SGC T206s....It needs to be brought up, it's scary, very scary if you are a collector
 

I'm really surprised nobody has brought this subject up. But, most members on this Forum seem to prefer SGC. SGC cards are bringing a fraction of what PSA cards sell for, primarily in high grade...

I don't collect T206's, but have thought about it on investment purposes based on the factors you stated.


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Kevin, I have of course noticed the same price gaps between sgc and psa. Just curious why they won't cross?

It's not just 206s either, I have noticed the same trend on many pre and post war cards. I'm not sure if it's due to the PSA registry or the perception that the standards are tougher at PSA. But it's clear that if you're buying cards as an investment PSA is the way to go.

I'm sure a lot of it is political, for whatever that's worth. The bottom line is SGC graded cards are nowhere near as strong as PSA, especially right now. There are a couple of T206 HOFer SGC 84's on Ebay right now that are ridiculous looking for the grade.

I feel your pain, but...
 

This year I joined PSA and tried to cross a handful of high end cards ($750-$3500.). I only was successful with a Ty Cobb Colgan's Chips going from SGC 88, now PSA 8. There went a few hundred bucks out the window.

But I do know I bought the SGC cards for less - thats why I bought them. So I have decided to pay less for SGC, keep them, and be ok with that. Whenever I do sell, remember I paid less for them to begin with.

My SGC purchases are few these days, way vast majority of my stuff is PSA. For me to buy SGC they have to be 55/45 or better centered, and solid for the grade corners per my own eye. For instance, I picked up a sweet 1955 Topps Aaron SGC 88 that i swear up and down is every bit the equivalent of PSA 8, but I paid less, will keep in SGC, and be happy.

The way SGC grades off center material is one of their biggest pitfalls, they should have had OC designations like PSA - then bet SGC would fare better overall, just my 2 cents.

SGC does, however, grade a few issues PSA does not - I send them to SGC, no problems - example s74 silks, old Wheaties issues.

Pay no more than 80 percent of avg. PSA sales value,get very nice centered items, scrutinize corners with your own eye, then ok to buy SGC.

Done with crossovers, too many certain words exit my mouth. And too much money leaves my wallet.

I collect lower grade tobacco so it effects me less. I can appreciate not wanting to crack and resubmit. I have bought cards graded good and very good that if resubmitted would only grade fair or poor. Again it matters less at the low end but if you have a nm in sgc t206 and you crack and resubmit and it only scores a 6 that could be hundreds of dollars. I have to believe it's mostly a registry issue, I think the bulk of collectors are aware sgc is reputable.

I hear you, just out of curiousity, what did you pay for the SGC 88 54 Topps Aaron? Now, what's it worth in a PSA 8?

He said 55 not the rookie.

Dennis.....Again, it's about value. I have never said SGC is not reputable, they are, absolutely...What I'm talking about is true value for the dollar, it's not even close....

Thanks for the clarification Peter, but it really does not matter...

Part of it is that for the most part PSA now has incredibly strict grading standards. Today's 7 is yesterday's 8. I have seen 5s and 6s that are NM to the eye and almost certainly would have graded higher in years past. So in a sense it's not apples to apples, as SGC grading seems to have stayed more consistent.

Peter, forget all that...Come on...A T206 PSA 7 Cobb vs. an SGC 84 Cobb, same card, same centering, same everything.....Value?

not sure about post-war, but modern stuff they're handing out GEM MINT 10s left and right. imo it's great for prewar collectors if the sgc/psa value gap is that big, you get more bang for the bucks with sgc cards.

Right, so I was thinking of where the extra value came from. If both companies are reputable then there is only a limited amount of variables contributing to psa's enhanced appeal. The registry seems to be the biggest factor. However some of the grading advantages in terms of a lack of qualifiers are also valid for sure. If I was sgc I would certainly take these concerns seriously and take steps to assure customers cards values are protected.

Quan, so you obviously agree about the difference in the value, right? That is all I was trying to state at the beginning of the thread...

PSA will sell for more but in part that is because there is a perception that PSA is stricter. The registry is less of a factor than it used to be IMO. Many or most of the current major collectors have built their sets and in some cases are getting out. Low pop commons ain't what they used to be.

My perception is I have an SGC 84 Waddell that can be bought for $1250. The last PSA 7 I saw went for over $2500....Perception, or reality???

Great news!
SGC is the only way I like to go. Cheaper too? Hell yeh!

Agreed...:D

If many SGC cards are worth, say, 4/5s of PSA cards, and you pay accordingly, then no problem. That's already been going on. The only question is: are many SGC cards now plunging, or at least declining, in value? Then there's a problem. You paid less for them but now they are not even keeping their half of the "bargain." If that's what's happening.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Walter-Johns...p2047675.l2557

Buy the card, not the holder...

I have been arguing this point from the beginning..also on private deals with people here who always argue 'pre-war sgc is just as good' .

I guess buy the holder not the card

The value of most "quality" cards isn't determined by a major TPG holder. Yes will certain cards sell for more over another sure that's the hobby. Will some things in PSA get more due to registry no doubt. In the end if you're buying nice examples of cards in any grade that tick all the boxes (centering, color, register) in either SGC or PSA you will be fine.

PSA...Please
 

Has anyone here forgot how PSA launched their brand with the T206 Wagner...strict grades...what BS!

Patrick

PSA stricter?
 

Sorry Peter, I have to say BS that PSA is stricter. Here's a PSA 7 (HA!) 1952 Billy Martin for you. Who gives a rat's @$$ if the corners are sharp. You can barely make him out because of the OBVIOUS registration errors. (And for the t206 freak collectors - no, this doesn't make this card more vluable - there are TONS of cards like this troughout this set. Dozens are on Ebay right now.)

Heck, even the centering isn't great.

That card grade is garbage.

PSA should be embarassed.

Cheers,
Patrick Prickett (in case I need my full nae on this one)

PSA stricter
 

you were joking right???? Countless examples of inept grading for all the companies - see the last Heritage auction with PSA 7's that have front and back paper loss.
The major TPG's do a decent job with regard to authenticity and more easily discernable faults. You're not submitting to some kind of crime lab - for the ten bucks no-one is taking out the micrometer or neutron scale. ANYONE can render an opinion about a "grade". Such grades really only matter in terms of commerce - buying and selling the commodity.
Historically PSA cards have been shown to bring higher prices on many issues. They were first, better advertised, and developed the wildly successful registry. With the passage of time SGC has taken over the larger share of the more niche-like 19th century market and made inroads in the "T" card market. I think they do a better job, the holders look nicer, they offer excellent customer service. That said - it's a personal preference thing - you align yourself with the company whose condition/grade parameters feel "right".

right heres another 'sgc is better for prewar' it is what it is....PSA sells for more than SGC on a large scale.....theres always bad examples for each in terms of why a grade was given.....you can buy sgc cards cheaper for the same grade as psa.... which is fine for the people who want cards cheaper and who believe the card looks the same as the psa counterpart.....really no problem there....just don't expect to get the same money back as the psa counterpart ..it can happen from time to time of course..

I am not joking at all. Ask people who submit regularly (that is, people not getting favors or to put it more charitably benefits of the doubt, and I am sure there are some of those) and they will tell you that these days -- which is all I said in my post -- PSA is very strict with grades. I have seen numerous examples of this.

My observation is not at all contradicted by the fact that in its 24 year history PSA has overgraded many cards or graded many altered cards. Of course they have.

I have no doubt that if you took a cross section of mid to high grade cards with no paper loss or wrinkles, and had someone unknown to either company submit them, the PSA batch would grade lower in the aggregate. That is not a criticism of SGC, just an observation that the grading standards are not the same these days.

And putting up a single example of an overgraded PSA card to prove your point is really not a very good argument. I am talking about overall, in the aggregate, etc.

I don't know why PSA's sell for more, probably a "self fulfilling prophecy" because people think they are worth more and should sell for more so they pay more for no other reason than that. It's certainly not for PSA's beautiful holders in comparison to SGC

I keep hearing about PSA being stricter in their grading. I disagree on that, at least in the low to mid grade cards say grades 2-6. SGC has been crazy picky on some of the cards that I have had graded and when it comes to any type of paper loss I've found them to be much harder on that than PSA. I've submitted to both many times and have had many more comparison cards. Depending on the issue(s) that a card may have that usually determines where I send it (that and whether or SGC has a good monthly special :) ) If the card has a small amount of paper loss I can be certain that SGC is going to grade that 1.5 or maybe 2. I can usually get a 3 out PSA all other things being equal.

Fair point. I was not really talking about low grade cards with wrinkles or paper loss, but mid to high grade cards where the grade is going to depend on centering and corners.

response...
 

Kevin, I looked on ebay at the last 4 sold 1955 Topps Aaron PSA 8's. They ranged from $1,366. to $1,654. The SGC 88 I bought in 2014 I paid $850. plus $18. shipping. Bad news is big difference between SGC 88 and PSA 8. Good news is I paid $850. for the SGC 88. I am happy with the card, especially for the price I paid. Whenever I sell the card, I must remember what I paid and adjust expectations accordingly. I would imagine an Aaron run is a super highly competitive arena in the registry game - probably the biggest reason for difference?

..
 

I'm going to have to agree about the value but then disagree as far as grading is concerned. SGC is far better and light years more consistent than PSA is concerned.

SGC's presentation is far better. PSA's holder I feel keeps the card more secure though.

PSA's resale value is second to none. Why well it's the name of course. It's like selling a Kershaw(PSA) to a Chris Sale(SGC). One is overhyped and loses in the playoffs every year. And one quietly goes about his business dominating. But because the other is from LA (Kershaw/PSA) who gets more attention ????

I'll always like and trust SGC's grading consistency over PSA. I will also note that I will not buy a card slabbed with anything other than SGC or PSA.

Understood. From what I've seen from you and the OP you guys tend to be more involved in the higher graded cards than I am so I have no frame of reference on those 6-8 type grades. I usually spend money on rarer backs and HOF as opposed to the ultra high grade so I've never subbed those high grades.

I have had several situations with paper loss with SGC that floored me with their strict grading. I had a BEAUTIFUL Zack Wheat that had some small paper chipping in the lower right corner. The card looked like at least a 7 it was that nice. But b/c of that small paper chip they gave it a 1.5. And that's just one example.

In regards to PSA vs SGC pricing, in my opinion I for the most part trust both companies grading and review of the cards the same in regards to trusting the card is what it is. If I am buying off EBAY I am not more or less worried about the card if its PSA or SGC. I personally wouldn't pay a dollar more for a PSA over an SGC with the same grade or vice versa if the cards looked to be in identical condition.

There are 2 reasons I have more SGC's that PSA and neither have to do with the quality of the grading. 1 is that normally it cost $17 per card with PSA and I can get it for $10 at SGC with their specials. The second reason is that as the OP said, PSA tends to sell for more so I've been able to get the SGC for cheaper.

The part I don't get is the PSA people always say my cards sell for more. So what they paid more to get the card. A real comparison would be the difference in increase/decrease in value and not the selling price.

paying more for for the same grade for the psa versus the SGC proves they sell for more.

I do agree I don't think grading standards are better for PSA or that their holders are better .....its the analogy of the other thread about would you buy from someone you not like and I said if they are handing you free money or a bargain I think most people would put their feelings behind and buy the card

if a PSA and SGC card were selling for the same price from a private seller and the card looks the same I don't think the SGC lovers will end up buying the SGC card, they will take the PSA card because of sell price...even if they don't like the holder and don't think their grading standards are better.......money talks.

No comparison at all between PSA and SGC values on CJ 14s. Quite stark and one of the most obvious pre-war. I imagine it's the registry.

When you say SGC cards won't "cross", is it safe to assume you mean they don't often crossover to the equivalent PSA grade?

You're not suggesting they won't cross at all, are you?

I cross stuff all the time
 

I have very little problems getting cards that deserve the grade to cross. If you are picky and dont just assume it's going to cross I have had great success. I'd say around 70-80%. I usually crack those that don't cross and probably get the grade I wanted on about half of those. I have only had one come back altered after cracking I did miss the minor alteration and could see how the graders did as well so it didn't upset me they are human after all. I do agree that over a certain dollar amount they are very reluctant to cross cards. I am talking about under 5 figure cards.

I think if you randomly picked ten T206 cards in PSA 7 and ten T206 cards in SGC 84/7, and cracked them all out of their slabs, and sent them all to PSA, I'd think you'd find a significant number in both samples that would receive a grade lower than 7. I think the grading standards at PSA have gotten tougher in general where it can be more difficult to get cards in higher graded slabs than in the past. Saying that however, every collector who buys cards should look at the card before looking at the grade first. Think about how you think the raw card should grade, and then determine if the grade it did receive merited it. If you have a card that is strong for it's grade in an SGC holder, I would say that it would almost certainly cross over to PSA at that same grade or better.

I just buy sgc cards assuming ill get one grade lawyer with PSA...if sellers don't give value it like that than I don't buy the card...as time has gone on I have found more and more sellers willing to value the card one grade lower...afterall if the sellers are in the business to make money and they know a PSA sells for more..they would of cross graded it for the same grade if they were able or thought able too....thus I ask for the 1 grade lower discount..

Sometimes it's a pain to cross it even if you think the card will cross at the same grade. If you add the shipping costs both ways to the grading fee and add in say a 10% chance that the card won't cross even if you think it should, that's too much risk + cost to many sellers. However, as a card buyer, I agree that if you can get a one grade discount, that's definitely a way to protect yourself.

I don't think anyone sends their cards to SGC thinking they will get a higher grade than they would if they sent the card to PSA. Instead, it's usually they trust SGC to be more consistent with their grading, have better customer service, and get their cards back faster. In addition, if they have mixed size or different service level cards, SGC is more affordable.

I used to send 90% of my submissions to SGC, I now send 90% to PSA.

Outside of turnaround time PSA beats SGC up and down the block in everything else.

In the past 3 years the following actions have taken place by the companies.

SGC:
Revamped registry site, minimal improvement. Still irrelevant compared to PSA.
Changed flip and rechanged after customers voiced displeasure.

PSA:
New case which is harder to tamper with.
New Flip.
Upgraded Registry to allow for photo albums.
Released app that allows you to scan or input the registration number.

To me, it seems like either SGC isn't trying, doesn't want to improve , or is inept at marketing.

Brent Ingr@m

I agree with everything you said.....plus I wonder how market share is with the 25-45 year olds..who will be defining the buying market the next 20 years..i assuming psa is getting a bigger market share ...

Piggy backing on what I said earlier about it being a "self fulfilling prophecy" I really do think it is a heard mentality. People think PSA is better cause that's what other people are telling them. Its almost like certain auctions that take place and their stuff sells for more just because they are selling it. Have you ever noticed when PWCC has an auction on EBAY their cards sell for about 30%or more than they would if I were selling them. I looked at that previous auction that closed recently and compared it to almost identically graded cards selling at the same time by individual buyers and they were going for way more. Tolstoi PSA 3's by an individual selling for in the $80s PWCC going for $110-120. In short its a reputation that has no real gold backing the currency so to speak. People just think its better.

If an industry wide rumor started next week that SGC was better within a month you would see the pricing reverse.

when talking about things with no real useful purpose....value is what people will pay for things...so whatever mentality it is why people by things..its the fact they are buying them.....value is what someone will pay for it..so what people think no matter what the reason is what the market is..

Agree with you 100% I think there are two questions, one of which seems to have been answered "yes" by the sell history. Does a PSA sell for higher on average than SGC - yes. The other being is PSA actually better than SGC and actually adds value because of something tangible, i.e. finds flaws that the other doesn't find thus its grades are more legit or is it just because that it is generally accepted to be the case. As you said, either way, the market is the market regardless of the reason. But as anything that doesn't have real value, that is subject to change depending on how the wind blows popular opinion. Spend a lot of money today on PSA because that's the "rumor" and you could lose a lot tomorrow because the "rumor" changes.

I think PSA is the #1 TPG because they innovate and market their product. That is what drives their brand, not collectors following rumors.
Case in point: do a web search of baseball card grading blogs/articles and you'll see people listing the 2 major TPGs as PSA and Beckett. It's quite sad actually.

PSA is so strong that you would be talking a major major rumer...some rumors that could further kill the other TPG would do nothing to PSA......anything can happen of course but going to take more than just a normal 'rumor' to change the current perception of the ebay buyers out there..

If SGC was smart they'd rebrand their registry by allowing other TPG holders so that collectors with mixed sets could register all their cards in one spot.

I always wondered that...I also wondered why hasn't PSA made a mid grade classification for older cards...best psa 4-5 set etc....so all of sudden people would be fighting for and bidding on psa 5 goudeys for example....in boxing you have different weight classes...my analogy would be you could be the best in your class..even its psa 5

in addition...to protect from fraud I wonder why they don't allow registered owners to be contacted by prospective buyers of a card (in a way to protect privacy ) to see if the card they are bidding on is real...example..you see a cert verified 1952 mantle psa 4...and would like to bid on it..wouldn't it be nice to have an email sent to the person that owns that card who can advise if his card is really on ebay..?

I would love to send a T206 to BGS just to see the confusion on the graders face

I believe you are correct.

PSA tries to reach the younger demographic. While both have Twitter accounts, PSA uses theirs, while SGC hasn't posted in several years. It's FREE advertising, yet SGC ignores it.

This should matter to collectors with cards in SGC slabs. In 10 years, will SGC slabs be considered equal to GAI or worse? You can say buy the card, not the holder, but I think we can agree that it doesn't happen consistently.

Beckett Vintage Grading would grade a T206 and they probably know what one is.

As for the debate about SGC vs PSA. If it is a registry card then PSA has the dominance. If it isn't then not so much.

I used to be an SGC guy, but 2 years ago I pointed out on thier POP reports they have cards errors and sets mixed together and they didn't care to correct. It is impossible to sort many of their sets on the POP report as well. Then....I submitted 2 cards for autograph authentication, both of which I got signed personally and they came back and wouldn't authenticate. Thier lack of ability to authenticate autographs also hurts the brand in my eyes. Also, given they are so much smaller of a company, they are one or two guys away from not being able to continue the business. I do not see a long-term succession plan for those folks who are grading.
In conclusion, I still buy some SGC cards but I'll send my raw cards to PSA as I've lost some confidence in SGC and I would urge no one to use or buy cards from their autograph authentication service.

Cory Weiser

Market share
 

One of the primary issues that is driving the spread is market share. Collectors Universe is obviously a publicly traded company and has to report various metrics and one of those is market share.

Last year in one of their quarterly reports they indicated that they have 90% of the new card submission market. SGC has 1 or 2 points of market share for all cards being graded currently.

Take position bias out of the discussion and if you are in an industry where another competitor is this much larger you aren't even considered relevant.

I have used SGC once and their customer service was great and I was pleased with the grading accuracy and presentation in the holder. That said I have no illusions that those cards will ever sell for what they would in comparable grades in a PSA holder.

PSA is the 800 pound gorilla at this point and the values have followed.

right when I first came on net54...it was real hard to reach deals on sgc cards when I didn't agree to pay the same price as psa cards of the same level.....the market share on net54 is like 90% of SGC..at least that's what it feels like on BST on the big cards.....but in the outside world PSA dominates

The registry is a powerful drug.

Psa
 

Just to be clear, I never had any of my cards graded by PSA, but I am seriously beginning to think about crossing them over to their slabs, if I do decide to sell them in the future.

If I am reading their website correctly, if I have a card valued at $10,000+, I have to choose the same day service of $500 per card?? That seems absurd. Do I have this correct? I can't use the 5 day service of $35.00 a card?

Thanks,
Tony

Yes, you would use the $500 fee. You could choose the $35 fee, but if PSA loses or damages your card, they could use the declared value that you stated as the basis for compensating you. Therefore, you need to choose a value that you could stomach.

If the card is already in an SGC slab and it's a 10K+ card, I really don't know if I would bother the crossover. If the card does not cross at the grade you want it, you would still be out the $500 fee and the card would still be in the existing slab.

Edited... I hate typing on phones

SGC has gone stagnant. Their set registry is non-existent, the pop reports are atrocious and the holders have obvious flaws. Any market share they had is going out the window. Speaking as a collector, I used to be exclusively SGC, but even their turn around times have slipped. Never thought I would go PSA, but I have....and am realizing more money because of it.

James Feagin

I'm more or less a PSA registry addict, so I only buy PSA cards. When I get a catalog, I skip the SGC cards.

The one exception would be if it's an SGC card that I can't find in a PSA holder. Then if I win it I cross it over to PSA.

Here is a link to one of my HOF sets:

http://www.psacard.com/PSASetRegistr...t.aspx?s=18882

I am confused with this comment:

"SGC T206s....It needs to be brought up, it's scary, very scary if you are a collector"

Shouldn't it say "it's scary if you are an "investor"?

I personally am a collector, first and foremost. I am not interested in the registry game nor whether my collection is going to triple in price in the next 5 years. Therefore, I am more than happy to buy a nicely centered, crease free SGC 40 T206 at a fraction of the price of a PSA 4. Just means I can finish my set faster.

Mark

I agree...for a collector SGCs are terrific if not worried about re-sale....

If you are investing wouldn't the smart thing be to buy SGC cards at 1-2 grade below PSA prices then cross them over?

Sgc
 

I still am a SGC guy because of the flips, and service and the arrogance of PSA over the years,.... but I to am wondering why they refuse to market themselves better .....I think the registry is ugly and not a real improvement as was their first new flip....they seriously need a sharp graphic guy or gal and someone that's knows how to market themselves ..I still think there is a heck of an opportunity for someone who is capitalized to partner or purchase the brand....I hope it happens ...the sooner the better....

Why are SGC cards losing value? Sale price really means nothing if you do not account for purchase price.

Perhaps they are content with the business as it is.

Will SGC's upcoming move from Jersey to Fla be a good thing, bad thing or no big deal?

As a long time collector that has used SGC exclusively for grading pre-war, their turnaround times have been very disappointing lately and it seems that their consistency has slipped. What other business can you think of that you pay for a 10 day turn around that takes 20+ days? It appears that they may need a shake up at SGC before they loose a lot of loyal customers. I renewed my PSA membership this week as I plan to slowly begin the process of crossing over to PSA just for the reason that Kevin brought up. I am a true collector first and foremost; however, I would like the greatest return once I choose to sell off my collection.

I never sell, but i can say i like the look of the sgc holder better, as well think its more of a secure holder than psa.

I do buy, t205's and ruths graded by sgc, psa, bvg and raw. I always buy the card not the holder.

In economic marketplaces you need at least two healthy companies to spur competition in creating innovation as well as consumer focused pricing and service. I'm a PSA supporter but hope that SGC and BVG can get their acts together. No one wants a TPG monopoly. Investing in technology (websites that are mobile responsive and look like this decade a good start) and marketing is much needed.

In my experience over the last 24 months, I've cracked 50+ cards out of SGC holders and received an average of 1 grade lower per PSA grading standards. (after the first couple times sending the cards in the holders for crossover and receiving uniformly lower grades, I always break them out first and surprisingly get the same results).

As I was saying about PSA being stricter these days...

SGC is moving to Florida?

I also tend to send more of my submissions to PSA, but I still send some to both SGC and Beckett every year, and like AJ, I would like to see a competitive market rather than a monopoly. Frankly, I think since SGC is a smaller company and needs to conserve their capital, I think they should just stick with their bread and butter which is consistent and strong grading, great customer service and delivering cards within their expected turnaround times. They are already foraying into autograph authentication, so let them digest and perfect that before moving onto techy gizmos and the like. I also think that the registry wars are already over. PSA has won that battle. So instead of trying to outdo PSA there, I would just try to have a simple registry that acts more like a checklist that collectors can use rather than battle on points. As others have suggested, allow cards from other TPG's or even raw cards. If they wanted to splurge on their registry, I would have them partner with a company like VCP, so they could integrate current market values into the cards listed on the registry to that collectors could get a rough idea on how much their collection is worth. I know people don't like to say it's investing, but still if people could see their cards like an investment portfolio, it might be a nice touch.

That's what I heard awhile ago.
The owner, Dave Forman lives in Fla so it makes sense for his company to be there too.

true purchase price counts..if both cards are a '3' and the sgc is bought for 100 and the psa is bought for 200....and they sell for the same amounts...than neither card lost value

i think the discussion is when you look at sales prices for a '3'...the PSAs sell for more than the SGCs ..

whats the issue is i think people that have kept cars for a number of years back when the 3's were being sold at the same price....now are attempting to sell the card and they are seeing that the 3s from the SGC don't sell in general as much as the 3's for PSA....

CMIZE that started the thread wasn't talking about new purchases..he is concerned about purchases he made long ago and how his SGC cards appear to have lost their value from when he bought it.....so that's what i believe people mean about PSA keeping their value..

if you look at B/S/T you will see sellers wanting the same money for their SGC as the PSA counterpart and its just not happening more and more...they have to sell them for less........but yes..now that it does appears that SGCS are being bought for less..they aren't losing value as they may of 4 years ago when they were being bought for the same as their counterparts....

right, i will buy an SGC card considering it will crossover 1 grade lower.....yet dealers to this day and i suspect many at the National ..will get mad if you make an offer on an SGC 3 card based on VCP of a PSA 2 ..