
 

I think my worst nightmare happened last night... I bough a raw card online and opened the package last night, and unfortunately it happened to rip the card that was in the package! There was no top holder, bubble, tape, or even cardboard to protect the card. All that came was paper from a receipt from the purchase. I really hate making a big deal out of this, but is this enough grounds to ask for a refund? Or should I have handled opening the package more carefully? I really think that even a little protective[Card was purchased on Ebay].

To caveat, I have opened hundreds of mail packages in the last 6 years and I never broke or ruined anything. This includes raw cards as well.

[I was going to show the ripped card but it's Friday morning and I don't want anything upsetting on the board right before a weekend.. I do have photos I can send to Ebay though].

Pete

I think that you can make an issue regarding how the card was shipped - I certainly would! AND you can ask for a refund, but I suspect that you will not get one.

Good Luck!

John Daly's Guide to Opening Mail

To me, it just depends on the purchase price. If it was anything over $20, I would ask for a refund. Anything under that, I would just move on and never do business with that seller again.

Agree with David but I also think it depends upon what you paid in shipping charges. And I would tell them why you aren't doing business with them again...so they can correct their shipping practices.

Z

$880 to be exact. Which just makes it even more upsetting because the least they can do is protect the card for the price.

Someone sent an $880 card in the mail, with no protection at all!?!??!!! Not even a ten-cent top loader?!? Good luck getting a refund, but that's beyond unreasonable.

What??? Contact seller , or EBay if necessary. Absolutely get refund. Card was inappropriately packaged and was damaged

+1 There's no excuse for this insanity, Pete!

That is insanity....can you let us know who the seller is please. Good luck trying to get a refund, I have a feeling though you might have a difficult time getting it.

Jeff

I don't know, if the card managed to make it you without being ripped I don't really see how you could say the card was ripped because of the way it was packaged. The card is ripped because you ripped it. I could see your point if the card arrived torn.

I lean towards Packs on this one. I do not think a seller should be held responsible for negligence on the part of the buyer once the item arrives into the buyers possession.

Demand a refund. What was the seller? So we can all stay far way. Good Luck

What a breathtakingly irresponsible seller. Who ships an $880 card like that? I understand that some will say this is on the buyer. However, had the seller taken any reasonable amount of care when packaging the card, this would not have happened.

If it were me, I would demand a refund.

He ripped it BECAUSE of the way it was packaged. $800 card. Surprised there is even a conversation about this.

There's no reason a $20 card should be shipped without even a top loader let alone an $880 card. That's terrible. The only time I've had a damaged item due to bad packaging it was damaged in shipping and covered by insurance. This one is tough. Seems like some fault can be placed on both sides, but I lean towards the packaging should have been better. Good luck!

oooh. that's a tough one. you damaged the card directly due to the seller's inept pack job. i also lean towards Packs on this one. the seller is obligated to get the envelope in your hand undamaged, which they did. however, that is an unacceptable pack-job and nowhere near the industry standard.

edited to add: if you do file a claim, please let us know how it shakes out....i'd be curious to see how eBay rules on this one....they do tend to side with buyers more often than not.

shipping
 

Given the manner of shipping I am assuming there was no insurance. Even if there was I am guessing the shipper would say coverage would not apply due to fact damage occurred post delivery.

If seller says here is how I shipped it ( badly) but it got there undamaged. and was damaged by buyer in opening it, and buyer concurs but says damage was because of unexpected poor packing by seller, what would ebay likely do ?

I agree that manner of shipping was irresponsible, but not sure what ebay would do with these facts.

I agree that the seller should have packed the card better and there's no excuse for crappy packing. But the fact is the card wasn't damaged regardless of the packing. The card was damaged by the buyer. If you're the seller, how do you get made whole too now that your card is ripped (packing issues aside)?

There is absolutely no way on earth that card didn't suffer any damage in transit, even before Pete finished the job.

I only say that because he didn't mention any other damage. I don't actually know.

I agree. The seller got it into your hands undamaged, from what you're telling us, so his responsibility, and that of the carrier, ends there. From that point forward, it's a matter of taking personal responsibility for not being more careful.

All cards I've received have had some sort of protection, but I am always very careful to make sure the card is nowhere near where I am opening the envelope. Same when I receive letters, and orders that may contain checks inside.

Just curious, did the lack of protection result in any other damage, like a crease or damage to the corners? I'm wondering if an expensive card shipped that way did in fact arrive completely undamaged. I'd still say you were responsible for the rip though...

Let's see this card. Go ahead and ruin our weekend! :)

Pictures of the card and the envelope/packing would go a long way in helping us get a better idea of the situation at hand.

If the card was in a bubble mailer and packaged as the OP described, how is he supposed to know which end to rip from? A loose card like that is going to float around/shift inside the bubble mailer. Whenever I get a card in the mail, I always feel where the card is at inside the bubble mailer (its obviously easier on graded cards because if the thickness). Once I find the card inside the bubble mailer, I open from the opposite end as to not do any damage to the card. If the card was packaged as the OP described, how was he supposed to know where to open from - he probably couldn't have felt the card inside the bubble mailer? If he was expecting a card with no protection, I'm sure he would have been more careful. But when he spends $800 on a card, he was probably expecting some kind of protection and ripping the card was the last thing on his mind.

I'm sorry, this is the absolute worst feeling.

Talk to the seller, see if you can get a partial refund.

I fixed it for you.

I agree with you that it should have been packed better but from what the OP said about what happened it doesn't sound like the card was damaged during shipping. It was only damaged upon the buyer trying to open the package. The seller should have done a better job packing the card out of courtesy and common sense but unless the card was damaged en route I don't see how it contributed to the card being damaged by the buyer.

Ouch! And based on the only raw card to have ended in the past couple of weeks meeting the price criteria, is it appropriate to say.....

Say it Ain't So!

$880? You sure you didn't accidently miss a decimal point in there?

I guess this is another reason to only purchase TPG graded cards... :D

You can't say the first two bold items and then state the third. The card was damaged because the seller was lazy, stupid, or both. I'm baffled that someone so blatantly stupid enough to ship a $1k card with absolutely no protection carries no fault here. The fact his item was carried and delivered by a cavalry of featherlight angels instead of the usual diamond crackers is nullified since said angels didn't hang (float, they float) outside Pete's door to warn him upon his return of the trash of a seller he was dealing with.

File a SNAD claim, get the refund, out the seller.

Yes, it was damaged by the buyer, but if the seller would have done a better job of packaging, this wouldn't have happened. That's how it contributed to the card being damaged by the buyer. It still falls back on the seller. His lack of properly packaging the card led to the card being ripped.

Let me approach this from another angle. Let's say you purchase a frozen food product that must be refrigerated (or kept cold) and have it delivered via USPS. The seller fails to pack the product with proper packing materials that keep it cold. Is it your fault that the item arrives ruined because the seller didn't do his job? Of course not. The same thing applies here. The card was ripped because the seller didn't package it properly. Period.

Well I only say that because it doesn't sound like the way it was packed caused any damage en route. The damage was caused by the person opening the package. Seek a refund and see how you do. Those are just my opinions.

We can propose an example that more closely relates to the situation at hand.

My hypothetical is to say a card arrives to me, shipped in a supersaver sleeve inside a padded envelope. Sometimes those padded envelopes can be a little tough to tear or rip open especially if the seller taped the enveople closed with packing tape. So I take a pair of scissors to clip the top of the envelope off to open. In the process I cut through the supersaver and clip the card inside.

Who's fault is that? Is it the seller because he should have put the card into a more sturdy card holder or additional packaging? Or is it my fault by displaying negligence in cutting the envelope open and not taking care in opening the package that had safely arrive in my possession?

I think it is equal parts on the buyer and seller. I have received cards in the mail with just a stamp and envelope and have managed to open without damaging the card. I have also managed to open bubble mailers with just a loose card inside without damaging anything.

It was irresponsible on the seller for shipping it poorly, but the same result could have easily happened if the seller packaged the card in a 4 inch thick slab of cardboard wrapped a million times in packing tape. I think you always need to exercise caution when opening a package - especially if you can tell the item was packaged poorly.

True, but you really can't tell it's packaged poorly until you open it, right?

If it's the card I saw on ebay, and you're talking about the same one, I bought a raw card from this seller once (a '49 Bowman Ashburn) and it was in a toploader. But I guess we're just speculating here.

I did exactly that once...it was my fault...so pissed and on a rare boxing card!

I don't know the seller, but what happens if they are a member of this message board ? :D

Are you saying the card wasn't even in any kind of a holder? No sleeve or card saver? If so my opinion is that is very irresponsible on the part of the seller. I would file a claim and let ebay and paypal sort it out. I would also leave negative feedback describing the manner in which the card was shipped and obviously never do businesses with the seller again.

I would expect even a $100 raw card to be in some kind of a holder between two pieces of card board and either bubble wrapped or in a padded envelope.

Thank you all for your feedback! I tried to contact the seller directly but he mentioned that he's positive it was in a hard protective holder (there was none - I am not strong enough to rip a hard protective holder even if I tried sadly).

I will be sending this to ebay to resolve directly and can keep you all posted.

Happened to me
 

I do not think you'll have a problem. This happened to me once. I paid over $300 for an item and it came shipped just as yours did. When I opened it I tore it. I should have probably kept it because I am yet to see another example but I did report the issue and sent it back. Paypal refunded me right after I gave them the return shipping details. I'd be surprised if you run into any issues getting your refund. Good luck with this.

My guess is that the seller intended to put it in a hard protective holder, and thinks he did, but he spaced out when packing it and just stuck the card in the envelope (I assume a bubble mailer?) without one. I hope you get a refund, or at least some kind of restitution, because the seller clearly screwed up, even if it was technically you who tore the card.

I had a issue earlier in the year. I got a card in a bubble mailer and it was between two pieces of cardboard that was taped. So I opened the mailer and went to rip the cardboard open. Guess what? No top loader, penny sleeve etc.just the card.luckly I noticed it was like just before I bent the crap out of it.
It was also stuck to some of the blue tape that was put on the cardboard.


I left the seller natural feed and wrote in why. Since nothing went wrong I did not leave a neg. he promptly writes me a all cap message asking why. I told him to read what I wrote in the feed back and that he was lucky I didn't go full neg on his candy a$$.

Every card I ship is in a holder and sent in a box like this. If I sent a $800 card it would be with signature confirmation packed securely, there are no excuses for what that seller did.

Is that anything like a neutral feedback? :D

I just don't understand some sellers. I package all my items almost the same way. Everything starts in a bag and board or a top loader, etc. Then I put it in a flat rate priority envelope with a heavier cardboard stiffener and all of that goes in a bubble mailer. All of my items have a Please Do Not Bend sticker in bright red or orange as well. Maybe that is why I have 3,800+ positive feedbacks with no negatives? As a buyer, I want my items packaged the same way, but it rarely happens.

Jeff

Hahah ahhhh auto correct always keeping it fresh. I didn't even notice the error.

If I sold a card that expensive, I'd send it registered mail. Because sometimes you gotta say "WTF".

Completely agree with Robert here. For many people, $800 is a great amount of money. I would be blind with rage if I received a card, unprotected, as the OP did.

I'd be enraged if I paid $10 for a card and it came like that.

+1

I bought a 1986 Fleer Update Doug Drabek rookie for a dollar and it came in a plain white envelope and was annoyed for a good half hour about it. Those blue borders can chip easily! ;)

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

After a month of waiting, $25 in shipping & $113 UPS brokerage/tax fee the Mantle ball finally arrived!

Inside, bent LOA and one loose PSA Ball Case in its original box wrapped in flimsy bubble wrapper and a smudged Mantle Signature. :mad:

http://i.imgur.com/gLJAIZk.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/TUGNzDy.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/IvKBKMM.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/EDAmwXR.jpg

Holy smokes! That's a return if I ever saw one.

judging by the pics, the process has begun.

as for OP i think pete bears some responsibility here, but i'm all for him sticking it to the seller for a lousy shipping job. the seller did contribute to the accident with the way he shipped the card, and it's on him to learn this expensive lesson. if he had any common sense to ship the way a $800+ card should be ship pete would certainly know where the card is situated within the package and open accordingly.

You would first need to own one to sell one. :) I tend to overnight and cross my fingers on higher dollar items. I have done registered on very expensive (5 figure) items. I would ask for at least a partial refund as I believe it was mostly the sellers fault this happened. No excuse for shipping that way. When I won 8.8k (8 qty) of E94 overprints, many years ago, all of them were stuffed into one 3 x 4 toploader. I guess it saved on weight or something. I thought it was crazy but none were hurt. Live and learn.

It really saddens me to see how many people think the guy that ripped the card should get a refund.:(

I didn't read any of the replies yet, but I shared something similar to this on another board and the overwhelming response was that it was mostly my fault. Considering how the shipper packaged my item, I disagreed, but I was not fishing for excuses or sympathy, merely looking for how others felt.

That said, I think that any decent seller should package an item that should prevent damage in most normal circumstances during shipping and that includes stuffing something into the smallest possible envelope that it will fit in, taping the living crap out of it and then basically forcing the buyer to cut it open!

Anything shipped loose in a mailer w/o a semi rigid sleeve (at a MINIMUM) is negligent, especially when condition matters. It also doesn't cost much or anything to team bag a single card or tape the top of a holder to prevent an item from sliding out.

If anyone cares for comparison, my item was an 8x10 brochure type item that was mailed "loose" in a thin padded mailer. It had absolutely no room to move, because the mailer was just large enough to fit the item tightly. I think it may have even been slightly taller than the mailer inner edge, so that the flap needed to be folded oddly to close it, but I can't remember now. I tore across the upper 1/2 or so of corner of the envelope, not expecting my item to fill that area that is normally empty in 98% of the packages I receive. I tore a 1/4" x 1' strip off the corner of the item. It was low dollar, but was a Garvey item I needed.

I take partial responsibility for my actions, as I could have opened it up several different ways, but had the seller given any amount of thought into shipping this item "correctly", the damage I inflicted would never have had a chance to occur.

Are you serious? If so, are you the seller?

What if a card is shipped raw next to an open cup of coffee inside a big box. Is it the buyer's fault if the cup tips over?

Yes I am serious and no I am not the seller.

Plain and simple the card arrived as described then the OP ripped the card. How can this in any way be the sellers fault?:confused:

I have bought several 100 cards off this forum. I have gotten several of these in a PWE. Yes nothing but a raw card in a PWE. This really bothered me at first but then after reading a few threads on shipping I realized as long as it arrives without damage that is what really matters.

I'll just repeat what I said earlier:

If it was damaged in transit that is completely different. Now please show me the post that the OP said it was damaged in transit and not by him.

How would he know if a corner was dinged or if three was a bend before he ripped into it?

I could not disagree more. Shipping a raw card with no protection in a plain white envelope is not acceptable in my opinion. It is a seller's responsibility to package a card so it arrives safely. If a card is able to be torn in half simply by opening the envelope it was obviously not protected properly. If I received a card purchased from this site, or elsewhere packaged in this manner I would post pictures and the seller's ID and name to warn other members.

Imo, this is a 50/50 or a "no fault" situation as both parties are wrong to assume it's the other guy's fault.

Seller should have shipped the card, (especially an expensive one!) much better and the buyer should have been more careful opening the envelope, especially knowing an expensive card was inside. Just my 2 cents for what it's worth?

Question for the OP:

Was the envelope marked in such a way that you knew it contained something you purchased? Stated differently, did you know there was a sports card in the envelope before you opened it?

Just curious.

The item arrived safely into the hands of the buyer, did it not? The OP did not state there was any further or additional damage to the card as a result of the packaging other than the ripping that was a direct result of the physical action of the buyer. In my mind, the case ends there.

The OP has not posted any pictures showing the rip of the card, or the rip of the envelope which I think are important pieces of evidence in this situation. We have no knowledge of the degree of negligence that the OP had in the "ripping" of the envelope.

Part of shipping an item safely is ensuring it won't be damaged in the process of normal opening. The envelope was opened normally. It was like setting the buyer up to ruin the card.

As is frequently the case in these buyer vs. seller threads important information is missing. Pictures would be nice to determine who is actually at fault.

With what the OP has said I stand behind my statement than if an $800 raw card was shipped in such a manner that simply opening the envelope could lead to the card being ripped in half, it was not packed properly and the buyer should be entitled to a refund through the ebay guarantee.

I purchased a cheap $3.00 dollar John Tavares hockey card this past spring and it came in nothing more than a regular envelope in a card saver.

I wrote the seller and told him I was none too pleased as I believe it could have been placed in a bubble wrapper, and/or wrapped in 2 pieces of cardboard, or anything better than what it was.

He replied, if I wanted a better shipping pkg, I should have requested it, which of course would have cost me more money he said.
I told him nowhere did I see this mentioned nor did it mention how this card was going to be shipped.

In hindsight, he is right. We, as buyers assume common sense will be used and a card(s) will be shipped properly, or as how we would ship them as collectors.

Going forward, I now ask, or allude to how I want my card(s) shipped and wait to see what the seller says?

My only bad experience is the JT card I spoke of, (which I left negative feedback on) but when my card arrived, I knew right away it was a card due to the unfamiliar address and after holding the card up to the light, I knew where to tear it open.

I agree with the OP being pissed, he has a right to be, but I also believe some care or extra care should have been used when he opened the envelope as I would assume most do with any envelope that arrives in the mail?

If the card would have been packaged properly (top loader or card saver sandwiched between two pieces of cardboard), do you think the card would have ripped?

Yesterdays mail included an eBay win for me. An off center 1961 Fleer basketball card #66 Jerry West In Action, the last card in the set. Well the seller must be an attorney because he used an envelope embossed with his firms name as the return address:)

Before I opened the envelope of course I thought "uh-oh" what the heck is this?

Seller only charged me $1 to ship, and the card arrived safely, and snugged in a Card Saver I. So I left positive feedback with this comment:

"I thought I was being "sued" when I got the envelope:)"

He just replied:

";), that ensures priority delivery"

Larry

When you say "card saver", are you talking about one of those semi-rigid sleeves that people send cards when submitting to PSA, or a penny sleeve? If just a penny sleeve, then I agree with you. If in a CS1/2, then I don't see a problem with how your seller shipped your $3 card. Is a rigid holder preferred? Absolutely. A CS1/2 is far better than nothing at all, though.

In the case of the Pete's card, I 100% think the seller was negligent in how he shipped a card of that value, but I also think the Pete bears at least some responsibility in how the package was opened. Of course there is was no way he could have known the card was shipped bare, but any package, no matter how much tape or glue was used to secure it, can still be carefully opened without ripping the package. I use a either a knife to cut open boxes, or one of those letter openers (the ones you can fit a business card in) to open bubble mailers that have packing tape on them - slice right across the top, easy peasy lemon squeezy.

This is 100% on the seller. It doesn't matter if it ripped in Pete's hands. If you purchase something of value you have to be able to assume that if you open it in a reasonable manner you won't damage it. Ripping an envelope is a reasonable way to open an envelope. As a matter of fact, unless new envelopes are also transformers, it is the only way. If the card is in a toploader or cs1 it's fine, if it's between cardboard it would have been fine. Pete ripped an envelope, because envelopes have three purposes:

1) Put something in envelope.
2) Close envelope.
3) Open envelope.

They way I have been taught the steps is:

1) Insert item or document with hands.
2) Sealed with adhesive (primarily with hands.)
3) Opened with hands or sharp object.

I'm sorry it saddens you that this is the only way I've been taught to interact with envelopes.

It was a rigid card saver, and maybe you're right, but it was my first card I had ever received in a regular envelope with no other protection provided.

I forget what shipping was (It was in Canada) but it more than covered what a bubble wrapper would have cost.

Like I wrote above, we as buyers are silly to "ASSUME" anything and as I once heard, the only problem with common sense is, it's not very common.

For everyone reading/posting in this thread, I think we will all be wise, going forward, to ask how our card(s) will all be shipped in the future. I assume, (there we go with that word again) that the OP certainly will be.

I usually have some inkling that there might be a card within regardless of the packaging.

So if the card was packed in a block of ice, I might choose to let the ice melt, rather than use an ice pick or sledge hammer.

If the card was distributed in boxes of cereal, I might choose to pour the cereal out of box until I could see and easily remove the card, rather than dive into the box with my grimy paw to search and destroy.

Or if the card was contained in one of those molded hard plastic packages that are difficult to open by any technique, I might choose not to open it at all.

And if I received 100 envelopes that day and knew there was a card in only one, I would look at the return addresses to determine which envelopes could safely opened by the "grip it and rip it" methodology, if that was the only way I had been taught to interact with an envelope.:D

ebay
 

Everyone seems to agree the method of shipping was completely unreasonable. Most, but not all, think the seller is responsible for the damage that occurred after the item arrived. The question I raised earlier is assuming the seller tells ebay the item arrived undamaged but that it was damaged in opening the package because the method of packing was unreasonable, what is ebay likely to do in that situation ? I guess we will find out.

I have personally come closer to damaging cards I received because they were entombed in tape and bubble wrap to protect them :) Patience in opening is a true virtue.

I have to say Frank, I have not yet experienced the block of ice shipping method

It can be debated whose fault it is.

What I can say is that had it been insured the USPS wouldn't pay out because it was packed poorly. I've seen this firsthand with a damaged phonograph that wasn't packed with enough packing material. Oddly the USPS people themselves recommended adding packing material to the package before bringing it in for inspection. "Make sure there's enough packing material in the box or we won't cover it" They did cover repairs done by someone in the business based on a quote. The reduced amount probably made it easier.

Funny story.
A friend used to sell needles for the old Victrolas. One day he gets home to find a message on the machine from the FBI. One of the buyers forgot he'd bought them and called the police about the "suspicious package" he'd just received. What was pretty cool was that by the time he'd come home the package had been "neutralized " and the agents were only wondering if they were correct in thinking the contents were Victrola needles. A quick explanation and the number of the Ebay listing cleared it all up. The guy left positive feedback and never asked for replacements for the ones that got blown up.


Steve B

No, USPS wouldn't pay out because it was delivered safely and they don't consider it their responsibility to stand by and assist the recipient in opening his envelope.