Looking for a 2nd example of the T206 Cobb (bat off shoulder) / Black LENOX card
 

The Cobb (bat off shoulder) is a favorite subject for many Cobb collectors. It is found with over 20 different T-brand backs in the white-bordered series of Tobacco cards.

The T206 Cobb (bat off shoulder) is reportedly "confirmed" with a Black LENOX back. But, many long-time T206 collectors say they have not seen this front/back combo.
However, several Brown LENOX cards of this Cobb have been confirmed. Therefore, prompting this question.... Was a Brown LENOX Cobb originally mistaken for a Black
LENOX Cobb ? ?

So, with all the "T206 power" on this forum, can we resolve this mystery ?

OK guys, especially you Cobb collectors, please chime in with your inputs regarding this front/back combo. Also, feel free to show off your Cobb (bat off shoulder) cards
with any one of their various T-brand backs




http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...CobbSGC40x.jpg


TED Z
.

Not mine for long, at REA.

Joe

Here's mine Ted.

I can't offer any help on the Cobb Lenox Black/Brown question. Art Martineau might shed some light. Or David Hall?

Scot

That is an absolutely stunning card, Scot.

That really has some *pop* .

What a great looking card!! It just pops....

One of my favorites, for sure.

<a href="http://s210.photobucket.com/user/Tyjaycox/media/cards/T206TyCobbBatOffPSA2.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb189/Tyjaycox/cards/T206TyCobbBatOffPSA2.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo T206TyCobbBatOffPSA2.jpg"/></a>

To be, or not to be....T206 Cobb (bat off shoulder) card with a Black LENOX back ?
 

Joe, Scot, and Tyler

Some good looking Cobb's.

Thanks for displaying them.


And, the black LENOX regarding this Cobb still continues to remain a mystery.


TED Z
.

Thanks guys -- registration and upper left corner aren't ideal but those are petty complaints.

That PSA5 is W :eek: W !

Scot- great Cobb...is it your scanner that makes it look photoshopped? the colors are very smooth, like it's been airbrushed.

Hi Michael,

I used "Auto-Denoise" function on my scanning software.

I don't know if that counts as "photoshopped" in your book.

Scanner: Canon CanoScan 8800F

Scot

(Not hoping to start a conversation on scanning here . . . .)

Hi Scot, was just merely asking if that was the way the card appeared in person, or rather a result of a scanner setting...seems like the latter. Again, stunning card, nonetheless.

ETA- no need to discuss beyond this post.

Michael,

I have found that my scanner under default settings doesn't capture how my cards look "in-person" at all.

So I think your "in-person" v. "scanner settings" is a false dichotomy.

But whatever.

Scot

IMO, it does not exist....

Let's get serious....does the T206 Cobb (bat off shoulder) / Black LENOX exist ?
 

OK, do we conclude that this Cobb was never printed with the Black LENOX back....or, that there just isn't any interest here regarding this front/back combo ?

Honestly guys, I really don't understand why there have not been more responses from the T206 expertise on this forum regarding this subject ? ?

Let's give this thread one more try. A friendly bump with the Cobb (bat off shoulder) from my all-SOVEREIGN set.


http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...0TyCobb50x.jpg.http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...yCobb50xbx.jpg



TED Z
.

good info Scot...

Sorry Ted, but I don't have one, and I've never seen one. :(

That's like being married to Raquel Welch and being mad that she can't cook! :)

Beautiful card!

$200 REWARD for verifiable proof of a T206 Cobb (bat off shoulder) / Black LENOX card
 

It has been a week since I posted this thread, and I'm surprised that there are so few responses. So, I'm beginning to suspect that the T206 Cobb (bat off shoulder) card
does NOT exist with a Black LENOX back. However, I am a persistent dude, therefore......

REWARD......I am offering $200 to any one on this forum who can produce a T206 Cobb (bat off shoulder) / Black LENOX card....or, verifiable proof thereof.


Meanwhile, please continue to show us your Cobb (bat off shoulder) cards with their various T-brand backs.

I'll continue here with this Cobb from my SWEET CAPORAL 460, Factory #42 (overprint) sub-set.



http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/t...tcap42ovpt.jpg.http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/t...tcap42ovpt.jpg




TED Z
.

$200 REWARD for verifiable proof of a T206 Cobb (bat off shoulder) / Black LENOX card
 

WOW !

Even with a serious REWARD of $200, there are no responses to this request. Yes, I (and at least 14 other long-time T206
collectors) do NOT believe this front / back combo was printed.

But, we are not certain of this. For we can never be sure what surprises The Monster still has in store for us.


Anyhow, feel free to post your Cobb (bat off shoulder) cards here, especially those with tougher backs.


Here is an OLD MILL from my T206 collection......

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...OLDMILLx50.jpg . http://i1255.photobucket.com/albums/...psc962127b.jpg



TED Z
.

Ted,

If I photographed myself standing in front of a mirror holding my cobb to expose both sides simultaneously, would that constitute verifiable proof or simply pornography.

IMAGE - deleted

Hey Frank
 

I've been trying to solve this Cobb/LENOX mystery for some time now.

Your humor here made me smile.....THANKS.


Frank....if in your numerous travels you are in Pennsylvania, you are very welcome to check-in to the "Hotel Zanidakis".

And,
:) you can check-out anytime you like. But, you can never leave :)



TED Z
.

Deleted
 

Error in posting.

$200 REWARD for verifiable proof of a T206 Cobb (bat off shoulder) / Black LENOX card
 

Here is my PIEDMONT Cobb from my all-PIEDMONT set. It is the 5th and the last of my Cobb's with this pose. So, this
may be my last bump of this thread. Perhaps, this time some one in Net54-land will chime in and solve this mystery.

I really do not understand why there have not been many more meaningful inputs to the question regarding this Cobb
with (or without) a Black LENOX back ?

I find this to be very strange....given the "T206 power" that resides in this forum ! ?



http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...NT460x50xx.jpg . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...460%20x50b.jpg



T-Rex TED
.

Re: Cobb, bat off, Black Lenox
 

Posted again in this thread is the T206 Ty Cobb, bat off, with Black Lenox back.
Art

<img src="http://i911.photobucket.com/albums/ac319/rebelsart/Cobbbat1.jpg" border="0" alt="" />

I don't see the prior post. But isn't that what Ted is looking for?

Note to Ted: I don't post on these threads since I don't have anything to add. But that doesn't mean I'm not following or interested. I'm sure there are others like me.

Re: Cobb, bat off, Black Lenox
 

Eric:
I posted this image in another thread. Here is the link:

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=216722

Art

Hey Art, are you still working on a Tigers master set? :)

Bam! Time to pay up, Ted!

There are many of us in the same boat, I'm sure.

Yeah, looks like one has been posted.

Re: Cobb, bat off, Black Lenox
 

Hi Sean,
Yes still working on the T206 Detroit players with different backs.

Art

Thanks for posting the Cobb, Art.


For the record t206resource already had the black Lenox Cobb listed as
confirmed.

http://t206resource.com/Checklist.ht...ToDetails=True

Looks re-backed to me.

I had the same thought...

Michael W. and Leon

The last time this Cobb/LENOX was seen was in 2003. This date is well within the timeframe (1999 - 2006) of when that "rash" of "re-backed" (I refer to them as RE-FRONTED,
since this best describes how those T206 fakes were actually implemented) appeared in the hobby.

And, as you well know, we were able to detect those RE-FRONTED fakes since the majority of them had impossible front/back combos. However, those fakes were so sharp that
even the Grading Company's were fooled.

I don't think that this Cobb/LENOX card fits into the RE-FRONTED category. Every one of those RE-FRONTED fakes were professionally produced to grade at least a VgEx to ExMt
condition.

Anyhow, feel free to explain why you think this card appears to be "re-backed".


TED Z
.

Ted, I'm confused. I thought that the point of this thread was that you didn't know if the Cobb/Lenox existed. So what do you mean by "the last time (it) was seen was in 2003"?

He is implying the one seen in 2003 was fake.

Sean

I shall try to un-confuse you. This is the 36th year that I have been collecting T206's; and, until Art posted this Cobb (bat off shoulder) with a black LENOX back....I had not seen one.

Art told me that this Cobb first appeared at least 15 years ago. And, that these f/b scans of this Cobb date back to 2003. That is the last time this Cobb has been seen.


TED Z
.

Apparently I was confused as well

...so did someone just win $200?

Oh, so you didn't mean that it was seen by you. Okay, I get it.

You never know when a certain card might show up. Just before I joined this forum I confirmed the last unconfirmed Cycle 460 (Schaefer). I had owned
this card for 7 years and didn't even know it was unconfirmed. Around a year later another one showed up and now there are 5 that I know of (might be 4
one could be a crossover).

Cobb Lenox
 

To me, the card looks consistently worn. Beckett is as good as PSA and SGC and I think they would see a 2-part card. Plus, I think Art would know if it were 2 cards glued together. I think he won $200.. Nice card...Rob

I agree with you Rob. I don't know how anyone could tell that a card is
re-backed from a low resolution scan.

$200 REWARD for verifiable proof of a T206 Cobb (bat off shoulder) / Black LENOX card
 

Hey guys,

Regarding the "Re-Fronted" T206 cards....the more than a dozen of them that were in circulation several years ago....were all graded (either by PSA or SGC).

So, you cannot depend on the Grading Company's to screen out these T206 fakes. The guy(s) who created these fakes were very professional paper restorers
and their workmanship was very high quality.

Fortunately, for us T206 dudes....this guy(s) were not knowledgeable of the legitimate T206 front/back combinations; therefore, we detected they were fakes.


Anyhow, I'm confident that the Cobb / LENOX card that Art posted here is legitimate; and, the REWARD has been mailed to Art.


TED Z
.

I think BVG is as good as PSA or SGC too. However, they all make mistakes. I have seen a Red Cobb Drum in a BVG holder that was rebacked but graded. I don't think anyone said they know for sure that this card is rebacked. But to me, and at least one other fairly experienced person, it has the look.

Does this include the Mathewson/ Red Hindu card that turned out to be a re-backed fake?

Sean
 

The Matty (portrait) / red HINDU was one of the first fakes (circa....2000) that alerted us to the numerous re-fronted T206's. If I recall correctly, SGC graded this fake.

Then dozens of these fakes followed and most were good enough that PSA and SGC graded them.

One of the last re-fronted fakes to be detected was back in 2012. A Green Cobb with a CYCLE 350. PSA graded this Cobb. Subsequently, it sold at an auction for $3000 !

Link to thread......
http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...cycle+350+back


TED Z
.

so whomever made/commissioned these rebacked fakes seem to have been quite savvy to the "feasibility" of different front/back t206 combos, huh?

So despite the existence of all these documented fakes, from the same time period this otherwise non-existent combo is real?

All the fakes were impossible front/back combos, the Cobb (bat off) has
always been possible with a black Lenox back.

Hi Peter
 

You ask a very good question....and before I try to answer it regarding this particular Cobb / LENOX card, what is quite "scarry"
in my mind is what is the probabilty that these "re-fronting dudes" also created T206's with legitimate front/back combos ?

The probabilty of this occurence ranges from 0 - 50 %. I would bet that there are re-fronted T206's with legitimate front/back
combos in circulation in the hobby that will never be discovered as fakes.

Now, to answer your question. Art M. has provided a history of this Cobb / black LENOX card; and, that is that it was first seen
years ago prior to the period (circa..2000) that the rash of the re-fronted T206's first came into circulation.
Furthermore, none of the re-fronted T206's that have been detected were in the condition this Cobb is in. To my knowledge, all
the re-fronted T206's that were exposed were in VgEx to ExMt condition (and, some Authentic as graded by PSA or SGC).


TED Z
.

Just to play devil's advocate: It is certainly possible that this card could be both re-backed, and not done by the same person who did the others that you are telling us about. It wouldn't even need to have been done in order to deceive. That card is in rough enough shape that it isn't hard to imagine someone creating a new card from a Lenox back with front damage and a Cobb with back damage.

I understood your post to say Art had dated it to 15 years ago, which is the same time period as the fakes?

"Art told me that this Cobb first appeared at least 15 years ago."

My understanding is that this Cobb card preceded the timeline of the re-fronted fakes.

T-Rex TED

The Cobb showed up on ebay 12 1/2 yrs ago, and if I recall correctly, was in similar condition and look to the one being discussed. There is almost a 100% new regime at Beckett now..

http://net54baseball.com/showthread....kett+fake+cobb


.

How many other examples are there of front-back combos where only one is known to exist and the card is believed to be legitimate?

Jaime has the one and only Cobb red/ Broadleaf 460 known.

Peter
 

This T206 Herzog that I have had for a number of years (David Hall owns it now) may be the only one known.

And then, I could be proven wrong on this. Let's see if some one on this forum can produce another Herzog / UZIT ?


http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...erzogSGC45.jpg . http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/t...ogUZITx50b.jpg


Note......
To those of you who are already checking-out the PSA and SGC POP reports, you will find this card in the SGC listing (SGC 45).

And, you will also find this same card in the PSA listing (PSA 3)....since David Hall crossed it over.

So, they these two listings are of one in the same card.


TED Z
.

There are likely a large number of cards that fall in the one only category
with scarce backs like Broadleaf 460, Drum, Brown Lenox and uzit.

Was the rebacked Plank that Doug Allen had commissioned a 1/1 or just a relative rarity?

Hey Peter....let's try this again.

I'm repeating this prior post, since I responded with an meaningful example to your inquiry. So, why aren't you interested in following up on this conversation ? ?

Inquiry
Response

Ted, I understood your response and also Pat's response so as far as I was concerned there wasn't really anything to follow up on, so I was asking another question as I remember one of the things Doug had admitted to doing was having a Plank rebacked.

Ted,

I have great respect for you but I think you need to get your money back. I was the one who helped identify the bogus T206 Red Hindu Mathewson (and removed it from the market) and this card (the Cobb in question) bears many of the same signs of being re-backed. In fact, I would say the job that was done was quite sloppy. Look closely and you'll see evidence on both the right and left edges on front that the reverse side is larger and overlaps the obverse in several areas. Also, the artificial wear that was added is ridiculous. No legitimate T206s, even those with advanced wear, have edges like that.

Peter,
This is the Plank that was supposedly re-backed.

quick question: the $200.

paid, not paid or now in litigation?

edit: (not that it even should get paid out necessarily, but you know...charitable donation or something)

I can definitely see what you mean on the lower right corner.

I'll tell you where I'm coming from on this subject....I have never seen a black LENOX back on this Cobb ; and, I have been collecting T206's since Bill Heitman published
his famous book "The Monster". Furthermore, more than a dozen long-time serious T206 collectors tell me the same.

Yet, certain websites claim this Cobb front/back combo has been "confirmed".

If this Cobb that Art M. has posted is as you (and some others) suspect a "fake", then my original contention questioning the existence of this Cobb is justified.

In any event, I have a better understanding now as to why this Cobb with a black LENOX back is claimed to exist.


Incidentally,
I really appreciated Art showing us this Cobb. He and I have been trading T206's since back in 2006, and this time he just got a generous advantage on our latest trade.


Take care, and my regards to Brian


TED Z
.

One wonders if PSA and/or SGC deemed it altered before it ended up in a Beckett holder.

Ted,

I think we're on the same page here. If there's a legitimate black Lenox Cobb out there, I'd like to see it. My feeling is that this card is the one that has been catalogued by a number of websites.

I still don't see how anyone can say the Cobb is re-backed based on the scans.
The card is in rough shape and shows wear that is consistent with many
cards in that condition. Here's a card in better condition that shows similar
wear on the corner and edges.

No, it clearly does not. The edges on your card simply do not compare.

Part of my opinion was based upon the thought that a tpg could easily see a re-backed or re-fronted card in hand with a loop, but y'all have stated that they have already had many slip past them.
This card still looks like a beater with border chipping from the small scan to me, but Leon and Michael may very well be correct. Seems like the would-be forgers would have wanted to make one in better condition if they wanted to make one, but who knows in this hobby..Take care, Rob.

The three main reasons I think it is re-backed are:

1. The left edge - (it looks like the left edge was scraped across concrete or something, which is what you would do if you wanted to hide the fact that the front and back were different pieces of cardboard, and didn't align perfectly).

2. The back has a number of spots of staining, all near the edges. It looks to me like some spots have staining where the back had more wear and as a result the paper is thinner. The adhesive used to bind front to back may be showing through the thinner spots on the back, leaving a stain.

3. The wear just doesn't look natural. The edges on the back look like they were artifically worn with sandpaper or something to make them too rough to detect if they are two separate pieces of paper.

I'm by no means an expert on the topic, but that's what it looks like to me.

For the record
 

I as per usual agree with Mr. Wentz. I am not 100% sure but pretty close to it. would love to see in hand. Also for the record I do not think BVG/BGS is even remotely in the same league as SGC or even PSA at catching advanced alterations and even non advanced trimming. Just my opinion, I still respect Leon, but I think his friendship with the guys at Beckett color his opinion on their skill level.

Hi Rob

It's been approx. a dozen years since these re-fronted T206's surfaced into circulation.....so, many have forgotten about them. One of the
most memorable fakes was the T206 Matty (portrait) with a Red HINDU back. It was a "beauty" and it was graded by SGC.

Here's another re-fronted "beauty"....the Green Cobb with an impossible CYCLE 350 back. This fake was sold in Auction for $3000.


http://i.imgur.com/hUpXc.jpg


I could go on (and on) with a number of these fakes....but, I will leave you with how this RE-FRONTING process is usually done......

A friend of mine, who is a professional paper restorer, described to me the process of creating such "fakes" that are virtually undetectable
strictly from their physical appearance. Simply, the front of the card is very carefully removed from its back. And, the desired front image
from another card is appliqued onto that blank front of that card. Then basic paper restoring measures are used to restore the edges.



TED Z
.

It seems that in this hobby, anyplace there is demand, there is a card doctor (or purveyor of fake autographs/memorabilia) to fill it. Sad.

Peter

In the last Century (1970's - 1999), the "card doctors" were Lo-Tech using paper cutters....but then most of these little cardboard gems were valued only in 2 or 3-digit$.

In the 21st Century, with 4, 5, or 6-digit$ values, the card doctors have become Hi-Tech....as is evident in the examples of the re-fronted T206's.

Now, what we T206 dudes have to fear is that these con-artists have become knowledgeable on the correct front/back permutations !


TED Z
.

Ted yeah, except low tech was good enough to get the Wagner into an 8 holder in 1991.