Letter to george and other "haters"--ali (cont.)
 

Thank you to several of you who so eloquently responded to George and a few of the haters regarding Ali. I would like to skip over his boxing feats as well as the issue of refusing to go in the military to kill innocent non-white people and instead ask George and the other "haters" the following....Please take the multiple choice test below, representing a FRACTION of what he accomplished
*** Ali did the following ..which have you done???????????? ( if you did something even close , you can count it!!)

a) Gone to Lebanon in 1985 and secured the release of 4 American hostages
b) Go to Iraq in 1990 and secure release of 15 American hostages
c) Raise over $120 million for Barrow Neurological Inst (Phoenix,Az)
d) Go to NUMEROUS Children's hospitals (too numerous to list)
e) Go to soup kitchens to help!
f) Save a person on a window ledge about to commit suicide
g) Brought 5 TONS of food , clothing and medicne to help Catholic nun's rescue efforts for Liberian refugees
h) Supported Make-A wish foundation, Jeff Gordon Children's Foundation, Special Olympics, Beat Bullying, Buoniconti Fund for Paralysis, UNICEF, and dozens and dozens of others
i) Honored by Amnesty Int'l, UN Messenger of Peace, Presidential Medal of Freedom ( among dozens of others!)
j) After beating Foreman in Zaire, sits on porch stoop with children doing magic tricks for them
k)HAND DELIVERED food and medical supplies to many many countries around the world!
l) spontaneously gets on a bus carrying disabled children in '92 to sign autographs and make them laugh
m) ALL OF THE ABOVE
n) NONE OF THE ABOVE (hint--this is the correct answer for most of us, incl George)

Ali--you were my hero, the greatest of ALL TIME!

Everyone has a right to their opinion. All that this board asks is that you have a name next to it, so thanks Bill Lat.zko for the thought provoking post.

Just wanted to save that for posterity in case he edits his post and deletes that part.

Arguably one of the the most recognized/ known people to ever walk the face of the Earth. My score on the above questionnaire- 0

Great man indeed. Not perfect but none of us are. Did more for other people than 100s of others put together would do in 10 lifetimes.

For all the good he did he should have saved some of it for Joe Frazier. Ali was a great fighter and later a humanitarian but I never understood why Joe Frazier wasn't the beneficiary of any of it.

to cliff bowman
 

not editing my post, wouldn't delete that for a second, ESPECIALLY after the bravest most principled man on earth (and my hero) just died. You must be jokin'!
The only way I'll edit my post is to add to the list many more things that Ali did for humanity that you couldn't come close to in 5 lifetimes!

He did treat Joe Frazier like shit for no reason other than to hype a fight, subjecting Frazier's family and children to death threats. Never did apologize to Frazier in person either. I always thought, personally, that this meant that deep down he may have actually believed the awful things that he said.

I am an Ali fan, so no disrespect meant. But the way that he treated Frazier has always given me some pause about Ali the person.

Tom C

to cliff bowman (from bill latzko)
 

"Just wanted to save that for posterity in case he edits his post and deletes that part."

I wouldn't edit anything I said except to add lots of things Ali did in one lifetime that you couldn't do in 5! I'll repeat it.." killing of innocent non-white people" .At a moment like this, when Ali's courage is talked about by most of the media, I would be unable to live with myself if I backed down from something I believe in and said!


oops I thought my initial comment didn't post so I sorta repeated it again...sorry (for the repetition, not the comment!)

Ali apology
 

Hi Tom--here's when they made up and ali apologized...........
The wound to Frazier's psyche was deep. In the ensuing years, as Parkinson's syndrome limited Ali's speech and mobility, he has evolved into an almost saintly, ethereal force, the controversies of his past forgotten as his fame expanded and he raised millions of dollars for charity. But Frazier has searched for wider renown and struggled to shed his bitterness.

Last week on the anniversary of his victory over Ali at Madison Square Garden, Frazier said, "Hey, man, just come on and give me a hug and let's get on with our lives."

During an interview in a Midtown Manhattan hotel suite Wednesday, Ali said, "In a way, Joe's right. I said a lot of things in the heat of the moment that I shouldn't have said. Called him names I shouldn't have called him. I apologize for that. I'm sorry. It was all meant to promote the fight.

"I like Joe Frazier," Ali said. "Me and him was a good show. It was a good traveling show."

Frazier embraced the apology.

"I accept that," he said in a telephone interview from Wildwood, N.J. "I'll accept it, shake his hand and hug him when I see him. We're grown guys. Why we been biting off bullets? We have to embrace each other. It's time to talk and get together. Life's too short."

My take, and this does not at all justify it because it was ugly, was that it was psychological warfare and nothing more. Just Ali trying to get into his opponent's head with whatever would mess with his head the most. I don't think he meant it. He did apologize to Joe's son Marvis I have read, just couldn't bring himself to do it face to face with Joe.

Frazier said after all of this that Ali only apologized through a reporter and not to him personally.

Tom C

He verbally assaulted the man to the point where his family received death threats FOR NO GOOD REASON AT ALL other than to promote a fight and make money. He alienated Frazier from an entire segment of the population. In doing so he denied Frazier the opportunity to be loved by those that he most wanted to be loved by. And after all of this he still never apologized to his face.

I think the world of Ali, but this part of his life I simply cannot get past.

Tom C

good point
 

good point, 'nuff said!

Ali
 

Lets continue this on Net54 Boxing site

Aren't we glad we aren't all conscientious objectors? If we were, what language would we speak? Would we have organized sports? Would we have this forum? Would the Internet exist?

Mark Medlin

My father was morally opposed to the war and didn't want to kill. However, he felt the call to serve his nation. The solution? He became a medic during Vietnam.

I don't think George Forman is going to read this .

yes we'd have organized sports, and this forum and the Internet. Aren't we lucky that we're not all warmongers

So if there were white people to kill he would have went into the military?

Only if they weren't "innocent". ;)

Too many debates inside those sentiments to even begin.

Mark Medlin

I was admittedly pretty young when the Vietnam War was going on, but I don't remember there ever being a threat of the US being invaded from the North Vietnamese. Or the North Koreans during the Korean War for that matter. It was of some concern during WWII, but that's the only war I can think of since the War of 1812 where being invaded by a foreign nation was an issue. Historically, we have generally gone to war to protect other interests, most often economic ones.

Oh, just in case you forgot, we lost the Vietnam War. We pulled out and left South Vietnam to a fate we either could not or chose not to prevent. My step dad was an Air Force officer who spent several years over there in the early days of our involvement. To this day, he still doesn't understand what we were doing because he damn sure doesn't think we were trying very hard to win the war. But even though we lost, we still speak American English, play organized sports, have access to the internet, and even have the ability to post dumbass remarks on this forum from time to time.

Oh wait I see what you're saying now. Never mind my original comment. I will just add the Mexican - American War and the Philippine - American War as wars that threatened US land interests directly.

I wonder how 1,000,000 conscientious objectors would have fared against a blitzkrieg? How about against the Russian army? Surely that would have stopped Tojo. Let's go back a little farther. Maybe the conscientious objectors could have slayed Gengis Khan.

Communism.

Some people thought that preventing communism was worth dying for, others didn't.

I think if every human in world history opted to be a conscientious objector, there would have been no need for soldiers to prevent such atrocities and conflict.

I respect everyone's right to fight or not fight, but I didn't see a lot of power behind Ali's decision. He was never in any type of danger, even if he did go fight. He was a celebrity. Do you think anyone ever took a shot at Elvis? It was more of a statement against the institutional racism of the time. That's why he used the moment to invoke how white people addressed him and how no Vietcong had ever said that to him. That's the power in the statement. Focusing on his refusal to fight I think misses the point of the moment.

I agree with that. And if nobody cheated on their taxes our rates would be lower. And if everyone paid for their medical care, those costs would be less. And if we all were nice to each other we wouldn't need alarm companies, guard dogs, electric fences, nuclear arms, policemen, armies etc...

Mankind has proven time and again that many people and groups are ONLY stopped by force.

Shangrila does not exist on earth. Unfortunate.

I will drop from this good spirited debate now, before it becomes ugly. Interesting views.

I have no problem with Ali, just with a couple of words that you used. I don't understand why you brought up non white and then doubled down on it. What is your point? The only way that would make sense is if you are insinuating that Ali would have been fine with being stationed in West Germany and would have had no problem with possibly killing an innocent "white". That is absolutely asinine. As for your other point, Dick Cheney has given millions of dollars of his own money to charities, does that make him a good person in your eyes?

wow
 

phenomenally spoken, thank you!!!

I can agree with all of this, but a straw man argument deserves a straw man response.

Muhammed Ali found no reason to fight for a people who had no love for him, nor did he have a reason to fight against a people who did not wrong him. He felt that the greatest injustice Americans were facing was at home and chose to stay and fight it.

And that brings me back to my first post. If an army of objectors faced a fierce army that had no objections against killing, who wins the war?

gooks in the rice paddies
 

and people like you said they were going to undermine our democratic way of life!! (gooks is what Y"ALL called 'em) Our "way of life " was to kill 2 million of them so they wouldn't paddle over in rowboats and spread their communismn around . HA!!! WW2 is quite different than Nam or Iraq and the conversation regarding THE GREATEST had to do with Nam, not WW2. By the way you spelled G______Khan incorrectly.

Sorry. Genghis. My auto correct dropped the h. Anyway, I never made a comment pro or con regarding Ali, or a specific time period. My comments were merely in regard to his mindset of an objector. I think that is hogwash. My .02. Type till you are blue in the face, but until you can prove how conscientious objectors could have stopped the holocaust or any such atrocious event, you will not change my mind. And it's lucky for you that people with my mind set have kept your life unencumbered by war.

Cheney and his charity
 

NO In my eyes he is a war criminal and should be executed. (not joking).. IFF he gave to charities, it's with the money he made from Haliburton in Iraq and all the millions he made from the war he helped provoke. Ali not only gave to charities but was willing to give up (and did) EVERYTHING for NOT going to kill people. That's a yuuuuuggee difference.

By the way, name a war or intervention if it makes you feel better since WW2 that we have fought against white people; that's why I made the comment
about killing non-whites.

Well, there would be no war if an entire side conscientiously objects.

Muhammed Ali fought a much more noble war at home than he would have fought overseas. He was already drafted into an army and fighting for the freedom of millions of Americans when Uncle Sam came knocking.

I have no love for draft dodgers, nor do I have anything but the upmost respect for service men and women, but Muhammed Ali was doing a much greater service to mankind staying home.

By the way, you misspelled huge.

I doubt his draft dodging decisions caused any disent. I'm glad you aren't against draft dodgers. But outright support one. You guys have some crazy ideas. But that's what fighting for freedom has provided, your ability to spew them.

people like you!!
 

Your last sentence makes me realize that you are a Ted Nugent Dick Cheney
Richard Nixon right wing fool who just happens to collect baseball cards. People with YOUR mindset encumber our lives with war;

It's lucky for me that people with MY mind set have protested against warmongers like you. Up against the wall, m________.

PEACE OUT

P.S. Ted Nugent rocks in more ways than one. Oh, thanks for calling me a fool. You are a warrior in the Thesarus department.

I believe America was made a better place because Muhammed Ali chose not to go to Vietnam. If you think this is a "crazy idea" than more power to you, it's a beautiful country.

...

Well, both of those wars are arguable I suppose. In the Mexican-American War, annexing Texas was the straw that broke the camel's back since Mexico still claimed Texas as its national territory. In the end, we conquered Mexico City and gained about 50% of Mexico's land, so I guess who invaded who is debatable. That was another extremely controversial, and to some, extremely unpopular, war.

In the Philippine-American War, we had just, and I mean just, gotten the Philippines from Spain after the Spanish-American War and we fought the same people who had been fighting Spain for Philippine independence the year before. They viewed it as a continuation of the same struggle for independence. We didn't. Again, who was the invader really depends on point of view.

Thank you for making my point. Just because someone does good things for society does not mean they are above criticism, which is what you are trying to convey.

I would suggest that sometimes it makes sense to try and figure out what you are fighting for before you engage. People understood the reasons for WWII, but even that war had conscientious objectors such as the Amish, Mennonites and at least some Quakers.

With respect to Vietnam, I'm not sure anyone ever did that, other than to make sure that we kept those darn communists, who were already here by the way and therefore subject to our laws AND our constitutional protections (despite Joe McCarthy's efforts to the contrary), out of here. That obviously worked out well. :rolleyes:

Mark- just a reminder of your previous promise.

Seems it's difficult for some of us to live up to their convictions even for the short term.

Try to imagine how difficult it was to face the consequences of your decision - not running over the Canadian border or enrolling at Oxford as actual 'draft dodgers' did.

Imagine instead standing by your decision and seeing the best years of your life being subjected to the kind of criticism that 'folks' like you continue to spew.

I will not promise to 'drop out' of this discussion as I believe in defending true Heroes.


.

Mark,
You essentially asked...what would happen if a nation of objectors stood up to a nation of war, imperialism, and violence...

The answer is you get India, the largest democratic republic in the world. Gandhi took a revolution of violence in the early part of the 20th century and turned it to a movement of civil disobedience eventually leading to the creation of India and Pakistan. Through strikes, mutinies, sit-ins, walk outs, etc. he created a movement that paralyzed the British.

Also the notion that we do not need objectors is a very limited, and frankly, a very disturbing trend.

The objector acts as a voice of opposition, a voice of conscience. People need to have that voice. It often leads to great outcomes. One of those great outcomes was the great nation you now live in and supposedly support. As someone mentioned above, you can both be an objector to war and still serve. Some of the first objectors were Quakers and Mennonites. They refused to fight in the Revolutionary War even through they were strong supporters of the Revolution itself (on grounds of taxes, freedom of thought and religion, freedom of movement, etc.). What did they do, they supplied the revolutionaries. Often with food, clothing, wagons, tools, etc. With out their help, what might have happened.

The idea of objectors is necessary and often overlooked.

I had the pleasure of meeting Mr. Ali on several occasions at show signings and one notable run in at a hotel here in Los Angeles. I got to sit and speak with him and his daughter and he was personable, funny, and wanted nothing more than to make others around him feel comfortable. As much as he seemed to crave fame at the height of his career, he seemed, at least to me, almost shy about it at times and people came up to us and asked for autographs and photos. I never got his autograph but was much happier to shake his hand. I was younger then and did not appreciate the man and what he came to represent as much as I do now.

I rarely wade into these frays but my hero, Jackie Robinson, respected him and was able to create a friendship with someone who held very different views. In fact, that is one of the things I have come to appreciate about Ali, his ability to engage with any culture, religion, race, etc. in a meaningful and respectful way...I wish we could all aspire and strive for that one character trait...

Joshua

Ted Nugent is a moron, just my opinion....

Absolutely agree, but I still like Snakeskin Cowboy and Stranglehold pretty well. Not as much as I used to 35 years ago, but pretty well.

I got in this thread after the fact. Are we talking about the same "George"? If it's Forman, did you hear him this morning on Mike and Mike? He had nothing but endless praise and admiration for Ali.....

Yep, "Free for all" as well. I love his guitar playing when I was a teenager. This guy absolutely annoys me now though. He can't wait to go out and kill animals, and then brag about how many he slaughtered. This type of mentality is a shame in our society.....

'Bout time to introduce some religion into this thread and get all the bases covered. One thing Ted Nugent has on Dick Cheney is that he is a better shot.

I have high praise for any and all who trapped or hunted those great-tasting cows that make up my double-whopper....yum, yum...


but, no, I do not want to see them or hear about their treatment prior to arriving in the bun.

I am, unabashedly, into food consumption, not preparation. :D



.

Just a little fact checking with respect to some previous posts:

1) "By the way, name a war or intervention if it makes you feel better since WW2 that we have fought against white people."

So, I'll name one. Under Clinton, we did a considerable amount of bombing of white Christian Serbia. I guess you forgot. BTW - I think it was a good call.

2) "You essentially asked...what would happen if a nation of objectors stood up to a nation of war, imperialism, and violence...The answer is you get India, the largest democratic republic in the world."

Yes India, a country with nuclear weapons, a huge military, in a perpetual state of near-war with Pakistan. I would add that Gandhi's tactics ultimately prevailed against the U.K., how long do you think he would have survived had Imperial Japan succeeded in South Asia and pushed the Brits out of India?

I just think it is ironic that this thread and the discussion on Ali's failure to serve his country was started on a day in which we honor and remember those who served and gave their lives on D-Day, 70+ years ago today.

Perhaps we can all take a moment to honor those who served to protect our right to say what we want, when we want it than to argue over an icon that admittedly had some skeletons in his closet but eventually did some good for society.

"Facts are stubborn things."

depends on one's point of view, as you say
 

"One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter"

Raymond- I hear you. My point about this guy is that he doesn't give a damn about endangered species in Africa, India, and other places. That's what I was referring to. It's one thing when you're talking about deer, hogs, turkeys, etc, as long as it's in hunting regulations....But the other is disgusting in my opinion....

Hopefully none of us will be held accountable for our lowest action, just as we will not be rewarded solely on our single greatest one.

Ali teetered on the verge of treason to his country and even to his brother (Frazier), but that energy was refocused in his post-boxing career and his life's work reached across those chasms in later years, for the betterment of much of society.

This thread needs to be over on Blowout.
And there is one there similar.

Ali was a great boxer. Maybe the Greatest. But not a great American.
Check out his links to Malcom X, his sudden conversion to Islam (religion covered) his video clips where he states, the Viet Cong aren't his enemies, the white people are.

The draft dodging isn't really an issue with me. Too many names to add to that list. Start with Kerry, Clinton and Bush.

But his life, as a whole, does not impress me.

If he is your hero, fine. So be it.
He just wasn't mine.

In closing, I salute Pat Tillman.

Google if you need to OP. :D

P.S. - "Cat Scratch Fever" :eek:

Kerry won a Purple Heart. Three actually. There is controversy about his military career, but he did not dodge the draft.

Kevin - Yeah, I'll agree with you as far as the endangered species are concerned. We have a millionaire here in town who has a big 'trophy' room including a stuffed elephant. What an a$$hole!

Unfortunately, there are a lot of those guys like that dentist who shot the lion last year, who are willing to pay top dollar to 'prove' something.

They use their dollars to first prey on needy individuals in third-world type economies to assist them which, in my opinion, just adds to what I call their crimes.

Aside from the endangered species, Nugent does eat what he shots and doesn't hunt for the afore-mentioned trophies. Just like me, I go through the Burger King Drive-Thru, bring it right home and 'consume' it while it's hot - without even thinking of hanging it on the wall or some such nonsense.

We can thank Ted for 'Cat-scratch Fever' too. :cool::eek:


.

with all of that time you spent replying to people -- many of whom had well thought out, valid counterpoints -- that dared to disagree with you, you could have served at least 50 people at a soup kitchen (e. in your original post). damn shame.

+1....

and you could have made a donation to a charity that helps poor people instead of spewing out BS ---I did not reply to many people who had counterpoints; I believe it was 2. And would it be better to avoid responding to people whose viewpoints I feel are dangerous to society? And what have you done to improve the lives of others lately????

I get the bitter feelings by some people pertaining Ali's dodging of the Vietnam War. I get it. But can anyone tell me why in the Hell we were there to begin with?? I know that this is not the point of the discussion, just hoping for some insight. By the way, I was a History major and I still don't understand it to this day. Also, even if you don't give Ali a pass for that, what about his humanitarian accomplishments decades after that? Bill L. posted it the best....

Don't even get me started about Walter Palmer.....

Really? A somewhat flawed or idealistic analogy. Britain was not North Vietnam, North Korea, the USSR, China, Japan, Germany, etc. Do you honestly feel that a nation full of conscientious objectors would have worked well for the South Vietnamese? Maybe you should ask the Cambodians how well that worked out? Or France?

It really depends largely on who you are 'conscientiously objecting' against and what's in it for them (one way or the other).

Vitriol
 

It is surprising to note the torrent of vitriol that has been unleashed, particularly from Mr. forazzurri2axz, who gratuitously described me as a "hater" for my temerity in failing to worship the memory of Muhammad Ali. How dare someone deviate from the politically correct party line, and allude to the fact that the great Ali was convicted of draft evasion!

This is one thing I can't get past, yet many in this thread want to put him on a pedestal and defend him. Or check out his opposition to mixed- race marriages. He said things, that if said by a white person, would be considered is bigoted and racist. Shhh, let's overlook that though because he's gone.

Well, just to be accurate, that conviction was unanimously reversed by the US Supreme Court, with one justice recusing.

Yes, and O.J. Simpson was acquitted of murder. That doesn't mean he didn't do it.

all caps because you are annoying me and to hammer home the point.

Funny you should ask what i have done to improve the lives of others lately? Mid-career i decided to transition to being a professional social worker so i could devote more of my time to work that i find meaningful, i.e., improving the lives of others.

One of the sad realities i've found as a social worker is that those who think of themselves as profoundly moral and tolerant versus most other humans are generally ignorant, obstinate, and intolerant [insert your picture here]. Ouch! That hurt a little, i know. It's ok, just keep on reminding yourself how righteous you are!

Right. Those are certainly equivalent circumstances. Great argument.

Yet while he was saying this, he was eating at the back of the diner...

He's not comparing the circumstances. He's making the point that just because a conviction is overturned or someone is acquited, that does make them innocent. Nice way to try and spin it though :rolleyes:

David- If this is your stance on Ali, your feelings about Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson must be staggering....Both of whom I have no use for by the way....

Kevin Mize just being his usual dumbass self.

Jackie Robinson had it way worse that Ali, yet he didnt call white people "the enemy"...nor did he dodge the draft.