Altered high grade E93s in Mile High?
 

Gee, those high grade E93s sure look altered to me. Thoughts?

A sample: PSA 9 Cobb: http://www.milehighcardco.com/LotDet...entoryid=39084

PSA 9 Wagner: http://www.milehighcardco.com/1910_E...-lot39083.aspx

I'm not too sure, I'm no expert, keen too see everyone else's thoughts.

^ You might have to put you're full name under the post.

-Owen

I don't know. That's why I like my vintage cards to look "vintage". When they are perfect, they look fake.

I'd rather not put my full name under my post.

I'm certainly not an expert, but other than looking too good to be true, what specifically makes you think these could be altered?

The bottom right corner of the Wagner does look a little off to me.

https://c2.staticflickr.com/4/3873/1...18fa7ef2_b.jpg

https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/384/18...0a12dd1f_c.jpg


https://c4.staticflickr.com/4/3898/1...3de664d1_b.jpg

https://c2.staticflickr.com/4/3718/1...a0a38684_c.jpg

https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/514/19...916f6c22_c.jpg

I guess I'm not seeing it either. The pic of the Cobb 5 is not even close to the 9 they would have to rebuild that bottom right corner so I would say that one is out. The 6 seems close but it has a diagonal line going from the edge to Cobbs shoulder area plus looks to be a black print dot beside his hat that is not on the 9 either.

Now the Wagner looks really close on the front with what we call in the print industry as a "hickey". Seems to be in the same place on the card but that can happen as I've seen them pull sheets in a run that the hickey is in the same spot of the first 20 sheets and is either fixed or fills in on its own as the run keeps going. There are a few spots on the back of the Wagner that are not on the example of the 6 (could be that the image quality is too bad but you should see it).

So if I'm understanding the comparisons correctly they seem close but not exact. Just my opinion though.

They're the same cards.

Oh my.......

For what it's worth, the Wagner cert #50082111 and the Cobb cert #50082116 no longer exist in the PSA cert database, which usually means the card has been cracked out, and the cert returned to PSA. (The Cobb cert #20082114 still exists.)

The two non-9 Cobbs are only two cert numbers apart. Different cards same sub presumably.

OMG!!!

The Wagner has a black printing dot by his right ear on both cards.

Tony

Wow Jeff,

The similarities in the Wagner cards are striking. There are other minor printing defects that match up perfectly on the two cards.

It's sad to say but this sort of thing sours me on the hobby so much :(

Best,
Scott

totally agree!

Not that I could ever afford a mint caramel or tobacco Hall of Famer, but threads like this make me appreciate my mostly fair to very good pre-war collection.

So do you have the smoking gun or are you going on circumstantial evidence counselor?

Fair question but I'd rather not say. Not on Net 54 anyway.

Jeff--on the Cobb I can see the 6 turning into the 9. However, if you are saying the 5 became the 6, which became the 9, I can't see that. The 6 has a stain in the UL corner (viewer's UL) that is not on the 5. The Wagner I can absolutely see. Great work!
Can you say if this is the doing of a soon to be incarcerated offender, or a hopefully in the future incarcerated offender?

I can't see the 6 becoming the 9. The orange color shift down on the 6 leads me to believe the 5 became the 9. JMO.........................

My first thought when seeing the auction was that they had been given a " bath".
The orange background on the Cobb is washed out

are any of these from the former jim b collection?

No

I'm not sure about the Cobbs, I also think if one was turned into a 9 it was more likely the 5 than the 6 because of the registration.

The Wagners are a different story.
The fisheye behind his head makes the pair more suspect than I'd be comfortable with. Fisheyes are from debris on the offset blanket, and can be on only one card or several, probably fewer back then, potentially hundreds in the 70's probably fewer today.

But the odds of two cards with the same defect in the same spot surviving in really nice condition over a century from (I presume) different original sources? Outside of two finds like the black swamp group, that's pushing the envelope a bit too far.
Now if they were beaters...........Yeah, that stuff happens and two worn cards with the same flaw wouldn't be a surprise.

Steve Birmingham

The Matty is washed out also
Jim B's is much nicer

What a tangled web of sh&t this "hobby" is sometimes.

Quotes Jimi: "Now if 6 turned out to be 9
I don't mind, I don't mind."

Not a bad payday for taking out some stains.

Tough to tell on the Cobb. It looks like the Wagner has been submitted a few times. These all have the black fisheye by the ear, but the red backgrounds appear to have subtle differences, which could just be due to scanner settings.

<a href="http://s408.photobucket.com/user/bbcemporium/media/wagner%208-5_zpsqc6yeq9r.jpeg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i408.photobucket.com/albums/pp164/bbcemporium/wagner%208-5_zpsqc6yeq9r.jpeg" border="0" alt=" photo wagner 8-5_zpsqc6yeq9r.jpeg"/></a>
<a href="http://s408.photobucket.com/user/bbcemporium/media/wagner%207-5_zpsae3kcxvu.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i408.photobucket.com/albums/pp164/bbcemporium/wagner%207-5_zpsae3kcxvu.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo wagner 7-5_zpsae3kcxvu.jpg"/></a>
<a href="http://s408.photobucket.com/user/bbcemporium/media/Wanger%209_zps2tkarwwy.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i408.photobucket.com/albums/pp164/bbcemporium/Wanger%209_zps2tkarwwy.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo Wanger 9_zps2tkarwwy.jpg"/></a>
<a href="http://s408.photobucket.com/user/bbcemporium/media/Wagner%206_zpsu6f7hwij.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i408.photobucket.com/albums/pp164/bbcemporium/Wagner%206_zpsu6f7hwij.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo Wagner 6_zpsu6f7hwij.jpg"/></a>

(edited to add the PSA 6 and PSA 9 scans for comparison)

There's a higher percentage of convicted criminals in the baseball card auction house business than there is in the Mafia (not that I'm being critical of Mile High because all they did is accept the consignments). None of this should be a surprise.

Jeff, besides soaking, are there other suspected alterations on the cards?

Well,
I think a big share of the blame falls on the TPG.
It's fairly obvious to the naked eye those cards all have the washed out look from being soaked in chemicals.
"Don't get cheated"







Craig Lipman

Wags is 99%

Cobbs are very very close, likely the same but really need a better scan.

http://i.imgur.com/auxnUBS.gif

It's certainly hard to argue with the evidence.

I've seen this question asked before on similar threads, but do you guys believe that PSA simply missed this or that they're in on it some how?

personally I think they are not capable of detecting such alterations.

It's hard to understand. They have some very experienced people, and you would hope that before giving NINES to very expensive cards, that are almost never seen in that grade, those people would be consulted and that these weren't just the decision of a novice or low level grader. On the other hand, the conspiracy version of the explanation isn't really credible either.

i agree Peter...maybe they funnel such cards as these to the inexperienced graders so the likelihood of them passing muster is greater???

If these cards get pulled, and if PSA is called upon to reimburse the consignor, the bill could be hefty.

I would assume that multiple people would have to review a card like this, given the highest grade it has ever received. I have called PSA to check the status of a submission and told it was waiting for someone else to review it. And this was a card only worth a few hundred bucks.

To let someone inexperienced encase a card with a grade that will instantly make it worth 30-50k, or more, would seem to undermine the credibility of the entire company.

Look at the sub, well one of them anyhow. Not the type to get kicked down to the basement. I would not think. These aren't 80s commons.
PSA Certficiation Check




Cert Year Brand Player Variety Grade

15132902 1910 E93 STANDARD CARAMEL NAP LAJOIE NM-MT 8
15132903 1910 E93 STANDARD CARAMEL FRED CLARKE NM-MT+ 8.5
15132904 1910 E93 STANDARD CARAMEL FRANK CHANCE EX 5
15132905 1910 E93 STANDARD CARAMEL CLARK GRIFFITH NM-MT 8
15132906
15132907
15132908
15132909 1910 E93 STANDARD CARAMEL HONUS WAGNER NM+ 7.5
15132910 1910 E93 STANDARD CARAMEL TY COBB MINT 9
15132911 1910 E93 STANDARD CARAMEL CHRISTY MATHEWSON MINT 9
15132912 1911 M116 SPORTING LIFE JIMMY WALSH GOOD 2
15132913 1948 BOWMAN HERMAN WEHMEIER MINT 9
15132914 1948 BOWMAN JOE PAGE NM-MT+ 8.5
15132915 1948 BOWMAN FRANK SHEA GEM MT 10
15132916 1948 BOWMAN WARREN SPAHN NM 7
15132917
15132918 1948 BOWMAN RALPH KINER NM-MT 8
15132919 1948 BOWMAN NM-MT+ 8.5
15132920

im the wrong kind of doctor!

i'm just talking out loud here...trying to hypothesize what may have occurred.

If it were MY grading company you can be assured the best graders as well as myself would see these uber high grade rarities prior to grading them.

Since I don't own PSA...I cannot begin to guess how they handle their business...but from all of the errors I've seen them make...and other shenanigans...I have no idea what to make of this??

Out of curiosity, what is up with the randomly skipped Certs? Cards that got rejected for some reason?

DJ

None of the plausible explanations look good for them. One, their best graders missed it. Two, it was signed off on by lesser graders. Three, not sure what three is. We won't hear from them of course, so we will just have to speculate.

Any question in anyone's mind that these cards aren't pulled from the auction?

i can't imagine why they'd be pulled?

If these cards were only soaked in water (not a chemical), which alteration is PSA expected to find?

The cards were not simply soaked in water.

No chance they are pulled unless there is more evidence than a few lo-res scans that look similar but not exact. I'm not saying you're right or wrong but it's tough to tell by what's provided (at least on the Cobb).

I don't think there's any chance of them being pulled from the auction.

Just weighing in. I think that the old adage likely applies: If something seems too good to be true, it probably is.

Regards,

Larry

The randomly skipped cert #'s would either be cards that were rejected for some reason or cards that were graded, but later cracked out and the cert's sent back to PSA (e.g. to try for re-submission).

Why would someone trying to get a better grade send in the old cert.? In that case why not just submit for a bump?

Either reason: sending to SGC and want an "unbiased" grade, or sending back to PSA but would rather crack out and try again then send back in for review.

So why return the certs, especially in the second case where it just telegraphs that the card already has been graded whatever it was graded?

To keep the population low. They could wait until after the cards are re-graded to return the certs.

I think that a lot of people view it as proper etiquette to return the certs so that the population report remains closer to accurate. And for lower pop cards, as was stated above, it's important to not add unnecessary tallies to the pop report.

Edited to add: I don't think anyone is sending in the flip with the card to get regraded. You can send the flips back at any time and they'll know to adjust the pop report accordingly.

When were the lower grades offered and what was the final hammer price on them? if anyone has that info, thanks.

I can't see the 'send in the flips' crowd out there. Explain how if this Cobb gets a 9 why anyone would want to send in a flip that was a 6 or an 8. I understand the 'keep the Pop report right' scenario, but isn't it to the high grade crowd's favor to have MORE lower graded cards in the Pop report--right or wrong--than to be sure it's 'right'. The more cards at a lower level, the more impact that saying '1 of 1' or '1 of 2' really gets. I can't believe many people send in flips after cracking and resubmitting.....

Stain removal from cards seems like such a gray area. If you showed me a nice 52 Mantle at auction then showed me an earlier picture of the card that showed tape stains, I'd still have the same level of interest in the card. However, if I saw a picture of the card and saw that it was recolored, re-backed, or had corners or edges rebuilt, then I'd have a problem as it would then be someone else's creation.

If it was a chemical process that could lead to long term damage of the card, I'd be worried. But from what I understand, the process isn't harmful to cards. If someone wants to take the Mantle in this PWCC listing and remove the stains then sell me the card a few grades higher, I truly wouldn't mind.

I understand everyone has their own opinions on this and some view it as taboo since there is no disclosure in most cases. I'm a big fan of 80s Fleer basketball cards. If I open a wax box and decide to grade a few stickers, before I sell do I need to let someone know that these cards came with wax stuck on them and I had to take it off with panty hose?

SCD did a very informative interview with stain remover Dick Towle that sheds some light on the process. It's worth a read: http://www.sportscollectorsdigest.co...res/nerattowle

So fading the colors is not harming the card?

Faded colors and a chemical smell that is distinctive

If water took out caramel stains, bleached Cracker Jacks would not be such an issue.

I read that article years ago but it's great to read it again. To me the biggest problem I have is the non disclosure. If it's not seen as an overall negative, then why don't these prominent dealers say upfront why has been done to their cards? Well we all know the answer to that....M-O-N-E-Y! I might still be ok with buying a card that has had something removed. I just want to know upfront and let me decide.

Im surprised we havent had a restored classification in the hobby yet, much like what has happened with comic books

We do -- "Authentic."

I think that eventually the TPG's will go to such a designation, rather than "altered." With cards which are truly rare and significant, I don't believe a restored card, with the matter disclosed and transparent, will be viewed very negatively (I am probably somewhat biased, as I have at least one potential candidate--a '29 Kashin R316 Mel Ott rookie, which is exceptionally well-centered for the card, but with the lower right corner missing and some damage to the lower right side of the card above that. Was consequently graded SGC poor, of course).

Best to all,

Larry

With comics, they grade the books with a numerical grade, the flip is a different color, and it is designated as restored. The restored versions obviously don't command the same prices as their natural counterparts but it adds another dimension to the hobby. I would imagine the card industry would benefit from it as well.

I'm not sure how it would apply to stain removal if it is indeed undetectable but an intriguing topic nonetheless.

And since when is water not a chemical?

As long as card doctors can make tons of money by getting altered cards into holders without disclosure, I don't see much hope for a restored segment.

i think water would be a compound...no?

as well as a molecule apparently.

We had an extensive discussion of this years ago, perhaps someone with better search skills can find it.

If you go to this link it has an extensive discussion on the topic.

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=185334

By this definition, no.

noun

noun: chemical; plural noun: chemicals; noun: chem.



1.


a compound or substance that has been purified or prepared, especially artificially.

According to a chemistry website I looked at:

Chemical Definition: Everything which has mass is a chemical. Anything consisting of matter is a chemical. Any liquid, solid, gas. Any pure substance; any mixture.

Examples: water, pencil, air, carpet, lightbulb, copper, bubbles, baking soda

Reductio absurdum, or something like that.

I really don't want to argue what is or isn't a chemical, I was just having some fun. I think what most people really mean to say when they argue against the use of chemicals, is that they don't want any man-made solvents used on their cards. Some would take it even further, and say they don't want a card they are buying to be soaked in water either.

reductio ad absurdum :D:D:D

Carry on. :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Ad damnum you.:D

Cards
 

for 22 years many people are pleased with all the work that was done to cards. There are some people that drive around cars with dents and say the car is great, there are people that get the dent out.this is a choice people have like cards- if a water stain can be removed and the card is a 5 before and now gets 8 well--again gonewiththestain.com says it all. Our family enjoys the work and the great people who i work for. Thank you a god bless

No expert but just taking a hard look at the pictures provided. That Wagner 6 does not have the same top border width as the Wagner 9, to my eye. The top border widths look different. It's also worth noting that multiple cards can have the same print dot.

Also, there is a small black dot to the left of the 9 Cobb's head that is not present on the 6 pictured.

Doubtless stain removal happens and gives cards a telltale washed-out look, but it doesn't look to my eyes at least like the cards pictured here are the same, given the Wagner border width and the PD in the Cobb being only on the 9.

I would be pleased too, if altering a card with solvents and whatever else you do enabled me to get it past a grading service and make a nice profit when I sell it without disclosure. Do you think by chance any of your clients are doing that, Dick?

Ah yes I just remembered Dick has acknowledged that one of his "services" is wrinkle removal. Lovely.

#13 Report Post Old 03-24-2014, 05:17 PM
DICKTOWLE DICKTOWLE is offline
member Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 94

Default Gone with the stain

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I would like to make it clear that I don't remove autographs on baseballs, however I now remove wrinkles on cards and faces, if I can help someone, and you know who you are, please contact us