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2016 Hall of Fame Ballot, Who would you vote for?
Let's pretend we all have a 2016 BBWAA Hall Of Fame Ballot.. You can pick up to 10 ELIGIBLE players. Below is a link to this years ballot. Who are you voting for?
http://www.baseball-reference.com/awards/hof_2016.shtml Be interested to see everyone's picks! Scott |
A list of who I would vote for, not who I think will make it in.
Barry Bonds Roger Clemens Ken Griffey Jeff Bagwell Mike Piazza Curt Schilling Larry Walker Mike Mussina Sammy Sosa Mark McGwire A good tracker as public votes come in: https://onedrive.live.com/view.aspx?...C7uZHAmcVGWgwE |
Griffey Jr and Piazza.
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Ken Griffey Jr.
Mike Mussina Tim Raines Larry Walker Fred McGriff |
In no particular order:
McGwire Griffey Clemons Bonds Piazza Bagwell Walker McGriff Kent Raines Interesting that none of us have selected a reliever yet. |
Piazza
Bagwell Schilling Clemens Bonds Smith McGwire Sosa Griffey Hoffman |
David Eckstein
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My ballot would be:
Barry Bonds Roger Clemens Ken Griffey Tim Raines Mike Piazza Lee Smith Mark McGwire Sammy Sosa My opinion of Jeff Kent constantly changes.. His offensive numbers as a second baseman are amazing. But truth of the matter is he was really a first baseman/third basemen playing second. His defense was pretty horrible at second and he really should have been playing first or third. When you put his offensive numbers up against other 1b/3b of the era I don't think they are Hall Of Fame numbers. I also really think that Larry Walker was a great all around player but I am not sure if he is a Hall Of Famer. On one hand he spent all those years in a hitters park in Colorado, but by the same token he spent so many of his early years in the horrible hitters park that was Olympic Stadium. I was able to watch him finish up his career in St. Louis and although age and injuries had begun to slow him down he was still a pretty amazing player. |
I've always been a big fan of Larry Walker's. He was an incredible hitter. If not for Tony Gwynn batting 372 in 1997, he would have won 3 batting titles in a row and 4 in 5 years. As it stands, 3 titles in 4 seasons is still incredible and it's a peak that I think makes him just as good as anyone else in the Hall.
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I don't believe in holding it against a player based on the park they played in. Walker can't help MLB put a team in Colorado and he ended up playing there. We could make the same case for Ruth and that short porch in right for him to lob homers over, or just about any Red Sox player to hit the ball off the Monster. It's an endless of " what if " said player played elsewhere. The same can be said for pitchers and the parks they have pitched in.
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Btw, he could help that he ended up in Colorado as it was his decision to sign w/the Rockies a s free agent. |
Howard, there is a lot of appeal to Colorado besides the park. Perhaps I am in the minority in not holding anything against players for the park they play in. However, let's be fair that parks have helped many players careers besides Colorado. Any Yankee lefty was aided by Yankee Stadium.
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Griffey
Clemens Piazza Bonds |
Chuck Klein is the closest comparison to a career at Coors Field and Klein is in. He hit 354 at home and 286 on the road. OPS was 1.028 at home vs .813 on the road.
They both played 17 seasons. Walker out hits him in every category except average, where Klein has a 3 point advantage (320 vs 317). |
Piazza
Raines Bonds Schilling McGriff Griffey Clemens Albert Belle (write in) |
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Juiced.
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Those players won't get in. You asked about Bagwell, he's not in because he juiced.
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http://blogs.twincities.com/twins/20...steroids-2001/ |
Based off public opinion. Run a Google search.
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So, does Ortiz get in? Fairly wide belief he juiced and I believe actually named, or am I mistaken? Bagwell's been convicted in the court of public opinion and that's it.
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Ortiz did fail a survey test in 2003. It is well known and substantiated by the player's union. He claims he doesn't know why.
The Astros as an organization are well connected with steroids and PEDs. Caminiti was a good friend of Bagwell. He played on the same teams as Pettite and Clemens, four Astros suspended in 2010, another 3 in 2013, it goes on and on. It may be circumstantial and guilt by association, but it's not something that came out of thin air. |
griffey
edgar martinez bonds clemens piazza mussina raines i tend to go with the best players in the era...so bonds and clemens get in from the steroids guys....sosa and mcgwire don't. bonds not in is a bigger injustice than joe jax or pete rose. no ortiz or bagwell for juice. |
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Bagwell gets my vote next year? LOL Did he ever actually get busted for PEDS or just accused? Honestly for players from this era my feeling is that more of them were using PEDS than were not. So if you were among the best of PED users you were the best of your era and you can go in the Hall. I don't see it as a Hall Of Moral & Good guys. If we didn't allow players in who cheated or who took some form of performance enhancers the Hall would have a lot less members. And also.. I didn't really intend this thread to be about who will get in, more about who YOU would vote for if you had a ballot. |
So you think/assume Bagwell to PED's so he doesn't get it? Let's go purge the hall of every guy from the 60's and 70's that were hyped up on speed & greenies too!
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Not a Sosa guy.. but he was one of the biggest offensive threats of that era. 600+ home runs, 1600+ RBI's, 1400+ runs... Pretty impressive. As far as McGwire I think a lot of people see him as a one dimensional Dave Kingman type who only hit homers. But if you look at his stats later in his career you see that he becomes a much better hitter. Look at the how OBP and walk totals improve and he starts to hit for much better average other than the seasons with major injuries. I also think he was a pretty decent defensive player for a guy his size. Lets not forget he was a 12 time all-star in his 16 year career. I am also of the opinion that the McGwire/Sosa homerun chase brought a lot of fans back to the game and I don't think that is something that should be over looked. Before that Summer a lot of fans had become disenchanted with the game after all the labour strife & cancelling of the World Series. |
McGwire hitting in the Home Run Derby at Fenway was classic. Just remember to turn off the sound so you don't have to listen to Behrman.
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Mike Piazza
Barry Bonds Roger Clemens Jeff Bagwell Mark McGwire Sammy Sosa Ken Griffey Jr. If I had a vote on the Veteran's Committee: Ted Simmons and Gil Hodges. |
+1 for Simmons and Hodges
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Piazza
bagwell schilling edgar martinez mike mussina mcgriff walker garciaparra griffey edmonds |
Roger Clemens
Fred McGriff Barry Bonds Ken Griffey Jr |
Griffey, Jr.
Raines |
Id vote for
Barry Bonds
Ken Griffey Jr Roger Clemens Mike Piazza Jeff Bagwell Tim Raines Allan Trammell Fred McGriff Mark McGwire Sammy Sosa Do not cae if they juiced and I honestly believe Bagwell juiced go to the video for before and after shots. |
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There are countless stories about Bagwell addressing PED suspicions. I'm not sure what it was you searched to come up with nothing. Also voters are the ones to make assumptions about players, because voting someone into the HOF is an opinion. So in the court of public opinion, assumptions and speculation come into play when rendering an opinion. You're not making a legal argument to get into the HOF, so I'm not sure what you're talking about.
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Another way to view Bagwell is to say his sick numbers really weren't that notable during the era in which he played. Granted most of those inflated numbers of the era were from juicers, but nonetheless...
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Do I need more key words to find the "evidence"? Just because people speculate and asked him still is nothing. I don't find any more evidence than if I type in "PED Griffey". I didn't say there wasn't speculation, but I said there was no evidence and has never been named (outside of speculation/assumptions). Quote:
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All this said I am not declaring that Bagwell was clean, but who are we to say he wasn't just because someone else made the assumption and it is the popular belief even without a shred of evidence? He did use muscle builders, but none of them were banned at the time of use. That is what we KNOW and if someone wants to use that against him, than fine at least they are using facts. |
Bagwell was also top 10 in MVP voting six times while winning it once. I think was impresses me most are two things I didn't remember; he stole over 200 bases in his career (including over 30 per season twice) and averaged 114 runs scored for his career.
To me, he was the Frank Thomas of the NL with better speed. Thomas hung around a little too long and padded his numbers, Bagwell hung it up a 37 with something still in the tank. |
If Ortiz gets in the Hall, that may open the flood gates for other PED users to get into the Hall. Ortiz fails a test, and comments " I don't know what happened "? Yeah, bewildering isn't it. It's an unsolved mystery. Bagwell has been convicted in the court of public opinion due to the era he played, with nothing to back up PED usage, other than some people " thinking ".
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Bagwell admitted taking Andro in 1998. It wasn't banned until 2004, but that admission might stick in the minds of voters. You asked a question I am only giving you reasonable answers as to why perception is what it is. I'm not against you or anything.
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You're right PACKS. Perception is the reality, and that appears to be enough for voters to keep Bagwell out of the Hall.
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What about some love for Jeff Kent?....his numbers are there
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What about some love for Jeff Kent?....his numbers are there
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Griffey Jr.
Hoffman McGwire McGriff Martinez Schilling Raines Piazza |
Griffey, Jr.
McGriff |
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Schilling
Piazza Junior Trevor Hoffman |
Ken Griffey, Jr.
Mike Piazza Curt Schilling Mike Mussina Alan Trammell Jeff Bagwell Trevor Hoffman Jeff Kent Billy Wagner I don't think there is enough 'evidence' on Piazza or Bagwell to warrant their exclusion: Piazza had 'backne' and I never heard anything specific about Bagwell...other than being a gym rat at working out. . . |
They released the names on the pre-integration ballot. I'm hoping Harry Stovey gets in.
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Pre-Integration
Doc Adams, Sam Breadon, Bill Dahlen, Wes Ferrell, Garry Herrmann, Marty Marion, Frank McCormick, Harry Stovey, Chris von der Ahe and Bucky Walters are the candidates for Pre-Integration Era Committee consideration for Hall of Fame election for the Class of 2016.
Call me a homer but I think Chris von der Ahe and Sam Breadon both belong in as contributors. Would love to hear from anyone who got to see Marty Marion play. Around hear we love Mr. Shortstop but being I never got to see him play I don't know if his defense was so good that he belongs in the hall. I also understand that he was pretty instrumental in bringing about the Players Pension Plan so I am sure a lot of players that came after him owe him a little gratitude. |
I still say there are two Cubans who should be in already....no, not Mark...
Minnie Minoso & Luis Tiant. . . |
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Griffey
Hoffman Bagwell Raines Schilling Piazza Mussina Kent Trammell McGriff Honorable mentions to Billy Wagner and Larry Walker. |
Ricky Henderson was my favorite player as a kid. With that being said, his power numbers peaked in his early '90 A's years. He was jacked and he stole a lot of bases which made his body take a beating. If Bagwell is out because he played with Camanetti, Clemens and Pettite, I am not sure how Henderson is not looked on with curiosity playing with Conseco and McGwire while having his best power numbers.
Griffey was a spindly guy who hit 50+ homers several times in the height of the steroid era and then his body broke down. I know that he had a nice smile and everyone liked his '89 UD card, but, I am always amazed at how he is somehow kept out of the conversation because people liked him. Ripken played 2600+ consecutive games and hit with power in the heart of the steroid era. However, he did not have Bacne and people thought he was nice, therefore, he is innocent in court of public opinion... I guess I am just saying that I am fatigued with how we and the writers have randomly decided who was guilty and who wasn't. I am not saying that the above are guilty - I am just saying that someone could probably build a case - but they won't because we "like" them. Ortiz has proverbial blood on his hands - guilty explicitly - and then implicitly with his revival during the '13 WS run when he turned back the hands of father time. Yet, he is a fun loving and a Red Sock, so somehow, he will defy the odds and get into the hall in an era where writers decide by their gut instict and eye test who is guilty and who is innocent. In my opinion - for what little it is worth - more were guilty than innocent during the era. The best of the era were Bonds and Clemens. Get them in and then let the rest get in relative to the best hitter and pitcher of the era... - both were A'holes and hard to like - but they could play ball. OK, let the beatings begin.... |
No beatings from me! I pretty much agree with you 100%!
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My ballot:
Piazza Bagwell Raines Trammell Griffey Jr Edmonds Hoffman Yes, I would eventually vote for Clemens and Bonds to be in the Hall. They would have been Hall of Famers if they'd never juiced. But because they did, I wouldn't put their names on my first ballot. Or my second. Or third. Quote:
I remember seeing Simba play at Milwaukee County Stadium as a kid. When he got the sweet spot of the bat on the ball, you could hear it all the way in Waukesha. The man was very strong. Simmons was an extra base hit machine, and there's a compelling case to be made for his induction. Here's a list of the Major League players who started at least 1,000 games at catcher, sorted by career extra base hits: Ivan Rodriguez 934 Carlton Fisk 844 Johnny Bench 794 Mike Piazza 779 Ted Simmons 778 Yogi Berra 728 Gary Carter 726 Rodriguez is likely a first ballot Hall of Famer, and Piazza should get in soon. You mean to tell me that every guy on this list is a Hall of Famer but Simmons? And Hodges? I'm sorry, Hodges is one player where I feel the WAR metrics simply do not do him justice. He should have been in long ago. |
I feel that it's wrong to give love to Gil Hodges without acknowledging someone like Keith Hernandez, who I think has a stronger case.
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Here's another head scratcher. Hernandez won 12 Gold Gloves. Yet, his career dWAR is 0.6.
I watched him play first base. He was spectacular. He changed opposing manager strategy. So how is it that his glove work was worth only a half a win over a replacement first baseman? |
I am still torn on Clemens and Bonds, as those guys were truly special players even before they juiced. I am not convinced Clemens has the latter day resurgence without the medication. He looked to this untrained eye like he was cooked around '93 and not sure he did enough before then to warrant entry. But what a stretch of dominance from 1986-1992. Barry Bonds was just a tremendous hitter who achieved almost God-like skills when he went on the PEDs. Tough call. Those two aside, my ballot -
Griffey Raines Piazza Schilling Mussina Bagwell Walker Trammell |
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Hernandez had a better OPS+ and was a better defender than Ebbets product Hodges. |
Even as a math nerd, I'm not sold on defensive metrics. For modern players, I'd rather look at Gold Glove voting.
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Here's the problem I have with trying to gauge defensive performance. Unlike offense, where you can just look in the box score from 1927, and see what Babe Ruth our Lou Gehrig might have done at the plate, there's no way to accurately gauge how well they did in the field. Modern defensive metrics toss out terms like ultimate zone rating, range factor, range factor per 9 innings, total zone fielding runs, total zone fielding runs above average, etc. A lot of these are incorporated into each other, and unless you have a PhD in Sabermetrics, it's something you just look at, and move on. I'd like to delve more deeply into how these numbers are arrived at, but now's not the time. How can you accurately gauge what Lou Gehrig's range factor was 88 years ago unless you have a DeLorean, and can go back in time to watch him play all of his games? While the formulas might be sound, the data that is going into the calculations has to be, at best, highly suspect. Using the Keith Hernandez example again, I don't get how his glove essentially won a half game over the course of his career, when he's widely considered the preeminent defensive first baseman of the modern era. Again, I watched him play, though admittedly, the majority of my exposure to his play was during his time with the Mets, as I was too young when he was in St. Louis. He still won five Gold Gloves in New York, so he was doing something right. But unless I'm completely stupid, and reading the information incorrectly, I see that in 1987 and 1988, seasons in which Hernandez won his final two Gold Gloves, he was worth a combined -0.8 dWAR. His best season ever, if going strictly by dWAR, was 1983, when he had a 0.8 dWAR. He won a Gold Glove in 1978 with a -0.6 dWAR, and most of his totals in subsequent Gold Glove winning seasons were something like 0.1, or 0.2 dWAR. What? Ozzie Smith had some dWAR seasons with figures in the +3 and +4 range. I know shortstop is a more difficult position to play, but Hernandez played the position in ways that were never done before. You can't tell me that Keith, who would charge home plate when he thought a bunt was on, didn't save a lot of runs by essentially taking that play out of the opposing manager's book. The guy is famous for diving all over the field, making spectacular catches. And the sum of all his defensive plays, during which he won 11 Gold Gloves, is about a half win for his teams. Look at Roberto Clemente, arguably the greatest defensive right fielder in the history of the game. Are we really believe that in 1966, his dWAR was 1.3, in 1967 it was a -0.1, and in 1968, it was a 2.5? Clemente's defense was worth 12 wins over 18 seasons? The guy won 12 Gold Gloves, tied with Willie Mays for the most ever by an outfielder, and he was worth only 12 wins defensively in nearly two decades. I'm baffled. Kirby Pucket has a 3.3 dWAR his rookie year, and doesn't win a Gold Glove. Two years later, he has a -0.6 dWAR, and wins his first of 6 Gold Gloves. Something is terribly wrong with this metric. |
Piazza & Griffey. That's it.
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I'm looking forward to Monday's announcement in hopes that Dahlen cracks the 75%.
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I have my fingers crossed for Stovey.
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Stovey held the home run record before Roger Connor did.
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if Clemens, bonds and McGwire get into the hof then joe Jackson and pete rose should be voted in.
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Are we talking about the Gil Hodges who was an 8 time All-Star and drove in
100 or more runs 7 years in a row? That Gil Hodges? The Gil Hodges who got over 63 percent of the vote from the baseball writers when he was on their ballot as opposed to Keith Hernandez who never got as much as 11%? Hmmm. |
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All Star games aren't as relevant as one would think. |
You could. Both Mortis and Hodges should be in.
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Not a chance Jack Morris is HOF worthy. I am a very vocal opponent of Morris and I'm ready to debate anyone about it.
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Hof
Tony Oliva
Vada Pinson ( check his stats) |
Oliva just missed, so did Allen, and I was appalled that Allen was that short.
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