OT: Greatest Living Four
 

Do you agree!? Who would you have!?

Should be a fun topic! I know the late Mr. DiMaggio was very adamant to be known as and announced as The Greatest Living Ball Player for every show he did.

What's your list!


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Hard to argue against the four that were chosen:

Aaron, Bench, Koufax, & Mays

Those would be my choices also.

I presume you do not intend to include active players.
So... Mays, Aaron, Frank Robinson, Schmidt off the top of my head.

OT: Greatest Living Four
 

Correct, I think it should have been Living Legends or something to advertise it's the older gentlemen. Or, Bonds, A-Rod and Pedro and in for me lol.

Would Yogi fit?


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Aaron, Mays, Schmidt, Jeter. Insert Rose & Bonds in place of the last two if not for their "issues."

Bonds, Pedro, Mays, Schmidt - but I can probably consider at least 10 others

I agree on 3 of the 4- Aaron, Mays, Koufax- but think Jeter should be there instead of Bench. I wonder if being a Hall of Famer had something do do with the selections...

How do you leave Seaver out of the mix? I know his career was substantially longer, but he had nearly 150 more wins , 1,200 more K's, and a career ERA that was basically the same.

Sandy had an amazing 4 year run, something that will probably never be seen again with the way pitchers are currently dealt with, but let's not negate "Tom Terrific"

Aaron, Mays, Berra, & Ford

Yogi

Mays, Aaron, Rose, Berra

Mays,Schmidt,Seaver,Rose

Aaron, Mays, Koufax & Kaline

Aaron, Mays, Koufax, Rickey Henderson

Aaron, Mays, Rose, Koufax (he looked good)..

1. Mays
2. Bonds
3. Aaron
4. Clemens

-Al

I would go Seaver over Koufax

What about Sadaharu Oh?

Assuming we aren't counting frozen Ted Williams on the list.

Mays
Aaron
Yasrzemski
Ryan

Mays, Aaron, Ryan and Rose Bonds Clemens Cal

I think they got it right....

Wouldn't have hurt my feelings to see them extend it to a few more players and add:

Nolan Ryan

+ many

my list
 

Why do we stop at four? My list is 9.

Hank Aaron
Willie Mays
Pete Rose
Nolan Ryan
Mike Schmidt
Sandy Koufax
Reggie Jackson
Rickey Henderson
Johnny Bench

That's just what they had for the ASG.



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Frank Robinson gets no love? Way under appreciated.

Koufax
Mays
Aaron
Seaver

Agreed

This is my 4 also.

the 1st 2 are no-brainers
Mays
Aaron
Rose
Yogi

PC List:

Aaron
Mays
Maddux
Henderson

Non-PC List
Aaron
Mays
Rose
Bonds


Steve

This is my four!

Agreed as well

You want to leave Sandy off? He tossed a strike without even looking tonight in throwing out first pitch. He could probably sign as situational lefty today and have 1.20 era...

Koufax pitched the very first game I ever saw at Dodger Stadium. I was five and it was his last year. I have been a huge fan of his ever since.

After Mays, lots of good answers for the other three.

Aaron
Mays
Griffey, Jr.
Rose

I'd pick a pitcher, but couldn't decide between Maddux, Clemens, Seaver, Ryan, Koufax, Carlton, Gibson, Martinez, etc. Bonds also is problematic. I like Frank Robinson, but he may be the overrated underrated guy.

I am fine the selections. I could have seen Yogi over Bench...they are two of the all-time greats but were different sorts of players. Can't go wrong with either and it was great for Bench to go out there in front of the hometown crowd. Jeter wouldn't make my top 10, but that's why baseball is the best sport to argue. I concur Schmidt and Ryan are worthy of consideration and will one day be representing the greatest living players..and deservedly so.

Four Horsemen
 

Yogi B.
P. Rose
B. Robinson
N. Ryan

I.M.H.O.

Aaron, Mays, Gibson, Ryan

List
 

Mike Blowers, Andy Stankewicz, Kiko Garcia, Mickey Klutz

Wait, sorry - wrong list ...

Mays
Aaron
Koufax
Nolan Ryan

Seventh game of the World Series, who do you pitch - Seaver, Ryan, Koufax or Gibson? I have to go Gibson.

Bench is not top 4 living, they had him there for the Reds fans, but I don't know why they didn't choose Frank Robinson.

Mays, Aaron, Koufax(I'm biased), Pedro

Koufax had one of the best five year runs ever but if I was picking one pitcher I would definitely choose Randy Johnson, Maddux or Seaver as having greater careers.

He was on my list. I saw much of him in Baltimore in my youth. Had he played for bigger market teams, his stock would be much higher, IMO.

Definitely not Ryan. Tossup as to the others.

After Aaron, Koufax, and Mays, you could throw a dart at all the other players named in this thread and have the best living 4. Another possibility for the 4th player, whom I don't believe has yet been mentioned, is Mariano Rivera.
Val

There was nobody better for a 4 or maybe 5 year stretch, but Koufax's career doesn't touch Seaver, or Gibson, or Carlton, or Clemens, or Maddux.

Can't believe all the Nolan Ryan picks. Way, way down the list. Look at the e.r.a., for one thing...

I assume that they were looking for players from the 50's & 60's era, plus one Cincy player.

I would have went with Aaron, Mays, Koufax and Frank Robinson (Cincy player). I assume they went with Bench because they wanted a player who spent his whole career in Cincy.

Rose was left out because he is still not fully accepted back into baseball by MLB yet. The fact that they let him be part of pre-game was a major step forward.

If they were not insisting on a Reds player, Yogi Berra should have definitely been included. He could have even bumped Koufax, but I think they wanted a pitcher included.

Bench revolutionized the catcher's roll and made it an art form.

Aaron, Bench, Koufax, Mays - and Schmidt would have been my fifth.
.
.

But that doesn't necessarily make him better. Without Richard Pryor there is no Eddie Murphy, but that doesn't make Pryor unimpeccably better. If this were a discussion of who contributed more to the game then this argument could be valid. With the word greatest we aren't left with subjective ambiguity like we are with the Hall of Fame or MVP Award.

Nolan ryan
6 no hitters
all time strikeouts leader...will Never have this record beat.

To me that soldifies him on this list...too bad he played for generally bad teams

I agree!

I was pretty happy with the 4 that were chosen - Stirred lots of memories for me all in the matter of just a few minutes.....Awesome

Aaron---Mays---Koufax---Rose

I think it's tough to make this decision without having seen the players during their careers. I'm also biased towards Seaver as a Mets fan who grew up on him but also remember the long downside of his career -- which didn't exist for Koufax thus the strong memeories he left in fans' minds.

+1 - George Thomas Seaver is baseball's greatest living pitcher. His WAR & JAWS stats are the final nail in the coffin to justify that stance. Only Clemens has better WAR stats among living pitchers and we all know jolly Roger's use of steroids after he left Boston bump him from any top 10 list discussion.....he was a blatant cheater!

Jeff - here's a few Seaver stats few people are aware of: 1) After his first 15 seasons that cover approximately 4,000 innings pitched, his lifetime ERA was an incredible 2.60!!! Talk about an unparalleled combination of peak value and longevity. 2) Along with Walter Johnson, Seaver is one of only 2 pitchers EVER who won 300+ games, post 3,000+ strikeouts and have a sub-3.00 lifetime ERA...... wow!

Joe T.

I have primarily collected Nolan Ryan since 1988, when I was 13. However, I would not put him on the 'Four Greatest Living Players' list. His accomplishments will never be duplicated, BUT his ERA was higher (though many teams would love to have him today) and look at the number of walks he issued in his career!

Great guy, yes. Hall of Famer, yes. One of the top 50 greatest living players, yes.

Aaron, Mays, Rose, Seaver.

+1

Just looking at the stats on the field I'd go with Bonds, Clemens, Mays, and Aaron.

But if you want to disqualify any or all of those four guys for PEDs, here are the next four: Seaver, A-Rod, Randy Johnson, Schmidt.

3 of the 4 were spot on...but Bench? No way...he's not even the greatest living catcher. Yogi should have been there...that 4 I could have 100% agreed on!

Do you remember when you heard he was traded for Doug Flynn, Pat Zachry and Steve Henderson? One of the darkest days of my youth. I still cringe when hearing the name "M. Donald Grant."

Not saying I don't get Koufax…I do, but another pitcher who played at the same time and hasn't gotten any love is Juan Marichal. ERA and srikeouts are comparable but she won 80+ more games and won 100 games more than he lost.

Absolutely Jeff.....the "Midnight Massacre"! What a horrible day that was for all faithful Met fans.

Just to be different than others that were mentioned so much:

"The Big Hurt" Frank Thomas
"The Big Unit" Randy Johnson
"Pudge" Carlton Fisk
Joe Torre

Mays, Aaron, Rose, Bonds

The years they pitched together, Koufax led the NL in wins 2 times, tied with Marichal once, Marichal never led the league by himself. Koufax led in era 5 times, Marichal 0. Koufax led in strike outs 4 times, Marichal 0. Koufax led in FIP 6 times, Marichal 0. Koufax led in WHIP 4 times, Marichal 1. Koufax led in Ks/9 6 times, Marichal 0.

You say strike outs and era are comparable? Marichal's high for Ks was 248. Koufax had seasons of 382, 317, and 306. Ks/9 Koufax 9.3 Marichal 5.9. Marichal's best era was 2.13. Koufax's last 4 seasons were 1.88, 1.74, 2.04 and 1.73. How are those comparable? There is good reason why Koufax won 3 Cy Youngs, 1 MVP, 2 MVP runner-ups and 2 World Series MVPs during those years and Marichal didn't get a single Cy Young vote.

In 1965, Walter Alston had the choice to pitch a Hofer on full rest or pitch Koufax on 2 days rest in game 7. He chose Koufax and Koufax pitched his 2nd shutout in 3 games. I'd pitch Koufax over Gibson, but I wouldn't argue with anyone picking Gibby. The only 2 players with multiple World Series MVPS and the 2 best big game pitchers of the modern era, but Koufax's better post season era 0.95 to 1.89 makes the difference to me.

Did Juan go the same route that Bruce Jenner went ???

Is she know known as Juanita ? ;)

Offensively, I would go with:

Aaron
Mays
F Robby
Bonds

Pitching-wise, I would say:

Big Unit
Seaver
Maddux
Pedro

Sandy Koufax's standing amongst baseballs greatest pitchers ever will always be a huge conundrum with no definitive resolution in sight. While he is the irrefutable greatest peak value pitcher ever (1963 - 1966), his overall standing is marred with question marks. First & foremost is the fact that he excelled in the most formidable decade ever for pitchers. Through 1968, the 15 inch mound was a major reason for some of the most incredible single season pitching performances. It wasn't until they lowered the rubber to 10 inches in 1969 that a somewhat equal balance was restored. Additionally, how about Koufax's first 7 seasons which were extremely poor to average at best? How do you truly measure his extreme success vs. His extreme failures over a 7 year period? It all comes down to establishing an equitable balance between longevity and peak success and, sorry to say, Koufax falls short on this basis to the likes of Seaver. Carlton, Palmer, Johnson, Maddux, etc. That is why the JAWS concept of rating players is widely accepted by many experts for it measures a players career WAR AT 50% and his best 7 seasons at the remains 50% , thus combining peak value and longevity. Interestingly enough, excluding the cheater Roger Clemens, Seaver leads all post-WW II pitchers in both WAR & JAWS with Maddux and Johnson right behind Seaver. Simply srated, an incredible 4/5 year run that ranks as the finest ever is still not formidable enough to place a pitcher as king of the hill when it is not coupled with ANY additional formidable seasons.

There are only 3 pitchers in history to have won the Triple Crown three times:

Sandy Koufax
Walter Johnson
Grover Cleveland Alexander

Those three names belong together. Juan Marichal does not.

Cal, Brooks, Eddie and Palmer. What can I say? I'm a homer!

I believe we already saw it at the turn of the century, with 2 different pitchers.

top 5
 

Vintageclout remarks on the height of the pitching mound - and how it helped Koufax. I have even heard stories of the Dodgers fooling with the mound even more for additional help for Koufax (only rumor to my knowledge, but?) Ryan started to throw his insane stuff after mound was dropped. Can you imagine how many no-hitters he would have had if he played a decade earlier? Oh, My! Ryan is a very unique pitcher that you have to analyze "outside the box" for full appreciation - not so cut and dry by just looking at a few mathematical numbers. And the poor team he played for, come on, sure didn't help. I saw him live many times at Anaheim Stadium, The Big A. The crowd was on a special heightened awareness of anticipation each time he pitched. Many times (not always) pure awesomeness! Like M.C. Hammer said, "Can't touch this".

Back to 4, how about 5: Berra, Ryan, Mays, Aaron & Koufax.

That's your opinion. I was able to watch Koufax pitch. He was the best I've ever seen. His performance over those 4-5 seasons along with his brilliance in the post season make it easy for me to say he was the best pitcher of the modern era and the greatest lefty of all time.

You simply can't use JAWS for Koufax. First of all, bringing up his early years makes me question your knowledge of baseball history. In 1954, the Dodgers signed a player named Roberto Clemente as a bonus baby. Because they sent him to the minors, the Pirates were able to draft him that fall from the Dodgers. So, when the Dodgers signed Sandy Koufax in 1955, they weren't going to repeat that mistake. Koufax couldn't be sent to the minors. Unlike Tom Seaver, Randy Johnson, etc. , Koufax couldn't develop pitching against weak competition, he had to pitch against the best and his stats suffered.

Second, we don't know what Koufax would have done after 1966. He didn't have access to the modern medicine of today and chose to retire in his prime. There is no doubt in my mind that if he had chosen career over long term health, he would have continued to be the best pitcher in baseball, winning Cy Youngs, MVPS and World Championships and this wouldn't even be a debate.

I would go with
Nolan Ryan
Hank Aaron
Cal Ripken
Willie Mays

It goes back to how you judge them. The value over the career was greater for Marichal than Koufax as he won 100 more games (nearly) and had a better win percentage on teams that were not as successful. He was not popular, both because of his nationality and deportment and the fact that he wrapped a bat around John Roseboro's head. That contributed to his poor showing in popularity contests. If you want to make the argument the Koufax was better over a short period of time and Marichal was better over a long period of time, I have no beef with that.

My living four:

Sandy Koufax
Hank Aaron
Greg Maddux
Rickey Henderson