Is Dahlen a lock ????? VS others at position why not ??
 

Any thoughts on the "pre-integration" committee Hall of Fame voting that happens tomorrow ?? I looked at the stats for Dahlen and he measures up very well. 21 seasons mostly at Shortstop, 100+ runs in his first 6 seasons, 120+ hits 15 times AND was the active HR leader at retirement in the Dead ball era. Gotta be there this time ??

http://baseballhall.org/hall-of-fame...016-candidates

He should be a lock. Nothing is guaranteed. If I had a vote: Adams, Breadon, Dahlen and Stovey would be those I selected.

While I'm not a champion of his case, I would vote for Walters before I'd vote for Ferrell.

Dahlen --- YES !!!!!!!!!!!

I have also felt Chris von der Ahe should be in. He did revolutionary things with ownership that weren't even thought of at the time.

Looking up Dahlen the other day, I also checked out George Davis. A lot of people think he shouldn't be in, but with his stats, a definite. Then, right below him in encyclopedia is Harry Davis, who, imo, also should be in.

Anybody else feel that Tip O'Neil and Jimmy Ryan merit consideration? John

I'd have Tony Mullane and Lefty O'Doul (for contributions on and off the field) on there as well.

So, forgetting merit, do we think Dahlen WILL get voted in? And why? Because he's still on the ballot while others have been knocked off--and no other strong player candidates?

My vote is
Dahlen
Breadon
Stovey

With Herrmann, Adams, and Von Der Ahe worthy of election but not at this time.

The HOF should really look towards creating a "pioneers of the game" section that recognizes the early players from baseball history like Ross Barnes and a host of other 19th century players.

No
 

I do not believe Dahlen is a lock but I do think Lefty O'Doul should be in the Hall of Fame!

Dahlen was the (pre Ty Cobb) in terms of surliness and bad attitude. He was not well liked but look where that got Cobb! Of course it helps to have a lifetime .366 BA! :)

Dahlen's surliness certianly was not limited to the field as The Chicago Inter Ocean of January 4, 1901 reported Dahlen’s wife suing for divorce, alleging he choked her in February 1897 and struck her that December. The suit also claimed Dahlen had threatened his wife’s life and used “vile, abusive, and opprobrious language” toward her.

I guess in retrospect he will fit in nicely with some other Hall of Famers!

Peace, Mike

Lefty O'Doul owned and ran a bar restaurant in San Francisco. It still exists and serves great pub grub. Right off Union Square, if I recall. Joe DiMaggio, a buddy of Lefty's when they both played with the Seals, tried unsuccessfully for many years to get him into the Hall but to no avail. Probably too late now. John

Again, my query is, forgetting others, is Dahlen a lock--and if so, why????

One player who I don't think who should get in: Frank McCormick. He was a good player, but certainly not hof worthy.

I can't wait to see who's going to get in,

~Owen:)

EDIT: Also.. to Greg who had the question above,

Dahlen is considered by some a lock, mostly because of the new SABR stats (mostly WAR), it shows how some players were very valuable to their team, even if other stats show otherwise. Dahlen is one of these players.

Too cool!
 

Now I really have a reason to head West. That sounds very cool! Thanks for the tip.

Mike

I think Dahlen does get in. Looking at the candidates, Dahlen has the strongest case among players. They elected three before, why not three or four this time?

My question is how much will his and others card prices go up if they get in? Also am I the only one who thought Babe Herman was in the hall of fame? Off topic but I just found out he wasn't after thinking he was for a long time. Also realized Marion wasn't a hall a famer only a few weeks ago!

His prices will jump a lot tomorrow, then fall until they level out at normal HOF prices for the lesser known players. He should be a lock tomorrow, but you never know with the Hall of Fame voting. If they knew about WAR in the 1930's-40's, Dahlen would have been voted in 70 years ago. He was one of the most valuable players period, not just among players not in the HOF.

My grandparents gave me this Lefty O Douls ashtray from his bar.

I'm really hoping Stovey gets in. He was the first modern player a hundred years before the modern player. I'd think his OJ prices would be pretty strong if he does get in. Hank O'Day's card is pretty expensive now.

N172 Von Der Ahe prices will shoot higher because he is tougher to find. There is one real nice one on Ebay and another ratty one on the interwebs from a big dealer. It's $500(plus a 15% discount) but don't expect that price tomorrow if he does get elected, the price will go up. I learned that the hard way when O'Day got elected and I immediately tried to buy the one he had for sale.

I don't know much about the others but Dahlen deserves to be in there. I would add that quite a few other from that era he played in should be considered as well.

I paid $70.00 for a PSA 1 in his Boston uniform. Any chance I could turn a profit on that?

Maybe tomorrow you can get a little more than that right after he's elected, but there are a lot of them on Ebay right now, so people have options. Unless your PSA 1 has great eye appeal, it will probably be worth about $55-60 within weeks of him being selected. Also, he's the type of player who people already assumed would make it, so there could be less people than normal who need one right away.

Should I contact Dean's? I can't decide if I want to keep it because I'd love to build a monster set or if I should flip because I haven't worked since August.

If you have an Ebay account, just list it tomorrow after they announce the new HOF'ers(or before so it's up already). Assuming he makes it, his cards will probably never be worth more than right after they announce it.

People rush to buy them, sort of like when a player passes away, or when Topps talked about that Derek Jeter error. People were paying ridiculous amounts for that card during the first couple days. You can get them for less than $5 now.

I don't have one. Which is why I'm curious what I could get. I want to build a T206 set, whilst also being tempted at the prospect.

Adam the real question should be does the Committee actually research anything and take real candidates into consideration???

Why isn't Rip Van Haltren ever in contention?????????

http://www.baseball-reference.com/pl...anhage01.shtml

Maybe he'll be one of the ten for 2019.

When I look at Dahlen, I also look at Dick Allen - qualified for Cooperstown but linked to character issues.

I 100% agree Barnes should in the HOF.

What hour tomorrow do they announce who is in?

I'm thinking in the afternoon, around 2:00 or 3:00.

11 am on MLB Network (according to the HOF website).

Greg

correct

BTW an SGC 40 Dahlen t206 (Boston) went for about $70 tonight on the Bay

I won't be home but I'll be checking my phone like crazy, eagerly looking to read Dahlen's name. I'm looking so forward to the results I don't know how much I'll sleep tonight.

I hope Chris von Der Ahe, Tip & Lefty get the nod

http://www.qualitycards.com/pictures/tiponeill.jpg

The only card in the N284 Buchner set that depicts an owner
http://www.qualitycards.com/pictures/1245315006.jpg

Lefty, Joe & Dom Dimaggio & Ty Cobb
http://www.qualitycards.com/pictures/odoulcheck.jpg

Unfortunately Tip and Lefty can't get in -- they're not on the ballot.

Greg

Jimmy Ryan, Jack Glasscock, Bill Dahlen

Ditto for Ross Barnes. He was the best of his era. This cabinet is not mine, but I would sure like to find one.

The Mysterious Case of Harry Pulliam--
 

From what I read, I think Dahlen should be in, though I wouldn't call it a lock.

My OT question is, Why isn't Harry Pulliam [NL president, 1902-09] in?
He seems to have all the credentials [he was also the league secretary, treasurer, and record-keeper, I believe].

If I accurately recall what I've read on the internet,
He was beloved by much of baseball, but hated by John McGraw
[Pulliam was the ultimate judge, upholding Merkle's boner as a force play, forcing a playoff game--Despite tremendous pressure from the powerful NY Giants].
It seems as if he may have been hounded to suicide, possibly because he might have been gay.
He was memorialized at the World Series for many years.
Yet no one mentions him. Is he even a candidate?
I'd love to know more about his story, and if the rest of you think that he belongs, too.

My apologies for diverting this thread, but today's h-o-f vote seems to have become the general topic, and I'm following that.

These are some beautiful cards. I'll be very disappointed if Bad Bill isn't elected.

No one was elected.
12 votes were needed, Doc Adams had the most with 10.

Greg

Wow glad I held out (barely) on buying a Dahlen last night...

Thanks for nothing HoF.

Shame on the committee for not electing anyone.

Doc Adams had 10 votes as mentioned above. Dahlen and Harry Stovey had 8 votes each (50% of the 16-person committee).

Each of the remaining candidates had three votes or fewer.


Greg

I understand Adams had 10.

This is a sham. First this crap last year with Dick Allen and now this. I hope the voters are happy with themselves.

The Hall of Fame voting process is pathetic. They should be ashamed of themselves

I'd like to know what qualifies a player to vote on something like a pre-integration ballot. What kind of insight could Bobby Cox or Phil Niekro possibly have re: Stovey and Dahlen? It should only be historians voting on these ballots.

Niekro himself is lucky to have gotten in the Hall.

I guess character does count for something! :)
 

Now if we could only get Lefty O'Doul in! :)
Peace, Mike

I'm almost as annoyed right now as when they snubbed Ron Santo until after he died, or when Buck O'Neil didn't get in with everyone else. Rarely do you follow a HOF vote and say "good job", they're almost as bad at their job as weathermen, yet they somehow keep doing it

I wish for more reforms to the VC. Keep it to writers and historians.

I think their problem is they want voters there that the public knows, yet most of them have zero business being there. You would have no trouble finding a group of 16 voters that could do a better job

That's for sure, but the public and many others, need to be educated.

One could play devils advocate here as well. If there were baseball historians voting they'd probably want to vote everyone in :D

I know there are a lot of players I'd personally like to vote in. Scott mentioned Danny Murphy being one of his and I'd vote for him. Van Halteren, Konetchy, etc.

The question again I ask is do these voters actually know who they are voting for??

The historians really know their stuff. What I would have given to be one of those 16 voters. Then I would have been verbally repulsed by the other members who closed the doors to worthy candidates.

It appears that Dahlen's timing was unlucky . . .

He was closer three years ago when Ruppert, ODay, and White took a substantial amount of the votes.

You would think it would be hard to go backwards on a ballot with no one elected but he came before a different voting electorate this year (albeit with some of the same committee members).

Perhaps the same voters who voted for him last time are back but there are those who didn't.

They'll get it right one of these years.

Was Turkey Mike Donlin even on the ballot?????

Yes, on players who haven't played in 75-100 years, and have been dead for 50, only a select group should evaluate them.

That being said, they have had 80 years to get in the HOF, and did not make it so I would say enough, no more HOF'ers from the long ago past.

I mean, in the year 2116, will there be a huge push for Omar Vizquel? or Steve Garvey? or Dale Murphy? Or Tori Hunter? It's the same sort of thing, all have some HOF credentials, got some votes, but didn't get in when evaluated by their peers.

I don't that's true though. For example, in 1936 Stovey had already been retired for 40 years. He received 7 percent of the vote, but how many of the voters had seen him play or were that well versed in his career?

Now we have the luxury of hindsight and thorough research. I would argue that it is the opposite. Now is the time to re-evaluate the careers of early players who may have been forgotten by their peers.

It doesn't matter . No one got elected... What a disgrace to baseball!!!

This is a travesty. The 19th century players are underrepresented in the HOF. Until the selecting and voting committees are comprised of baseball historians that know the game and its history, similar outcomes will continue. Also, the pre-integration era is too long of a period of time. At a minimum, there should be separate pre and post 1900 eras.

For many years I have advocated a 5 category Veterans Committee breakdown instead of the present 3 category. Unfortunately it continues to fall on deaf ears.

The problem with this logic is that the HoF didn't exist until 1936 and the first 4-5 years they mainly were electing only the absolute best players and few 19th century guys. I have no problem with modern players having a time limit as suggested but someone like Harry Stovey had been retired and out of baseball for 40-50 years (adams nearly 80 years) before he realistically had a shot at the HOF so no way to compare Stovey, Dahlen, Doc Adams to someone like Alan Trammell.

I have often wondered if the HoF had been started in 1895 or so who would have been elected to the HOF? I think there would be some really surprising inductions.

I remember reading an ancient article asking several 19th Century & early 20th Century players who they thought were the best players of all time and while most of the names were pretty familiar, the name that was on a surprising number of lists was Ned Williamson and he gets absolutely no consideration.

It is an interesting question that is fun to debate with knowledgable baseball historians!

I'd love an explanation from those who actually voted.

Jack Glasscock and Bill Dahlen are long overdue candidates for the HOF.


http://i529.photobucket.com/albums/d...dgeglassck.jpg


http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/t...nDahlen50x.jpghttp://i603.photobucket.com/albums/t...Dahlen50xb.jpg




http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/t...leftyodoul.jpg
Lefty O'Doul is another long overdue candidate for the HOF. How does a guy whose 11-year career BA = .349 not be in the BB HOF ?
I do not understand this. Can anyone on this forum explain why this is so ? ?

Furthermore, check out Lefty's 1929 numbers with the Phillies......

154 Games
638 AB
254 Hits
.398 BA
32 = HR
152 Runs
122 RBI
.465 OBP
.622 SLG

The following year (1930) with the Phillies, Lefty hit for a .383 BA with 202 Hits, and 37 HR's.

I guess that's why he's smiling in this photo (circa 1930) wearing a Phillies uniform.



TED Z
.

I love the Dahlen Brooklyn.

Lefty O'Doul is not a HOF player.

He played parts of 13 seasons, but only 6 seasons did he get more than 100 games played. 4 seasons he was used as a pitcher, but only got 34 games with 1 start in 77.2 innings pitched. His ERA in that time was 4.87 and gave up 104 hits.

He only has 970 games to his career and 811 of them came from a 6 year span. He essentially had 3 good seasons as a LF 1929, 1930, and 1932. In the 811 games he played between 1928 - 1933 his stats would look HOF caliber, but he just didn't have a full career to warrant HOF induction.

He is a HOFer as much as anyone else. He was part of the game for 30 plus years and is a major reason we have Japanese players in Major League Baseball. O'Doul should be elected as a contributor of the game. His influence on it has been multi-national and he is one of the few people to achieve something like that.

Lefty O'Doul had some great years, but 1929-30 are huge years for offense in baseball and four of his other seasons, he had a combined 72 at-bats. He just didn't play enough. His most comparable player all-time is Rusty Greer according to baseball similarity scores, which looks at their overall contribution. He has zero chance of making the Hall of Fame with those credentials. He needed another 4-5 years in the majors instead of toiling in the PCL

I guess I should have clarified he shouldn't be inducted as a player. That is what I was refuting since it was his playing stats that were brought up two posts prior to mine.

Tony Mullane:

http://www.baseball-reference.com/pl...ullato01.shtml

George Van Haltren:

http://www.baseball-reference.com/pl...anhage01.shtml


To be honest I would have voted Dahlen and that's it because with the exception of Wes Ferrell (who isn't a HOF player) I don't know who anyone else was to be educated enough to vote for. Maybe this is how the voters vote................

Hey guys...."can you say HOF-er Lasorda" ? ?
 

Three insignificant years of MLB, and 20 years as a Manager.


While, O'Doul had 11 years of better than average playing as a Major Leaguer, and 20 very successful years as a Manager in the PCL.

During that time, Lefty was responsible for many great Major League ballplayers (especially from the SF Seals).

I could say a lot more on this subject....but, it will only stir up turbulence :)


TED Z
.

I have no qualms with Lefty O'Doul, but what's the problem with Lasorda?

I think he's making an inclusion argument. If one then the other. I have to agree too. It makes no sense to put Lasorda in for his service time as a manager and not O'Doul, even if O'Doul's service was at the minor league level.

Here is a quote from Blyleven on the research he did:

"You do as much research as you can," Blyleven said. "I know all the research I did on Wikipedia.

http://www.twincities.com/sports/ci_...tes-just-didnt

This is the biggest issue, IMHO

I don't see why we can't have both.

Here's whom I would propose for the next pre-integration ballot in 2018

Bill Dahlen
Harry Stovey
Doc Adams
Gavvy Cravath
Ross Barnes
Sherry Magee
Lefty O'Doul
Jack Glasscock
Tony Mullane
Bob Caruthers

This goes beyond wiki. Not all 10 were 1qualified. Not a chance Marty Marion is anywhere near as qualified as Dahlen.

Even if you only used Wiki, how do you not vote for a guy like Stovey or Dahlen? Their pages quite literally tell you they are amongst the greatest players not in the HOF.