PWCC green cobb psa 5.5 going through the roof
 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1909-11-T206...4AAOSw9mFWMm5z

bidding over $14,000 which has to be way over SMR... when I had two PSA 4s nicely centered Green cobbs..all I would hear about is SMR this and SMR that....

the waterfront properties really taking off...!

I'd be more impressed if any of the last ten bids came from bidders who didn't bid in PWCC auctions 50 to 100 percent of the time. His auctions are just filled with shill bids and any price he gets on a card is suspect.

eh he is selling a 450k mantle..he not exactly fly by night...I probably bid 50% of the time on his auctions because private sellers tend to shill and all the of sudden the auction is 'canceled' heck even on a net54 reverse auction a old mill cobb just disappeared......not sure why someone would shill over $8,000..it already breaking new ground..14k blows it off the roof yet you brining up shilling? funny ..go bid on your own card 300% more than the what was perceived present market value and win it back and pay 8-10% to win your own card back...in this case would be over $1000... no way shilling is involved in the winning bids for the card.....if you think otherwise then basically every AH and every other ebay suspect is suspect....BIN's are suspect .. .everything is suspect...just pay what you want for the card and don't pay a penny more and everything will work out...later

There's shill bidding all over his auctions. When the top five bidders only bid in his auctions it's fairly obvious. Just because you pay what you want for a card doesn't lessen the fraud or make it right. Similarly, writing with ellipses instead of using correct punctuation doesn't make your points more cogent.

And even if the auction was legit, isn't the great likelihood that the reason for the high price is because a card doctor thinks the card will make its way into a PSA 8 holder?

Indeed!

writing without ellipses doesn't make what you say any better as well...

so if its not shilling its card doctoring? so no sales are legit basically

I think most people on the board would disagree. Just received this PM: "I can't believe you're engaging this idiot."

so most people think every sale of a card on PWCC is shilled or for a card doctor...and you posting a pm calling me a name..because name calling really helps to prove an intelligent point..nice

Actually I didn't call you a name. Just quoting what someone else said. Actually three people now.

Maybe I should put this one up for sale :eek:

Joe

cant do it with PWCC because you will shill your own card or only card doctors will buy it apparently

WOw Joe, now thats a nice Cobby. Huge top & bottom borders...having a Kardashian moment here.

right quoting someone calling a name isn't the same thing...someone just called you an idiot..but hey that wasn't me...... as long as im not the one saying it i am free to post every insult someone calls you? I actually refrain from name calling even if its not me saying it...to me name calling whether from you or someone you are just quoting doesn't tend to make your argument stronger......to me its still name calling if i am quoting someone else which appears to be validating them and i don't think it helps to prove any points...

you also didn't address this post

so most people think every sale of a card on PWCC is shilled or for a card doctor...

so i guess you agree with that statement....

Joe that's my favorite green Cobby in the hobby. Every time you post it is a good day!!

+1 My heart skips a beat when I see a card like that. (still lovin' "Cy with helmet" but he is griping for a change)

I'm not saying you're right or wrong, but why would anyone shill a card that is already that high over any reported sale? VCP record is about 8k for a PSA 5.5 and less than 14k for a 6. I think even if someone were shilling this to start I think they would have let it run it's course a few thousand dollars ago.

The card is perfectly centered and the color looks great. Maybe that's why it is getting bid up so high.

What's a card doctor??? :D

right the OP doesn't think that it is possible that the card can get bid up for its own merit...its a waterfront property type of card..the POP really thins out at PSA 5 and higher.....that's my argument as to why the card is being bid up....but Im an idiot to think its not being shilled...

we can give facts about what the last sales were and that its blowing them out of the water and would make no sense for it to be shilled....and talk intelligently....so far I have been provided very useful counterarguments if that entails name calling.....ill all for discussing intelligently the pros and cons.....

I agree with your train of thought on some cards hitting extraordinary levels because of what they are, similar to waterfront property. I have always been fine with paying record amounts for gorgeous cards. I think the best looking specimens do the best over time. If the Green Cobb with the huge borders, shown in this thread, went to auction it too might fetch a record price. Shown all of the time but relevant, I am sure this was a record paid for this E90-1 Young when I got it recently, but it still didn't hit my max bid. Some cards are almost mesmerizing. Those are the ones that get record prices. The PSA 8 Mantle on the bay is that nice too.....

It is amazing how long a broken record will play for.

?

"Kevin" and I are going to have to have a chat before he gets back on the board. The phone number given didn't seem to go through..

One of my favorite cards in the hobby.

St Louis' team physician?

Steve

Thats a nice 5.5 maybe should be a six but in either case thats a heck of a lot of money and the biddings not over yet. I have a 4 and am beginning to think I could get over 4k for it.

The current second place bidder only has bid activity with PWCC on 19 different items over the past 6 months. Just saying.

id be interested in a centered 4..

Also just noticed the Plank offered by PWCC has several of the top bidders with 80%+ bid history only with this seller. Hmmm. To me that seems strange. Just saying.

Why would someone shill a card waaaaay above a record price?

Hypothetical -- A card is worth/valued at $6,000. It gets sent to an auction where it is shilled to the stratosphere. The "auction" ends with a "record" sales price that goes into the VCP.

Six months to a year later, the same card goes to a large but different auction house. Some of the bidders with that auction house don't know the card has a "history" and only look at the VCP reports. They bid on and win the card for $10,000 which they think they got for a bargain since it last sold for $14,000.

So now, because of the shill bids to the stratosphere, a $6,000 card becomes a $10,000 dollar card and the new buyer has no clue they have been cheated.

David

It is not the amount of times that a bidder bids with a specific seller that bothers me, it is the number of bid retractions that a bidder has on the same lot:

30-Day Summary
Total bids: 277
Items bid on: 60
Bid activity (%) with this seller: 81% Help
Bid retractions: 4
Bid retractions (6 months): 12

4 bid retractions on the same lot? 12 in past six months? Why is this guy still able to bid on this lot? SMH

It doesn't mean 4 on the same lot it means 4 total in the last 30 days.

People tend to do their homework on $10,000 dollar cards...one lone sale isn't all the rage on ebay..they also look at other auction houses.....also you cant shill against your yours..in your situation....the card that sold for $14,000 probably had many underbidders between $10,000-$14,000 unless all of them are shilled...seems like a loot of work..plus since its a PWCC auction you cant just cancel the sale...you will have to eat 6-14% on your win.....

How many times has that 1952 PSA 8 mantle been shilled..the same type of card grade wise.. sold at multiple auction houses for over $400k...but for some reason on ebay its all fake?

I could see a number of bidders who only use eBay to bid on pwcc auctions but am in agreement on the bid retractions. I've used eBay since late 90's and don't think I've ever had a bid retraction. Serious question, why else would someone have that many retractions unless for shady dealings?

Winning bidder:

30-Day Summary
Total bids: 201
Items bid on: 148
Bid activity (%) with this seller: 87% Help
Bid retractions: 0
Bid retractions (6 months): 18

18 bid retractions wtf? Is it possible this could be retracted after the auction and the card gets re-offerred to the 1st real bidder? Honestly I don't understand why someone no matter how satisfied they are with a particular seller would be willing to pay 150% of recent market value. It makes no sense.

The winning bidder is cleaning up on all the nicely centered T206s. Same dude has bought 4 other cards I was looking at and also has a $3100 bid on the Cy Young Polar Bear. Must be nice to have significant funds and very little price sensitivity.

If it's a real buyer. Hey real possible buyer I have some high grade nicely centered cards that I can sell you at only 125% of recent market prices.

Unless the market is changing for these types of cards. Someone paid about a 100% premium on recent market value for that PSA 7 52 Mantle on Heritage. Would we all be making shill accusations if that had been a PWCC auction?

I don't know, I would need to see the id's and bidding history of the people winning the Heritage auctions but that transparency doesn't exist.

Cobb Buyer just lost out on the Plank by $100. Probably first loss of the evening, but man, what a shopping spree! Is there a "PayPal Black" for super high rollers?

For those keeping score this is a confirmed cockroach that crawled in under the door. Same thing as always, I call them out, say lets have a chat and they go all F bomb in emails. I have my ideas on who it is but it doesn't matter anymore....Cockroaches usually get stomped on.

I don't understand some ebayers. Here is the buyer of the Cobbs feedback..18 bid retractions in 6 months. Most of us have almost 0 in forever. I think I have 0-1 total in around 16 yrs

I should add that I think PWCC is a good seller and is honest. ....(and they are an advertiser). I think I have bought from them before and would again.


30-Day Summary
Total bids: 202
Items bid on: 148
Bid activity (%) with this seller: 87% Help
Bid retractions: 0
Bid retractions (6 months): 18



.

Honestly, I don't know how to retract a bid. Is there a button? Seriously, I have no idea - never felt compelled to go back on an offer.

Agreed....I would think other sellers besides PWCC has nice stuff as well. I know, speaking for myself, I have nice cards every once in awhile!

The top bidders only having bids with PWCC is strange.

Bid retractions are strange.

14 years on my current account (over 3k feedback and have left over 4k) and my prior acct was from the Wild West days starting in 97'. Never retracted a bid and never stiffed a seller.

I was ripped off several times in the money order days, but never for too much. Never bought a big ticket item till paypal.

I have 23 different sellers in 30 days on my history snippet. That seems a little more normal.

I bought a lot from PWCC today, and have in the past. I almost grabbed the Delong Gehrig as well...till my son asked me to cut a check for drivers training yesterday, lol.

I'll buy from them again, but yes I admit these things certainly bother me.

Another sales pitch for sniping software. It does not solve the problem, but it helps a 1000% more than letting someone peck away at a max bid for a week and then withdrawing their bid the moment they find it.

Would love to hear from Brent at PWCC who does this for a living what he thinks about these bid retractions. Why so many for some of these bidders? What are the circumstances around using them? Just trying to get my head around justifying the legitimacy of both bidders with super high percentage of bids with one seller AND lots of retractions.

I am bothered by bid retractions..i think ebay bans you if you do too many but who knows...

I admit I have retracted maybe 3 bids this year but that was when someone bid retracted a bid over my bid and then I became the 'new' high bidder...so I said goodbye my bid......I rarely bid anything close to what I want to pay until people are not allowed to bid retract because of how close the auction is....I wait till last hour...I think they ban all bid retractions a few hours before but I not sure when exactly..

We've heard from him before. He's all over it...I think.

Bob- You're thinking is correct. If you look at what this card has done in the last five years on SMR, it would amaze you. Obviously, 51 Bowman, 52 Topps, and 53 Topps Mantle cards as well, but that's another story. All T206 Cobbs, you can't go wrong in my opinion....

Total SHILL marketplace.......check out the bidder percentages and see for yourself.

card ended at almost $16k....Does anybody need a PSA 8 with a qualifier?:)

Laughable !

Wildly inflated prices on easily found cards, massive bid retractions of high bidders -- who only bid on PWCC auctions, troll accounts set up for the sole purpose of ripping critics. And yet the dimwits will support the guy even after he was caught juicing scans, lied about it on Net 54 and got caught, helped bidders avoid paying sales tax and is "all over" the shill bidders in his auctions -- except he's not. Same idiotic defense of Mastro and Allen from 8-9 years ago and look how that ended. If it looks like a fraud, walks like a fraud and smells like a fraud in this hobby you can be damn sure it's a fraud. Wake up -- or don't.

many of the sales are on par with heritage though...in fact heritage and many of the AHs have the major records highs that are pacing the market over PWCC...so it has to be occurring everywhere...

If you doctored cards, where would you send them for auction. Ask yourself.

Oh I think they spread the wealth around.

Peter, well put.....buyer beware !

Amen to that.

who knows but there are sure to be the same cad with the same same Cert number ..not every card is doctored....if everything is about doctoring then the problem isn't with pwcc its with the third party graders...the bidding also is more legit because the card doctor is truly paying that higher price.....it not the responsibility of the auction house to know why a bidder wants a card..

Not every card is doctored = TRUE

not sure why card doctoring is even a factor of discussion...if you have a card that's borderline than maybe more people want it including card doctoring.....if PSA catches the doctoring then the card gets an Authentic and the doctor is out the money...however the auction buy from the card doctor is a legit bid......I thought we were talking about fake bids and fake accounts ...card doctoring is not an issue about real bids....

Card doctors will obviously NOT want to auction their own cards !

I mean seriously people!!!! Jbonie was right...the market is being manipulated by the mafia!

@JustinD: I almost bought that Delong Gehrig. But decided a few days ago, to let it go. I had planned to use Gavelsnipe for the 1st time and probably would of won it at the price i had typed in or atleast jacked it up more, because i didnt have to worry about Buyer premiums. Wonder any board members ended up with it?? It was a nice 2 and centered.

I have nothing against Brent or PWCC, but if you changed his name to Rick he'd be sitting in front of Joseph McCarthy by this point of the thread. I've bought from him before. Great cards, great scans, great shipping, and pleased, but I'm just lost at how he regularly gets 20%-30% more than major auction houses on big ticket items. I think he has built somewhat of a cult for his auctions (especially in the PSA circles), but you would have to deaf, blind, and mute to not believe there is bid manipulation on some consignments. I think "certified high-end" is a bit cartoonish as well, yet he's carved a position and career in the hobby. Kudos to him.

This was a really well-articulated point. I agree with everything you mentioned, including my own personal satisfaction with their service and admiration of the business they've built.

I also have a theory that, when compared to AHs, I think ebay auctions tend to attract more "stupid money." Not saying that the bidders are unintelligent people, but I think the the low bid increments and the firm ending clock probably drive more emotional bidding of people who simply want to "win" more than procure a card. Plus, the universe of potential buyers - without the vetting done by an AH - is probably less sophisticated and contains those who are not as attuned about market pricing (hell, I was there once before I discovered AHs). I think the AHs probably attract a more savvy, experienced collector (and a lot of dealers) who are less likely to drive up prices for the sake of the rush. I know that happens, but my hypothesis is that it has a tendency to happen more on ebay auctions because of the structure and bidder population.

cockroaches
 

If I ever see one in the house I catch it and throw it outside!!! don't like killing any animals but need to go now and eat the leftover steak from last night at the restaurant.

If that is the case, then how easy is it for one to just buy normal cards on Ebay, consign them to Brent, and collect the 20-30% "juice" markup?? Maybe it's easier said than done. I know on my consignments, I don't see a huge increase. Some consignments even lost me a pretty penny. Then again, I don't bid up my own consignments, so maybe therein lies the rub.

I've posted a few times on bid retractions in the past and also posted again on the T206 Plank thread to discuss it further. For those who are not reading every thread I'll comment here again:

Bottom line, bid retractions are a simple but serious problem with the eBay system and we are working as hard as is humanly possible with eBay to have them update their software and bring about better control. Ebay has rules, and they simply don't enforce them.

For us, we report each and every bid retraction we receive to eBay Trust & Safety. Those in violation are warned and then suspended by eBay if the action occurs again. This is nowhere near good enough.

One point I want to convey is while some bidders may have 5, 10, 20+ bid retractions over the last year, none or at least very very few of those are with PWCC Auctions. We monitor the IDs of members who inappropriately retract bids if we see that act more than once the bid is blocked. if the bid retraction appears to be manipulative (i.e. to expose a high bid, etc) we block that user immediately on the first offense.

The biggest problem is that most users don't know they are breaking the rules. Sure, they probably regret retracting a bid, but without any punishment the act of bid retractions becomes something of a habit. I frequently get the 'I didn't know I was breaking any rules' response when we confront a bidder on their first offense.

Again, we are working with eBay on this topic and hope to have some positive progress later this year. Once we have something concrete we'll announce it on the boards.

Regards,

Brent Huigens
PWCC Auctions

I want to be a part of the Net54 board, but posts like this make it difficult for me to feel comfortable posting and being active member.

All of these accusations are items that we’ve addressed multiple times in multiple threads. If by chance there’s something new and specific that posses a concern, we are happy to address it, but ask that folks please respect the purpose the thread’s origination and if needed, start a new thread.

In general if there’s a concern (or especially if it’s an accusation) we respectfully request that specific auctions and/or bidders be referenced such that we can properly address the concerns. Blanket allegations are impossible to address.

Regards,

Brent Huigens
PWCC Auctions

PWCC comments on T206 Cobb green back
 

We certainly received some eyebrow raising finishing prices last night, but honestly, this T206 Cobb was not one of them :)

My pre-auction estimate for this card was $12-$15k. I highly doubt anyone will ever see another example that looks this good sell for anything less. I personally believe a strong PSA 7 would easily eclipse $50k at auction, so it seems perfectly reasonable that an EX+/EXMT example with NRMT qualities is worth 1/3 the PSA 7 price.

The entire hobby is maturing, and blue-chip cards with high-end eye appeal are consistently fetching record prices... as they should. Just my two cents.

P.S. for those questioning the bidding, I would happy to provide specific bidder details to Leon Lucky for his review and comment. All 3 of the top bidders are highly reputable and consistent buyers of ours.

Brent Huigens
PWCC Auctions

Maybe you should just donate it to me :D

PWCC honest? Yes they are maybe as honest as ..........

Brent, it wasn't a blanket allegation to note that you lied about your juiced scans -- and got caught on Net 54. You also offered to help California residents evade sales tax on purchases. You also used to allow consignors to bid on their own lots. http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...ons+legitimate

Finally, many of your high bidders have massive amounts of bid retractions which, to most on this board, seems fishy.

None of these issues are "impossible to address" -- unless what you mean is that it is impossible to offer an innocent explanation.

PS Doug Allen used to do the same thing on Net 54: claim it was all a witch hunt and blame me for starting it. Hope it works out better for you. And if you feel I'm libeling you, feel free to sue me.

Brent you call them blue chip...I call the waterfront/waterside properties..

well there are many factors..i have consigned with Brent and I have gotten good results overall and will continue to use PWCC but several cards went for under VCP...people like to talk about the 20%-30%in extra inflated prices as a blanket statement..but its usually because you are focusing on the waterfront properties/blue chip cards....and you overlook results that don't help your argument...you aren't checking out the 1952 Topps PSA 6 common...they certainly aren't blowing up VCP.....if you stop focusing on the top 5% of the cards in the hobby you may see just a well run auction and stop assuming inflated prices....go consign your cards and let us know.....you will find when you consign your cards you may singing a different tune...

I have also found that I had a direct sale fall through because of price and that the same guy who refused to pay my asking price bid that much with PWCC..which cost me fees and I ended up netting less but for whatever reason the buyer would rather pay ebay the fees..

ebay allows for credit cards....which many AHs don't allow or charge additional fees...also PWCC doesn't have sales tax to most of the high bidders...those are factors....plus there is ebay bucks as well which on a 1000 dollar card could be a 10% savings for people on certain days.....$100 off..

+++ Exactly. REA/Mile High/Memory Lane/Heritage/H&S....all have one thing in common; proprietary bidding software with no transparency. If you want to make an argument about shilling, start their first.

Settle down Francis. We get your point, you love Auctions that have no transparency. OK, got it.