1909 E90-1 Cy Young — Real/Fake
 

Hey guys,

Saw this on ebay tonight and wanted to get your thoughts:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1909-11-E-90...YAAOSwiYFXFCH0

Looking to land a Fan Craze or this one but would rather have one graded just to ease my mind on authenticity.

very...very...BAD!

What are the tell tale signs?

[REMOVED] This forum used to be great, but it's awful now. Arbitrary enforcement of rules by the moderator, plus people who don't know anything about vintage cards and don't care posting over & over again.

Not to mention the stellar feedback.

That's the sense I got. Thank you all.

What?
 

He ain't even got no feedback! My BS filter is set to a much more sensitive level thanks to the Net54 crowd. Thanks guys!

here's a real nice one!

Note how different the background looks. Shadows etc.

and the "quaity" of the type in the name, team...the fake is different...look closely...not the right color either.

Mine

I thought the dot pattern was wrong and I haven't seen registration look like that when outta whack.

which is real?

Any of you selling yours?? :)

Suh-Weeeeet!!!!!

right one

I had one but sold it a few years ago for nothing. I never loved it anyway...it wasn't a particularly nice example. It's one of my favorites and I need another one!

Greg...I like yours a lot!!!!!

Thanks Pete. Hope all is well.

I've tried for a couple on ebay but missed out in the closing seconds over the last 6 months.

What do you guys think about the rest of his cards? I saw the zero feedback but I thought the cards looked good. I didn't notice the Young admittedly.

All bad, IMO. All exhibit similar corner wear....

What about this one? I won it and it hasn't shipped yet, so I can probably just get a refund if it's no good. I'll be a bit embarrassed if everyone thinks it is bad and I missed it.

Could just be bias now but the red looks too bright and solid.

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That's what I noticed about his T206s. Every one is worn in the same manner and to the same degree. :rolleyes:

Yes it is!!

Hmm, hate to be a contrarian, but not all of these cards are fakes. I actually think they look fine to me. His scans wash them out quite a bit and don't appear to show the details on the corners.

Don't know the seller. Obviously zero feedback is never a good sign, but there's no way his sold T206 are fakes. T205s look good. I don't see any problems with the E95s.

The E90 Young I'd like to see in person.

I don't think these are reprints.

Rob

Take a gamble, Luke. I vote real.

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Not all E90 Youngs have background shading like the examples posted earlier in this thread. For example, assuming PSA didn't slab a reprint:

http://milehighcardco.com/1909_e90_1...-lot39204.aspx

It wouldn't take a whole lot of editing to fix the horrible picture used in the Ebay listing to make it look pretty good. I also wonder why anyone would make a misregistered reprint, that seems a little too sneaky (though not impossible - bring on the scans of the misregistered reprints!!). The 0 feedback score is worrisome, but with a 14-day return policy you can mail one of these to PSA or SGC and know before the 14 days are up if you need to start your return through Ebay.

I should add that I don't have any e95s/e90s so take the above with a grain of salt.

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it's not cut and dry as some of you are making it out to be. i agree with bill they are definitely not the mass produced dark color oven baked variety...but i also agree with robert i would like to see the young in a more natural lighting. the washed out colors could just be a bad scan (or a very good home made copy).

his e95 cobb looks real to me, but from feedback and some questionable stuff i would like to see them in person. a couple look kinda weird, but a few are 100% good to me.

edit: checking his ended auctions the t206 mathewson and e95 cicotte is 100% good...of course in my opinion (since i'm an auto guy now giving my opinion to their authenticty).

Why couldn't the seller be salting his auctions with low dollar but REAL cards and high dollar fakes?

David

I also should have added that there are a number of red flags like this one, the 0 feedback , etc.

Luke, if you don't try to cancel the sale I suggest taking a clear video of the entire outside of the package to show it is sealed and open it all without letting anything leave the shot. At least that way you can prove what was in the box and that you don't get one of those rough T205s instead. Can't be too safe.

Personally I wouldn't trust any raw vintage card from a seller who is listing obvious fakes and trying to pass them off as real cards. Add in the 0 feedback and there is no way I take this gamble. And I like to gamble. The payoff isn't high enough and it doesn't seem worth the shipping and grading fees to find out. My advice would be to back out if you can.

What's even more disturbing is the Cobb has $800 inactive bids. This guy must be rubbing his hands together saying "Suckas!"

I meant "in active bids"

I vote bad seller with scans of real cards. Whether he has them and would (could) send them to a buyer is anyone's guess. But, I don't see any fakes.

With respect to the Young, the corners are not "uniformly rounded" particularly when you look at the reverse. In addition, the dot matrix pattern on the face is a strong indicator of genuineness. Reprints do not capture the black newsprint dots. There is definitely something off about the seller, but it may just be an old time collector listing his cards for the first time on eBay. If Luke gets his E95 Young, I believe he will be very happy with it!

The vast majority at least that I have seen and now see on a search have that shading. Why would some, presumably manufactured by the same process, not have it?

you guys should go back to arguing about whether jackie robinson is a hof'er and stop trolling the OP...it's a nice young OP i expect some late biddings don't think you'd be getting it for $800 listed price.

terrible looks like a topps chrome card smiles

Possibly copied from this one?

http://goodwinandco.com/1909-e90-1-a...-lot24234.aspx

It appears to have the same misregistration, the same lower border break, and the same red alignment mark at the center top. But there's a small difference on the back.
Not that that's a lock, mass production being what it is there should be others that are nearly identical. But combined with the other stuff it's a pretty big red flag.

I found it by being lazy just like a reprinter would be, Google look at images, their large scans are probably just about good enough to print well.

Steve B

That looks like an exact hit to me. Look at the upper right border, in the white on the outside, on the edge. There is a telltale dark mark at the exact same place on both cards. At least that is what it seems to look like. Also, directly across, horizontally, is another telltale spot of white on the black border. Those things pointed out I am still not 100% on this as the areas don't match up perfectly (almost perfectly, but not perfectly, from the scans). I doubt I would take a chance on any of them without a return policy. But with one, buyers should be protected. One other thing that is in favor of it NOT being the same card as in Goodwin is the right border of the current one is thinner than the left border, and on the Goodwin one the right border is thicker than the left one.

Goodwin has the typical shading.

I understand there are some very dodgy E90-1 Young - Boston football helmet variation cards that have hit the market. Apparently, they originated somewhere in Texas. Caveat Emptor, Baby

Look at the misregistration at the shoulders, the Ebay card isn't a copy of the Goodwin card. The Ebay card has tilted misregistration that goes into the border on the left side and is further away from the border on the right than the Goodwin card. Pretty close though.

Peter - I don't know why some lack the background shading - I am definitely not an expert on E cards. I just know that one of the first few that I found, which was slabbed by PSA, also lacks it. I can say that I think the cards with the shading look much cooler.

That's funny. Nice one, John.

As for the difference in the shading on various cards, I think some of it has to do with the scan or picture made....They almost all seem to have varying degrees of some shading and I think in person all of them might (I could be wrong). The scan in the holder below is from the auction I bought it from. The other scan is one I just made while typing this post :). I have completely neutral settings on my scanner (pre-set I guess). In person the one I just scanned doesn't have as dark of shading as it has in in this scan. It seems darker on the screen than in hand. But my eyes are getting old too!!

The only thing worse than posting that card again is posting it TWICE again in the same post.

i asked the seller for better pics, figuring if he doesn't reply then it's junk...but he did update his pics and it should be clear to anyone now the card is real as rain.

and peter, the shading is not the smoking gun on the young.

http://net54baseball.com/attachment....1&d=1443990789http://www.net54baseball.com/attachm...8&d=1444513425

+1

Watch it. ..posting pics is easy

Agreed, all of his current listings appear authentic to me.

This listing had all of the hallmarks of being a scam. So is this one case where a zero feedback seller, with vintage HOF cards is legit?

I did once get a nice raw T206 O'Hara STL on ebay cheap because of a bad scan, terrible description, and low feedback seller. It does happen. It's hard to say that this is a trustworthy seller, but I think those are pics of real cards that he is showing.

The seller of this card is russelschreibe0 and he has been a good friend of mine for 25 years. I helped him set up his ebay account to sell a collection of cards that belonged to his father in law for a long time. The seller is 90 years old. I took the pictures and did not scan them. You seem to be worried about feedback on his part but check my seller feedback (whoopi1947). I will vouch for his honesty. Have you ever heard of ebay buyer protection program? If there is a problem with an item ebay will insure that it is resolved no matter if there is a 14 day return policy or not, especially if it is misrepresented. You might all be a nice bunch of guys but it sure sounds like a mob with pitchforks and torches. You are welcome to bid on the cards that we have listed but if you are too paranoid just let the other people on ebay buy the cards that you could have. Some of your members have bought some of these cards and we want to thank you and insure you that if there is a problem with your purchase we will make it right.

Good to know all that.

Checking out your feedback, it looks like you sell a lot of different stuff, just like I did when I was actively selling. The first few are mostly cool old industrial type things, another hobby of mine. :)

That's a good field to be into, especially as a seller. Cards are much tougher. Old machinery and such is hard to fake, so it's not much of a problem.
However in cards........There's a LOT of sellers who specialize in reprints, and while it can be done reasonably, it seems like the majority of them use language that might make a buyer think there's a chance a card might be real. Others simply omit that it's a reprint and a few put them out there as real. And many of them constantly shift accounts, so a new account with expensive stuff gets some extra scrutiny.
Constantly seeing people who don't know better pay hundreds for either a worn commercially made reprint or something someone made on their printer at home leads to some of us keeping the pitchfork and torch right by the front door.

Yes, Ebay has a buyer protection plan, and it works well at times, but going through the process can be a nuisance.

The key as you've seen is really good pictures or scans. There's good stuff with poor scans, but again, many of the less upright sellers hide the clues behind poor cellphone pics.
Really good pictures eliminate the real/fake confusion and give a better idea of condition. I'd go so far as to say that good pictures add a lot to the final price, maybe not much for the less expensive cards, but for the really nice ones it will make a difference.


Steve B

Best of luck with the auctions - it is an excellent collection of cards.

I don't think people mean to unnecessarily pile on. The problem is that a zero feedback rating with a bunch of clean, quality, somewhat rare cards is often a red flag. You might have been better off actually listing the cards yourself through your account, which has more of a documented history, and giving him the money if that was an option. I'm guessing that would have drawn more bids.

I don't think the intent of the warning threads is to call every suspect listing as fraudulent so much as it is to protect other buyers. And while eBay does have a Buyer Protection system, it has no measures in place to really deal with things such as sellers giving buyers an empty package that was tracked, buyers returning items and sellers stating they received an empty envelope/package, etc. It's true they often side with the buyer, but not always.

Again, best of luck with the auctions. Those are some great looking cards.

this is/was how you pick up nice cards for bargains. identify gems from crappy scans or risky sellers that the slab heads would not touch...but it's getting tougher. this is how you get an off t206 common lot in hunts monthly auction on the last day going from $500-$600 to 8-9k, people getting smarter.

this seller certainly knew the card's value and priced it aggressively, but if it was lower and you could've picked up a nice VG+ card for a psa1 price then you would just keep your mouth shut and let people think it's a fake...or continue to shout that it's a reprint.

Well, give Leon some credit. He posted twice in this thread before even posting his card. I was amazed at the restraint!

;) :)

Did somebody say something about nice E90-1 Cy Young cards???

http://zwsmith.weebly.com/uploads/2/...84882_orig.jpg

whoopi1947,
Thank you for checking in on this discussion board. My recommendation for you is that if you have other cards of this age and condition, you should consider sending them in to a 3rd party grading service (PSA or SGC) and having them authenticate the cards and grade them for you. This will give buyers no reason to avoid your and your friend's auctions, and the bids will rise.

If you need someone to explain the grading services to you, feel free to ask questions here or send me a direct message. If you sell a card which books ungraded in VG for $50, the same card could go for $10 if people think it's a fake or for $100-300 if it's graded VG-EX by a reputable grading service.

Spending a little cash up front to have your cards graded should reap benefits down the road.

I agree. Assuming all of that is true it would have been a good idea to advise your friend to grade those cards before selling on Ebay. If not all of them, at least the Cobb and Young. His expected return would have been much higher.

I think the seller is going to do fine as a result of this thread .

Gentleman,
I've Only look'd at the Cards Shown Here,
Both the E90-1 & E95 have the Same Papar stock...
And That can Only Tell me THaT the Cards are Fake!
E90-1 Corner's Nevar Fray Like that...
T206's oN the Other Hand Do!

ThaTs Where It Ends There Fir me!!!

The Rest is Just Piling iT oN...

You Guyz Should Listen ta Mr. Peter U.!

It's Been a Brilliant Day Aye :) !!!

It was killing me too!!

Everyone has their opinion, mine is different. At this point in my hobby (been doing this for 30 years now - since '86), it doesnt matter to me as a buyer if a card is graded or not - especially on mid grade stuff like this.

A couple weeks ago I bought this graded Lajoie on eBay. I didnt buy it because it was graded and it didnt influence my purchasing decision whatsoever.

http://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/kzIAAO...R2/s-l1600.jpg

As soon as I received it, it came out of its ridiculous plastic tomb. Did I lose money? I could honestly care less. I dont need some TPGs stamp of approval to tell me its real and especially tell me the condition. Then again, the corners are evenly rounded so it could be fake :rolleyes:

As Pete said, the seller of these cards will do just fine.

Free from its tomb (and after a little bath to remove tobacco stains)...

His goal at this point is to sell the cards on eBay. So the TPGs are very valuable in his situation. They're not for everyone. But they are for this case.

You're inferring that the cards will sell for more if they're graded. That's where we disagree. If they were higher grade cards, I could see your point. But the Young appears somewhere between VG to VG/EX (between a PSA 3-4). I think you will see after the auction is over, it will sell for somewhere between what a PSA 3 or 4 would normally sell for.

The point I was making with the Lajoie was that I would have paid the same thing for it even if it would have been raw. The fact that it was graded didn't bring any more money for the card.

I used to think the sane thing you did, but I've lost confidence in all the TPGs and their opinion means nothing to me anymore. I'm also finding that there are several others who feel the same way.

Ok, so if there were 50 people who were in the bidding for this item, and 10 of them thought the card was real, and the other 40 thought it was a likely fake, it would end up getting to the same amount? That is the crux of my argument. The other 40 bidders would drop out at 1/3 of the card value or less, leaving the 10 of you to bid it up to 70-80% of the value.
Getting it authenticated by a TPG brings in the other 40 bidders, who will now stay in and possibly bid it to 110-150% of SMR book value (for the rarer/HOF pieces).
This is a brand new seller's friend of vintage cards ON EBAY. That is who I was addressing my recommendation to.

You're equating the number of bidders with the final bid amount. That's not how it works. It only takes 2 bidders to drive the price of the card (or any other item) up.

We'll just have to disagree. But let's revisit this thread in a couple days and see the hammer price.

It is apples to oranges now. The cards are now presumed real by a wider swath of the community.

I want to thank all of the forum members for their opinions and advice. I've sold a lot of various items on ebay and enjoy the thrill when I get a item that ends at 10 times the price that I expected. Whenever I sell an item or help another person sell one, I research the items as well as possible. I did the same for the baseball cards. I haven't collected a baseball card since I managed to collect a full set in 1956 when I was 10 years old (wish I still had it). I researched the web and found a confusing amount of pros and cons of having cards graded. I left it up to the owner of the cards who was told by a former grader and collector in the next county not to get them graded, that all were valid and it wouldn't be worth the cash outlay when we list them on ebay. Anyway that where we ended up with the listings. We have about 10 cards to relist and about 50 more that haven't been listed yet but will be on about the 2nd week of May. Again thanks for your opinions and advice and keep watching please. Thanks again Jim and Russ.

Thanks for the update Jim and Russ. Whomever gave you the first advice got part of it right. It does indeed look like they will be authentic, with respect to your posts, but most likely you would have gotten a bit more for them if they were authenticated. At least that is my view on it. Regardless, it's been a good showing so far and I am sure ya'll will do well. Good luck with everything and thanks again for coming on our board to explain. It makes a huge difference especially with the yellow/red flags of the listings. Zero feedback and the cards looking the way they do would have left many, if not most, skeptical.

Wow. Those fake cards sure sold for a lot of money...

I don't know about "a lot" considering most everyone knew they are real....at least everyone who reads the board. :) A good showing overall...their completed listings.....

http://www.ebay.com/csc/russelschrei..._sop=13&_rdc=1

.

It sold for about what a PSA 3 sells for. I actually thought it might bring $1700, but I was off by about 10%

I still stand behind what I said about selling the cards raw. A lot of buyers like myself could care less if it were graded or not and will still bid the same amount regardless.

If the card would have graded a 4, yeah he left about $400 or so on the table. However, if the card would have graded a 2, he made out well by not having it graded. If the card would have graded a 3, he still looses because of the grading fees and time involved.

Point proven.

Here is a PSA 3 that recently sold for $1476.01. It had 33 bids by 22 unique bidders.

http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.d...p2047675.l2565


Here is the card that is the subject. It sold for $1534.74. It had 8 bids by only 2 unique bidders, yet it sold for more than the PSA 3.
http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.d...p2047675.l2565

More bidders doesn't mean squat.

The raw one that is the subject had a better story and publicity. :)

Anyone can find sales to fit their analysis needs. If I want to and take long enough I am sure I could find some counter-examples. There is a reason almost all higher end cards are graded when sold. Generally speaking they bring more money. But that is only my, and most other AH's and collectors, opinions. There are always anomalies too. And lastly, I am well aware that sometimes a card can sell for more raw as someone might think it's a higher technical grade than it is and pay for that grade . So in those cases selling raw is better. This might be one of those exceptional cases. I can agree with that. But all of the other cards too......I doubt it. ;)

it may have had better publicity, but that didn't help the number of bidders. It still had only 2 bidders. And, in fact, I would be willing to bet those two bidders are not even board members. I say that because at the time of their initial bids (according to the time stamps), the consensus was that the card was a fake.

And I didn't have to look too hard to find sales to fit my analysis. I simply took the last completed sale of a PSA 3. We could probably go back to the last 3, 4, 5 sales of this card in a PSA 3 and the data would be consistent.

My opinion that grading doesn't impact the final sale price is only for lower to lower/mid grade cards. I agree that mid grade cards and up should be graded to maximize the sale.