Football Hall of Fame Rookie Cards Collection
 

I was thinking of starting to work on a Football Hall of Fame Rookie Card collection and came across this old auction result from Legendary:

http://legendaryauctions.com/LotDeta...entoryid=54650

Is it possible these days to put together such a collection and only spend the amount listed in the auction or was this a "steal deal" for the lucky winner?

Phil,
I'd say that you're looking at more like $5,000 to $7,000+ to do a collection like that today. The 1935 NC Nagurski alone would probably run you $1,500 in a 1.5. The rest of the key rookies, with the exception of the Unitas & Sayers, are poor to fair but even in those kind of grades they would probably cost $50 to $100 each.

You're also trying to compare a sale that occurred in 2005 to today's prices. To assume that these cards have not appreciated at all in ten years is unreasonable. It may be possible if you found another lot like that one that you could purchase it at the figure(s) I quoted above but to go out and obtain these cards one at a time would be cost prohibitive. Even at $3 a card for shipping, about 20% of your total budget would be consumed just to have the cards shipped to you.

Hope you found this helpful and it doesn't deter you from collecting football cards. Vintage football represents some of the best bargains in the sports collecting field!

Regards,
Scott

The HOF rookie list is a fabricated list of many non-period cards of the players. Who choose who's on the list? It wouldn't take long to have the people on this board come up with the "real" list, but of course no one would be able to get them all, but it's a lot more fun chasing those than 1988 Swell Arnie Herber's, 1990 Pro Set Al Davis, or 1994 Police Bud Grant, 1974 Fleer Paddy Driscoll. I guess I'll have to settle for low grade examples of 1932 Walker Cleaner Packers Arnie Herbert, 1963 Coke Cap of Al Davis, 1954 Blue Ribbon Bud Grant, or 1928 Star Player Paddy Driscoll.


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I started working on a HOF rookie collection about 6 months ago, I'm up to about 1/3 of the cards needed thus far. I'm not going all sgc,psa or anything...mine are a mix, I have sgc, psa, and a lot of Raw as well. I am trying to stay a little bit higher grade than that auction listed for most of the cards anyways. I really do wish I had kept track of what I've spent on them so far but I haven't at all really, though I have been deal hunting, not just grabbing first thing I find.

This so far has been the most enjoyable and addicting thing Ive attempted in my 20 years of card collecting. Let me know how your collection comes together.

I completely agree, Carl. To me its silly to call a 1988 Arnie Herber his rookie card. I believe the rookie card phenomenon is a manifestation of two things:

1) It seems to have always been the unwritten rule that a rookie card has to come from a "mainstream" set that was distributed nationally if at all possible. I'm not sure if this rule was pushed by Topps and other card manufacturers or came from dealers wanting to make sure they had plenty of rookie cards to sell.

2) The grading companies would never advocate that rookie cards be designated in scarce sets like Star Player Candy as then hardly anyone would work on a HOF registry set as completing it would be pretty much hopeless and hopeless equals less grading fees for them!

Either way it is clear that the driver behind rookie card designations is $$$$, not what is truly the players first card.

I'm very content to focus on trying to get "pre-rookie" cards of HOFers from the scarce sets you mention even if these cards aren't designated as rookie cards. I agree its a lot more fun chasing those but don't begrudge anyone who wants to try and complete an official rookie card set ... that's still a tall task!

jeff

Imagine how disappointed this consignor must have been after they spent well over $5K (even back then in 2004-05 and that doesn't include all of the SGC grading costs for raw and cross-over card purchases), as mentioned previously, and only netted around $3,100 after the buyer's premium was deducted from the final auction price.

OBTW, that consignor was me. The astonishing thing was that it only took me a little over 6 months to do the entire collection.

Phil,
I'm sorry that you lost some money while collecting but hopefully you were entertained and learned something from the experience. I don't want to offer any platitudes or try to rub salt in your wound but your story validates both Carl's and Jeff's points posted above.

Again, sorry things turned out negatively for you. I've taken beatings myself (I think that everyone has at one time or another).

Scott

Thanks, Scott. Actually, it was a lot of fun, that's why I am considering doing it again but the financial aspect is what's keeping me from moving forward at this time. If I did go ahead with it, I would try to do a little bit nicer set condition-wise this time around, at least on the modestly priced rookies. Also, wouldn't bother with the SGC grading, that and the shipping costs were my two biggest money wasters. Also, admission cost and gas to local card shows played a much smaller role as well.

This time around, I have a 2 year old son so am thinking this might be a good endeavor to start and he and I can work on together in the future. Finance-wise, a baseball rookie collection would be impossible for me to undertake at this time, as would a hockey rookies collection with all of the early tobacco and '30's gum cards. What makes a basketball rookies collection less appealing than football to me is the large gaps in years of sets produced. That leaves football as my most likely endeavor if I decide to do a rookies set at all......

Sorry to hear that, Phil. Somebody got a pretty good deal.

If you decide to take up the task again, definitely start a thread and keep us posted on your progress!

jeff

I really like this set:http://www.psacard.com/PSASetRegistr...on.aspx?c=3658 for a much easier challenge that still includes a bunch of great players. And only the Hutson and Hein are.... "contrived" rookies.

So who would be the tough HOFers in a real earliest item HOF set? And the set wouldn't be all cards, right? Probably about 20 matchbooks? And how many photos? Would anyone be impossible? George Trafton?

There are seven HOFers I haven't been able to identify a card/matchbook/premium for:

Guy Chamberlain
Jimmy Conzelman
Joe Guyon
Ed Healey
Tuffy Leemans
Fritz Pollard
George Trafton

I have team photos that have these players on them but no individual items. You can find vintage photos of these players, though.

jeff

Not so Tuf
 

Jeff,
Leemans is in an obscure Wheaties premium set issued c. 1941.
Bo.b Rich.ardson

Never saw that Wheaties premium before - who else is in the set?

For your list, Jeff, I've collected programs and autographs - Pollard is the toughest autograph of that group - I picked up a notarized cemetery deed and this postcard he sent to his son from Italy

http://photos.imageevent.com/ltsgall...beson%20PC.jpg

Sweet! Thanks for the info and posting this, Bob. I've never seen that one before. Down to six:

Guy Chamberlain
Jimmy Conzelman
Joe Guyon
Ed Healey
Fritz Pollard
George Trafton

Anybody else see something out there for these guys?

jeff

Thanks guys! Down to 6 - not bad.

Mike, I actually looked up Pollard recently - I was actually just digging into the 1920 season and Pollard's team won the title - of course there was no MVP, but he arguably may have been. At around the 6 minute mark in this video: http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap200...en-trailblazer you can see #1 returning a kick, but disappointingly they really don't tell you what they are showing.... I didn't think they had much video from the 20s....

Great stuff, Mike! I'm still kicking myself for not going harder after the signed Pollard cabinet that came up a while ago. You mention Pollard and Robeson. Here are a couple of photos of have:

Pollard (far right) with son's football team.

http://photos.imageevent.com/ltsgall...50522_0001.jpg

Paul Robeson.

http://photos.imageevent.com/ltsgall...ulrobeson.jpeg

jeff

Jeff, probably a stupid question, but what's the difference between a cabinet, a photo, and a premium? My guess is they are all photos, but when we say premium, it means a photo issued by a company for collectors. Cabinet I have no idea....

Nice list guys. Ive nevers seen the Leemans card either. Very nice.

Here is a virtual collection of some of the pre rookies being discussed.

http://imageevent.com/davemri/footba...rookiefootball

Rev,
The Wheaties premium set consists of 12 5x7 B&W photos and includes only one other football subject: coach Bernie Bierman. There are 5 baseball players (J. DiMaggio, Feller, Mize, Reiser, Williams), golfer Patty Berg and 4 of the Wheaties family (Jack Armstrong, Betty, Betty, Billy and Jim Fairfield).

Sporting Life Lombardi
 

Hi Dave,
Can you please tell me more about that Sporting Life Lombardi card in your slideshow? Is that a fantasy card? I've never seen or heard of anything like it! Thanks very much.
Regards,
Scott

yes, fantasy card. Think I paid maybe $10 for it because I thought it was cool..

Dave:

Great job on the football pre-rookie images. At one time, I was doing something similar with baseball so I can appreciate how much work and effort went into researching all that you have on display. I have never seen a number of these items before and I consider myself pretty seasoned in this area.

Its very cool. That's why it grabbed my eye. It has the look of the 1914-15 Cracker Jack cards. Nice job on the pre-rookie list!

Dave:

Is the 1926 Sports Champions of America Grange card legitimate? I have never heard of it before.

Thanks

Dave, I know we're bombarding you - but can you also post the list of earliest item for every HOFer - I recall you had that at one time. Thanks.

Phil, Grange is in the Spaulding set, but as others can explain better, I don't think his earliest item can be confirmed, but rather it is narrowed down to 1 of 3 possible..... Here is a link to the Spaulding set which includes HOFers Ernie Nevers and Benny Friedman: http://www.psacard.com/psasetregistr...on.aspx?c=2800

Here is a link to a discussion on the earliest Grange card: http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=209241

Thanks for the info, John. So a Spalding card of Grange does exist but it was not part of the issued set but instead, a "promo" card of sorts. That probably explains why I was unaware of it. Even though it might only miss out on being Grange's earliest card by a few months, I think the "promo" card status prevents it from being classified as a rookie card anyway.

I have never seen a W590 Grange, does anyone have a scan that they can share? On the baseball side, the W590 Gehrig is always a popular debate as to whether that card should be considered as a rookie in addition to the '25 Exhibit of Gehrig. Range of years for this set goes all the way out to 1931 so very tough to say...........

I don't really consider any of the Shotwell cards to be classified as rookie cards either as they were part of their own set and only included Grange.

For me, the 1928 Anonymous card of Grange might "fit the bill" as a Grange rookie card better than any others, unless the W590 can somehow be pinpointed to 1925-27.

Don't forget about the 1926 Shotwell sets. They would be earlier than the 1928 Star Player Candy Grange.

Here you go:

Spalding
http://photos.imageevent.com/ltsgall...7_0002.tif.jpg

W590
http://photos.imageevent.com/ltsgall...40316_0001.jpg

Shotwell
http://photos.imageevent.com/ltsgall...40127_0075.jpg

jeff

Here is a great reference that discusses various types of early photographs.

http://www.cycleback.com/photoguide/mounted.htm

Essentially a cabinet is a photo mounted on a cardboard backing that was popular in the late 1800s/early 1900s. A cabinet card has a certain size photo (4 1/2 x 6 1/2). Larger sized mounted cabinets are called imperial cabinets. Cabinets replaced the smaller cartes de visite (CDVs) that were popular in the 1850s-1870s.

Cabinets often have the name of the photographer on the front or back.

Some examples:

http://photos.imageevent.com/ltsgall...bsize/Poe.jpeg

http://photos.imageevent.com/ltsgall...50801_0010.jpg

http://photos.imageevent.com/ltsgall...tfootball1.jpg

http://photos.imageevent.com/ltsgall...ves%201889.jpg

jeff

This is a list I had posted on another message board in 2013. I'm sure there are a few additions that have been mentioned that need to be added.


Im posting this to get some discussion going at Jeff Paynes request. I have this list saved on my computer and I assume I have posted it before but I couldn't find the old post? Anyway, Jeff wants to come up with a pre rookie HOF list and this is the start I have. Can anyone add to or change anything I may have incorrect? THanks!

There are many different definitions of a "rookie card". Not everyone can agree on which issue should be considered a RC card. The list below is the one I have come up with that I would like to add to my collection. The thing about this list is that it is virtually impossible to complete. Although each card exist's, many only have a few know examples.

Here is my want/dream list..... Each selection is the first time each player has been on some type of cardboard. The players listed below are listed on the HOF website as "PRE MODERN ERA PLAYERS"

1912 Olympic Postcard Jim Thorpe
1919 Zeenut Paddy Driscoll (baseball)
1926 Spalding Promo Red Grange or 1926 Shotwell #11 Ad Back (my favorite of the set)or W590
1926 Spalding Ernie Nevers
1926 Spalding Benny Friedman
1927 W560 Ken Strong
1928 Star Candy Paddy Driscoll
1929 Albert Richards All American Bronko Nagurski or 1933 Matchbook
1931 Walkers Cleaners Curly Lambeau
1931 Walkers Cleaners Arnie Herber or 1933 Matchbook
1931 Walkers Cleaners Blood McNally or 1934 Matchbook
1931 Walkers Cleaners Mike Michalske
1931 Walkers Cleaners Cal Hubbard or 1933 Matchbook
1933 Matchbook Morris "Red" Badgro
1933 Matchbook Cliff Battles
1933 Matchbook Ray Flaherty
1933 Matchbook Mel Hein
1933 Matchbook Bill Hewitt
1933 Matchbook Clarke Hinkle
1933 Matchbook Turk Edwards
1933 Matchbook Steve Owen (coach but listed as player on HOF website)
1934 Matchbook Walt Keisling
1934 Matchbook Link Lyman
1934 Matchbook George Musso
1935 Wheaties Don Hutson
1935 Matchbook Dutch Clark or 35 Chicle
1936 Matchbook Joe Stydahar
1936 Matchbook Dan Fortmann
1936 Wheaties Wayne Millner
1938 Dixie Lids Sammy Baugh or DL Premium
1938 Matchbook Alex Wojciechowicz
1941 Wheaties Premium Tuffy Leemans
1948 Colts Matchbook YA Tittle (or a 1949 Silbers)
1948 Leaf Bill Dudley
1948 Leaf Sid Luckman
1948 Leaf George McAfee
1948 Leaf Steve VanBuren
1948 Bowman Bulldog Turner
1950 Bowman Tony Canadeo
1952 Bowman George Halas (coach but listed as player on HOF website)
1955 Topps AA Fats Henry (NON CONTEMPORARY)
1955 Topps AA Bruiser Kinard (NON CONTEMPORARY)
1955 Topps AA Ace Parker (NON CONTEMPORARY)

Then, there are 7 Players in which I have not been able to find any cards issued. Does anyone know of an issue that pictures the following players?

Jimmy Conzelman
Guy Chamberlain (Pictured on a Nebraska team card)
Joe Guyon (I have him on a 1917 Georgia Tech team card with coach John Heisman)
Ed Healey
Fritz Pollard
George Trafton
Bill Willis (the only "modern" era player without a card in the HOF RC set)(1949 Sohio?)



Then, There are the Pre Rookies that I want from "MODERN" era players. Again, going after the first time they were pictured on cardboard.

1946 Sears Browns Otto Graham
1946 Sears Browns Dante Lavelli
1946 Sears Browns Frank Gatski
1948 Exhibit Ollie Matson
1948 Kelloggs Pep Lou Groza
1948 Kelloggs Pep Bob Waterfield or 48 Leaf
1948 Topps Magic Photo Doak Walker or 48 Leaf
1948 Topps Magic Photo Charlie Bednarik or 48 Leaf
1950 Topps Felt Ernie Stautner
1950 Topps Felt Lou Creekmur
1950 Admiral Rams Norm Van Brocklin
1950 Admiral Rams Tom Fears or 50 bowman
1950 Admiral Rams Elroy Hirsch or 50 bowman
1948-52 Exhibits Joe Perry or 50 Bowman
1953 Rams Team Dick Night Train Lane
1959 Kahns Gene Hickerson
1960 Kahns Willie Davis
1961 National City Bank Len Dawson
1961 Packers Lake to Lake Ray Nitschke
1961 Packers Lake to Lake Willie Wood
1961 Packers Lake to Lake Herb Adderley
1962 Union Oil Lance Alworth
1962 Post Larry Wilson
1962 Post Jim Johnson
1962 Post Bob Lilly
1964 Kahns Paul Warfield
1965 Big Red Biographies Jackie Smith
1967 Royal Castle Bob Griese
1968 Corn Flakes Lem Barney
1968 Corn Flakes Larry Csonka






I have many of these on a web page for reference. I am missing a few.

WOW! Awesome reference, thank you for sharing. Bookmarked.

Here's a link to an auction for the 12 card 1941 Wheaties premium set

$2,839

Shows you how tough some of these items are. Auction is from 2004.

Many of these, including several of the matchbooks, are next to impossible to find.

Thanks for posting this again, Dave! Love it. We should start a thread showing as many of these that people own as possible AND add in other pre-rookie cards / items that aren't on the checklist but before the "official" rookie card. That would be fun.

jeff

Hey Dave,
Great list. I don't know if you'd include these two but how about the 1948-1952 Exhibit Joe Perry and the 1948 Topps Magic Photo Doak Walker & Bednarik (also Leaf) in the MODERN category?

Also, you had Tuffy Leemans listed on your 7 players w/o cards (cardboard images) & spec (Bob Richardson) posted an image of a 1941 Wheaties card of Tuffy earlier in this thread:

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...=210598&page=2

Regards,
Scott

Just watched a very nice Fritz Pollard item end in Mears Auction a few minutes ago. It was a 1916 Brown University football team real photo postcard. I got in on the bidding just before the 9:00CST deadline and was a click away from raising the high bid at the 14 minute and 50 second mark but just couldn't pull the trigger. Money is so tight for me right now, I just couldn't justify it. Do you guys think this was a great deal for the winner at just under $800 with the BP?

That is a great item. I had that same photo in the Brown yearbook, but the RPPC seems far more tangible and collectible.

I know I’m a few posts behind, but Jeff thanks for the info on the photography side of the hobby. And Dave, thanks for posting that HOF list. This is a great thread - really enjoying it!

What’s the 1929 Albert Richards All American Bronko Nagurski?

And does the HOF make it clear if someone got in as a coach or player? Couldn’t Steve Owen have gotten in as a player? Same (although less likely) for Halas? Both are on 20s All-Decade team.

It's about the same size as the Walker's Cleaners premiums - Albert Richard was a coat manufacturer and in 1929 they distributed a set of photos of College All Americans including Nagurski and Chris Cagle.

http://photos.imageevent.com/ltsgall...20Nagurski.jpg

Thanks Mike - I should've known that from your post in the Nagurski thread. I was counting on you for the Steve Owen question too - is he a HOF player or coach?

Looks like both:

STEVE OWEN
New York Giants
STEVE OWEN
Class of 1966
Coach-Tackle >>> 6-2, 215
(Phillips University)
1924-1925 Kansas City Cowboys, 1925 Cleveland Bulldogs, 1926-1953 New York Giants

Stephen Joseph Owen. . .Great defensive star of the 1920s. . .Captained Giants' 1927 title team which held foe to record low 20 points. . .Coached Giants 24 years from 1930 to 1953. . .Coaching record: 155-108-17, eight divisional, two NFL title teams. . .A-formation offense, umbrella defense, two-platoon system among his many coaching innovations . . . Born April 21, 1898, at Cleo Springs, Oklahoma. . .Died May 17, 1964, at age of 66.

- See more at: http://www.profootballhof.com/hof/me....rOCBiniW.dpuf

Thanks Mike - now I see it. Owen is listed as "Coach-Tackle" where Halas is listed as "Founder, Owner, Coach", so a player collection would need an Owen card, but not a Halas.

However, Halas is listed in this section as a player

Ends, Wide Receivers and Tight Ends

Pre-Modern Era: Ends (7)


Morris (Red) Badgro 1927, 1930-1936

Guy Chamberlin # 1919-1928

Ray Flaherty # 1926-1929, 1931-1935

George Halas # 1920-1928

Bill Hewitt 1932-1939, 1943

Don Hutson 1935-1945

Wayne Millner 1936-1941, 1945
- See more at: http://www.profootballhof.com/hof/po....zN03WxaX.dpuf

Thanks Dave - nice catch. A while back, on the CU board - set registry discussion - someone was pretty adamant that Halas did't belong in the HOF player registry set (52 Bowman card, I think). And I replied, well... "he's on the All-Decade Team, didn't seem like a stretch to me....". Since then though, I did read where someone (blog? - don't have the source now) went through some of the all-decade team selections and pointed out some flaws - the argument was that the early teams especially were made long after the fact by people who weren't necessarily experts on the era. It was a good argument in my opinion. Finally, in one of the interview books I've read (they start to blend together I think I read 4 - Chris Willis wrote one, Myron Cope, Richard Wittingham, and Bob Curran) an interviewee mentioned Halas was just an average player.... Of course that means nothing by itself - from time to time I've picked up on an undertone of dislike, backhanded complements, etc. in these books. People are human and are going to have opinions and biases, etc. I tend to look for corroboration and I don't recall reading much about Halas as a player.

Yeah, that would make sense. I am guessing that the HOF doesn't differentiate the category in which they get elected. I would assume they just look at the entire body of work and go from there. Just because someone played in the NFL doesn't mean that's why they were elected. Jim Finks played in the NFL but his NFL playing career isn't even listed in his BIO..

I don't know.. LOL

For Flaherty they just list coach, even though he was a great end for the Giants

RAY FLAHERTY
Boston/Washington Redskins New York Giants
RAY FLAHERTY
Class of 1976
Coach
(Gonzaga)
1936-1942 Boston/Washington Redskins, 1946-1948 New York Yankees (AAFC), 1928-1929, 1931-1935 New York Giants

Raymond Paul Flaherty. . .Compiled 80-37-5 coaching record. . .Won four Eastern division, two NFL titles with Redskins, two AAFC divisional crowns with Yankees. . . Introduced behind-the-line screen pass in 1937 NFL title game. . .Two-platoon system with one rushing, one passing unit also a Flaherty first. . .Played end with Los Angeles Wildcats (first AFL), New York Yankees, New York Giants. . . All-NFL, 1928, 1932. . .Born September 1, 1903 in Spokane, Washington. . . Died July 19, 1994, at age of 90.

- See more at: http://www.profootballhof.com/hof/me....c9p1c8W8.dpuf

Great discussion! I've never perceived George Halas as a HOF quality player. Pioneering owner and coach but not a great player.

In my opinion, he should not have been on the 1920s all-decade team either.

jeff

Football Hall of Fame Rookie Cards Collection
 

I believe that this 1908 RPPC of the Carlisle Indian Football team which includes Thorpe his Pre-rookie. I've been looking for such a piece for a long time and was able to snag it in the Hunt Super Bowl auction. I believe someday I will sell it to one of the Indian Casinos in the Northeast and they will proudly display it. I know Thorpe's image is small, but it's the real deal.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalkhttp://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/09...8d9d036ad8.jpghttp://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/09...95d6b2e902.jpg

Football Hall of Fame Rookie Cards Collection
 

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http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/09...0fb2065b43.jpg


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Something I never noticed.
I believe Pop Warner who coached the team is also depicted? That would make it his Rookie too. WoWhttp://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/09...0972b0361a.jpg


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Carl, so I guess Ill call this 1907 RPPC of the Carlisle team I have with Thopre in in his Pre, Pre-rooke :)
http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/a...CarlislePC.jpg

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/a...arlislePC1.jpg


http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/a...arlislePC3.jpg

Yes! Very Nice, but no Pop Warner. I like them both because he is at least in a football uniform. I think 1907 was his first year. I think these are "cornerstone" pieces to any collection. They just didn't make one,... I wonder how many, if anymore survived!!


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Awesome Thorpe RPPC's Carl and Joe! Those are really cool items.

Pre-pre-per-pre rookie :)

jeff

I started collecting NFL HOF rookie cards about 10 years ago, with the goal to get the "official" rookie or the oldest card I could afford from the player's playing days. Some official rookies are from 1974/75 Fleer HOF, 1955 Topps All American, etc. I currently have 275 of the 293 HOF rookie cards available, that meet my standard for rookie. I would love to acquire the 1933 Diamond Matchbooks of Badgro, Battles, Edwards, Flaherty, Hein, Herber, Hewitt, Hinkle, Hubbard, and Nagurski.
The only inductee that I don't have anything of is George Wilson (Rookie: 1960 Bills Team Issue).

Andrew:

There's a George Wilson in the Pro Football Hall of Fame?

I don't want to put words in his mouth, but I think he means Ralph Wilson. Just a guess.

Good luck on your quest Andrew!

nm - wrong player - thought I knew who this was.

Just for your reference ...here is the "tough" Ralph Wilson" 1960 Buffalo Bills Team Issue Photo and the envelope as an added bonus. Not many have survived.

http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/10...812aaa5cea.jpghttp://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/10...8868192678.jpg


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Agreed!!
 

+1

HoF RC's
 

Haven't posted in awhile. Here are some of my iconic RC's.

Nice centering on Namath psa 6.5 rookie.

Is this one iconic? I actually voted for this when PSA did the Mount Rushmore of football cards. HOFer, popular set, from a rare series. And aesthetically, there's just something I like about that Penn uniform. The Met made a comment about the use of primary colors when they put Burdick's collection on display for the SB - it made me think of this card:

Thanks for the comment on the Namath. It's one of my favorites. I equate it to the 1952 Topps Mantle version of football cards. Short print from a popular set, charismatic NY star and unrealized potential due to injury (what-if mystique).

Hi John,
I don't know if I would consider the 1948 Leaf Bednarik to be an iconic card. I don't mean that as a slight to the card at all. I don't even own one...yet (nice copy by the way). I think it's totally undervalued but I don't consider Bednarik to be on the same plane as Baugh with respect to legacy and historical significance. It is a great set & great player but you could also make a case for the Luckman being an iconic card as well. At some point I think you have to make a cutoff and I just stopped at Baugh.

Also, what I posted isn't an all-inclusive list of "iconic" cards, just some that I chose (my favorites).

Wow, what a bunch of great cards!!

Thanks Scott - it's an interesting discussion. I'm probably biased towards the 48 Leaf Bednarik because it's the first vintage card I ever bid on (I actually thought it meant something that I was leading the auction with 5 days to go - I was pretty clueless). I agree the 48 Leaf Baugh is iconic, but it wasn't on CU's radar. I think the 35 Nags and 65 Namath are pretty much no-brainers. Their last two were 57 Unitas and 58 Brown:

http://www.psacard.com/Articles/Arti...football-cards

I like the idea of including 57 Topps because I think its an iconic set, but an argument could have been made for the Starr too. I get including Jim Brown, but as far as the card goes - there's no rarity component and the "keyhole" set isn't particular attractive in my opinion. I'd take the 33 Goudey Grange over that one which wasn't in the discussion at all. But, the 81 Montana was in the discussion - I didn't really get that one either except fans who never heard of Friedman, Baugh, Graham, Luckman, etc. all think Montana is the goat (unless they only remember as far back as Brady and Manning, then its one of those two). And finally, there was one guy who voted for the Steve Largent rookie - no idea who that could have been :)

Before:

http://i1199.photobucket.com/albums/...T%20Hannah.jpg

After:

http://i1199.photobucket.com/albums/...nah%20Auto.jpg

Hi John,
I would select the same four that CU did for my Mt. Rushmore (interesting article by the way, thanks). The Brown isn't necessarily the toughest card to find but the black front is very susceptible to surface wear and the image is usually very blurry. I had several PSA 7's that were centered better than mine but suffered from either one or both of these problems. Eventually I decided to be more lenient on centering and look for a card that had a better image and less surface wear.

As for Bednarik, when you look at the rest of his cards in the price guides none stand out from other HoFers (1952 Bowman Large SP the exception) the way that the cards of Baugh, Graham, Unitas, Brown,etc...do. Bednarik's cards book for roughly the same amounts as Hirsch, Perry, Groza, Nomellini,etc...

That does not mean that things cannot change over time. When I was young and first collecting the NC Rockne and 1952 B Large Gifford would have made the Mt. Rushmore. At one point the Rockne was worth almost as much as the rest of the NC set (less Nags). Now, I would take just a Clark & Hinkle over a Rockne in similar condition. The Bednarik is a VERY tough card, especially centered, and it wouldn't shock me a bit that if we had this conversation sometime in the future that the Bednarik was right up there. Look at the 1948 L Satchel Paige. In the late 70's & early 80's the 1949 Bowman Paige was actually worth a little more. Now it's not even close. People come out of the woodwork when a 1948 Leaf Paige makes an appearance!



Nice Hannah auto DeBesse! How many HoF autos do you have? I'd love to do something like that but don't know enough about autos & would probably wind up w/ a bunch of forgeries. I would love to do it on 3x5 index cards.

Thanks Scott - glad you liked the article. I should have posted something here when the voting for the 4th spot was still active. Interesting observation about Clark and Hinkle relative to Rockne in the 35 Chicle set - I bet it could have been the HOF rookie set driving that. My own limited experience has been the 48 Leaf set is really popular, so I guess I wanted a card in the big four - I’d definitely have no problem with Baugh in there. And then from the point of view of NFL history - we have cards period cards of Red Grange, Benny Friedman, and Paddy Driscoll - to me those are all under appreciated. What about the Mt. Rushmore of sets? Chicle, 48 Leaf, 52 Bowman Large, and 57 Topps?

Hi Scott, I only have a few HOF autos and that's my only one on a HOF RC. I am a player collector and in football I collect Andre Tippett, Gino Cappelletti and John Hannah cards.

Hi John,
I would choose the same four sets that you listed for the Mt. Rushmore of sets & I agree about some of the players in older, rarer sets being underrated, particularly those of Grange. I think that a lot of people aren't aware of some of the older rare issues. I really didn't see that kind of stuff (and wasn't aware of it) until I started looking at Net54 and seeing the posts of Jeff Payne, clamendo, revmoran, pubilus, etc...I think that they would slap me in the face if I ever got a look at their collections because I would drool all over their cards! :)

Below is a scan from the 1983 Beckett that illustrated my point about the Rockne. It used to be worth the same amount as the Nags!

DeBesse,
Was it you that had the Hannah Alabama playing card (as well as Bear Bryant)? If so, how did you make out with the PSA grades on those? They were pretty cool!

Thanks, those were mine. The Hannah and Bryant were both shipped to PSA at the end of October and were logged in last week. It's a 50 biz day special, so I doubt I'll get grades before 2016. I'll be sure to post them when I do.

Look at price on the Tosi in there - that has certainly gained value.

Thanks Scott and Mike - appreciate the discussion! I love the 83 Beckett Chicle price guide - Scott, thanks for posting.

Tosi prices are really interesting - I don't think anyone thinks there were less Tosi cards issued than the other high numbers and I don't think anyone thinks we have a Tosi hoarder. The logical explanation is that it's a condition sensitive card and the shortage of high end examples has caused even the low end examples to become more expensive so that collectors can finish their sets. I don't think I'd auction a mid-grade Tosi right now though - too many midgrade Chicles auctioning off low - Tosi may come back to the pack with Dell Isola and the others eventually.....

Reviving this thread to ask about team issues. I haven't seen a lot of discussion of them as RCs, but seems to me that if a team issues the item it should be in the mix. Here's a 1958 Cleveland Browns TI:

https://photos.imageevent.com/exhibi...am%20issue.JPG

Also regionals. I am content calling this a RC:

https://photos.imageevent.com/exhibi...co%20Tatum.jpg

1926 Amatller

https://photos.imageevent.com/exhibi...Grange%201.JPG

These are also approx 1926 cards:

https://photos.imageevent.com/exhibi...0To%20Play.jpg
https://photos.imageevent.com/exhibi...3%2007%20a.jpg
https://photos.imageevent.com/exhibi...20Play%203.jpg