PWCC Juggernaught
 

Watching the blitzkrieg of nice, graded PWCC cards on Ebay ending over the next day or 2, I couldn't help but spare a thought for the smaller dealer or collector who uses Ebay as the principal means to sell cards. It must be very difficult to compete, particularly in our sphere of interest, as PWCC continues to have these mega auctions. The cards themselves will draw interest or not but at a minimum buyer wallets seem to be voting in PWCC's favor. And they have provided a greater variety and choice of cards that heretofore existed on Ebay.

PWCC has some nice eye candy, I caught myself many times looking.
As a seller, maybe one needs to create their own high-end stickers.

Compete...???
 

What do you mean compete.....?

You just package up your stuff, send it to PWCC, they do ALL the work, they take ALL the risk in that Ebay minefield, and they pay you quickly EVERY month.

I do get a laugh sometimes when I see the same exact card in an Ebay store that PWCC just sold for 1.5 or 2x the price of the guys card in the Ebay store.

Why fight it?

Love it.

Peace, Mike

Allegedly.

I have consigned with Brent several times recently and he does a great job. Very easy guy to work with and he is easily reached. I did ok overall. Some stuff ended up much lower than what I would have expected and others sold for a bit more than I had been asking for the cards in my eBay store.

Admittedly I have not given him Clemente, Mantle and Mays rookies in PSA 8s but the prices he gets on a good deal of his stuff is unbelievable, literally. No slam against Brent but there is no way money is actually changing hands on some of this stuff. See the same bidder ids running up stuff, many with lots of retractions and those same listings end up being well over VCP highest sales within hours of listings. Sorry but it is highly suspicious.

Smoke and mirrors? :D

Agreed. I gave him a small sampling of stuff, so probably not enough to run a good test on (5 cards), but I was VERY disappointed in the final sales prices on my 5 card consignment. No record breaking prices set for me, and I was thinking I probably could have done just as good, if not better, selling it myself. I am dumbfounded when I see the record breaking prices, especially on the lower end stuff (PSA 5 and lower).

Who says you have to be in competition? The market is what it is, with or without PWCC or any other individual seller. As you said, the cards themselves draw the interest. You don't have to get into a head to head battle with another seller in order to be successful in your area of interest. Unless you're drilling down into some very specific niche, the field of baseball card collecting is far too vast for one dealer to dominate so completely that their meer presence makes it difficult for others to exist.

the record stuff is really for that top 5% that we are all watching....none of us are looking at 1974 topps psa 8 commons..

psa 5s are all not ower end stuff....a psa 5 centered mickey mantle 1951 bowman is not like other psa 5s for example..there are plenty of psa 5s that bring in thousands..

when we arent consigning our water front property cards but are bidding on water front property cards than its more likely we will see record setting prices on cards we are bidding on and getting lower than we expected (even though we werent able to sell the cards on our own for more than what we got) for cards we are consigning

Are we all watching the same 5%? :confused: The world record prices are not limited to what you call waterfront property cards in PWCC's auctions.

yes we are all watching those top 5%..not everyone looking at the same cards but all together looking at them...can be records highs on some other cards..but for the most part its true....when we consign a 1952 Topps standard Frank House PSA 8 of the world i wouldnt expect a record high, in fact commons are trending down...if its a 1952 Mays topps PSA 5..theres a better chance for a record high..or green cobb.etc.......yet people complain they arent getting what the card is 'worth' when consigning the Frank Houses of the world ...and not understanding why that happened considering others are getting record highs on the Mays.....these cards are just being used as examples/symbols

I consigned a small group (7) of cards to PWCC to try them out. While there are still several days to go, one of the cards has already eclipsed the asking price from when I listed it on the BST. I will already clear more than I had asked on the BST even after PWCC fees come out.

Brent seems to be a good guy. He has responded to my email questions...which is more than a lot of big ebay sellers. And somehow he gets a constant flow of quality cardboard.

But with ebay auctions there is opportunity for shenanigans...and it does seem to occur somewhat regularly.

What I find unusual compared to other sellers is the frenzied bidding on some of the high dollar cards almost from the instant they go live. Draw your own conclusions, but for example, 43 bids here within the first few hours of posting. Starting literally one minute after it went live.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1986-Fleer-B...wAAOSw1DtXLUAG

You seem to think I was not happy with the results of my consignments, which is not true. I am also not comparing my sales through PWCC or under my own ID to PWCC's results. My comparison is to the data within VCP and is not based on your 5% figure--whatever is represented in that figure:confused:. Commons are dead for everyone. I am talking about star cards, not even nice examples for the grade and not all in high grade. The listings have the same bidding patterns, with similar ids appearing over and over, auctions with bidders with bid retractions which get run up within the first day of bidding while other cards like them lag behind.

I get it you like Brent and he can do no wrong. I like Brent too but there is clearly something going on with too many of his listings.

yup...that's the kind of suspicious bidding one regularly sees with his big buck cards. I just wonder how many auctions this bidder upper has won in general and what types of items they were.

And that card looks more like a 9! :D

At one point, it probably was.:D

It seems to me that, at least at the moment, that PWCC is the biggest player in Ebay pre-war auctions, bringing far more vintage material to the marketplace than existed before their arrival. And as they say (whoever they are), " if you want to play the game, it helps to know the dealer."

Holy crap, $27,000 with 9 days to go!:eek:

Still it has occurred on more than a few occasions..someone brings up an auction and wondering who the heck was bidding on a card at a certain price in a pwcc auction..and all of the sudden a net54 member says they were bidding or their friend or someone that commonly bid against was the one bidding so it was in fact legit.....i not sure if it was an pwcc auction but recently there was a net54 board member shocked on biddiing results on a wrestling RC card wondering how the bids could be legit then another board member attested that they were legit..

So mostly OT, but in response to that linked Jordan rookie: were basketball cards in the 80s not over-produced junk? Because my Kirby Puckett rookie card is probably worth less than the top loader I keep it in.

There are something like 15,000 Jordans graded by PSA from memory. Not exactly scarce.

If 300M people worldwide (* that could be a small/large number) would want one, then it is a scarce card, relatively speaking.

300 million collectors? Uh, I don't think so.

Kirby Puckett is not exactly Michael Jordan in terms of how many people collect him.

I didn't say that. I said 300M people worldwide would want one. I would guess far more than that have heard of him and a lot of those would know his rookie (first card) would be valuable. It might be a stretch but it might not be, actually. I would imagine close to a billion people have heard of him.

Leon didn't say 300 million collectors, he said 300 million people. The Jordan card transcends collections. There are probably thousands of "people" who only own one card, and that card is the '86 Jordan.

And in the past 5 years we've had, and I'm guessing here, thousands of "investors" who are also not collectors, buying this card as an ego boast.

So, 300 million might be high or low, but Jordan's rookie card is on a entirely different supply/demand curve.

And BTW, I do not own one.

Thanks :).....and I don't own one either but obviously agree.

And edit to add, the more Lebron James lowers his shoulder and bull-dozes his way to the basket and refs swallow the whistle; then shots 25% from 3-point; the Jordan card goes up. Jordan created his own shots, Lebron doesn't.

It's an absurd number IMO.

Eh...not sure how much that has to do with the value of Jordan cards. So much of Jordan's legacy and his aura is based on the fact that he was 6-0 in NBA finals, not 2-4.

Remember, there are over a billion people in China. And they watch NBA basketball. So does France and most of Europe. Jordan is a worldwide star. And I would say that 50K people that think they have this card actually have a reprint. It's up there with the Wagner, I'm sure, in the Top 5 of reprinted/faked cards.

He does advertise the bigger cards, and they're all.listed on his site for days before they go live on ebay. A lot of collectors, myself included, check this site and know what's coming. I put an early bid in so the card shows up in the buying section of the my ebay page and I get the alerts. Perhaps others are doing the same thing, which drives the bidding up quickly. It then flattens out until close to the end.

p***j( 61Feedback score is 50 to 99) US $14,500.00
May-07-16 19:46:19 PDT

Member Id: p***j( 61Feedback score is 50 to 99) US $14,200.00
May-07-16 19:46:14 PDT

Member Id: p***j( 61Feedback score is 50 to 99) US $14,000.00
May-07-16 19:39:19 PDT

Member Id: p***j( 61Feedback score is 50 to 99) US $13,000.00
May-07-16 19:39:14 PDT

Member Id: p***j( 61Feedback score is 50 to 99) US $12,500.00
May-07-16 19:37:42 PDT

Member Id: p***j( 61Feedback score is 50 to 99) US $10,000.00
May-07-16 19:37:08 PDT

Member Id: p***j( 61Feedback score is 50 to 99) US $9,000.00
May-07-16 19:37:04 PDT

Member Id: p***j( 61Feedback score is 50 to 99) US $8,000.00
May-07-16 19:37:01 PDT

Member Id: p***j( 61Feedback score is 50 to 99) US $7,000.00
May-07-16 19:36:57 PDT

Member Id: p***j( 61Feedback score is 50 to 99) US $6,000.00
May-07-16 19:36:45 PDT

Member Id: p***j( 61Feedback score is 50 to 99) US $5,000.00
May-07-16 19:36:41 PDT

Member Id: p***j( 61Feedback score is 50 to 99) US $4,000.00
May-07-16 19:36:37 PDT

Member Id: p***j( 61Feedback score is 50 to 99) US $3,000.00
May-07-16 19:36:34 PDT

Member Id: p***j( 61Feedback score is 50 to 99) US $2,000.00
May-07-16 19:36:31 PDT

Member Id: p***j( 61Feedback score is 50 to 99) US $1,000.00
May-07-16 19:36:16 PDT

Member Id: p***j( 61Feedback score is 50 to 99) US $100.00
May-07-16 19:36:13 PDT

Member Id: p***j( 61Feedback score is 50 to 99) US $1.00
May-07-16 19:31:46 PDT

AND THEN

Member Id: p***j( 61Feedback score is 50 to 99) US $20,500.00
May-07-16 19:58:07 PDT

Member Id: p***j( 61Feedback score is 50 to 99) US $20,300.00
May-07-16 19:58:05 PDT

Member Id: p***j( 61Feedback score is 50 to 99) US $20,100.00
May-07-16 19:51:51 PDT

AND THEN

p***j( 61Feedback score is 50 to 99) US $22,500.00
May-07-16 20:22:29 PDT

Member Id: p***j( 61Feedback score is 50 to 99) US $22,200.00
May-07-16 20:22:26 PDT

Member Id: p***j( 61Feedback score is 50 to 99) US $22,000.00
May-07-16 20:21:36 PDT

Member Id: p***j( 61Feedback score is 50 to 99) US $21,700.00
May-07-16 20:21:33 PDT

Member Id: p***j( 61Feedback score is 50 to 99) US $21,500.00
May-07-16 20:21:30 PDT

Member Id: p***j( 61Feedback score is 50 to 99) US $21,200.00
May-07-16 20:21:28 PDT

Member Id: p***j( 61Feedback score is 50 to 99) US $21,000.00
May-07-16 20:21:24 PDT

Member Id: p***j( 61Feedback score is 50 to 99) US $20,700.00
May-07-16 20:18:47 PDT

I guess with that many bids he will at least be sure to get the notifications. :)

Yes that one certainly looks suspicious. Brent has come to this site and claimed that bidding patterns such as this are often legitimate and that for some reason there are bidders out there who as a practice place small incremental bids until they become the high bidder. Without actually investigating further we can't know for sure. If this same bidder retracted the bid that became the high bid that would be fairly definitive.

And yes, this bidder certainly won't have to worry about not receiving the end of auction notification.

I bid that way sometimes. Whenever I bid from my phone I just keep hitting the bid button sometimes over and over.

That bidder may just really want to that MJ rookie card. He also bid on that card from PWCC last month before getting crushed:

Link

He with the most bids does not win. It does not benefit a buyer to bid early, especially often, on an eBay auction let alone one from Brent who lets all of his auctions go to the end. I would question the bidders tactics even if legit.

This type of bidding pattern can be found in way too many of Brent's listings. Again, not saying they are all done to shill but his coming on here and addressing one or two auctions does not mean in all instances this pattern is legit.

FWIW, I am happy with my first pickup from Brent and team last night............

So what good did the 20 bids before his highest one do him? And why did he stop?

I agree that not everything that looks suspicious necessarily is. All I initially said was that one sees this pattern of frenzied early bidding on high end cards in PWCC fairly commonly.

I agree that this strategy doesn't make much sense, and is not one that I utilize, aside from the one early bid I mentioned I like to place.

I also agree that some bids such as these may very well be placed by consignors shilling their own auctions. My main point is that there is no way for us to know for sure without more information, and that there have been instances in which foul play was assumed but there was none.

as long as the consignors are charged like everybody else if the 'win' their own item i fine with it..

Coming from a guy obsessed with market values that is really surprising, given the potential to run up and manipulate said market values.

Jesse, I agree that we do not know but that does not mean we should not be suspicious or curious. Someone figured out that shill bidding was going on at Mastro and everyone thought it was just business as usual. Seeing irregular bidding patters, same bidder ids over and over, high amounts of bid retractions or bids and it resulting in crushing record prices over and over (and not just on Jake's arbitrary 5% figure) certainly makes me wonder. T206 threads are the only thing here that out number those questioning PWCC but that does not mean people should turn a blind eye and not raise questions.

What about the fact that if this practice being done in such high volume it results in truly giving a distorted and severely inflated market value if bids are being placed simply to set new market highs? That seems to be more dangerous than simply shilling your consignments to maximize your returns.

I agree with your assessment. I also remember Brent saying that he doesn't have access as the seller to the same information we do regarding the bid history as the seller. I don't sell on ebay and can't confirm that. He did say if someone emails him an example like the one Peter posted he will investigate, respond, and take action if appropriate. Maybe we should do that more often and see what happens.

If Brent did post that, then he is mistaken. As the seller he can see the entire ids of each bidder. He also is alerted to bid retractions as they occur, where as we would need to dig for that info. As far as seeing the number of bid retractions a bidder has, he simply needs to log out or open a separate window in private browsing and click on the id in question and he can see the bid retraction history for any of his bidders. This is what eBay suggests sellers do if they seek that information.

Thats right, it was regarding the number of retractions a bidder has that he said he doesn't see. Either way with 10k listings in monthly auctions it would be hard to monitor the bidding history and patterns for them all. If we are concerned as a community about shilling in his auctions and others I still say it's a good idea to take him up on his offer to look into to any suspicious activity reported to him. As big as his business has gotten any time I have reached out to him he has responded personally in a timely manner.

We have had this discussion many times about large ebay sellers. Yes they have too many auctions to monitor each and every one, but on the other hand it's very easy to put your auctions in order by price and check the top 25 or 40 or whatever, which is where -- if any bad stuff is going on -- it's going to be most prevalent and obvious anyhow. The head of a business is accountable. The excuse that it's too big for them to be accountable doesn't work for Tim Cook and it certainly won't work for an ebay seller. IMO.

I don't think Brent would make that excuse either, by the way.

Like Jake, I can see that Brent can do no wrong with you either, which is fine. I am not saying Brent is doing wrong but it is his business and there are things he can do, 10,000+ listings a month or not, to make sure the integrity of his listings are not compromised. If people want to protect their consignments or establish false market values by bidding up their consignments, they will find a way to do that with Brent taking all the steps he can to ensure it does not happen. My gut tells me there is not a whole lot of incentive to do so and so far absolutely no consequences should steps not be taken to keep the listings clean. Brent makes money and gets future consignments, eBay makes their cut and collectors get the cards they want so it is a win win even if they are paying far more than the card would have otherwise sold for.

Ok, I have won a big card in two of the last PWCC auctions. I watched it closely, there was a big run with only seconds left and I was able to get in my winning bid at the bell. Both cards I was happy to win and both cards I spent exactly $35 over what I planned to spend. Coincidence?? Most likely, but having bid on dozens of PWCC auctions and they all end exactly the same.

The problem with shills bids or consignors simply running up the bids to a "fair" value is that many people find it fun (or valuable) to try to get a "bargain" or maybe even a "steal" from time to time, to balance the times you overpay or value of a card plunges. If consignor bidding up the price eliminates any chance for a bargain it discourages people from even looking at what to bid on. PWCC has a reputation for getting high prices, which is fine, except that it also has a reputation for rarely--unless you really bid a lot and are super alert--providing that big bargain. I've stopped paying as much attention because of that, while still winning a card here and there, though rarely at bargain price.

In response to Greg and Peter, I'm not saying he can't do any wrong, or shouldn't be held accountable if something improper or illegal is happening in his auctions. I'm saying he offered to look into any allegation. If either if you suspect something in this auction, or others as you mentioned, why not email him the evidence and see what he has to say?

Problem is that as a bidder you do not know if the people you are bidding against are engaged in spirited bidding or if they are simply protecting their consignments or trying to establish significantly higher market values. Getting an item for less than you are willing to pay is great but that is not always necessary for all purchases to be worthwhile.

That is true. I tend to post comments on these type of threads that are pro-pwcc because I feel he is unfairly singled out. This type of activity most likely takes place at every major auction house and in auctions from most if not all ebay sellers who accept consignments. Heritage states they shill their own auctions in their terms and conditions. I wouldn't be surprised to find out this is the case with others. I don't remember many other AH owners discussing shilling and what they try to do to stop it, other than Brent, and I feel he does deserve some credit for that at least.

And that big bargain to the buyer is the seller getting crushed....sellers never complain about getting crushed..they love to give bargains......lets face its an auction..we are going to have to pay market price and/or what the consignor is willing to really let it go for .....private sales are the way to go if you are looking for deals or buying in bulk, jessie listed his clemente rookie for 7k on net54.....not sure why people are looking for 'deals' on ebay auctions with no or fake reserves...why not buy the card direct and pay up and not worry about losing an auction in the last few secs...

you bid against the coke machine in auto auctions with no 'reserve'...

I get that everyone loves to get a bargain, and I'm not pro-shilling, but what's the real harm if PWCC starts a 52 Mantle worth $175,000 at 99 cents and the consignor or his brother quickly run the card up to $100,000. You didn't think the whole world was asleep and you were going to get the card at $19.99 did you?
OK, attack me . . . .

The problem isn't running it up to $100,000 but to full price of $175,000. That's not bidding, that's starting an auction at $175,000 in reality, not 99 cents.... No one's calling for a large number of "big bargains"--but without even the chance for one many many lose interest. As you say, just wait for the same card to appear as a BIN at the same price, or lower.

Many houses have caught a great deal of flack here over the years when record prices were being achieved over and over. Those raising the issue did so simply based on the final price of the auctions and had nothing else to go on.

There is far more for us to see with auctions conducted on eBay, in spite of ebay putting bidders at a great disadvantage by blocking IDs and removing the ability to search the buying history of a user. PWCC is also not the only eBay consignment seller who has been questioned either.

I think we're all in agreement it would be nice if all ebay sellers and auction houses would do more to prevent shilling and market manipulation.

As to Jake's comment on the Clemente I'm certainly glad no one took me up on the offer here. Although it appears I may have sold it a day two soon based on the PWCC 7 and the one that's up at Heritage now. Still I can't complain, I was very happy with what I got at the time it sold.

I have no idea one way or another about pwcc, so I am not commenting on their merit. However there seems to be some opinion that he is too big to manage his business. With that mentality the big chain fast food places should not be accountable if they sold horse burgers with ground up glass in them? A person is ALWAYS responsible for that which they represent

Mark Medlin

I agree. The " too many items to follow" argument doesn't fly with me. You are either a conscientious, ethical and diligent business or you're not.

Here's my two cents on PWCC. That was my T206 Southern League sub-set break up that was just sold on PWCC. Most were Old Mill Backs. I did not post the sub-set on Net54 but offered to a couple people and a local guy near me. I even offered to one guy at a small loss to what I had in it. Seems most want you to give it away. Took the risk and gave to PWCC and was pleased at the results. No really big $ cards, but big to me in total. I did not not bid on any of my cards nor did any of my friends. Some sold for more than I had in them and some sold for less. In the end it came out on the plus side enough to cover the fee and leave me with a small profit. It was fun putting together, but time to sell considering I'm in the process of buying a house. If you consider that PWCC's price in total for the sub-set could be close to "Market Price" than the others that it was offered could have had it at a bargain. I can understand shill bidding on 1 card like a Mantle or Cobb, but it is hard to believe Brent can handle a big stable of people shill bidding on all the quantity of cards he handles month to month. Sorry for the long...........but there were bargains on some that I lost $.

Thanks for reading,
Charlie

To further my post above, if you truly want to make certain there are absolutely no improprieties then cost is involved. Additional staff and procedures. These would drive the cost up and result in higher fees and likely less material offered to sell due to the decreased net return. We can't have our cake and eat it too. If you want a stream lined organization that has a low cost structure and gets material out of the woodwork then you will have the risk of being shilled. If you want to remove all risk then cost could increase due to less available items on the market.

I am in no way condoning shilling nor am I condemning it. It is a fact of life. The best way is to set a price you are willing to pay for an item and don't breach that threshold. Period.

If you compare other industries that have setup regulations to avoid graft, it is almost always at a cost. I don't believe this is a problem we can ever solve globally due to personal greed. I am a firm believer the only thing you can do is to manage your own affairs and have the personal wherewithal to stay within your limits.

Mark Medlin

Sounds like you did ok, had fun, and came out fine with PWCC. Thanks for the update. There is no doubt most of ebay auctions are ok (to me) but there is also a lot of nefarious activity going on too. It's sort of a mine field but it's also a good time to be in the hobby!!

PWCC Juggernaught
 

I always audibly sigh when I read this statement on Net54. And I have been sighing a lot in the last year or two.

That price you are willing to pay entered your mind after years of price manipulation caused by shilling. Even if by some miracle you have never been shilled directly, those artificially inflated historical prices have caused every card you have ever bought to be more expensive than it should have been.

Of course, I have no idea what to do about any of it.

Leon.............You pretty much hit the nail on the head for me. I've always been a collector and have bought but never sold on my account on ebay. I have sold through others on ebay, NET54, CU, & B&L to change the collection or downsize. But sometimes as you get older things change and you also wonder if your family will dump the collection for .10 on the dollar. So you down size and keep some of it with instructions, but not so much as to over whelm the family.

Regards to all,
Charlie

Daryl,

I fully understand your point and can appreciate that view. However, since long before any of us in this forum were even a glimmer in our parents eyes, sellers have been manipulating buyers to create additional margin or to mitigate losses. I stand by my statement that if you never pay more than you desire to spend, your disappointment level should be minimal even if the values crash.

If you just think about the sports card market only, without buyer manipulation mantle rookies may still be trading at 900 bucks. Although that is a neat idea, how many people would be scrambling to put first rate material on the market with little to no return.

And I used buyer manipulation on purpose. Shilling is not the only method to create false value. Sales pressure, collusion, hype, misleading statements, inventory control and many more, all contribute to price increases. But when items begin trading at the new levels it is no longer false value. The first buyer is the dupe and he (she) sets the bar. The others are now paying market price.

P.S. I'm not an Econ professor Or play one on tv, but I did stay at a holiday inn express last night.

I'm a bit of a rookie here..........my one cent.

PWCC and Probstein seem like the only two sellers on Ebay
that sell high-graded hard to find stuff. Otherwise it's only found
on BINs for crazy A$$ prices. Most are not priced to sell.

I've bought from PWCC several times and was happy with what I got.
But maybe it's because I don't mind paying a little premium on what I'm
looking for. And it's monthly event. Don't have to wait for the twice yearly AH events with their 20% buyer's premium.
I'm not looking to get a great deal or to flip cards. I always look forward to PWCC Auctions and seeing Brent's logo along side a card.
Probstein too.........
Also I dig their hard shelled delivery envelopes. Always thought bubble wrapped cards were not safe enough.
With my last shipment my 3 cards were put in two bubble wrapped envelopes inside of a hard shelled envelope.

Perfect!!

++ The shilling complaints are getting tiresome. My guess is shilling is rampant on e-bay, and 2x that at AH. Your going to live a long stressful life if you continue to think you were shilled on a winning bid. Update; you were.

For your own mental health, put a snipe in at what you feel is a fair amount, then walk away. Stay away from AH's, especially ones that have multiple endings to their auctions, and certainly the ones that actually TELL you in the fine print you will be shilled. Don't come complaining on this board, just look in the mirror.

And if your using retirement money or your mortgage payment to buy cards, then no-one on this board can help you.

If nothing else, PWCC will rise or fall based on a continuing or increasing flow of quality consignments and the realized satisfaction of sellers. PWCC's attractions have been well spelled out for buyers and sellers alike, but I think it is safe to say they have emerged as a viable alternative to the AH's in a relatively short time.